How does Jhana compare to the psychedelic experience? Is it at all similar, or contain similar aspects? I am not asking to see if psychedelics in any way can substitute meditative states, nor do I use psychedelics anymore, but that is my only experiential reference for exalted states and has been the means I've used to imagine the states described in the Suttas.
@EverythingSpirals In my experience both with psychedelics and religious experiences, I find there is a lot of similarity between them; however, the psychedelic experience does not tend to be transformative; whereas, the religious experience tends to bring people to deeper commitment to the spiritual life, which in most cases leads the individual to a contemplative life.
@EverythingSpirals Therefore, I find the description of jhana and the ayatanas in the suttas to be a very good descriptions of the religious experience; however, the translations seem quite poor, so I have rendered my own translations of those suttas.
It would not do a newbie on the spiritual path any good to tell him that there is nothing to achieve. Most spiritual teachers would tailor their teachings to suit the needs of the aspirant. That's why mass produced teachings designed for mass consumption are mainly only scraping the surface of hardcore spirituality. The Lotus Sutra is more applicable to those who have reached the minimum level of the 6th chakra (3rd eye), because it teaches the way to open the last chakra.
@tohkimlin I recommend everyone go back to the Pali canon and dump all of the later sutras, like the Lotus sutra. It seems to help people lead a contemplative life instead of just being naive devotees of a corrupt priesthood.
@Jhananda You are already practising the teachings of the Lotus Sutra by creating this Youtube channel to share and discuss religious experience. Your views and replies to people reveal that you are sincere in your mission to help people on the fringe who would benefit from such a discourse. This is compassion for others without any expectation of reward or recognition. This is the way of the Bodhisattva ... the highest path exalted in the Lotus Sutra.
The Lotus Sutra teaches that the 'City of Light' (aka Phantom City) was created to give encouragement to the weary seekers, that the most wonderful treasure lies just beyond, and not to give up at this stage. In the supramundane we will pass the 'red shift', 'black wave' and finally reach 'clear light' (ie. Astral). Another name for the 'City of Light' is Nirvana. However this is not liberating in itself .... we have to return to being, and undo the fetters of our mind in contemplative repose.
@tohkimlin One thing about religion is not all of its doctrine is correct, because philosophical and language shift occurs, due to the unenlightened taking over the religion. Thus, we must read religious doctrine critically. I find, while the sutta pitaka has a high percentage of enlightened literature, Mahayana and Vajrayana literature is not as authentic, or accurate. So, I direct people back to the sutta pitaka. There we do not find the idea that one must reject any samadhi
@Jhananda Yup, doctrines and dogma are dead, and subject to misinterpretation .... actual experience is alive. I wouldn't use the word 'reject a samadhi' ... it's too harsh. We receive a divine gift or signal that we're heading in the right direction and we reject it? Actually we are thankful.
At the 4th level of absorption, it will be very easy to see that a yellow hologram (exact replica) is created out of a blue coloured object in our 3rd eye. Yellow objects yield blue holograms. Green objects yield red, and in white we will see black .... and vice-versa. Scientifically this is called the 'inversion of colours'; and even Microsoft Paint can prove that in the computer. In colour tone metrology, the LAB colour coordinates are determined by exactly these 3 pairs of colours.
@tohkimlin Actually, by the second jhana all of the meditation objects have fallen away and one is experiencing what St John of the Cross called 'contemplation.' In his description of contemplation we find great similitude to how Patanjali described samadhi, and SIddhartha Gautama described jhana.
@Jhananda You absolutely right that samadhi is sometimes overrated when it can also be experienced in a less dramatic fashion at different stages of our sadhana. It would be helpful to differentiate between seeded and unseeded samadhi. With unseeded samadhi or sahaja samadhi, meditation happens naturally .... and this can only be possible when we finally let go of the desire to attain anything else. With this comes the total acceptance of (i) What we are, & (ii) This present moment of NOW.
@tohkimlin One must get that samadhi is shades of gray from the first level of religious experience (samadhi) to the deepest. The 8 levels of samadhi, as described in the sutta pitaka (MN-26, 119), describe these 8 shades of gray. I find from the second jhana on that it is unseeded, because the mind must be stilled to experience the 2nd jhana and deeper.
@Jhananda Apologies, I made the mistake of equating Vajrayana's 8-levels of meditation to the experience of Jhana. You're absolutely right that by the 2nd jhana it is already unseeded. There is no direct correlation and with blurring overlaps between the stages. Meditative and spiritual experiences are largely subjective .
Here is a simple way to quantify jhana absorption. Take a physical object and look at it without blinking. After some time, you will see a mirage-like separation (1st stage). After that there will be 'wisps of smoke' appearing (2nd stage) above the object. 'Sparks' appear out of the 'smoke' and we see them flying at random motion like fireflies (3rd stage), and finally we will see the 'sparks' fuse into a 'burning flame' like in an oil lamp (4th stage). These are the 4 mundane stages of jhana.
@tohkimlin This sounds all very mentally projective. Those who experience authentic jhana tend to let go of all of the mental projections by the start of the second jhana, when the mind becomes still.
@Jhananda That's right, if we didn't let go of all other mental projections obscuring the mind, we would not be able to single-pointedly absorb the exact image of the object of meditation. That's what concentration on a single object is all about.
@tohkimlin well, first of all, not all meditation objects are visual, nor are all religious experiences (samadhi) visual. Some people experience charismatic sounds, some experience tactile charisms, some people experience olfactory charisms, and some people experience kinesthetic charisms. I happen to experience charisms in all of my sensory domain, so I conclude those who dive the deepest in samadhi tend to experience richer charismatic phenomena.
@Jhananda I agree with this. Enhanced perception of the 5 senses will invariably occur for the serious aspirant .... although some might not even realize that it is a direct result of the spiritual path, eg. sound of spinning chakras like a high pitched flute could be initially mistaken for an ear problem ... & a pungent smell with a strange sensation in the inner area of the nostrils could be mistaken for 'something burning in the air'. etc.
