1 of 3: The Pre-Religion, and Pre-Human, Roots of Morality

[billygundum]

A link to that ape rescue would make this video more, idk, marketable.

[ToddAllenGates]

@billygundum

> A link to that ape rescue would make this video more, idk, marketable.

For some reason, the links to that video never last very long -- they get outdated quickly as users take down the video. Not sure why. Anyway, do a google search on the gorilla's name--Binti Jua--and you'll get lots of hits on the story.

[ShalomYal]

I'm soooo excited to find your videos. I wish I could "hang" with you and talk over a coffee and/or a good beer

[ToddAllenGates]

@ShalomYal

> I'm soooo excited to find your videos.

TOO kind -- thank you!

> I wish I could "hang" with you and talk over a coffee and/or a good beer

Virtual conversations via YouTube comments are the next best thing!

[SirWinstonChurchill]

I'm an agent of chaos...

Sowing seeds of doubt with logic will destroy the hackneyed tenets you cling to, such as your hypocritical christian philosophy of "spread the other cheek."

You are nothing but a pathetic christian in reverse with the very same hackneyed tenets. Your phantasmagoric ideals are my enemy more than you are.

You are what Nietzsche called an "underhanded christian" in Twilight of the Idols.

[SirWinstonChurchill]

@ElProximo

Since such an enlightened person is freed from the notion of some "god" they are also free to make the assumption (in their deluded minds) they have a sanctified right to pass the collection plate at gunpoint for their gods of communism (themselves).

"I'm a man of simple tastes. The things I like are cheap... like gunpowder and GASOLINE..." (A. Joker)

[SirWinstonChurchill]

Your morals, your code is a bad joke, dropped at the first sign of trouble. You're only as good as the world allows you to be. They'll show you, when the chips are down, these civilized people, they'll eat each other.

You see, I'm not a monster, I'm just ahead of the curve. You have all these rules and you think they'll save you. The only way sensible way to live in this world is without rules.

I'm an agent of chaos, and you know what they say about chaos; it's the only thing that is fair.

[ToddAllenGates]

@ElProximo

> Not that any of this argues for or against a Creator

True: a Creator *could* be responsible for morality. My only point is why morality could evolve without a Creator. I've said this before ... so I'm just repeating myself at this point.

> Your refuge here is an eye-witness account to gang-violence used to counter an individual and violent Chimp

There are COUNTLESS examples. A great video on this subject is NoelPlum99's "The Roots of Our Morality" -- /watch?v=Ee5JRkeoMg0

[SirWinstonChurchill]

@ToddAllenGates

Religion and morality belong to the realm of false causes. Religion and morality is a psychology of error.

"Morality" is rooted entirely in the presupposition some higher power defines what is correct for human behavior.

[ToddAllenGates]

@SirWinstonChurchill

> "Morality" is rooted entirely in the presupposition some higher power defines what is correct for human behavior.

Yet even without a Higher Power (I take it we're in agreement on this point), social animals--even those living in the red-in-tooth-and-claw natural world--have traits for things like cooperation & compassion. So it's no surprise that humans have these traits too: and no need to bring a god into the picture to explain why.

[SirWinstonChurchill]

@ToddAllenGates

There is no esoteric hobgoblin of morality, it only exists in the minds superstitious men who are frightened by their own mortality.

[ToddAllenGates]

@ElProximo

> If you premise Evolution (without a god instilling morality) you have a terrible problem - violent 'sociopath' DNA can be seen constantly winning.

Sociopaths don't "win" because their destructiveness leads others within the tribe to shun them. De Waal's "Our Inner Ape" gives many examples of that delicate balance: too passive = no food or mate; too aggressive = shunned, or ganged up on & killed.

[SirWinstonChurchill]

@ToddAllenGates

Nature is pure war with every man against another. Fear of death is the only way to keep the peace, so man is civilized by the threat of violence against him for transgressions upon his neighbor.

The universal dissatisfaction with mortality compels the weak to reach out for some eternal ideal. There is no eternal earth or "world without end."

Nature does not care. Nature does not need human permission. Nature is the only eternal victor. Nature kills everything.

[ToddAllenGates]

@SirWinstonChurchill

> Nature is pure war with every man against another

Maybe among men in different tribes, but survival *within* a tribe demands a check on aggression. We can see the same in chimps: their violence is unrestrained with rival tribes, but restrained within the tribe.

> Nature does not care

Agreed. But humans do. And when we engage in trade with other countries, our incentive for cooperation increases.

[SirWinstonChurchill]

@ToddAllenGates

And I thought my jokes were bad...

How about a magic trick?

[ToddAllenGates]

@ElProximo

1 of 2:

> But you don't know that from studying ethics in animals which may very well be placed there by God.

True.

I'm just saying that even without a god, cooperation still makes sense. Even without the carrot & stick of heaven & hell, social animals (wolves & humans alike; although humans are much more refined!) still need each other to cooperate and care for each other in order to survive.

