Lee lost by a hair, but only cuase the moderator wasn't being moderator. She forced him to bring conclusions that he didn't believe himself. She was making points for Cenk.
Any time a fiscal conservative starts to make compelling arguments against a 'liberal' they immediately start getting all uptight and start cutting you off and trying to twist words around and what not.
i want to take a boxing glove, glue a steel plate to it, and beat that moderators face in till theres nothing left. She is so disrespectful and rude, she interrupted them (especially Lee) so many times, and acted as one of the debaters the whole time instead of just asking the questions.
You could tell this woman was very one-sided, she kept on interrupting Lee Doren to add in her personal opinion in the form of a question as if he were stupid or something
Tracey, shut up. I was enjoying this debate and you shat all over it with perpetual interruption, let these guys talk, they stay on point and on subject, yet you insist on stagnating any flow of thought. wow. a great opportunity to exchange ideas and engage a young audience in economic issues has been thrown in the trash can, and Tracey, it's your fault.
Moderators always remind me of a monkey's ass...always starting shit between cheeky people! Schoolyard instigator, "So Cenk, Lee says you have dandruff. What'd you like to say to him about it? Oh, did you hear that Lee?" Then "Ah Lee, play nice" 24 MINS of MONKEY SHIT!
At least they're in agreement at the end, Crap's gonna hit the economic fan!
Cenk always get the spotlight time. lee is not given a chance. that bitch with the earphone taking cues from an off camera professional keeps cutting him off with arguments she can't understand herself.
This is an interesting discussion, but Chrystia Freeland needs to shut her mouth. It's hardly a debate if the debaters can't get more than a sentence out.
Im not even a libertarian, Im actually a pretty progressive leaning guy and I have to say this bitch is a fuckin idiot and need to let Lee speak. "So government shouldnt build roads during a recession herp derp?" shut the fuck up.
@SovereignStatesman Really, I had to stop watching much earlier than that, about 2:00, when Lee said businesses aren't hiring because they're 'scared.' I mean, really?
@SovereignStatesman Sure, if you want to tell a moralizing fairy tale, an Aesop's Fable of Austrian make-believe. If you really want to solve a problem, not sell an ideology, than you dig a little deeper than "Da Obama Gunna Kill All Da Job"
@SovereignStatesman Yes, my actual argument is that saying "Businesses aren't hiring because they're afraid of what politicians in Washington are going to do" is some dumb shit. But that's a nice try on the strawman. At least you didn't accuse me of being a Maoist because I don't buy the free market crap. I appreciate the restraint.
@eirefrance Or maybe I've studied business and know the importance of economic-forecasts in management-decisions. They hire when expanding operations due to predicted increased demand, and downsize when expecting a decrease.
@SovereignStatesman What label? You're the one who tried to tell me what I was going to say next.
Look, I understand this part: "They hire when expanding operations due to predicted increased demand, and downsize when expecting a decrease." It's this part: "because they're afraid of what politicians in Washington are going to do" that I have a problem with.
@SovereignStatesman For instance, you could talk about how the high number of applicants means firms aren't as quick to hire because it's a buyers market for hiring right now. Or you could talk about the huge number of construction jobs lost post 2007 and how those workers are flooding a weak job market with low-skilled labor. You could talk about the detrimental effect of long-term unemployment.
@SovereignStatesman I don't know if it was you that removed your comment, but to say "Everyone worked" is so very, very wrong. Do a little research. From Enclosure to the Industrial Revolution, the Temperance Movement, pre-Social Security aging, the invention of the working class. I mean, no, it's not at all true to say "everybody worked." Rather, you worked if you could, until your job cut off your fingers or broke your back, and then you died.
Marx's theories developed due to his ignorance regarding quasi-aristocracy via crony-capitalism, as well as actual feudal aristocracy. It's no wonder he loved Lincoln so much.
"We consider it an earnest of the epoch to come that it fell to the lot of Abraham Lincoln, the single-minded son of the working class, to lead his country through the matchless struggle for the rescue of an enchained race and the reconstruction of a social world."
--Karl Marx's Letter to Lincoln, 1865
Lincoln was a Hamiltonian Whig and dictator who wanted to tax slavery more than ever, he had no intention of ending it.
@SovereignStatesman So if you've read Marx and understand him, what bearing does he have on this discussion? We were talking about govt intervention in the economy. Marx never argued for govt intervention in the economy.
@SovereignStatesman Marx was a historian first. Capital is not a political/economic plan for creating a welfare state, it's a prediction for how capitalism will inevitably lead to the destruction of itself and the state and from that, the communist state will arise.
Then he should know that feudal aristocracy is not a free market.
Clearly he knew nothing.
Popularly sovereign democracy is the true form of "communism," since the state is collectively owned by the people; however they DELEGATE powers to a republican form of government in order to protect private-property rights.
THAT is what we have under the Constitution, however Charlatans usurped it while Marx applauded like a seal.
@SovereignStatesman He didn't call feudal aristocracy a 'free market'? What are you talking about? The term free market is hardly even in Capital. Perhaps you're thinking that he refers to feudalism as a society built entirely on 'property rights'? Which it was. That's not the same as saying it was a free market society. You were only as free as your property allowed.
@SovereignStatesman Property law is not property rights. The entire basis of feudalism was property and people who owned property did trade it all the time. A lord trading his property in exchange for a good or service was pretty much the one and only thing that happened in feudalism.
They DIDN'T trade their land under Feudalism, it wasn't permitted. The nobility HELD the land, and governed it over the residents in exchange for labor in behalf of the estate.
Titles of nobility were inherited in connection with the land.