@tohkimlin Yes, people can get confused by the arising of the various charisms, and the Buddhist priesthood seems to be of no help. Nor are gurus any help. So, this is why I have created these videos.
@Jhananda You're right about the mental states of the different Jhanas. For the mind to fully absorb the object in concentration meditation, the mind has to become still at first, and let go of all other obscuring mental projections.
The question really is, why make the claims in the first place, and what relevance have these recollections had on your practice towards freedom from dukkha? They seem more of a trophy than anything.
@Somnilocus A lot people seem to think that the contemplative life is about burying their neuroses under a mountain of religiousity, or philosophical belief systems, or endless mental exercises. However, I have found from recalling my previous lifetimes during deep meditations I have acquired deep self-awareness into the origins of my neuroses, which has helped liberate me from that neuroses.
@TheApatheticGuy Yes, I receive many comments about Ajahn Brahmavamso's writing regarding jhana. We agree on some points, such as the ecstatic quality of jhana; however, I find he really does not understand the English terminology for mysticism, and suggest that he read some of the better known Christian mystics, such as Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross.
We do have a major disagreement in what actually is jhana. He seems to think jhana is just the arising of a luminous sphere, etc.
Well surely he's experiencing some kind of absorption sphere or state. What do you propose he actually may be experiencing if it's not jhana? And is it possible at all that jhana may work differently in the minds of different people, although leading to the same result eventually? I mean, surely there isn't one rigid, stiff method for attaining enlightenment.
@TheApatheticGuy Yes, I have experienced the luminous sphere many times; however, it comes after the 4 jhanas and just before the 4 immaterial attainments. Yes, the spiritual ecstasies are highly variable. Anyone who studies the mystics of the world will find that is true; however, there are common aspects to all spiritual experiences. The Buddha's description of the 4 jhanas represents this.
Very Interested in your insights...I have often considered trying to get to the source docs of Buddhism myself, because there tends to be such a broad translation of Buddhism in the west, conforming to the favored memes of the presenters. ..are the Pali scriptures the true original docs of Buddhism? Is there a good translation available?
@swamisnyc thank-you for posting your comment swamisync. Yes, the Pali Canon is the indisputable earliest literature of Buddhism; however, I find the translations are quite poor, so I am translating them myself. You can find my translations and others on the Great Western Vehicle website under Pali and Buddhist Literature Resources
@rolfeder I am aware of that; however, the look to the commentaries for their definition of jhana, and not to the suttas; and, as I have already pointed out, the commentaries are inaccurate in their description of jhana. So, I urge others to look at a good translation of the suttas that does not use the commentaries as for its interpretation of the suttas, for their understanding of jhana and other dhamma
Jhananda. Many teachers do not talk about jhana because it is not the goal of the Buddhist path. You are talking about the term as though it is the goal. The Buddha regarded jhana as merely a means but not an end. Buddhist teachers teach what is practical for their audiences. Generally, they teach wisdom based teachings or teachings to promote morality.
@BarbarraBay thank-you for posting your comment to this video; however, if you read the discourses of the Buddha, you will find in DN-22 the Buddha defined the 8th fold of his Noble Eightfold Path specifically in terms of jhana. We have to thus conclude that any priest who claims jhana is "not the goal of Buddhism" does not know the Buddha dhamma. The truth is, religion is preserved and defined by its priesthood, which in ALL cases has subverted the teachings of the progenitor.
@Jhananda Your claim is incorrect. Further DN 22 does not say this at all. You need to understand the Buddha's dhamma is divided into path (magga), phala (fruit) and Nibbana. The four jhanas merely are part of path. The goal of the Buddhism is Nibbana.
@BarbarraBay Actually, through a rigorous daily meditation practice and study of the dhamma for nearly 40 years, I have developed an excellent understanding of the dhamma. For instance, it appears you were looking at a flawed translation of DN-22, because in the 21st stanza it specifically defines that 8th fold of the N8P as jhana. Secondly, jhana is not practice (magga), because jhana is defined in the Samaññaphala Sutta (DN 2.62) as fruit (phala).
@Jhananda To insist the Buddha's dhamma is clearly expressed in DN is tenuous. It has been speculated by some scholars than the DN was compiled after the Buddha's death because the character of the suttas vary from the other Nikayas. Otherwise, it has been asserted the DN was primarly used for missionary work, to convert Brahmins (see Ajahn Sujato).
@BarbarraBay sammàsamàdhi is defined throughout the suttas in terms of jhana, so I do not just quote from the Long Discourses (DN), nor have I in this dialog with you.
@BarbarraBay However, ther Pali term 'sammasamadhi' is precisely the term used throughout the suttas for the 8th fold of the Noble Eightfold Path, and further it is always defined in terms of jhana, and jhana is always defined in ecstatic terms.
9. ..."One should know how to define bliss (piiti), and knowing that, one should pursue bliss within oneself"..."Here contemplatives...abides in 1-4th jhana. "This is called the bliss (piiti) of renunciation, the bliss of seclusion, the bliss of peace, the bliss of enlightenment. I say of this kind of bliss that it should be pursued, that it should be developed, that it should be cultivated, and that it should not be feared."
@BarbarraBay While most descriptions in the suttas for the 4th jhana do not specifically state bliss (piiti) is present; nonetheless the Seven Factors of Enlightenment (bojjhanga, sambojjhanaga) are defined in (DN 22, n.689, 33.2.3(2); MN 118. And, the fourth Factor of Enlightenment (bojjhanga) is bliss (piiti). Therefore bliss must be a factor of liberation (vimokha) and enlightenment (nibanna).