[ToddAllenGates]

2 of 2:

> You would be backing up this claim if you could find animals which were created without a god.

I think this statement of yours shows why we may be wasting each other's time.

My starting premise is that the existence of a Higher Power is highly unlikely. So I look at *all* creatures as naturally evolved.

But my guess is that you think of this root premise as unfathomable.

[SirWinstonChurchill]

@ToddAllenGates

Nature is pure warfare, pure chaos... Chimps have wars. Meerkats have wars.

Ants, who are man's only rival for the mastery of the earth, also have wars against each other and against all other species.

If the common variety of ants were the size of a house cat, they would wipe us from the earth within a matter of weeks.

There is no esoteric hobgoblin of morality, it only exists in the minds superstitious men who are frightened by their own mortality.

[ToddAllenGates]

@SirWinstonChurchill

> Nature is pure warfare, pure chaos

Nature is definitely savage, and when I watch hyenas rip apart a baby wildebeest in front of its distraught mother, it stuns me that theists think this is the design of a Kindly God.

But within the tribe, cooperative behavior has evolutionary advantages. And we find cooperative traits in all social animals: wolves, hawks, vampire bats (who will vomit excess blood to help feed hungry relatives), etc.

[SirWinstonChurchill]

@ToddAllenGates

Morality is nothing but your deceptive replacement for the "avoidance of sin," an esoteric hobgoblin you created, hoping falsely that I would bend my knee in acquiescence.

It is no different than any witch doctor dancing around a burning idol dispensing curses or blessing to a child frightened of the fire.

[SirWinstonChurchill]

@ToddAllenGates

Anyone who says I am immoral is no different than a preacher or rabbi saying I am a sinner.

[ToddAllenGates]

@SirWinstonChurchill

> You have all these rules and you think they'll save you.

I don't think following the so-called Golden Rule will "save" me, but it's still our best bet when it comes to finding steady work, a steady spouse, raising a stable family, etc.

> The only way sensible way to live in this world is without rules

I'm not sure what you mean by "without rules" .... but I know that sociopaths tend to be shunned (once people figure them out), or end up in prison.

[SirWinstonChurchill]

@ToddAllenGates

And I thought my jokes were bad...

How about a magic trick?

I'm going to make this pencil disappear.

SLAP! BAM!

It's... GONE!

[ToddAllenGates]

@ElProximo

1 of 8:

First of all, if you think the whole idea of a godless universe is absurd to begin with, probably *everything* I say is going to sound absurd.

But pretend with me for a second that a godless universe IS possible: that there's some sort of unknown but naturalistic explanation for the Big Bang, and a naturalistic explanation for the origin of life, and that evolution can explain how life evolved.

[ToddAllenGates]

2 of 8:

(I'm not asking you to buy this . . . just PRETEND for a moment, like you're reading a science fiction novel.)

> What's moral without a god?

Probably the simplest rule of thumb is the Golden Rule. We don't want people to rob or rape or murder us—or live in the kind of society where this happens—so we abide by those rules as well.

[ToddAllenGates]

3 of 8:

But I don't think it's as simple as a Social Contract: rather, our morals evolved over time. Both natural selection and sexual selection help weed out sociopathic traits: for any society filled with destructive individuals would fail to thrive.

But if you think the whole notion of evolution is absurd, then we're probably just wasting each other's time.

[ToddAllenGates]

4 of 8:

> You keep discussing this 'as if' we understand there is some measure of morality we should all understand and even call 'good' or 'evil' somehow.

I know it's not always black & white (was it "good" to end WWII by bombing Hiroshima?), but most people intuitively know that things like stoning people to death for minor violations like working on Saturdays or Sundays is "wrong." And whether theist or atheist, this comes from our evolved morality.

[ToddAllenGates]

5 of 8:

Christians and modern Jews know that such brutal treatment of fellow humans is wrong even though God sanctions it in the Old Testament. So the guiding principle is not the bible, but our evolved morality.

[ToddAllenGates]

6 of 8:

> Stalin was right to kill 5,000 in a day and hang priest corpses on church gates - it benefited him.

Killers like Stalin are also widely hated—societies self-destruct when they're full of Stalins. And when insane people like that manage to rise to political power, they're constantly on the watch for revolt and attacks on their lives.

[ToddAllenGates]

7 of 8:

Anyway, most of us can say Stalin's actions were "wrong" because he created a horrific and terror-filled society: one that goes against our evolved morality of wanting to live in a peaceful and happy society.

> Why would you call returning a wallet 'good' in your godless universe? Good to who? By what standard?

I've returned wallets, and I also donate to charities, and donate blood. Are these things "good" for me? In a very selfish and narrow sense, no!

[ToddAllenGates]

8 of 8:

But the truth is, these acts *do* feel good! Is it because God gave me morality?

Well, if there's a god, yes.

But if there's *not* a god, it can STILL be explained by evolved morality: natural selection and sexual selection favor those who care for their kin—and that caring for kin can extend to our wider community: returning wallets, and donating both money and blood.