For Marx, feudalism was the power of the ruling class (the aristocracy) resting on their control of arable land, leading to a class society based upon the exploitation of the peasants who farm these lands, typically under serfdom.
@SovereignStatesman "The nobility HELD the land" Exactly. If you're complaining that there were too few property owners under feudalism, well, damn, that sounds like you're calling for redistribution of wealth.
But all this is pointless, its a redirect from my original point. Marx never described feudalism as a free market. I double-checked and did word search for the term "free market." It comes up once in the entire corpus. Feudalism was property rights taken to its extreme.
If you're so dense as to imagine "property-rights" excluding the right to BUY or SELL it.
Marx believed this was the natural result of free-market capitalism, pointing to feudal aristocracy and industry as "examples."
"If you're complaining that there were too few property owners under feudalism, well, damn, that sounds like you're calling for redistribution of wealth."
No YOU are. I'm saying there was state-control of the economy-- which you're clearly FOR.
@SovereignStatesman Actually, I'm talking about the right to buy or sell property. It was just limited to an extremely small pool of people; the property-owners. Again, they were just a small group of people.
That's a state-controlled economy right there. Power and wealth are inseparable, that's why restoring democratic sovereignty is the REAL key to equality. However simple minds--including Marx-- simply believe we already HAVE it, despite the fact that that the people can't overrule the government; they have to obey it unconditionally, and all change must go through its gatekeepers; i.e. the governed no longer consent to government, but slaves simply choose between masters.
@SovereignStatesman Yeah, it was a state controlled economy. Neither I nor Marx ever suggested it wasn't. That doesn't conflict with being based on property rights. The state was, literally, the property owners.
@SovereignStatesman Now, your second paragraph. That's more like it. You're beginning to see. Marx wasn't an economist arguing for oversight in the derivatives markets. He wanted, and believed he saw coming, a new social order entirely. He was worried about socioeconomic class and individual human dignity, not how the corruption index affects transactional cost or the consumer price index. Maybe your time in business school narrowed your insight into his message?
.I just quoted you a letter in which Marx applauded Lincoln, the biggest Crony-Capitalist puppet of plutocratic oligarchy EVER, thinking he'd bring about equality.
And wealth became more CONCENTRATED than ever in the history of the world, thanks to POWER being more concentrated than ever in history... only a fool would ever separate the two..
@SovereignStatesman Lincoln was the biggest crony-capitalist puppet ever? Dude, how was I supposed to know about your weird conspiracy-ideology-WorldNetDaily ideas about Lincoln when you quoted me that letter? I'm pretty sure Marx wasn't privy to the WorldNetDaily article you got that from, so you can hardly blame him for not having "all the information." If we can call it that?
@SovereignStatesman Which, if we may bring this whole damn thing full circle, is why using the broad term Marxist as an insult to sling at any and every leftist is just stupid. Paul Krugman has no interest in tearing down the state and rebuilding society as a classless one.
@SovereignStatesman And before you go jumping to some crazy conclusion, understanding Marx does not make me a Marxist. Just so we're clear, I don't actually hate capitalism, nor am I an anarcho-collectivist. I just happen to understand that capitalism can coexist with socialism, because frankly, it always has.
Understanding Marx PRECLUDES one being a Marxist.
That's the problem, you only THINK you do. However the labor-theory of value is prima facie absurd to anyone who's ever purchased anything, and bothered to think realize that the decision was based the value of the actual product to the purchaser, not the labor required to produce it. They don't need to know how the sausage is made.
@SovereignStatesman Again, because of your narrow perspective, you're seeing Marx as an economist. The Labor Theory of Value isn't the point of his work; the class struggle between the owners and the exploited is. LTV was one of the tools he used. Uncle Miltie supported a murderous Chilean junta. Being for violent repression of freedom in the political world doesn't mean his economic theories about freedom are false, does it?
@eirefrance Actually, yes, the fact that the labor theory of value, which is the basis of Marx's exploitation theory is long debunked (kind of like the myth of Friedman's support of the Chilean dictatorship) does mean that Marx's nonsense about the owners and a group that is non-existent in this context is long refuted.
Marxism, theoretical communism, anarcho-syndicalism, anarcho-communism, anarcho-collectivism, marxian socialism, libertarian socialism - by whatever name, it's not viable.
How is the working class non-existent? The existence of the working class, especially in Marx's time, wasn't dependent on the LTV for it's existence, just for it's political clout and economic value.
@eirefrance I didn't say the working class was non-existent - it was a group whose living standards increased steadily and dramatically as a direct result of capitalism (yes, Engels, was refuted). It is "the expolited" that was non-existent.
@SovereignStatesman Seriously, I thought you read Marx? Marx wanted to abolish the govt entirely. The state was a tool of the capitalists. It wasn't to be trusted with creating a fair economy. He wanted workers to take ownership of their labor for THEMSELVES, not have the govt do it.
@SovereignStatesman Marx wanted the individual to be part of a collective that held ownership of the means of production. The state refers to an org that represents citizens and makes decisions on their behalf. Marx wanted that middle-man removed so that everyone would work together through direct governance.
@eirefrance "Marx wanted the individual to be part of a collective that held ownership of the means of production"
Yes, but not democracy-- hence he was for benevolent dictatorship that would kill the Golden Goose and then mass-murder the powerless citizens.
Seems that he never bothered to read the bible, specifically I Samuel 8 regarding the same thing happening before-- or Aristotle's "Politics" which similarly canned the notion as Hippodaemian sophism.