@Jhananda It follows regarding the matter of fruits, the fruits listed in DN 2.62 to a learned Buddhist are of a mundane nature. Some are 'supernormal' but still of a mundane nature. If we refer to SN 12.70 Susima Sutta, we can learn many arahants did not acquire these supernormal attainments.
@BarbarraBay the idea of mundane verses supramundane (lokuttara) attainment does not even exist in the suttas. They are strictly commentarial, therefore I reject them.
@Jhananda SN 45.36 refers to "asceticism" & its "fruits". 'Ascetiscism' is defined as the Noble Path (including jhana) & 'fruits' is defined as stream entry, once-returning, non-returning & Arahantship. These are all supramundane fruits connected with the realisation of 'not-self' or emptiness. This is the standard Buddhist understanding of phala or fruit. In Buddhism, jhana is a mundane attainment rather than supramundane (lokuttara).
@BarbarraBay while you argue that the Long Discourses (DN) came later in development, which I reject; nonetheless, your ideas of mundane verses supramundane (lokuttara) attainment do not even exist in the suttas. They are right out of the Abhidhamma and Visuddhimagga, which came centuries after the Buddha
@Jhananda The fruits of practise is freedom from "conceit". I am interested in discussing the Dhamma with you rather than your views about yourself, namely, " I have developed an excellent understanding of the dhamma". This kind of statement demonstrates conceit or mana. Let us please stick to the topic rather than boasting about the "I".
@BarbarraBay Hmm, so you do not value maintaining a daily meditation practice that has produced jhana for nearly 40 years as a valid qualification. This could explain why many people seem to think it is OK to be deeply disrespectful to me when I express views that differ from their own. I simply use the suttas as support for my personal experience. But, you reject my personal experience and argue your points with flawed translations and commentaries.
Your reactions to those who do not take you seriously or bow and kiss your feet are quite amusing. Anyone can claim they've practiced meditation producing jhana for 40 years and that they are enlightened etc. etc., but only someone who truly has can respond without offense, can listen to ridicule and criticism without it bruising their ego. Your responses speak of the worth of the path you proclaim leads to awakening. Your personal experience is useless to us, your supposed attainments are
@Somnilocus The devout always find criticism a direct affront to their emotional belief systems. However, the thing all religions lack is peer review. I am only offering a mystic's interpretation of Buddhist doctrine, its translation and interpretation.
@Jhananda In MN 111, the Venerable Sariputta, who possessed clarity of mind without peer, abided unattracted, unrepelled, independent, detached, free, disassociated, with mind rid of barriers is relation to jhana. His mind was not caught up in the bliss but instead sensed clearly the unconditioned Nibbana element. The sutta states "he understood, there is an escape beyond".
"Suppose that a wild deer is living in wilderness glen. Carefree it walks, carefree it stands, carefree it sits, carefree it lies down. Why is that? Because it has gone beyond the hunter's range. In the same way, a seeker of Buddhahood renounces ... achieves the first ecstasy. This contemplative is said to have blinded the Evil One. Trackless, he has destroyed Mara's vision and has become invisible to the Evil One.
@Jhananda Supramundane is defined in the Ani Sutta as "connected to emptiness (sunnata). We can pick and choose suttas that infer meaning but it is best to choose suttas that provide concise & direct definitions. Bye now.
@BarbarraBay Hmm, the Samyutta Nikaya is a big volume. How about a sutta number and volume # and/or link, so that we can all see whether your claim is true
@Jhananda As advised, the DN was for missionary work, to convert Brahmins, Hindus, etc. The DN seeks to assert Buddhism's superiority over these other doctrines. This is why its subject matters are often about Brahma & other mundane matters such as mystical powers.The SN is for bhikkhus. The DN is for children.
@BarbarraBay Well, I would say that about the Abhidhamma and Visuddhimagga
Satipatthana Samyutta (SN 8) (8) The Competent Cook,
Suppose, contemplatives, a...competent...cook were to present a king...with various kinds of curriesthat competentcook observes the sign of his masters preferences. So too, monks, here some wise...monk dwells contemplating...he becomes absorbed (jhana), his corruptions (nivarana) are abandoned, he picks up the sign (nimitta)...of absorption (jhana).
@BarbarraBay In 10 years of debating dhamma with Buddhist priests, monks, meditation teachers and scholars I have not once heard that the Samyutta Nikaya was just for monks (bhikkhus) while the Digha and Majjhima Nikayas were for "converting Brahmins, Hindus." In fact I found the Buddhist priests, monks, meditation teachers and scholars that I debated with quoted freely from all four Nikayas.
@Jhananda MN 29 & 30 state the Holy Life has only one goal (not samadhi), namely, the unshakeable freedom of mind. MN 117 states right concentration leads to right (insight) knowledge & right knowledge leads to right liberation. MN 117 mentions the ten factored path for the fully enlightened being.
@BarbarraBay except in ND-22.21 right "concentration" is defined as jhana.
Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN 22.22)
(1st Jhana)
[22]"And what, seekers of Buddhahood, is right concentration (samma-samadhi)? There is the case where a contemplative renounces sensuality, and renounces unwholesome mental states and beliefs with applied and sustained attention and bliss and joy one resides in the clarity of the first ecstasy (jhana).
@BarbarraBay Of course I did not miss MN 117, because I made a thorough study of the suttas, and taught myself Pali and have translated a number of suttas for myself.
So, since I do not agree with you, you are now going to call my 37 years of daily meditation and dhamma study, and my 10 years of celibacy into question and accuse me of an inferior attitude. This sounds like a Ad Hominem fallacy to me.
"So this holy life does not have gain, honor, virtue, concentration or knowledge & vision as its benefit. But it is this unshakeable deliverance of mind that is the goal of this holy life, its heartwood & its end." (Majjhima Nikaya Sutta 29: The Greater Discourse on the Simile of the Heartwood).
