Whatever works, works. I grew up playing in a Dixieland band where nobody read anything. The thinking was that it would wreck one's ability to improvise. "Do you read?" "Yes, but not enough to ruin my playing...."If you can get there this way, fine. Just don't try to explain it to me...(wink)..
@terrryc Cherokee is a very popular song for jazz improvisers to play "improv" solos over. This kind of analysis is DESIGNED to help a person who is wanting to improvise using this chord progression. I get tons of criticism, but I actually am able to improvise quite well over just his sort of set of chord changes. I'm trying to HELP. You may want to realize there are many purposes for videos. Of course the SOUND comes first. That is assumed. Please do not read too much into things.
If you analyse at all you should drop a comment on the weird relation the melody notes play in the forcibly applied changes here. The A-Part melody uses notes that all belong to Bb. So there'd be no need to modulate. So in segments 3&4 instead of Fm Bb7 normally you'd take Eb and in segment 5&6 you'd take Bb, and 7&8 you'd take F7.etc...
Are these the changes used for the Clifford Brown version of Cherokee? I've seen different ones in different books but they all were published recently so maybe they were reharmonized.
@Kaitano94 I have not listened carefully to the Clifford rendering. I have listened to it, casually many times, and admire it. But, I'd need to focus more, to be sure of each change. This is the version in the "Blue" "Great Gig Book" fake book. Probably the best way to approach learning this is to start with either a simpler, or the original, then get to know that well, going on to reharmonized versions later. Often the exact same choice of licks can work over the reharmonized version.
Right. Perhaps the "terminology" is not correct, but the more important thing is to understand the concept, and to be able to be practical and actually be able to improvise musically. Knowing that I should have said "tonicization" may have been better, but then, THAT term itself would have needed to be explained. What I said is a bit like a verbal SHORTHAND.
@JazzKeyboardist1: Right you are. My emphasis upon chord / scale and "key" you are in at any point is only a shorthand way of thinking about something which is really fundamentally about how the improv really sounds. Sound is king, and of course, there are times when something dissonant, or "out" is just what is needed. The approach I take is not to make things super easy, but to show what is happening in the music, so further good musical moments can happen. Thx.
nice,,I was thrown together with this head banger guitarist for a jazz gig that he booked, during a rehearsel he said what scale should i play over , i think it was girl from ipanema,,,I said,,, i don't know,, just play the chord,,,, he was always measures behind, of course,, still on fmaj at the middle section,,,,, I thought we shouldn't try cherokee,,, lol
another approach to the Ab is to approach it as a reharmonization of a iv minor - ie as Ebm7. if u listen to Robert Conti's performance of Cherokee on youtube he does this
Yes, the dominants are really where you get to establish your style, and can be perplexing, particularly at higher speeds.
I've heard several pretty decent improvisers praise the use of the "diminished scale", which classical theorists call the "symmetrical scale--for Ab7 you would use Ab, A, B, C, D, Eb, F, Gb
Fantastic on flat ninth, but also includes raised nine, 11th, 13th.
You're mostly on target here, but the Ab7 is just this particular harmonization, and fakebook chord types are often unreliable. I can't think of a single performance that uses a straight Ab7 chord here. It's a IV chord in Eb, why don't you call it that. And some reharms call for a different sound completely. For example, Art Tatum uses G not Gb in the chord.
@oOoACFREEMANoOo Well, you know where it comes from... Its the 7th degree of the harmonized Minor scale. Easiest way to make this change is to think of it as Bb minor for a couple bars. Makes it easy to motif too. Anything you want to do different is going to be a reharm or substitute for that. And that "in the key of Eb" ...Eb is the IV of Bb. We're still in Bb... Just a ii V to the IV chord. Key change happens in the bridge.
Thanks David. These guys got themselves all confused because it didn't occur to them I was calling this particular set of chords ii - V7
They thought I was saying II - V - VII
If they get that goofed up by this kind of harmonic talk, they probably need to do a bit more basic training. But, anybody who really, really wants to, can improvise. For many it takes a long time to get comfortable with it, but I've seen some real poor players turn into great jazz players. Happens over years and years.
