@TimPriestnall - that is my vario altimeter; a fast rising beep means you are climbing. A slowing lower tone means you are falling. The change in tone is coincident with my entry/exit to/from a small punchy thermal. I looked at my chute because I was aware of the collapse rather than because of the vario. However, frantic vario beeping (ie rapid changes in height) are an indicator that you are in turbulent conditions.
You can see on hand from the harness a front clapper, probably while exiting the thermal, you can see how before that he had gone light on the brakes.
I saw the comment a couple times, the only you can do in a front clapper is to let the chute reinflate and then carefully brake, frantically braking only makes the situation worse especially when the inputs are so large, they then lead to asymetrical collapses, which I think can be seen in the video. The clapper isn't preventable, practice.
I know someone who did a front collapse deliberately on a Vulcan which he said took a worryingly long time to open. I know a very good pilot who hit the ground from 100 feet plus after one. I have had maybe four big ones in 15 years of flying. Mostly lost no hight. One I lost maybe 50-70 feet. I guess it's a matter of luck.... and not panicking and hauling on the brakes ;o) Still easier said than done if you are the one falling out of the sky.
Hi i hope your ok after this. Just an observation, i had a Ozone Vulcan for 7 years, the distance between your karbinas seems very wide! as a rule of thumb the distance should be 42 cm about the size measured from the top of a closed fist to your elbow.Pausing your film whilst both are in view it looks like the gap is a lot more than this!! I know that the larger you are the larger the gap as well as the camera angle may make this look larger. be very interesting to know
You can see he enter on a thermal the glider dive forward, he didn't felt it, when he realize he looks up the glider that is finishing its dive then he try to brake it, but its already too late, he get a frontal and instead to put hands up to let a glider come flying again, do exactly the opposite he go deep on brakes not allowing the glider to pitch forward to come back flying again, he go on deep brakes until the ground!
Pilot error, but also a bit of bad luck because he was near the ground!
my oars worth is it's easy to judge and comment and pretend we have never botched up.Thing is we are human and make many mistakes no matter what background you have. I have had many hours flying and cannot stop and thank you for letting me see this,I may need it one day.
my oars worth is it's easy to judge and comment and pretend we have never botched up.Thing is we are human and make many mistakes no matter what background you have. I have had many hours flying and cannot stop and thank you for letting me see this,I may need it one day.
Happy to hear, you have no terrible injuries. With flying low, the danger grows exponentialy. Even small colapses can cause disaster. And we have to count with it. I rather bother around in low altitude when there are no strong thermal activities.
My thought after seeing your video is that maybe you a little bit overeacted - and it causes the glider to go to fullstal/wana spin condition. But I am afraid would do the same in stress condistion :/
You have to strong and to early reaction for this situation. Glider was behind you and you do a lot of brake input. This is normal that you enter into fullstall or deepstall. Only brake input strong when the glider is far in the front.
manual says 10-20cm but video shows you did about 50cm and completely stalled the wing.
I had a front collapse few times on DHV2 class wing, and it's scary but let it go next time. wing will jump forward so you will see it in front of you, sometimes under, let it speed up. it needs speed.
Hands wrapped 2 or 3 times around the brakes looks cool but you are then flying at near stall speed - you couldn't release brakes quick enough to gain flying speed when wing stalled.
Pulling down on brakes only kept glider in stall.
Just sold my Vulcan; they are a top end class 2 and not very forgiving. Always flew with fingers only not hands through brakes and thumb hooked under carabiniere - that way you are always well above stall point.
Try a newer class 1. Performance is much the same .
Mate but I have a question: Just before, I think you entered a thermal and seems like the glider was in a full stall position due to the back tips of the canopy almost touching. And I think that is what happened, I will be really interested if you could share more about your accident please
@estebanmarin002 Hi Esteban. What you can't see in the video is that the initial problem was a frontal collapse - this is just out of shot. Naturally the wing then dropped behind me some way, partially deflated and looking fully stalled. I think it's more likely that the cause of this was relatively colder, descending air closing the leading edge of the wing as I exited a thermal.
The main thing is that you are well and can recover and fly again. Up until the incident you were having fun. If the sport didn't have an edge to it, many of us wouldn't bother.
Sorry for the incident, I think its way better to fly a dhv1 or Dhv1 2, safer wing. Even with little decrease of fun. Why to sacrifice safety for a little more fun? I heard that dhv1 wings ( recent ones 2009 2010, design) , are pretty good compared with the old 2000 manufacture year. Just my thought. Personally I would take safety first. I ma convinced that with MesCAL 2, or windtech impulse, that collapse and stall would been avoided.