@BarbarraBay While, arguably in the heartwood suttas liberation (vimokha) is the goal of the Buddha's philosophy; nonetheless, according to this sutta, one has to have samma-samadhi first, which he defined as jhana in DN-22, before one can have knowledge & vision, which comes before liberation (vimokha). Thus, without jhana, then all one has is just a handful of leaves.
@Jhananda I am unconcerned how long you have been involved with spiritual matters. There have been 20 year, 30 year monks who have disrobed & sought the warmth of a woman due to lacking samadhi. There are stream-enters upon first hearing & applying the teachings. When the Venerable Sariputta emerged from various jhanas, he said it never once crossed his mind "I attained", "I emerged", etc. SN 28.1 - 9
@BarbarraBay You state, "There have been 20 year, 30 year monks who have disrobed & sought the warmth of a woman due to lacking samadhi." appears to support my premises that the attainment of jhana is central to the Buddha's teaching (dhamma), because, according to him, attaining jhana "blinded Mara."
@Jhananda In short, there are at least eleven suttas in the Samyutta Nikaya (SN) which discussed phala or fruit. Each of the suttas defines fruit as one, two or four supramundane attainments. One sutta in the DN does not over-ride the suttas in the other Nikayas.
@BarbarraBay The claim that some of these fruit are mundane is pure dogma with no suttic support. They are all supramundane. The fruit (phala) are described in these suttas: DN 2, MN 36, 108, 119
(25)(e) when he has properly grasped the sign of ecstasy (samadhi-nimittam)... At this joy (sukha) arises in him, and from this joy (sukha), [bliss (piti) arises); and by this (bliss) his senses are calmed, he feels happiness as a result, and with this happiness his mind is established.
@Jhananda "through decades of fruitful meditation I have recovered all of my previous lifetimes." Recalling past lives is not "fruitful meditation," unless you mean rotten fruit you've picked from the trash. In fact, it is utterly useless. The suttas deny its relevance to attaining nibbana. They deny that a person who has been released dwells in the jhanas. [SN 12.70]
@Somnilocus That is an interesting interpretation of the suttas. The suttas I have studied have frequent references to the fruit of the contemplative life (Samaññaphala), and the recollection of previous lifetimes.
@Jhananda it's not much of an interpretation: "Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you recollect your manifold past lives (lit: previous homes), i.e., one birth, two births, three births... one hundred thousand births, many aeons of cosmic contraction & expansion, [recollecting], 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance... Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. ?"
"No, friend... we are released through discernment."
@Somnilocus Recollection of past lives: s. Patisandhi, paticcasamuppada) pubbenivásánussati. See: 'remembrance of former births'. See: DN 2; 15; MN-119, etc
@Jhananda please highlight in any of those suttas where it states that it's -necessary- for realizing nibbana. Where its necessity is discussed (i.e. in the sutta I just referenced), it is denied as being necessary. It is stated that one is simply "released through discernment." But if you want to get into it, pubbenivasa as mentioned above means past dwellings (which could be argued to extend into past lives, but not necessarily). Paticcasamuppada has nothing to do with rebirth or recollecting
@Somnilocus I do not believe at any time that I stated that it was "necessary for realizing Nibbana to recollect Former Lives; however, it is stated in DN 2; 12; 15 and other suttas that doing so is a "fruit of the contemplative life" Samaññaphala Sutta (DN 2)
(Recollection of Past Lives)
"With his mind thus absorbed (samadhi)... he directs and inclines it to knowledge of the recollection of past lives..."
@Jhananda My question was rhetorical; you seem to favour the DN. XD
Once again it is recollection of -past dwellings-. Recollections of past clingings to the aggregates as "self/mine" is all you're doing. You do that constantly in this very life. See Khajjaniya Sutta.
Again, the Susima sutta states that all the men being addressed there were awakened yet had no supernormal powers.
@Somnilocus I site the DN and MN primarily, because they seem to me to be the earliest form of the Sutta Pitaka. I have sited sources from the MN several times for you, but you seem to not recognize that, so see MN 119 below.
Kayagata-sati Sutta (MN 119)
Mindfulness of the Body
[8] Recollects his manifold past lives
"He recollects his manifold past lives (lit: previous homes), i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty...
@BarbarraBay If one were to search any archive of the Pali canon for the terms lokuttara or lokuttarā, then one will find that only references to the Abhidhamma appear, which suggests that the entire concept of lokuttara is purely commentarial
No AlexLost01, my experiences with the meditation absorption experiences that are represented by jhana and samadhi are not the product of any drug. Instead they are the product of skilfull and rigorous meditation.
At SN 48.9, the Buddha states right concentration has relinquishment as its sole object. In MN 117, the Buddha states there is wrong samadhi and right samadhi. Any samadhi imbuded with attachment & infatuation is wrong samadhi. I would suggest reading MN 111 to learn how the Venerable Sariputta related to jhana.
Jhananda. Your position that samadhi should emphasis bliss is untenable. The suttas end with the fourth jhana, where bliss has ceased & there remains only mindfulness & equinimity, to be used for insight. The term samadhi means 'singleness of mind'. In Buddhism the single object of samadhi is relinqishment or non-attachment towards the five aggregates, which includes jhana.
@BarbarraBay the fourth of the Seven Factors of Enlightenment (bojjhanga, sambojjhanaga) is Bliss (piiti); therefore bliss most certainly does not go away when one becomes enlightened, according to the Buddha.
@BarbarraBay I have made a thorough study of the DN, MN and SN, jhana is always defined in terms of renunciation. No where in the suttas is it ever stated that there is a "wrong jhana."
Jhanasamyutta SN 9.53
"Bhikkhus, there are these 5 fetters...The four meditative absorptions (jhanas) are to be developed for direct knowledge of these five higher fetters, for the full understanding of them, for their utter destruction, for their abandoning."
