Phoenix Gay Press Conf. Opposing "Love Won Out" - PART 1

[CanadianQueer]

"Love won out"? What, so if you're gay, you can't love or receive love?

[jambalaya54321]

It's people like this that give me a shred of hope for the world. I kind of want to hug them all.

[BeatBuddy]

Drilling into the heads of gay people that they're disturbed, abnormal, sick, or disordered effects the way they see and carry themselves. They behave unnaturally, in ways that are not spontaneous, since they try to fit into the "normal" mold. They become self-conscious with their relationships and acquaintances. Every new person they meet is with anxiety. It implies that gays are dysfunctional or malfunctional. In what sense may I ask?

[rextrek]

If that's the case...why don't they make "EX-HETERO"...for those who want to be gay....why, cause you either are Gay or you are NOT....there's nothing to change one way or the other!

[Davmy1000]

People who actually understand and know Exodus realize that they aren't an organization built to bring harm to the gay community. Being a member of that community myself, I appreciate the loving approach they've taken towards GLBT. Its just as wrong for people to be persecuted, because they DO believe change is possible, as those who wish to remain who they believe they really are. Thank you Exodus for teaching Christians to love the gay community.

[BeatBuddy]

There are no ex-gays, period. Even the founders of Exodus International, Michael Bussee and Gary Cooper, admonished its members to forget everything they previously said and that they never converted a single soul. I have a tract where the Kinsey Institute investigated these "ex-gays". They found not one satisfactory case. One guy is even on record as saying, "I'm cured, I don't think of men anymore, except when I masturbate."

[Davmy1000]

I'm sorry to dissappoint you, but I know alot of "straight" guys who've had homosexual thoughts. In fact, it is documented that every guy at one point or another has had these thoughts or were just curious. Does this make them gay? Gay's just a word- if sex defines us then every guy out there is gay (Just with varying degrees) I don't know personally if people can truly "change", but if people want to try... let them!

[BeatBuddy]

There is only one basic reason why gays want to change...fear. It's derived from the pressures of peripheral sources. It's not gays who define themselves through sex; the prejudiced culture does that. I have read up on Exodus and how they indoctrinate vulnerable and weak people with vicious lies. The ex-gay movement thrives on exacerbating guilt and they never state that people can live fulfilling lives as homosexuals. Without the social stigma, the wish to change would make no sense.

[BeatBuddy]

It seems ridiculous to compartmentalize sexuality, but that's what Kinsey did. Homosexuality and heterosexuality are not necessarily exclusive, there is every degree in between. Can you think of any reason why gays would want to change other than self-hate? People have the right to celebrate and love themselves. That is why reparative therapy should be exposed for what it really is.

[BeatBuddy]

I am an atheist, so I'll use Satan as a metaphor. His schemes are most effective when he has a halo over his head. The smiling bigot has a better chance of getting things done his way. What you are talking about is not love; it's psuedo love. I have read accounts of how ugly Christians get when they learn that an "ex-gay" reverts back to being homosexual.

[Davmy1000]

Wow- its interesting that you attack all Christians when as you see from this video there are Christians who are empowering the movement AGAINST Exodus International. Who's stereotyping now?

[BeatBuddy]

I meant to say fundy Christians, the asshole branch of Christianity.

[Davmy1000]

Well then, if you want to get into linguistics then what are "fundy" Christians? Are they the ones that believe in what Bible writes or the ones that just believe that Jesus taught love and that's all there is to it? There's a powerful segregation between these two. Its important to use words carefully otherwise it appears as if you don't know what you're talking about.

[BeatBuddy]

Fundy Christians are brainless automatons who say the Bible is inerrant and literally true. Yeah, right, and the emperor has nice new clothes. As for the definition of fundy as in the fundamentals, meaning the axioms of Jesus, some of the things he said are quite ludicrous.

[Davmy1000]

Oh man. I feel the love flowing from you. Why can't Christians have that same wonderful tolerance as you... You speak of acceptance but its obviously one way for you Buddy.