@SovereignStatesman The individual can't be an extension of the state if the state doesn't exist, so what you say is nigh upon impossible. I'll get to have a threesome with Jessica Biel and Katrina Bowden before you're right on this. (Oh please, oh please be right about this!!!)
Marx wanted the workers to create a direct democracy, where noone had representation but rather everyone participated equally. Today, this is often called Anarcho-Collectivism.
Yeah, i.e. bullshit utopian fantasy-world denial of actual dictatorship.
Hippodaemus prattled the same nonsense, and Socrates panned him out back during the Helennic era; and only lack of education or intellect would defend such a square wheel.
@SovereignStatesman Also, my noggin is actually kind of big. I mean, not big in the smart way (I haz da smart, by de way) but big in the hats don't always fit me way. Larger than pint-sized, for sure.
@SovereignStatesman Wait, she answered the question Lee specifically asked at 6:27, that is he asked name one shovel ready project and she specifically answered his question with the NJ example? How did you not understand that?
@SovereignStatesman And I was mocking you for being a dumbass who gets his ideology from a talking points memo. How did YOU not understand THAT? I'm not here to quibble, just point my finger and laugh.
This girl is a complete dolt. She fails to understand the most basic concepts and clearly has a bias to the point of being a worthless moderator.
Keynesian theory, as flawed as it is, was based on a closed economic system. That is, a dollar taxed out would have a amplified effect when spent in a sluggish economy. A politicians dream come true, an economic theory that gives them immense power. However, it todays economy money spent is very likely to be spent on goods made in China, ouch.
Wow I haven't even watched this video.. And from the comments I'm not sure I want to. Where can I find Cenk in a real debate other than on TYTInterviews?
I personally think you're a moronic jerkoff Lee, but this interviewer was far from professional. If this is a debate she's the moderator. If this is an interview she's supposed to play the devils advocate. Completely unprofessional.
This chick IS THE WORST HOST EVER! What DrnkMc said, "...Biased and argumentative...she's piling on". We've all dated this type of crazy before...I'm willing to bet she's damaged goods. Typical nut job, ask a question then nay saying and bombarding with question after question never letting you finish a thought or answer...Shut up, shut up, SHUT UP!
No kidding! Shut the fuck up, lady. Would you let Lee get more than 5 words out before you open your skank mouth? Cenk is a complete moron, always has been. His time on NBC really gave him an inflated ego of his intelligence (which he really has none) and his importance (none there either)
Look at her, looking at Cenk every other word she says, using words like "we". You should have called her out, said something like, are you Cenk's other half of his brain, or are you a moderator?
man i hate lee as the next person, but come on when your a moderator you need to shut the fuck up and let them both talk. this is totally a fox news type debate. epic fail!!
I'm only 45 seconds into the video as I type this, and some of the other comments seem to suggest that the moderator is biased... but wow, she has an incredibly soothing voice.
"There's no such thing as a shovel ready project."
"BUT ANSWER THIS! THE NEW JERSEY TUNNEL! IT'S SHOVEL READY AND STARTING!"
"But with any such infrastructure project, you have to have environmental studies and"
"BUT IT'S ALREADY STARTED IT IS SHOVEL READY PROJECT AND NEW JERSEY SIMPLY STOPPED THE PROGRAM BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO SPEND THE MONEY!" (Mouth starting to foam)
"..."
Does that dumb bitch even realize she's proving the guy's point for him? I'll bet not...
was this supposed to be a satire of "leftist media bias"?
the woman can't have really been trying to moderate like that right ? ..... ?
theteckman 10 hours ago
Lee is a better man than I to agree to meet with these two morons.
TrollingConservative 1 day ago
How about beating the moderator over the head with a shovel? Sounds like a shovel-ready job to me.
erwinthehamsandwich 1 day ago
LET LEE SPEAK! Holy shit what an absolutely TERRIBLE interviewer.How unprofessional can someone get?
cbuma 1 day ago
Lee lost by a hair, but only cuase the moderator wasn't being moderator. She forced him to bring conclusions that he didn't believe himself. She was making points for Cenk.
db3991 2 days ago
Lee loses, Cenk wins. How hard is this to understand? It's a shame that this idiot (Lee) believes in his load so much.
ZatDudeOnline 3 days ago
Well at least the interviewer is treating Cenk the same at times at the end.
dubified89 6 days ago
This Cenk is such a joke too with his whole phony alpha male persona.
dubified89 6 days ago
Any time a fiscal conservative starts to make compelling arguments against a 'liberal' they immediately start getting all uptight and start cutting you off and trying to twist words around and what not.
dubified89 6 days ago
OMFG this moderator is going to give me blood pressure problems....
ropisfun 6 days ago
i want to take a boxing glove, glue a steel plate to it, and beat that moderators face in till theres nothing left. She is so disrespectful and rude, she interrupted them (especially Lee) so many times, and acted as one of the debaters the whole time instead of just asking the questions.
ropisfun 6 days ago
i agree more with cenk on pretty much everything, but i even admit that the interviewer constantly interrupted lee and almost never interrupted cenk.
MrZombie747 1 week ago
Wow, this woman was just plain disrespectful.
HadimusRex 1 week ago 3
You could tell this woman was very one-sided, she kept on interrupting Lee Doren to add in her personal opinion in the form of a question as if he were stupid or something
MrJasonekos 1 week ago
I know I'm following every other youtube commenter, but man this host is annoying and stupid.
TheRyman25 1 week ago
Comment removed
ImhoffInstruments 1 week ago
Fuck this woman is annoying.
ImhoffInstruments 1 week ago 3
Boooorrrriiinnggg
Yewon2001 2 weeks ago
Let doren finish 1 fucking sentence ffs!!