@BarbarraBay except, according to the suttas, there is no NIbbana without jhana. Mahaasaccaka sutta (MN 36)
"It occurred to me: Doing these difficult exertions, I will not attain (enlightenment). There should be some other method for the realization of enlightenment. Then, I recalled the experience under the shade of the rose apple tree near my fathers field... [he experiences the first ecstasy (jhana)]. Then wisdom arose in him this is the path to enlightenment. "
Hello Dada, good to hear from you again. Yes, I recall the dialog. Yes, I agree, many people find a brush with bliss disconcerting. I believe the fear comes from not having a context for the experience.
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How does Jhana compare to the psychedelic experience? Is it at all similar, or contain similar aspects? I am not asking to see if psychedelics in any way can substitute meditative states, nor do I use psychedelics anymore, but that is my only experiential reference for exalted states and has been the means I've used to imagine the states described in the Suttas.
EverythingSpirals 1 month ago in playlist Spiritual Experience
@EverythingSpirals In my experience both with psychedelics and religious experiences, I find there is a lot of similarity between them; however, the psychedelic experience does not tend to be transformative; whereas, the religious experience tends to bring people to deeper commitment to the spiritual life, which in most cases leads the individual to a contemplative life.
Jhananda 1 month ago
@EverythingSpirals Therefore, I find the description of jhana and the ayatanas in the suttas to be a very good descriptions of the religious experience; however, the translations seem quite poor, so I have rendered my own translations of those suttas.
Jhananda 1 month ago
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EverythingSpirals 1 month ago in playlist Spiritual Experience
It would not do a newbie on the spiritual path any good to tell him that there is nothing to achieve. Most spiritual teachers would tailor their teachings to suit the needs of the aspirant. That's why mass produced teachings designed for mass consumption are mainly only scraping the surface of hardcore spirituality. The Lotus Sutra is more applicable to those who have reached the minimum level of the 6th chakra (3rd eye), because it teaches the way to open the last chakra.
tohkimlin 2 months ago
@tohkimlin I recommend everyone go back to the Pali canon and dump all of the later sutras, like the Lotus sutra. It seems to help people lead a contemplative life instead of just being naive devotees of a corrupt priesthood.
Jhananda 2 months ago
@Jhananda You are already practising the teachings of the Lotus Sutra by creating this Youtube channel to share and discuss religious experience. Your views and replies to people reveal that you are sincere in your mission to help people on the fringe who would benefit from such a discourse. This is compassion for others without any expectation of reward or recognition. This is the way of the Bodhisattva ... the highest path exalted in the Lotus Sutra.
tohkimlin 2 months ago
The Lotus Sutra teaches that the 'City of Light' (aka Phantom City) was created to give encouragement to the weary seekers, that the most wonderful treasure lies just beyond, and not to give up at this stage. In the supramundane we will pass the 'red shift', 'black wave' and finally reach 'clear light' (ie. Astral). Another name for the 'City of Light' is Nirvana. However this is not liberating in itself .... we have to return to being, and undo the fetters of our mind in contemplative repose.
tohkimlin 2 months ago
@tohkimlin One thing about religion is not all of its doctrine is correct, because philosophical and language shift occurs, due to the unenlightened taking over the religion. Thus, we must read religious doctrine critically. I find, while the sutta pitaka has a high percentage of enlightened literature, Mahayana and Vajrayana literature is not as authentic, or accurate. So, I direct people back to the sutta pitaka. There we do not find the idea that one must reject any samadhi
Jhananda 2 months ago
@Jhananda Yup, doctrines and dogma are dead, and subject to misinterpretation .... actual experience is alive. I wouldn't use the word 'reject a samadhi' ... it's too harsh. We receive a divine gift or signal that we're heading in the right direction and we reject it? Actually we are thankful.
tohkimlin 2 months ago
At the 4th level of absorption, it will be very easy to see that a yellow hologram (exact replica) is created out of a blue coloured object in our 3rd eye. Yellow objects yield blue holograms. Green objects yield red, and in white we will see black .... and vice-versa. Scientifically this is called the 'inversion of colours'; and even Microsoft Paint can prove that in the computer. In colour tone metrology, the LAB colour coordinates are determined by exactly these 3 pairs of colours.
tohkimlin 2 months ago
@tohkimlin Actually, by the second jhana all of the meditation objects have fallen away and one is experiencing what St John of the Cross called 'contemplation.' In his description of contemplation we find great similitude to how Patanjali described samadhi, and SIddhartha Gautama described jhana.
Jhananda 2 months ago
@Jhananda You absolutely right that samadhi is sometimes overrated when it can also be experienced in a less dramatic fashion at different stages of our sadhana. It would be helpful to differentiate between seeded and unseeded samadhi. With unseeded samadhi or sahaja samadhi, meditation happens naturally .... and this can only be possible when we finally let go of the desire to attain anything else. With this comes the total acceptance of (i) What we are, & (ii) This present moment of NOW.
tohkimlin 2 months ago in playlist Ecstatic Buddhism
@tohkimlin One must get that samadhi is shades of gray from the first level of religious experience (samadhi) to the deepest. The 8 levels of samadhi, as described in the sutta pitaka (MN-26, 119), describe these 8 shades of gray. I find from the second jhana on that it is unseeded, because the mind must be stilled to experience the 2nd jhana and deeper.
Jhananda 2 months ago
@Jhananda Apologies, I made the mistake of equating Vajrayana's 8-levels of meditation to the experience of Jhana. You're absolutely right that by the 2nd jhana it is already unseeded. There is no direct correlation and with blurring overlaps between the stages. Meditative and spiritual experiences are largely subjective .
tohkimlin 2 months ago
Here is a simple way to quantify jhana absorption. Take a physical object and look at it without blinking. After some time, you will see a mirage-like separation (1st stage). After that there will be 'wisps of smoke' appearing (2nd stage) above the object. 'Sparks' appear out of the 'smoke' and we see them flying at random motion like fireflies (3rd stage), and finally we will see the 'sparks' fuse into a 'burning flame' like in an oil lamp (4th stage). These are the 4 mundane stages of jhana.
tohkimlin 2 months ago
@tohkimlin This sounds all very mentally projective. Those who experience authentic jhana tend to let go of all of the mental projections by the start of the second jhana, when the mind becomes still.