[BeatBuddy]

I knew this projection of yours would come around sooner or later. It's central to people like you. If Jesus had flaws, who is to thank for it? And you're right about one thing, Christians SHOULD be as tolerant as I am. As a long standing member of the American Civil Liberties Union, no one can call me intolerant.

[Davmy1000]

Make sure you clarify. What you really mean by tolerance is that you don't care if people accept everyone just the those who YOU believe are important. And open mindedness is that at all... its you wanting people to believe what you believe and if they don't they're "Brainless". So much for that theory of yours.

[BeatBuddy]

No, it's not that people disagree with me. It's HOW they disagree. They put a concerted effort into NOT changing their minds. It's when contrary evidence and facts don't make a dent. I'm tolerant, but it doesn't mean I accept what they stand for. Unlike arch-conservatives, I defend the rights of people whom I detest the most. I fully accept homosexuality, but that's not the same as accepting what any individual homosexual believes in or stands for.

[daysteppin]

i understand your motivations for this video, and your others, but i fear people getting rigid in any belief - whether it's "you can change being gay" or "you can't change being gay". some people might really be willing to go through the struggle of changing where they are sexually. not me. all that aside, there are surely some bad things going on in 99.99% of those "change" organizations. thanx for bringing it out.

[BeatBuddy]

This insistence that gays can't change is not based on rigid belief. The rigidity lies with those who harbor reparative therapy. Homosexuality is an orientation, a natural given. That's like calling me rigid for saying that people can't change race. If I said I used to be French but decided to give it up, you wouldn't consider yourself rigid for thinking I was full of bull.

[daysteppin]

race(skin color) is actually quite a lot different than sexual orientation. I know people that after living a gay lifestyle have gotten married, had kids and are happy and successful. All i'm saying is that identifying yourself as gay or straight doesn't mean that you can't change that later.

[BeatBuddy]

Wrong. Homosexuality is an immutable characteristic. The changing of lifestyle does not indicate a change in sexual orientation. I know several men who have been married for at least 15 years and they're just as queer as they ever were.

[daysteppin]

it's not smart to completely close yourself off from that idea. wheres the open mind in such a thought? some of us like beautiful people period, no mater what race or gender they are. what do you say about that? i don't disagree with you that rigidity lies with the "reparative therapy guys", but it's usually easier to recognize the problems with the other than oneself.

[BeatBuddy]

The issue here is not really the right to choose. It's about manipulation of the weak through the exploitation of internalized guilt and shame. A huge number of these patients are forced into it by their parents. If homosexuality intrinsically caused suffering, I would condone therapy, but this is not the case. The issue is self-hate, which this therapy intensifies.

[daysteppin]

I here you load and clear. no disputing that. i'm all against the manipulation to. i guess everything has to change by a war these days. i wish there was to get the point across without completely seperating ourself on these different views.

[BeatBuddy]

The problem is that reparative therapy is not just another point of view. Whereas everyone has the right in a free society to hold false opinions, there is no right to promote an outright lie. Like creationism, that's exactly what reparative therapy is. A lie is not the same thing as an erroneous view. Reparative therapy must be grinded into dust.

[daysteppin]

"reparative therapy is not just another point of view." bullshit! it may not be valid in your eyes(mine too), but it is in their eyes. and if we can't start from that point and move forward, you mize well abandon ship. you can't just tell the other side that there point is invalid, how would you most likely respond with that.

[BeatBuddy]

If you told me that your farts never stink, I would invalidate your claim. I'll say it loud and clear, their point is invalid.

[daysteppin]

Question is: HOW ARE WE GOING TO BRING A TRUE END TO THE MANIPULATION? by attacking or....where is the forum where this can be discussed by both sides? which side has provided that forum if any, that has brought change?

[BeatBuddy]

How to end the manipulation? That's easy to answer. They should be arrested, tried, and imprisoned for willfull malpractice.