Kimogar90 2 weeks ago
And this girl seriously calls herself a journalist?
RappelKarton 2 weeks ago
let lee talk bitch!
Team3starftw 2 weeks ago
no, let me finish, it's your fault
CHEESYhairyGASH 2 weeks ago
Tracey, shut up. I was enjoying this debate and you shat all over it with perpetual interruption, let these guys talk, they stay on point and on subject, yet you insist on stagnating any flow of thought. wow. a great opportunity to exchange ideas and engage a young audience in economic issues has been thrown in the trash can, and Tracey, it's your fault.
CHEESYhairyGASH 2 weeks ago
Comment removed
CHEESYhairyGASH 2 weeks ago
why are they sitting on those chairs? is some one gonna shine their shoes?
CHEESYhairyGASH 2 weeks ago
Moderators always remind me of a monkey's ass...always starting shit between cheeky people! Schoolyard instigator, "So Cenk, Lee says you have dandruff. What'd you like to say to him about it? Oh, did you hear that Lee?" Then "Ah Lee, play nice" 24 MINS of MONKEY SHIT!
At least they're in agreement at the end, Crap's gonna hit the economic fan!
shawso7 3 weeks ago
i kagree with what the interviewer is saying... But shes such a bias fucking bitch.
shit interviewer
aingaran2003 3 weeks ago
Tracey Freeland is the most annoying and rude moderator I've ever seen!
steaditex 3 weeks ago
Is she fucking stupid?
She thinks she is smart as fuck and that Lee is a kid.
She's repeating the same question all the time and interrupts 24/7
Alecalisk 3 weeks ago
At some points, you almost completely forget that Lee is even there, and when he does speak, he's quickly shut down by the "moderator".
Fucking annoying, and I see people praise Cenk because of this video all the time, which really makes me angry.
Falstad007 3 weeks ago
Let Lee make his point stop interrupting Chrystia! so annoying!
bc122333 4 weeks ago
man that bitch had her ego flared up and on overdrive. she obviously felt threatened by lee.
epshot 1 month ago
Cenk always get the spotlight time. lee is not given a chance. that bitch with the earphone taking cues from an off camera professional keeps cutting him off with arguments she can't understand herself.
epshot 1 month ago
Why am i tryping this, she cant hear me :(
BUKETMAN92 1 month ago
Stop talking you fucking bitch! Jesus fucking christ!
BUKETMAN92 1 month ago
STOP INTERUPTING! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!
BUKETMAN92 1 month ago
Two versus one.
butteryblue 1 month ago
shes so biased, fuck she pisses me off so MUCH
acau93 1 month ago
stupid, annoying, retarded interviewer. Let Lee talk at 6:15, you dumb broad.
DraughtOfPeace 1 month ago
wow shes a fucking retard those tits need to have some slobber and semen on em
AlbinoGhandi 1 month ago
This is an interesting discussion, but Chrystia Freeland needs to shut her mouth. It's hardly a debate if the debaters can't get more than a sentence out.
Deathrune14 1 month ago
Shut up moderator, you aren't the debaters.
j03y2fly 1 month ago 24
Annoying interviewer
FrankiePoker 1 month ago 16
I love it, Cenk says "the question is, how do we spend our money together?"
Sounds like the fat pig is offering to go halfsies on a pizza with the little twerp ROTFLMAO!
(Cenk takes one tiny little slice-- then gives it to Lee, and takes the rest for himself LOL)
SovereignStatesman 1 month ago
WHY did Lee agree to have Cenk's whore as moderator? This isn't a debate, it's a Marxist gang-rape.
Sheesh.
SovereignStatesman 1 month ago
Im not even a libertarian, Im actually a pretty progressive leaning guy and I have to say this bitch is a fuckin idiot and need to let Lee speak. "So government shouldnt build roads during a recession herp derp?" shut the fuck up.
jerzy862 1 month ago
I detest this moderator
jerzy862 1 month ago
Thumbs up if you had to stop watching before me at 6:27
I just couldn't take it anymore, with Stenk and the bitch blathering on about "stimulus" and "shovel-ready projects"
That the FUCK are they smoking, or are they just getting high on the smell of their own farts?
SovereignStatesman 1 month ago
@SovereignStatesman Really, I had to stop watching much earlier than that, about 2:00, when Lee said businesses aren't hiring because they're 'scared.' I mean, really?
eirefrance 1 month ago
@eirefrance
Uh, YEAH, facing a bad economy WOULD tend to put a freeze on hiring, and put an emphasis on downsizing to face a lower demand.
What part of that escapes your pint-sized noggin?
SovereignStatesman 1 month ago
@SovereignStatesman Sure, if you want to tell a moralizing fairy tale, an Aesop's Fable of Austrian make-believe. If you really want to solve a problem, not sell an ideology, than you dig a little deeper than "Da Obama Gunna Kill All Da Job"
eirefrance 1 month ago
@eirefrance
Do you have an actual argument?
Next you'll say that all modern technology was created by central planning rather than free-market entrepreneurs like Ford, Bell, Edison and Gates.
SovereignStatesman 1 month ago
@SovereignStatesman Yes, my actual argument is that saying "Businesses aren't hiring because they're afraid of what politicians in Washington are going to do" is some dumb shit. But that's a nice try on the strawman. At least you didn't accuse me of being a Maoist because I don't buy the free market crap. I appreciate the restraint.
eirefrance 1 month ago
@eirefrance Or maybe I've studied business and know the importance of economic-forecasts in management-decisions. They hire when expanding operations due to predicted increased demand, and downsize when expecting a decrease.