Jhananda 2 months ago
@Jhananda That's right, if we didn't let go of all other mental projections obscuring the mind, we would not be able to single-pointedly absorb the exact image of the object of meditation. That's what concentration on a single object is all about.
tohkimlin 2 months ago in playlist Ecstatic Buddhism
@tohkimlin well, first of all, not all meditation objects are visual, nor are all religious experiences (samadhi) visual. Some people experience charismatic sounds, some experience tactile charisms, some people experience olfactory charisms, and some people experience kinesthetic charisms. I happen to experience charisms in all of my sensory domain, so I conclude those who dive the deepest in samadhi tend to experience richer charismatic phenomena.
Jhananda 2 months ago
@Jhananda I agree with this. Enhanced perception of the 5 senses will invariably occur for the serious aspirant .... although some might not even realize that it is a direct result of the spiritual path, eg. sound of spinning chakras like a high pitched flute could be initially mistaken for an ear problem ... & a pungent smell with a strange sensation in the inner area of the nostrils could be mistaken for 'something burning in the air'. etc.
tohkimlin 2 months ago
@tohkimlin Yes, people can get confused by the arising of the various charisms, and the Buddhist priesthood seems to be of no help. Nor are gurus any help. So, this is why I have created these videos.
Jhananda 2 months ago
@Jhananda You're right about the mental states of the different Jhanas. For the mind to fully absorb the object in concentration meditation, the mind has to become still at first, and let go of all other obscuring mental projections.
tohkimlin 2 months ago in playlist Ecstatic Buddhism
The question really is, why make the claims in the first place, and what relevance have these recollections had on your practice towards freedom from dukkha? They seem more of a trophy than anything.
Somnilocus 1 year ago
@Somnilocus A lot people seem to think that the contemplative life is about burying their neuroses under a mountain of religiousity, or philosophical belief systems, or endless mental exercises. However, I have found from recalling my previous lifetimes during deep meditations I have acquired deep self-awareness into the origins of my neuroses, which has helped liberate me from that neuroses.
Jhananda 1 year ago
I'm sure you get this all the time, but how do you feel about Ajahn Brahmavamso and his teachings of the jhanas?
TheApatheticGuy 1 year ago
@TheApatheticGuy Yes, I receive many comments about Ajahn Brahmavamso's writing regarding jhana. We agree on some points, such as the ecstatic quality of jhana; however, I find he really does not understand the English terminology for mysticism, and suggest that he read some of the better known Christian mystics, such as Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross.
We do have a major disagreement in what actually is jhana. He seems to think jhana is just the arising of a luminous sphere, etc.
Jhananda 1 year ago
@Jhananda
Well surely he's experiencing some kind of absorption sphere or state. What do you propose he actually may be experiencing if it's not jhana? And is it possible at all that jhana may work differently in the minds of different people, although leading to the same result eventually? I mean, surely there isn't one rigid, stiff method for attaining enlightenment.
(Not arguing, just generally curious.)
TheApatheticGuy 1 year ago
@TheApatheticGuy Yes, I have experienced the luminous sphere many times; however, it comes after the 4 jhanas and just before the 4 immaterial attainments. Yes, the spiritual ecstasies are highly variable. Anyone who studies the mystics of the world will find that is true; however, there are common aspects to all spiritual experiences. The Buddha's description of the 4 jhanas represents this.
Jhananda 1 year ago
Very Interested in your insights...I have often considered trying to get to the source docs of Buddhism myself, because there tends to be such a broad translation of Buddhism in the west, conforming to the favored memes of the presenters. ..are the Pali scriptures the true original docs of Buddhism? Is there a good translation available?
swamisnyc 1 year ago
@swamisnyc thank-you for posting your comment swamisync. Yes, the Pali Canon is the indisputable earliest literature of Buddhism; however, I find the translations are quite poor, so I am translating them myself. You can find my translations and others on the Great Western Vehicle website under Pali and Buddhist Literature Resources
Jhananda 1 year ago
@rolfeder I am aware of that; however, the look to the commentaries for their definition of jhana, and not to the suttas; and, as I have already pointed out, the commentaries are inaccurate in their description of jhana. So, I urge others to look at a good translation of the suttas that does not use the commentaries as for its interpretation of the suttas, for their understanding of jhana and other dhamma
Jhananda 1 year ago
Jhananda. Many teachers do not talk about jhana because it is not the goal of the Buddhist path. You are talking about the term as though it is the goal. The Buddha regarded jhana as merely a means but not an end. Buddhist teachers teach what is practical for their audiences. Generally, they teach wisdom based teachings or teachings to promote morality.
BarbarraBay 1 year ago
@BarbarraBay thank-you for posting your comment to this video; however, if you read the discourses of the Buddha, you will find in DN-22 the Buddha defined the 8th fold of his Noble Eightfold Path specifically in terms of jhana. We have to thus conclude that any priest who claims jhana is "not the goal of Buddhism" does not know the Buddha dhamma. The truth is, religion is preserved and defined by its priesthood, which in ALL cases has subverted the teachings of the progenitor.
Jhananda 1 year ago
@Jhananda Your claim is incorrect. Further DN 22 does not say this at all. You need to understand the Buddha's dhamma is divided into path (magga), phala (fruit) and Nibbana. The four jhanas merely are part of path. The goal of the Buddhism is Nibbana.