I see what you mean, but there's really no need to call it a
II-V(7). You can jsut call it a 2-5 in whatever the major key is. It reduces the misconception that it is the 7 chord, and also makes a lot more sense. Alo, u sure you're right? You said the cadence in measure 3-5 was a 2-5(7). Yes, it is, but there's also the 1 right there, so, call it a 2-5-1. on some of the later ones where the chords do not resolve to the 1, you can call it a 2-5(7), but otherewise, it makes no sense.
Thanks. It is a little imprecise to use vague terms, but then the whole world of improv is kind of imprecise. If you wait until you have precision licks in mind you are not playing. Better to be playing and yet approximating!
My primary point is to know what key and what type (minor or major key) you are in at that moment. This reminds me of when I sat in with a group that had won the Hollywood Bowl jazz festival youth prize. The leader was repeatedly talking about what key they were in .
Your analysis is fine. The whole confusion about ii-V7 or ii-V-vii is really quite silly since ii-V-vii is irrelevant. However, you could help the situation by simply just saying "two-five" instead of "two-five-seven" because the 7th of the V7 is implied. Can you think of a single V chord in jazz in which the 7th is NOT to be played? Also, if you really want to say V7, why don't you you could also specify chord quality for ii, like "ii-minor 7 - V seven." Either way, be consistent.
@crtune I don't know if that's totally fair either. I was expecting to hear "2-5-1 in E flat". I got a strong "Expert Village" vibe when you kept saying 2-5-7 lol. We clearly misunderstood you. I'm glad you actually know what you're talking about, cuz some people really don't, but I think 2-5-1 would've been less confusing. Thumbs up.
Two is a subdominant function;The dominant seven (the five-seven) is a dominant function; these are not ALWAYS followed by ONE. Often the chords just cascade down, implying a key, then another key.
I'm totally aware of all the chord functions. I've got a full college training in harmony and have played professionally for more than twenty years.
I'm not even going to start on this video - I'll just simply say aboutt he bridge, don't say "whole steps" when your explaining - all your doing is a CLASSIC example of "chaining 2 5's" (as I call it) right down the circle of music ("rubbing 2 5's" down the circle as I call it would be C#- F#7 B, then E- A7 D instead of B- E7 A)
Comment removed
gtsmprn 2 months ago
Interesting vid. Not least because it helps poor musicians like me to remember the middle bit.
I love music but have a very poor 'ear'.
However.
It seems to me that bar 3 is a dimished chord based on B natural and a Gminor chord is present after the A flat cord flatted 5th.
The Gmin leads to the C9th
As i say like the vid.
Only wish i could improvise on this and other 'toons'
Im speaking american now.
divvy1400yam600 3 months ago
Whatever works, works. I grew up playing in a Dixieland band where nobody read anything. The thinking was that it would wreck one's ability to improvise. "Do you read?" "Yes, but not enough to ruin my playing...."If you can get there this way, fine. Just don't try to explain it to me...(wink)..
terrryc 3 months ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Another egghead analyzing the song to death. Follow your ears, Beethoven. Oh wait. That motherfu@er was deaf...
terrryc 3 months ago
@terrryc Cherokee is a very popular song for jazz improvisers to play "improv" solos over. This kind of analysis is DESIGNED to help a person who is wanting to improvise using this chord progression. I get tons of criticism, but I actually am able to improvise quite well over just his sort of set of chord changes. I'm trying to HELP. You may want to realize there are many purposes for videos. Of course the SOUND comes first. That is assumed. Please do not read too much into things.
crtune 3 months ago 8
@terrryc So, Miles, Charlie, and Dizzy never analyzed a tune like this?
alaincharnier1971 1 month ago
What's more, the melody notes of part A constitue the pentatonic scale : (Bb, C, D, F, G), so Part A should please Chinese and Japanese alike.
Littlewhitelephant 4 months ago
If you analyse at all you should drop a comment on the weird relation the melody notes play in the forcibly applied changes here. The A-Part melody uses notes that all belong to Bb. So there'd be no need to modulate. So in segments 3&4 instead of Fm Bb7 normally you'd take Eb and in segment 5&6 you'd take Bb, and 7&8 you'd take F7.etc...