The initial reaction to the front tuck was to blame. When a wing has a front tuck, it will re-inflate and fly without any control. If you instinctivly pull down on the breaks this will stop. A closed wing will stall.
This is what happened. When the front collapses - hands up, let the wing recover itself - there is nothing else you can do. let it dive in front of you - that is when you break the wing a bit and then recover. This applies to any glider, but 1 and 1-2's are more forgiving.
@BTPreservation. Hi, thanks for the comment. This is something I have thought about. I realise that the wing will recover itself following a front tuck, but I was pretty close to the ground and wanted to recover the tuck asap. The Vulcan user manual states: "Symmetrical collapses reinflate without pilot input, however 15 to
20cm of brake applied symmetrically will speed the process."
A lot has been said already below... I think you overreacted after the frontal: yanking the brake lines. I would recommend (all pilots) doing a Safety Training to practice situations like this in a (relatively) controlled environment. In situations like this your reflexes should be spot on especially when flying low.
@FinsterFlummoxing. Hi Finster. Paragliding, as with any airsport, involves a level of risk. However, it is a much safer sport now than it was 20 years ago thanks to advances in wing design resulting in more benign behavioural characteristics. It's essential to train for a BHPA qualification though (Club Pilot, minimum).
@ChuckyG2009 i disagree here... i made my license back in 1999, and the paragliders were much safer back in those days as they were designed much more like parachutes.... i don`t fly anymore.
In 2009 the BHPA had seven deaths including a student under instruction, with (currently) 1,400 'unofficial' accident reports on their website there is no indication the sport is getting safer!
Note, these days we are seeing BHPA 'CP' Rated pilots on the hills with as little (here I'm QUOTING several BHPA schools!) 'at least 30 mins airtime by the end of training'...
Personally I've flown over 7,000 hrs on 'comp' or '2/3' & '3' rated wings :-)
if you fly at the very evening,just before the sunset, or at early morning, when there are almost no thermals, on gently smooth slope, the actual flight will be very smooth & safe even for a scholar dumbass flying by mistake on DHV3. On the other hand, flying in a thermally violent midday, or in a gusty spring wind, can do a serious collapse even to DHV1 wing.
So, choose not only the adequate wing, but adequate weather as well.
@manhill Microlights are the most dangerous, Hanggliding needs too much equipment and skydiving is actually quite boring... I fly for a living and know the stats.
@FinsterFlummoxing Judging from Youtube videos You will eventually come hurling towards the ground. To me this is much like high altitude mountaneering - a lot of the guys doing that have their body lying some high on a mountain. Looks really kool though.
@FinsterFlummoxing Here we go again re: which is safer Paragliding or Hang Gliding. I've just read a report from a paragliding instructor of twenty years (also a hang glider pilot) who says hang gliding is safer, (or less dangerous). A Hang Glider is semi rigid wing which is braced to absorb impact. A Paraglider is not, if it collapses and does not re-inflate in time it's you verses the terrain. Usually the terrain wins.
Im glad it ended "well". Can you tell me how it happened? Was it the right side of your wing that collapsed? Im a novice pilot and want to learn from this. Thx.
@jansport0409. Hi Jansport, no the wing front-tucked at 4:57 which I recovered quite quickly but I believe the front-tuck slowed it down to its stall speed so from 4:59 onwards it is in a deep stall. I think a good lesson from this is to think carefully about flying in rough thermic conditions especially when you are spending a good deal of time close to the ground.
The slickest thing here is that "proper time" greatly depends on the front tuck size. So there are no rules like "pull on 15-20 cm", the only proper judgment is the wind in face. Do not pull breaks until you will feel the wing has actually gained the speed and is about to overfly you. While dealing with frontal tucks of any size one should focus on wing speed first, and one the breaks second.
@TimPriestnall - that is my vario altimeter; a fast rising beep means you are climbing. A slowing lower tone means you are falling. The change in tone is coincident with my entry/exit to/from a small punchy thermal. I looked at my chute because I was aware of the collapse rather than because of the vario. However, frantic vario beeping (ie rapid changes in height) are an indicator that you are in turbulent conditions.
ChuckyG2009 2 months ago
What was the beeping? sounded like it was measuring something, as when it went crazy you suddenly looked up at your wing
TimPriestnall 2 months ago
glad you ok buddy xx
cloudsurferireland 2 months ago
yawn...