BarbarraBay 1 year ago
@BarbarraBay Actually, through a rigorous daily meditation practice and study of the dhamma for nearly 40 years, I have developed an excellent understanding of the dhamma. For instance, it appears you were looking at a flawed translation of DN-22, because in the 21st stanza it specifically defines that 8th fold of the N8P as jhana. Secondly, jhana is not practice (magga), because jhana is defined in the Samaññaphala Sutta (DN 2.62) as fruit (phala).
Jhananda 1 year ago
@Jhananda To insist the Buddha's dhamma is clearly expressed in DN is tenuous. It has been speculated by some scholars than the DN was compiled after the Buddha's death because the character of the suttas vary from the other Nikayas. Otherwise, it has been asserted the DN was primarly used for missionary work, to convert Brahmins (see Ajahn Sujato).
BarbarraBay 1 year ago
@BarbarraBay sammàsamàdhi is defined throughout the suttas in terms of jhana, so I do not just quote from the Long Discourses (DN), nor have I in this dialog with you.
Jhananda 1 year ago
@Jhananda I do not dispute that. But sammasamadhi is exactly that. Merely samadhi. It is not supramundane fruit.
BarbarraBay 1 year ago
@BarbarraBay However, ther Pali term 'sammasamadhi' is precisely the term used throughout the suttas for the 8th fold of the Noble Eightfold Path, and further it is always defined in terms of jhana, and jhana is always defined in ecstatic terms.
Jhananda 1 year ago
@Jhananda If that is the case, please define the 4th jhana?
BarbarraBay 1 year ago
@BarbarraBay Aranavibhanga Sutta, MN 139
9. ..."One should know how to define bliss (piiti), and knowing that, one should pursue bliss within oneself"..."Here contemplatives...abides in 1-4th jhana. "This is called the bliss (piiti) of renunciation, the bliss of seclusion, the bliss of peace, the bliss of enlightenment. I say of this kind of bliss that it should be pursued, that it should be developed, that it should be cultivated, and that it should not be feared."
Jhananda 1 year ago
@Jhananda 4th jhana = "only equinimity, purified, bright, malleable, wieldly & radiant"
BarbarraBay 1 year ago
@BarbarraBay While most descriptions in the suttas for the 4th jhana do not specifically state bliss (piiti) is present; nonetheless the Seven Factors of Enlightenment (bojjhanga, sambojjhanaga) are defined in (DN 22, n.689, 33.2.3(2); MN 118. And, the fourth Factor of Enlightenment (bojjhanga) is bliss (piiti). Therefore bliss must be a factor of liberation (vimokha) and enlightenment (nibanna).
Jhananda 1 year ago
@Jhananda It follows regarding the matter of fruits, the fruits listed in DN 2.62 to a learned Buddhist are of a mundane nature. Some are 'supernormal' but still of a mundane nature. If we refer to SN 12.70 Susima Sutta, we can learn many arahants did not acquire these supernormal attainments.
BarbarraBay 1 year ago
@BarbarraBay the idea of mundane verses supramundane (lokuttara) attainment does not even exist in the suttas. They are strictly commentarial, therefore I reject them.
Jhananda 1 year ago
@Jhananda SN 45.36 refers to "asceticism" & its "fruits". 'Ascetiscism' is defined as the Noble Path (including jhana) & 'fruits' is defined as stream entry, once-returning, non-returning & Arahantship. These are all supramundane fruits connected with the realisation of 'not-self' or emptiness. This is the standard Buddhist understanding of phala or fruit. In Buddhism, jhana is a mundane attainment rather than supramundane (lokuttara).
BarbarraBay 1 year ago
@BarbarraBay while you argue that the Long Discourses (DN) came later in development, which I reject; nonetheless, your ideas of mundane verses supramundane (lokuttara) attainment do not even exist in the suttas. They are right out of the Abhidhamma and Visuddhimagga, which came centuries after the Buddha
Jhananda 1 year ago
@Jhananda The fruits of practise is freedom from "conceit". I am interested in discussing the Dhamma with you rather than your views about yourself, namely, " I have developed an excellent understanding of the dhamma". This kind of statement demonstrates conceit or mana. Let us please stick to the topic rather than boasting about the "I".
BarbarraBay 1 year ago
@BarbarraBay Hmm, so you do not value maintaining a daily meditation practice that has produced jhana for nearly 40 years as a valid qualification. This could explain why many people seem to think it is OK to be deeply disrespectful to me when I express views that differ from their own. I simply use the suttas as support for my personal experience. But, you reject my personal experience and argue your points with flawed translations and commentaries.
Jhananda 1 year ago
Your reactions to those who do not take you seriously or bow and kiss your feet are quite amusing. Anyone can claim they've practiced meditation producing jhana for 40 years and that they are enlightened etc. etc., but only someone who truly has can respond without offense, can listen to ridicule and criticism without it bruising their ego. Your responses speak of the worth of the path you proclaim leads to awakening. Your personal experience is useless to us, your supposed attainments are
Somnilocus 1 year ago
@Somnilocus The devout always find criticism a direct affront to their emotional belief systems. However, the thing all religions lack is peer review. I am only offering a mystic's interpretation of Buddhist doctrine, its translation and interpretation.
Jhananda 1 year ago
@Jhananda In MN 111, the Venerable Sariputta, who possessed clarity of mind without peer, abided unattracted, unrepelled, independent, detached, free, disassociated, with mind rid of barriers is relation to jhana. His mind was not caught up in the bliss but instead sensed clearly the unconditioned Nibbana element. The sutta states "he understood, there is an escape beyond".
BarbarraBay 1 year ago
Ariyapariyesana Sutta (MN 26.28)
"Suppose that a wild deer is living in wilderness glen. Carefree it walks, carefree it stands, carefree it sits, carefree it lies down. Why is that? Because it has gone beyond the hunter's range. In the same way, a seeker of Buddhahood renounces ... achieves the first ecstasy. This contemplative is said to have blinded the Evil One. Trackless, he has destroyed Mara's vision and has become invisible to the Evil One.