You can keep your labels.
SovereignStatesman 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@SovereignStatesman What label? You're the one who tried to tell me what I was going to say next.
Look, I understand this part: "They hire when expanding operations due to predicted increased demand, and downsize when expecting a decrease." It's this part: "because they're afraid of what politicians in Washington are going to do" that I have a problem with.
eirefrance 1 month ago
@SovereignStatesman For instance, you could talk about how the high number of applicants means firms aren't as quick to hire because it's a buyers market for hiring right now. Or you could talk about the huge number of construction jobs lost post 2007 and how those workers are flooding a weak job market with low-skilled labor. You could talk about the detrimental effect of long-term unemployment.
eirefrance 1 month ago
@eirefrance
What's the difference, government-intervention was the cause.
SovereignStatesman 1 month ago
@SovereignStatesman So, before govt intervention in the economy, we never had unemployment, I imagine.
eirefrance 1 month ago
Comment removed
SovereignStatesman 1 month ago
@SovereignStatesman I don't know if it was you that removed your comment, but to say "Everyone worked" is so very, very wrong. Do a little research. From Enclosure to the Industrial Revolution, the Temperance Movement, pre-Social Security aging, the invention of the working class. I mean, no, it's not at all true to say "everybody worked." Rather, you worked if you could, until your job cut off your fingers or broke your back, and then you died.
eirefrance 1 month ago
@eirefrance
Marx's theories developed due to his ignorance regarding quasi-aristocracy via crony-capitalism, as well as actual feudal aristocracy. It's no wonder he loved Lincoln so much.
SovereignStatesman 1 month ago
@SovereignStatesman Have you ever read Marx?
eirefrance 1 month ago
@eirefrance
Yes, and unlike you I UNDERSTAND Marx.
"We consider it an earnest of the epoch to come that it fell to the lot of Abraham Lincoln, the single-minded son of the working class, to lead his country through the matchless struggle for the rescue of an enchained race and the reconstruction of a social world."
--Karl Marx's Letter to Lincoln, 1865
Lincoln was a Hamiltonian Whig and dictator who wanted to tax slavery more than ever, he had no intention of ending it.
SovereignStatesman 1 month ago
@SovereignStatesman So if you've read Marx and understand him, what bearing does he have on this discussion? We were talking about govt intervention in the economy. Marx never argued for govt intervention in the economy.
eirefrance 1 month ago
@eirefrance
"Marx never argued for govt intervention in the economy."
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
SovereignStatesman 1 month ago
@SovereignStatesman Yup, that's about what I thought.
eirefrance 1 month ago
@eirefrance
Then it couldn't be sound economic science.
SovereignStatesman 1 month ago
@SovereignStatesman Marx was a historian first. Capital is not a political/economic plan for creating a welfare state, it's a prediction for how capitalism will inevitably lead to the destruction of itself and the state and from that, the communist state will arise.
eirefrance 1 month ago
@eirefrance
And THEN the welfare-state.
"Marx was a historian first."
Then he should know that feudal aristocracy is not a free market.
Clearly he knew nothing.
Popularly sovereign democracy is the true form of "communism," since the state is collectively owned by the people; however they DELEGATE powers to a republican form of government in order to protect private-property rights.
THAT is what we have under the Constitution, however Charlatans usurped it while Marx applauded like a seal.
SovereignStatesman 1 month ago
@SovereignStatesman He didn't call feudal aristocracy a 'free market'? What are you talking about? The term free market is hardly even in Capital. Perhaps you're thinking that he refers to feudalism as a society built entirely on 'property rights'? Which it was. That's not the same as saying it was a free market society. You were only as free as your property allowed.
eirefrance 1 month ago
@eirefrance
I see you haven't studied property-law, which is an entirely different branch than simple contract-law.
No, feudalism was AGAINST property-rights ala the right to trade land freely.
Feudalism was based on the fief-system, which still infests our system of property-law via the "Fee Simple" qualifier vs. simple contract.
That's why property-law is an entire branch of legislation that's different from contract-law, without reason or cause; and it's needless harassment.
SovereignStatesman 1 month ago
@SovereignStatesman Property law is not property rights. The entire basis of feudalism was property and people who owned property did trade it all the time. A lord trading his property in exchange for a good or service was pretty much the one and only thing that happened in feudalism.
eirefrance 1 month ago
@eirefrance
They DIDN'T trade their land under Feudalism, it wasn't permitted. The nobility HELD the land, and governed it over the residents in exchange for labor in behalf of the estate.
Titles of nobility were inherited in connection with the land.
For Marx, feudalism was the power of the ruling class (the aristocracy) resting on their control of arable land, leading to a class society based upon the exploitation of the peasants who farm these lands, typically under serfdom.
SovereignStatesman 1 month ago
@SovereignStatesman "The nobility HELD the land" Exactly. If you're complaining that there were too few property owners under feudalism, well, damn, that sounds like you're calling for redistribution of wealth.
But all this is pointless, its a redirect from my original point. Marx never described feudalism as a free market. I double-checked and did word search for the term "free market." It comes up once in the entire corpus. Feudalism was property rights taken to its extreme.
eirefrance 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@eirefrance
If you're so dense as to imagine "property-rights" excluding the right to BUY or SELL it.
Marx believed this was the natural result of free-market capitalism, pointing to feudal aristocracy and industry as "examples."
"If you're complaining that there were too few property owners under feudalism, well, damn, that sounds like you're calling for redistribution of wealth."
No YOU are. I'm saying there was state-control of the economy-- which you're clearly FOR.