BANKSYSKNAB 7 months ago
Ref Murray Hay:-
1. Doesnt take into account that a lot more people are flying nowdays so we should expect? more accidents.
2. Gliders are SAFER nowadays BUT they are only as safe as the person using them.
3. As for stating use of DHV 2/3, DHV3, what does this mean? I know plenty of pilots on the hill flying them who should be on DHV 1 OR DHV 1/2's.
It can be relatively safe BUT this depends on YOU, if you are a risk-taker I suggest crochet...but watch your eye with that needle!
lpmanuk 7 months ago
Spot mistakes..
1. Sping time [April] (after a Winter with little flying?).
2. Most turbulent part of the day (14.00 hrs).
3. Flying close to hill in turbulent conditions.
4. Pilot braked (stalled as he had wrap on) canopy insted of letting full-frontal recover.
5. Perhaps if pilot reacts as in 4 it indicates that canopy is too advanced for his level of experience?
BUT
Pilot recognised HIS mistake rather than saying 'I was unlucky' ..respect!
Thanks for your honesty/post
lpmanuk 7 months ago
You can see on hand from the harness a front clapper, probably while exiting the thermal, you can see how before that he had gone light on the brakes.
I saw the comment a couple times, the only you can do in a front clapper is to let the chute reinflate and then carefully brake, frantically braking only makes the situation worse especially when the inputs are so large, they then lead to asymetrical collapses, which I think can be seen in the video. The clapper isn't preventable, practice.
davehor1 8 months ago
at 4:51 is when he crashes
zomzom26 8 months ago
I know someone who did a front collapse deliberately on a Vulcan which he said took a worryingly long time to open. I know a very good pilot who hit the ground from 100 feet plus after one. I have had maybe four big ones in 15 years of flying. Mostly lost no hight. One I lost maybe 50-70 feet. I guess it's a matter of luck.... and not panicking and hauling on the brakes ;o) Still easier said than done if you are the one falling out of the sky.
drbobbeattie 9 months ago
WAY TOO LONG! Hope you're OK! As for the guy thinking about taking up paragliding, it's as dangerous as you are. This accident was all pilot error.
onewingman 9 months ago
Wraps will always take you to a bad place.
joefaetheblock 11 months ago
Hi i hope your ok after this. Just an observation, i had a Ozone Vulcan for 7 years, the distance between your karbinas seems very wide! as a rule of thumb the distance should be 42 cm about the size measured from the top of a closed fist to your elbow.Pausing your film whilst both are in view it looks like the gap is a lot more than this!! I know that the larger you are the larger the gap as well as the camera angle may make this look larger. be very interesting to know
murcuryf 11 months ago
Please remove the first 4:30 of the video ...
jjdupz 11 months ago 9
Damn that sucked! Cause- over braking the front collapse, lead to deep/full stall
smad333 1 year ago 2
This is a very instructive video - thanks for posting. Hope you are fully recovered.
hunnyhillbees 1 year ago
You can see he enter on a thermal the glider dive forward, he didn't felt it, when he realize he looks up the glider that is finishing its dive then he try to brake it, but its already too late, he get a frontal and instead to put hands up to let a glider come flying again, do exactly the opposite he go deep on brakes not allowing the glider to pitch forward to come back flying again, he go on deep brakes until the ground!
Pilot error, but also a bit of bad luck because he was near the ground!
gisellemartins20 1 year ago
Comment removed
gisellemartins20 1 year ago
my oars worth is it's easy to judge and comment and pretend we have never botched up.Thing is we are human and make many mistakes no matter what background you have. I have had many hours flying and cannot stop and thank you for letting me see this,I may need it one day.
Keep flyin;-)
freeflyinmik 1 year ago
my oars worth is it's easy to judge and comment and pretend we have never botched up.Thing is we are human and make many mistakes no matter what background you have. I have had many hours flying and cannot stop and thank you for letting me see this,I may need it one day.
Keep flyin;-)
freeflyinmik 1 year ago
Happy to hear, you have no terrible injuries. With flying low, the danger grows exponentialy. Even small colapses can cause disaster. And we have to count with it. I rather bother around in low altitude when there are no strong thermal activities.