Littlewhitelephant 4 months ago
2-5-7 means 2-5-1?
RobBrooksMusic 4 months ago
II v I
lifedream5 6 months ago
BbLydian/FMaj (F= Bb with a b5) half step up for the change then "back cycle" (whole steps) down to FMaj.
63mk1 7 months ago
Are these the changes used for the Clifford Brown version of Cherokee? I've seen different ones in different books but they all were published recently so maybe they were reharmonized.
Kaitano94 8 months ago
@Kaitano94 I have not listened carefully to the Clifford rendering. I have listened to it, casually many times, and admire it. But, I'd need to focus more, to be sure of each change. This is the version in the "Blue" "Great Gig Book" fake book. Probably the best way to approach learning this is to start with either a simpler, or the original, then get to know that well, going on to reharmonized versions later. Often the exact same choice of licks can work over the reharmonized version.
crtune 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
thank you :-) more!
slashchords 10 months ago
Right. Perhaps the "terminology" is not correct, but the more important thing is to understand the concept, and to be able to be practical and actually be able to improvise musically. Knowing that I should have said "tonicization" may have been better, but then, THAT term itself would have needed to be explained. What I said is a bit like a verbal SHORTHAND.
crtune 1 year ago
This guy confuses "cadence" with "tonicization."
guitarslim56 1 year ago
@JazzKeyboardist1: Right you are. My emphasis upon chord / scale and "key" you are in at any point is only a shorthand way of thinking about something which is really fundamentally about how the improv really sounds. Sound is king, and of course, there are times when something dissonant, or "out" is just what is needed. The approach I take is not to make things super easy, but to show what is happening in the music, so further good musical moments can happen. Thx.
crtune 1 year ago
nice,,I was thrown together with this head banger guitarist for a jazz gig that he booked, during a rehearsel he said what scale should i play over , i think it was girl from ipanema,,,I said,,, i don't know,, just play the chord,,,, he was always measures behind, of course,, still on fmaj at the middle section,,,,, I thought we shouldn't try cherokee,,, lol
JazzKeyboardist1 1 year ago
Great song and great changes to play!!
anitadavideduo 1 year ago
thx ill try it out!
oOoACFREEMANoOo 1 year ago
Good info on Cherokee.
signupandmakemoney 1 year ago
another approach to the Ab is to approach it as a reharmonization of a iv minor - ie as Ebm7. if u listen to Robert Conti's performance of Cherokee on youtube he does this
hakanozelguitarist 2 years ago
Yes I agree. Both reharmonizations are part of a comparable substitution set.
jjmc321 2 years ago
Hi, cool stuff,
But you just skip over Ab7, which I find the hardest. Ab7 lydian b7 sounds funny, mixo and blues dont quite do it either.
oOoACFREEMANoOo 2 years ago
Yes, the dominants are really where you get to establish your style, and can be perplexing, particularly at higher speeds.
I've heard several pretty decent improvisers praise the use of the "diminished scale", which classical theorists call the "symmetrical scale--for Ab7 you would use Ab, A, B, C, D, Eb, F, Gb
Fantastic on flat ninth, but also includes raised nine, 11th, 13th.
crtune 2 years ago
You're mostly on target here, but the Ab7 is just this particular harmonization, and fakebook chord types are often unreliable. I can't think of a single performance that uses a straight Ab7 chord here. It's a IV chord in Eb, why don't you call it that. And some reharms call for a different sound completely. For example, Art Tatum uses G not Gb in the chord.
jjmc321 2 years ago
The diminished scale in classical theory is most commonly called the *octatonic scale*
jjmc321 2 years ago
Ab7: family #6
delpimpo 2 years ago
play 1/2 - 1 or diminished dom
this always works, this was the semi-famous Joe Pass $50 lesson. after he took $50, he told you this. you just heard it for free!
cattleprods911 2 years ago
Comment removed
guitarbr0 1 year ago
@oOoACFREEMANoOo Well, you know where it comes from... Its the 7th degree of the harmonized Minor scale. Easiest way to make this change is to think of it as Bb minor for a couple bars. Makes it easy to motif too. Anything you want to do different is going to be a reharm or substitute for that. And that "in the key of Eb" ...Eb is the IV of Bb. We're still in Bb... Just a ii V to the IV chord. Key change happens in the bridge.
guitarbr0 1 year ago
Tenth bar: Dm7 is just the III of Bb, not dorian...