SovereignStatesman 1 month ago
@SovereignStatesman Actually, I'm talking about the right to buy or sell property. It was just limited to an extremely small pool of people; the property-owners. Again, they were just a small group of people.
eirefrance 1 month ago
@eirefrance
That's a state-controlled economy right there. Power and wealth are inseparable, that's why restoring democratic sovereignty is the REAL key to equality. However simple minds--including Marx-- simply believe we already HAVE it, despite the fact that that the people can't overrule the government; they have to obey it unconditionally, and all change must go through its gatekeepers; i.e. the governed no longer consent to government, but slaves simply choose between masters.
SovereignStatesman 1 month ago
@SovereignStatesman Yeah, it was a state controlled economy. Neither I nor Marx ever suggested it wasn't. That doesn't conflict with being based on property rights. The state was, literally, the property owners.
eirefrance 1 month ago
@SovereignStatesman Now, your second paragraph. That's more like it. You're beginning to see. Marx wasn't an economist arguing for oversight in the derivatives markets. He wanted, and believed he saw coming, a new social order entirely. He was worried about socioeconomic class and individual human dignity, not how the corruption index affects transactional cost or the consumer price index. Maybe your time in business school narrowed your insight into his message?
eirefrance 1 month ago
@eirefrance
Seems you have your own version.
.I just quoted you a letter in which Marx applauded Lincoln, the biggest Crony-Capitalist puppet of plutocratic oligarchy EVER, thinking he'd bring about equality.
And wealth became more CONCENTRATED than ever in the history of the world, thanks to POWER being more concentrated than ever in history... only a fool would ever separate the two..
But you do.... and thus you're a fool.
SovereignStatesman 1 month ago
@SovereignStatesman Lincoln was the biggest crony-capitalist puppet ever? Dude, how was I supposed to know about your weird conspiracy-ideology-WorldNetDaily ideas about Lincoln when you quoted me that letter? I'm pretty sure Marx wasn't privy to the WorldNetDaily article you got that from, so you can hardly blame him for not having "all the information." If we can call it that?
eirefrance 1 month ago
@SovereignStatesman Which, if we may bring this whole damn thing full circle, is why using the broad term Marxist as an insult to sling at any and every leftist is just stupid. Paul Krugman has no interest in tearing down the state and rebuilding society as a classless one.
eirefrance 1 month ago
@eirefrance
Because he ALREADY has no class.
SovereignStatesman 1 month ago
@SovereignStatesman Bah da boom, ba da bing!!! Someone get this man a glass o' water, he's on FIRE!!!!!!!!!!
eirefrance 1 month ago
@SovereignStatesman And before you go jumping to some crazy conclusion, understanding Marx does not make me a Marxist. Just so we're clear, I don't actually hate capitalism, nor am I an anarcho-collectivist. I just happen to understand that capitalism can coexist with socialism, because frankly, it always has.
eirefrance 1 month ago
@eirefrance
Understanding Marx PRECLUDES one being a Marxist.
That's the problem, you only THINK you do. However the labor-theory of value is prima facie absurd to anyone who's ever purchased anything, and bothered to think realize that the decision was based the value of the actual product to the purchaser, not the labor required to produce it. They don't need to know how the sausage is made.
SovereignStatesman 1 month ago
@SovereignStatesman Again, because of your narrow perspective, you're seeing Marx as an economist. The Labor Theory of Value isn't the point of his work; the class struggle between the owners and the exploited is. LTV was one of the tools he used. Uncle Miltie supported a murderous Chilean junta. Being for violent repression of freedom in the political world doesn't mean his economic theories about freedom are false, does it?
eirefrance 1 month ago
@eirefrance Actually, yes, the fact that the labor theory of value, which is the basis of Marx's exploitation theory is long debunked (kind of like the myth of Friedman's support of the Chilean dictatorship) does mean that Marx's nonsense about the owners and a group that is non-existent in this context is long refuted.
Marxism, theoretical communism, anarcho-syndicalism, anarcho-communism, anarcho-collectivism, marxian socialism, libertarian socialism - by whatever name, it's not viable.
FletchforFreedom 1 month ago
@FletchforFreedom "a group that is non-existent in this context"
How is the working class non-existent? The existence of the working class, especially in Marx's time, wasn't dependent on the LTV for it's existence, just for it's political clout and economic value.
eirefrance 1 month ago
@eirefrance I didn't say the working class was non-existent - it was a group whose living standards increased steadily and dramatically as a direct result of capitalism (yes, Engels, was refuted). It is "the expolited" that was non-existent.
FletchforFreedom 1 month ago
@SovereignStatesman Seriously, I thought you read Marx? Marx wanted to abolish the govt entirely. The state was a tool of the capitalists. It wasn't to be trusted with creating a fair economy. He wanted workers to take ownership of their labor for THEMSELVES, not have the govt do it.
eirefrance 1 month ago
@eirefrance
No, Marx wanted the individual to be an extension of the state, rather than vice-versa ala democracy.
As for capitalism, Marx was so dense that he thought feudal aristocracy was a free market, and that crony-capitalism was lassez-faire.
SovereignStatesman 1 month ago
@SovereignStatesman Marx wanted the individual to be part of a collective that held ownership of the means of production. The state refers to an org that represents citizens and makes decisions on their behalf. Marx wanted that middle-man removed so that everyone would work together through direct governance.
eirefrance 1 month ago
@eirefrance
I.e. benevolent dictatorship.
SovereignStatesman 1 month ago
@eirefrance "Marx wanted the individual to be part of a collective that held ownership of the means of production"
Yes, but not democracy-- hence he was for benevolent dictatorship that would kill the Golden Goose and then mass-murder the powerless citizens.