My thought after seeing your video is that maybe you a little bit overeacted - and it causes the glider to go to fullstal/wana spin condition. But I am afraid would do the same in stress condistion :/
sundancer84 1 year ago
You have to strong and to early reaction for this situation. Glider was behind you and you do a lot of brake input. This is normal that you enter into fullstall or deepstall. Only brake input strong when the glider is far in the front.
wocteampoland 1 year ago
manual says 10-20cm but video shows you did about 50cm and completely stalled the wing.
I had a front collapse few times on DHV2 class wing, and it's scary but let it go next time. wing will jump forward so you will see it in front of you, sometimes under, let it speed up. it needs speed.
have a good recovery
paraflying 1 year ago
ower control
caixetac 1 year ago
ower control
caixetac 1 year ago
Hands wrapped 2 or 3 times around the brakes looks cool but you are then flying at near stall speed - you couldn't release brakes quick enough to gain flying speed when wing stalled.
Pulling down on brakes only kept glider in stall.
Just sold my Vulcan; they are a top end class 2 and not very forgiving. Always flew with fingers only not hands through brakes and thumb hooked under carabiniere - that way you are always well above stall point.
Try a newer class 1. Performance is much the same .
RONPICH 1 year ago
@RONPICH --- I think you pin pointed the problem. this kind of wrapping the brakes 2 or 3 times means 50-60 cm brake input. way too much.
Hope the recovery goes well. Take care and safe flying.
explorateurdesairs 1 year ago
@explorateurdesairs Looks like only minimal wrap to me (half?) - hand passed through brake handle then line around two fingers.
Murmur2k 1 year ago
vc setolou avela. desculpe mas vc ja tinha dado duas voutas com os batoques.
defeito de braço duro acontece.
anaorjr 1 year ago
A friend of mine did a front tuck on a Vulcan. It took a good few hundred feet to get flying again.
Then again, it looks like that crash was pretty much self inflicted. Burying the breaks after a front tuck.
Easily done though. It's kind of a natural reaction to try and keep pressure in the glider I think.
drbobbeattie 1 year ago
Thanks for this posting, it has sparked a lengthy discussion in my paragliding club and helped us all learn.
sbwords 1 year ago
Mate but I have a question: Just before, I think you entered a thermal and seems like the glider was in a full stall position due to the back tips of the canopy almost touching. And I think that is what happened, I will be really interested if you could share more about your accident please
estebanmarin002 1 year ago
@estebanmarin002 Hi Esteban. What you can't see in the video is that the initial problem was a frontal collapse - this is just out of shot. Naturally the wing then dropped behind me some way, partially deflated and looking fully stalled. I think it's more likely that the cause of this was relatively colder, descending air closing the leading edge of the wing as I exited a thermal.
ChuckyG2009 1 year ago
@estebanmarin002 :ur a nerd
zomzom26 8 months ago
The main thing is that you are well and can recover and fly again. Up until the incident you were having fun. If the sport didn't have an edge to it, many of us wouldn't bother.
Get well soon and fly safe mate.
Bryan
BTPreservation 1 year ago
Sorry for the incident, I think its way better to fly a dhv1 or Dhv1 2, safer wing. Even with little decrease of fun. Why to sacrifice safety for a little more fun? I heard that dhv1 wings ( recent ones 2009 2010, design) , are pretty good compared with the old 2000 manufacture year. Just my thought. Personally I would take safety first. I ma convinced that with MesCAL 2, or windtech impulse, that collapse and stall would been avoided.
cristihutan 1 year ago
Comment removed
cristihutan 1 year ago
The initial reaction to the front tuck was to blame. When a wing has a front tuck, it will re-inflate and fly without any control. If you instinctivly pull down on the breaks this will stop. A closed wing will stall.
This is what happened. When the front collapses - hands up, let the wing recover itself - there is nothing else you can do. let it dive in front of you - that is when you break the wing a bit and then recover. This applies to any glider, but 1 and 1-2's are more forgiving.
BTPreservation 1 year ago 5
@BTPreservation. Hi, thanks for the comment. This is something I have thought about. I realise that the wing will recover itself following a front tuck, but I was pretty close to the ground and wanted to recover the tuck asap. The Vulcan user manual states: "Symmetrical collapses reinflate without pilot input, however 15 to
20cm of brake applied symmetrically will speed the process."
ChuckyG2009 1 year ago
@ChuckyG2009 Glad you are okay!
A lot has been said already below... I think you overreacted after the frontal: yanking the brake lines. I would recommend (all pilots) doing a Safety Training to practice situations like this in a (relatively) controlled environment. In situations like this your reflexes should be spot on especially when flying low.
paraglideaddict 9 months ago
@BTPreservation so you mean that he should NOT brake the wing when it collapses?
lookus69 8 months ago
How common is this? I was thinking about taking up the sport. I mean, how dangerous is this sport?