[ToddAllenGates]

@ElProximo

> The Christian position (properly) is that without Christ all are 'Insufficient'. Not necessarily 'contradictory or entirely 'man-made'.

C.S. Lewis said something similar: that non-Christian religions are correct in areas that don't contradict Christianity--the universe was made by a Creator, the Golden Rule, etc.--but in all areas that contradict Christianity, then the foreign religions are wrong (man-made).

[ToddAllenGates]

@ElProximo

1 of 3:

> You make the claim that morality could come from unguided naturalistic evolution. .... backing this up by showing morality found in animals. So what?

Just to be clear, this video is not trying to prove there's no god, or that "god couldn't have installed morality in animals." For if there's a god, yes, certainly, He could be responsible for both human and animal morality.

The only thing I'm saying is that if there is no god, morality *still* makes sense.

[ToddAllenGates]

2 of 3:

And it makes sense that this morality evolved millions of years ago: long before not only religion, but long before humans. And this is because victories in the struggle for survival and reproductive success can take many different forms, and caring and cooperation can sometimes be just as crucial as competition.

[ToddAllenGates]

3 of 3:

Cooperative traits are widespread in just about all animals that live in social groups, as social animals need to work together in order to raise their young, warn each other of predators, and hunt their food and fight their enemies.

Regardless of whether there's a god, and whether there's a heaven and hell, morality comes with its own rewards here on earth in this life.

[ToddAllenGates]

@ElProximo

1 of 5:

> A character is a 'fundamentalist' who suggests that there is one true religion and all others are man-made. This is not a typical Christian position (and would be wrong in part) and I don't know that 'fundamentalists' are known for this position either.

Christians who are sensitive to political correctness may find it impolite to say "I'm right; you're wrong" . . .

[ToddAllenGates]

2 of 5:

but if there is a god, and S/He's a communicative one, well, different religions contradict each other in so many profound ways that it only makes sense to say one is right, and the rest are wrong (at least in areas that contradict with the religion of your choice).

To quote the famous Christian apologist Ravi Zacharias:

"Every major religion in the world claims exclusivity, and every major religion in the world has a point of exclusion. . .

[ToddAllenGates]

3 of 5:

... it is the very nature of truth that presents us with this reality. Truth by definition is exclusive. Everything cannot be true. .. One should not be surprised at the claims of exclusivity. Christ is either the immeasurable God or one dreadfully lost. Apply the tests of truth to the person and the message of Jesus Christ. You see not only his exclusivity, but also his uniqueness."

[ToddAllenGates]

4 of 5:

> sure an imaginary weak errant Christian character could say it

Ravi Zacharias is hardly weak, imaginary, nor alone in this school of thought. I don't see why you would think anything is "errant" about this type of thinking either. It's much more coherent than the politically correct "God communicates through ALL religions!"

[ToddAllenGates]

5 of 5:

(That being said, I admit the tolerance of political correctness has practical advantages . . . I don't at all mind the philosophical incoherence, as it makes for a more peaceful society than warring fundamentalism.)

[longslidenyc]

Great video. I read Our Inner Ape and I feel a great companion book that is also very important to the topic is Demonic Males by Richard Wrangham and Dale Peterson. I love the subject.

Peace to the readers.

[ToddAllenGates]

@longslidenyc

> Great video.

Thank you!

> a great companion book that is also very important to the topic is Demonic Males by Richard Wrangham and Dale Peterson.

I'll look into those--thanks.

[Saktoth]

Are your eyes lop-sided? The eyelid on one seems larger than the other. I mention it only because my brother also has something that looks similiar.

[Saktoth]

Hah, i get a downvote for being concerned about peoples medical conditions!

My brother possibly has graves disease or something similiar. Thats all.

[ToddGates]

> Are your eyes lop-sided?

Sorry 'bout the delayed response--I got caught up with other discussions and this one slipped thru the cracks. Anyway, my right eyelid sometimes gets puffy--it's just an allergy thing.

[Saktoth]

Ahh, glad its not a thyroid condition or something nastier then.

[sillygames]

It would have been irrelevant anyway.

[wrekk]

Rapid Ape sent me. Great stuff here.

[ToddAllenGates]

> Great stuff here.

Thanks!

[natewheatshelf]

This is a comment.

[RabidAp3]

comment

[thefakeyeti]

watch?v=Gp7cZ0AWxfI For the gorilla saving the boy

[ToddAllenGates2]

> watch?v=Gp7cZ0AWxfI For the gorilla saving the boy

Yes, that's the one - thanks for the link!

[Rhonda9]

It bothers me that so little respect for the animal kingdom is given. We can learn a lot from their ability to cooperate with each other. There used to be a large pack of dogs (I counted 8 one time) that traveled the streets when I lived in the city. They were strays that hung together and would appear in my back yard periodically. They only stayed long enough to rest. Any sign of a human and off they would go! Domestic dogs who instinctively understood innate advantages to cooperation/loyalty.