Seems that he never bothered to read the bible, specifically I Samuel 8 regarding the same thing happening before-- or Aristotle's "Politics" which similarly canned the notion as Hippodaemian sophism.
.
.
SovereignStatesman 1 month ago
@SovereignStatesman The individual can't be an extension of the state if the state doesn't exist, so what you say is nigh upon impossible. I'll get to have a threesome with Jessica Biel and Katrina Bowden before you're right on this. (Oh please, oh please be right about this!!!)
Marx wanted the workers to create a direct democracy, where noone had representation but rather everyone participated equally. Today, this is often called Anarcho-Collectivism.
eirefrance 1 month ago
@eirefrance
Yeah, i.e. bullshit utopian fantasy-world denial of actual dictatorship.
Hippodaemus prattled the same nonsense, and Socrates panned him out back during the Helennic era; and only lack of education or intellect would defend such a square wheel.
SovereignStatesman 1 month ago
@SovereignStatesman "Yeah, i.e. bullshit utopian fantasy-world denial of actual dictatorship."
Which is why I'm not a Marxist. But you should understand what it is you disagree with, right?
eirefrance 1 month ago
@eirefrance
Nope, truth is a defense of itself.
SovereignStatesman 1 month ago
@SovereignStatesman Also, my noggin is actually kind of big. I mean, not big in the smart way (I haz da smart, by de way) but big in the hats don't always fit me way. Larger than pint-sized, for sure.
eirefrance 1 month ago
@eirefrance
Not big on figures of speech either.
SovereignStatesman 1 month ago
@SovereignStatesman Wait, she answered the question Lee specifically asked at 6:27, that is he asked name one shovel ready project and she specifically answered his question with the NJ example? How did you not understand that?
eirefrance 1 month ago
@eirefrance
I explained that I STOPPED watching at 6:27 because I couldn't stand the bullshit anymore. How did YOU not understand THAT?
And I have no intention of quibbling over "shovel-ready projects," so just shove it.
The government doesn't need to be in the highway-business, they do enough of that already ala highway ROBBERY.
How did you not understand that?
SovereignStatesman 1 month ago
@SovereignStatesman And I was mocking you for being a dumbass who gets his ideology from a talking points memo. How did YOU not understand THAT? I'm not here to quibble, just point my finger and laugh.
eirefrance 1 month ago
Comment removed
SovereignStatesman 1 month ago
HANG HERRRRRRRRRR
EndureFocusEngageDie 1 month ago
WOW! Uygur is a moron, this twit is even more retarded then Uygur. I wish Lee would have gone off but glad he didn't.
The best part was at 19:00 when the screen went blue and the audio went to shit. This is what these two retards really sound like.
Bofvonhookstinar 2 months ago
@Bofvonhookstinar
Stenk is a stupid lard-bucket, I can't believe that Lee is letting them talk this moronic bullshit about "stimulating the economy" etc.
Apparently Lee isn't a quick thinker.
SovereignStatesman 1 month ago
She is soo annoying
aasilchatha 2 months ago
She an interviewer? She needs to give them more time to finish there points. She just interrupts both of them especially.Lee Doren.
kaikincaid96 2 months ago
Lee is one of the calmest and most controlled people I've seen, most people would have gone crazy if they were subjected to that women.
tboladave 2 months ago
fucking awful moderator
FSFchannel 2 months ago
It's like as soon as lee even begins to make a point they jump to a new topic.
CNSTCasualty 2 months ago
Thumbs down b/c the debate moderator was so biased. Additionally, her constant jumping in into the debate was annoying, to say the least.
tygerk 2 months ago
Lee wins yet again
xXKayn3Xx 2 months ago
cenk n the chick are clueless. Its an embarrassment that cenk is on to discuss economics when he didn't know even the basics of economics.
shaqdaddy11 2 months ago
omg how freaking stupid is this dingbat. She has no clue about basic economic ideas. Its like talking to a child who believes 2+2 =5.
shaqdaddy11 2 months ago
bitch wont stop talking
THEJUDGE533 2 months ago
2v1, lee still wins
LasagnaIsGood 2 months ago
did she say they were a bit more feisty? what kinda debates are they used too?
spaik007 3 months ago
man i never knew this happened, and the host here really speaks like she is being there on gunpoint.
She is hot
spaik007 3 months ago
You know the moderator is biased when she says "we have you on this one," when she interrupts Lee's argument.
LaramieRam 3 months ago 2
@oneirishpoet Name calling and insulting another's intellect..... you're following the format perfectly.
jorgekluney 3 months ago
Who's the yippy broad that is supposed to be unbiased but always bickers with Lee?
jorgekluney 3 months ago
This girl is a complete dolt. She fails to understand the most basic concepts and clearly has a bias to the point of being a worthless moderator.
Keynesian theory, as flawed as it is, was based on a closed economic system. That is, a dollar taxed out would have a amplified effect when spent in a sluggish economy. A politicians dream come true, an economic theory that gives them immense power. However, it todays economy money spent is very likely to be spent on goods made in China, ouch.
hotjamsm07 3 months ago
That girl is the worst. Holy shit.
KCatalano88 3 months ago
9-9-9!
anonymousguitarguy 3 months ago
Wow I haven't even watched this video.. And from the comments I'm not sure I want to. Where can I find Cenk in a real debate other than on TYTInterviews?