FinsterFlummoxing 1 year ago
@FinsterFlummoxing. Hi Finster. Paragliding, as with any airsport, involves a level of risk. However, it is a much safer sport now than it was 20 years ago thanks to advances in wing design resulting in more benign behavioural characteristics. It's essential to train for a BHPA qualification though (Club Pilot, minimum).
ChuckyG2009 1 year ago
@ChuckyG2009 i disagree here... i made my license back in 1999, and the paragliders were much safer back in those days as they were designed much more like parachutes.... i don`t fly anymore.
manhill 1 year ago
@manhill You are quite simply wrong here.. Much safer today, stats show it and the design is as such.
ollycopter 1 year ago
Ref Ollycopter comment about 'Much safer today'..
In 2009 the BHPA had seven deaths including a student under instruction, with (currently) 1,400 'unofficial' accident reports on their website there is no indication the sport is getting safer!
Note, these days we are seeing BHPA 'CP' Rated pilots on the hills with as little (here I'm QUOTING several BHPA schools!) 'at least 30 mins airtime by the end of training'...
Personally I've flown over 7,000 hrs on 'comp' or '2/3' & '3' rated wings :-)
murrayhay 1 year ago
@FinsterFlummoxing
if you fly at the very evening,just before the sunset, or at early morning, when there are almost no thermals, on gently smooth slope, the actual flight will be very smooth & safe even for a scholar dumbass flying by mistake on DHV3. On the other hand, flying in a thermally violent midday, or in a gusty spring wind, can do a serious collapse even to DHV1 wing.
So, choose not only the adequate wing, but adequate weather as well.
facelessbel 1 year ago
@FinsterFlummoxing go skydiving, go hanggliding, go and fly an ultralight airplane. but dont start paragliding.
manhill 1 year ago
@manhill Microlights are the most dangerous, Hanggliding needs too much equipment and skydiving is actually quite boring... I fly for a living and know the stats.
ollycopter 1 year ago
@FinsterFlummoxing Judging from Youtube videos You will eventually come hurling towards the ground. To me this is much like high altitude mountaneering - a lot of the guys doing that have their body lying some high on a mountain. Looks really kool though.
FrekeOne 1 year ago
@FinsterFlummoxing Here we go again re: which is safer Paragliding or Hang Gliding. I've just read a report from a paragliding instructor of twenty years (also a hang glider pilot) who says hang gliding is safer, (or less dangerous). A Hang Glider is semi rigid wing which is braced to absorb impact. A Paraglider is not, if it collapses and does not re-inflate in time it's you verses the terrain. Usually the terrain wins.
MrLiftHog 7 months ago
Sorry buddy - Yes, if it's bumpy - go high and away from the mountain or wait for better conditions.
Speedy and full recovery and many hours of safe flying I wish you.
Regards.
Roelof39 1 year ago
ohh, could been worse! a big wish to recover soon!
auronrrokaj 1 year ago
maybe you should fly a 1 Glider instead of a 2 ?!?
TheParabolus 1 year ago
Im glad it ended "well". Can you tell me how it happened? Was it the right side of your wing that collapsed? Im a novice pilot and want to learn from this. Thx.
jansport0409 1 year ago
@jansport0409. Hi Jansport, no the wing front-tucked at 4:57 which I recovered quite quickly but I believe the front-tuck slowed it down to its stall speed so from 4:59 onwards it is in a deep stall. I think a good lesson from this is to think carefully about flying in rough thermic conditions especially when you are spending a good deal of time close to the ground.
ChuckyG2009 1 year ago
@ChuckyG2009 Oh I see. That´s why still stay in cool air. Thx for your answer.
jansport0409 1 year ago
@ChuckyG2009 Hope you get better soon. Sure looked a bit panicky!
Reechforthesky 1 year ago
@ChuckyG2009
The slickest thing here is that "proper time" greatly depends on the front tuck size. So there are no rules like "pull on 15-20 cm", the only proper judgment is the wind in face. Do not pull breaks until you will feel the wing has actually gained the speed and is about to overfly you. While dealing with frontal tucks of any size one should focus on wing speed first, and one the breaks second.
facelessbel 1 year ago
OUCH!!!
I wish you a speedy recovery.
flyhghgy 1 year ago