The C7 following is just a "broadened" II, it can also have a #4 and a #5.
janmorez 2 years ago
I've never understood what those key things above the measures are and I still don't really understand. I'm really never gonna understand them.
aishiteru16Sai 3 years ago
You're kidding, right? Look at his other videos...this guy's MASTER!
davidmagician4 3 years ago
Thanks David. These guys got themselves all confused because it didn't occur to them I was calling this particular set of chords ii - V7
They thought I was saying II - V - VII
If they get that goofed up by this kind of harmonic talk, they probably need to do a bit more basic training. But, anybody who really, really wants to, can improvise. For many it takes a long time to get comfortable with it, but I've seen some real poor players turn into great jazz players. Happens over years and years.
crtune 3 years ago
Same thing happens sometimes with magicians, it turns out.
davidmagician4 3 years ago
I see what you mean, but there's really no need to call it a
II-V(7). You can jsut call it a 2-5 in whatever the major key is. It reduces the misconception that it is the 7 chord, and also makes a lot more sense. Alo, u sure you're right? You said the cadence in measure 3-5 was a 2-5(7). Yes, it is, but there's also the 1 right there, so, call it a 2-5-1. on some of the later ones where the chords do not resolve to the 1, you can call it a 2-5(7), but otherewise, it makes no sense.
donotclickonthis 3 years ago
Thanks. It is a little imprecise to use vague terms, but then the whole world of improv is kind of imprecise. If you wait until you have precision licks in mind you are not playing. Better to be playing and yet approximating!
My primary point is to know what key and what type (minor or major key) you are in at that moment. This reminds me of when I sat in with a group that had won the Hollywood Bowl jazz festival youth prize. The leader was repeatedly talking about what key they were in .
crtune 3 years ago
Your analysis is fine. The whole confusion about ii-V7 or ii-V-vii is really quite silly since ii-V-vii is irrelevant. However, you could help the situation by simply just saying "two-five" instead of "two-five-seven" because the 7th of the V7 is implied. Can you think of a single V chord in jazz in which the 7th is NOT to be played? Also, if you really want to say V7, why don't you you could also specify chord quality for ii, like "ii-minor 7 - V seven." Either way, be consistent.
jjmc321 2 years ago 2
@crtune I don't know if that's totally fair either. I was expecting to hear "2-5-1 in E flat". I got a strong "Expert Village" vibe when you kept saying 2-5-7 lol. We clearly misunderstood you. I'm glad you actually know what you're talking about, cuz some people really don't, but I think 2-5-1 would've been less confusing. Thumbs up.
HuggumsMcgehee 1 year ago
fail.
shoegazer666 3 years ago
Its II-V-I
riam76 3 years ago
Two is a subdominant function;The dominant seven (the five-seven) is a dominant function; these are not ALWAYS followed by ONE. Often the chords just cascade down, implying a key, then another key.
I'm totally aware of all the chord functions. I've got a full college training in harmony and have played professionally for more than twenty years.
crtune 3 years ago
why do you call it II-V-VII ?
riam76 3 years ago
Roman Numroles
kingclarinet 3 years ago
He's calling it II-V7
WindsOfCreation 3 years ago
Two five seven, LOL!
BassThrasher 3 years ago
I'm not even going to start on this video - I'll just simply say aboutt he bridge, don't say "whole steps" when your explaining - all your doing is a CLASSIC example of "chaining 2 5's" (as I call it) right down the circle of music ("rubbing 2 5's" down the circle as I call it would be C#- F#7 B, then E- A7 D instead of B- E7 A)
KingSnowman 3 years ago
Its all B flat in the A-parts except the Ab7 chord, thats 1 bar Db major.
The bridge is 2-5-1's in major, modulating whole step down etc...
DeRauser 3 years ago