Lilsoorms 3 months ago
moderator suck balls.
sparbaroku 3 months ago
This fucking bitch
DyeTyme 3 months ago
Damn that moderator is such a hack!
default013 3 months ago
That was the first time I have heard anyone argue that tax cuts caused the recession.
damiaxxx 3 months ago
I personally think you're a moronic jerkoff Lee, but this interviewer was far from professional. If this is a debate she's the moderator. If this is an interview she's supposed to play the devils advocate. Completely unprofessional.
TheRipcity22 3 months ago 3
This is one dumb bitch.... who just doesn't shut up.
AZsportshut 3 months ago
Can this lady please shut up for 5 seconds and let the people who know what they're talking about talk?
UpwardBound5656 4 months ago 4
@UpwardBound5656
She can't even dress properly or comb her hair and smarten herself up, how's she gonna do that?
She's clearly ADHD.... on steroids.
SovereignStatesman 1 month ago
I hate how she keeps interrupting you Lee, i would have lost my cool if i were you, so props to you.
checaroo 4 months ago
@justonefirefly1 back it up?
checaroo 4 months ago
the bitch is all coked up.
ozmucur 4 months ago
I support Cenk and the progressive cause, but this lady is really shutting Lee out. And I am the last person you would see defending Lee.
This lady needs to STFU for a second.
BillOralRushRimjob 4 months ago
@BillOralRushRimjob Wow, she is cutting Cenk off, too, now. I think we can all agree here, liberal and conservative, that this lady is a bitch.
BillOralRushRimjob 4 months ago
no Obama even said the jobs were not shovel ready, how right was this kid
UpalKashey 4 months ago
no Obama even said the jobs were not shovel ready
UpalKashey 4 months ago
wtf is wrong with lady, she has no decency, you need to keep quite
there are no shovel ready jobs
UpalKashey 4 months ago
Reuters was aligned with Cenk.
MrApplewine 4 months ago
This chick IS THE WORST HOST EVER! What DrnkMc said, "...Biased and argumentative...she's piling on". We've all dated this type of crazy before...I'm willing to bet she's damaged goods. Typical nut job, ask a question then nay saying and bombarding with question after question never letting you finish a thought or answer...Shut up, shut up, SHUT UP!
dustyrhoads1 4 months ago
So thats what happen to Crystal Bernard after Wings.
gypsyfrizz 4 months ago
Im surprised Frink didn't lose it. They never let him finish a sentence.
gypsyfrizz 4 months ago
More like Lee Doren + Cenk Uygur VS Freeland
AEgamesFtw 4 months ago
The woman ruined this argument, and I'm a leftist. Lee Doren made it clear what his point was and she kept saying the same dumb questions.
AEgamesFtw 4 months ago
I can't make up my mind if Cenk Uygur is dumber than he is fat, or fatter than he is dumb.
FartyFace 4 months ago
do objective moderators exist anymore?
doctaedwards 4 months ago
Clear win for Lee. Cenk is such a douche. I can't believe what I just heard. No matter what the tax rate, we're working.
Although I do got to say, Lee. You need to be more aggressive, brother. Especially when Cenk's pompous ass is your competition.
bweazel 4 months ago
No kidding! Shut the fuck up, lady. Would you let Lee get more than 5 words out before you open your skank mouth? Cenk is a complete moron, always has been. His time on NBC really gave him an inflated ego of his intelligence (which he really has none) and his importance (none there either)
Look at her, looking at Cenk every other word she says, using words like "we". You should have called her out, said something like, are you Cenk's other half of his brain, or are you a moderator?
bweazel 4 months ago
I wish she would just ask the question then shut the fuck up
danbuck333 4 months ago
i can't watch it anymore. not a proper debate!
halflifeproductionz 4 months ago
man i hate lee as the next person, but come on when your a moderator you need to shut the fuck up and let them both talk. this is totally a fox news type debate. epic fail!!
halflifeproductionz 4 months ago
It's like Lee is too polite to debate with them, they have no problem interupting and being impolite.
xxgg55 4 months ago
I'm only 45 seconds into the video as I type this, and some of the other comments seem to suggest that the moderator is biased... but wow, she has an incredibly soothing voice.
IJUSTLOVETURTLES 4 months ago
@IJUSTLOVETURTLES soothing like nails down a chalk board....fucking annoying!
danbuck333 4 months ago
Will somebody shut this condescending bitch up? Jesus christ... I don't like Lee Doren's positions, but she's just disrespectful.
platostotle86 5 months ago 2
Would have been better if the debate was Lee and Cenk head to head no moderator.
Shonenut213 5 months ago
"There's no such thing as a shovel ready project."
"BUT ANSWER THIS! THE NEW JERSEY TUNNEL! IT'S SHOVEL READY AND STARTING!"
"But with any such infrastructure project, you have to have environmental studies and"
"BUT IT'S ALREADY STARTED IT IS SHOVEL READY PROJECT AND NEW JERSEY SIMPLY STOPPED THE PROGRAM BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO SPEND THE MONEY!" (Mouth starting to foam)
"..."
Does that dumb bitch even realize she's proving the guy's point for him? I'll bet not...
matchesburn 5 months ago 2
Good grief, could she be any more biased and argumentative? She's not moderating, she's piling on.
She needs to get her twat outta Cenks mouth so he can speak for himself.
DrnknMc 5 months ago 39
@DrnknMc well said my friend
lareneg72 3 months ago
My god. That moderator should be tarred and feathered.
Liberum69 5 months ago 16
God I hate the moderator.
Keeban3 5 months ago 3
lee, you would make a good talking head but i dont think you could possibly believe all of the BS you spew, TYT / Liberviewer FTL
inadaizz 5 months ago
Cenk FTW
inadaizz 5 months ago