Jhananda 1 year ago
@Jhananda Supramundane is defined in the Ani Sutta as "connected to emptiness (sunnata). We can pick and choose suttas that infer meaning but it is best to choose suttas that provide concise & direct definitions. Bye now.
BarbarraBay 1 year ago
@BarbarraBay Hmm, the Samyutta Nikaya is a big volume. How about a sutta number and volume # and/or link, so that we can all see whether your claim is true
Jhananda 1 year ago
@Jhananda As advised, the DN was for missionary work, to convert Brahmins, Hindus, etc. The DN seeks to assert Buddhism's superiority over these other doctrines. This is why its subject matters are often about Brahma & other mundane matters such as mystical powers.The SN is for bhikkhus. The DN is for children.
BarbarraBay 1 year ago
@BarbarraBay Well, I would say that about the Abhidhamma and Visuddhimagga
Satipatthana Samyutta (SN 8) (8) The Competent Cook,
Suppose, contemplatives, a...competent...cook were to present a king...with various kinds of curriesthat competentcook observes the sign of his masters preferences. So too, monks, here some wise...monk dwells contemplating...he becomes absorbed (jhana), his corruptions (nivarana) are abandoned, he picks up the sign (nimitta)...of absorption (jhana).
Jhananda 1 year ago
@BarbarraBay In 10 years of debating dhamma with Buddhist priests, monks, meditation teachers and scholars I have not once heard that the Samyutta Nikaya was just for monks (bhikkhus) while the Digha and Majjhima Nikayas were for "converting Brahmins, Hindus." In fact I found the Buddhist priests, monks, meditation teachers and scholars that I debated with quoted freely from all four Nikayas.
Jhananda 1 year ago
@Jhananda MN 29 & 30 state the Holy Life has only one goal (not samadhi), namely, the unshakeable freedom of mind. MN 117 states right concentration leads to right (insight) knowledge & right knowledge leads to right liberation. MN 117 mentions the ten factored path for the fully enlightened being.
BarbarraBay 1 year ago
@BarbarraBay except in ND-22.21 right "concentration" is defined as jhana.
Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN 22.22)
(1st Jhana)
[22]"And what, seekers of Buddhahood, is right concentration (samma-samadhi)? There is the case where a contemplative renounces sensuality, and renounces unwholesome mental states and beliefs with applied and sustained attention and bliss and joy one resides in the clarity of the first ecstasy (jhana).
Jhananda 1 year ago
@Jhananda Obviously, you missed MN 117. I am happy to hear you focus on "renunciation". However, your attitude does not give this impression.
BarbarraBay 1 year ago
@BarbarraBay Of course I did not miss MN 117, because I made a thorough study of the suttas, and taught myself Pali and have translated a number of suttas for myself.
So, since I do not agree with you, you are now going to call my 37 years of daily meditation and dhamma study, and my 10 years of celibacy into question and accuse me of an inferior attitude. This sounds like a Ad Hominem fallacy to me.
Jhananda 1 year ago
"So this holy life does not have gain, honor, virtue, concentration or knowledge & vision as its benefit. But it is this unshakeable deliverance of mind that is the goal of this holy life, its heartwood & its end." (Majjhima Nikaya Sutta 29: The Greater Discourse on the Simile of the Heartwood).
BarbarraBay 1 year ago
@BarbarraBay While, arguably in the heartwood suttas liberation (vimokha) is the goal of the Buddha's philosophy; nonetheless, according to this sutta, one has to have samma-samadhi first, which he defined as jhana in DN-22, before one can have knowledge & vision, which comes before liberation (vimokha). Thus, without jhana, then all one has is just a handful of leaves.
Jhananda 1 year ago
@Jhananda I am unconcerned how long you have been involved with spiritual matters. There have been 20 year, 30 year monks who have disrobed & sought the warmth of a woman due to lacking samadhi. There are stream-enters upon first hearing & applying the teachings. When the Venerable Sariputta emerged from various jhanas, he said it never once crossed his mind "I attained", "I emerged", etc. SN 28.1 - 9
BarbarraBay 1 year ago
@BarbarraBay You state, "There have been 20 year, 30 year monks who have disrobed & sought the warmth of a woman due to lacking samadhi." appears to support my premises that the attainment of jhana is central to the Buddha's teaching (dhamma), because, according to him, attaining jhana "blinded Mara."
Jhananda 1 year ago
@Jhananda In short, there are at least eleven suttas in the Samyutta Nikaya (SN) which discussed phala or fruit. Each of the suttas defines fruit as one, two or four supramundane attainments. One sutta in the DN does not over-ride the suttas in the other Nikayas.
BarbarraBay 1 year ago
@BarbarraBay The claim that some of these fruit are mundane is pure dogma with no suttic support. They are all supramundane. The fruit (phala) are described in these suttas: DN 2, MN 36, 108, 119
Jhananda 1 year ago
@Jhananda Nice chatting with you Jhananda. Keep up the good work. May you be happy & bring happiness to others. With kindness.
BarbarraBay 1 year ago
@BarbarraBay Sangiti Sutta (DN 33.2.1.25)
(25)(e) when he has properly grasped the sign of ecstasy (samadhi-nimittam)... At this joy (sukha) arises in him, and from this joy (sukha), [bliss (piti) arises); and by this (bliss) his senses are calmed, he feels happiness as a result, and with this happiness his mind is established.
Jhananda 1 year ago
@Jhananda Merely look up the SN index under "fruit" if you have a hard copy. I already quoted SN 45.35 for you.
BarbarraBay 1 year ago
@Jhananda Do you believe in rebirth? Past lives, future lives? Reincarnation?
BarbarraBay 1 year ago
@BarbarraBay through decades of fruitful meditation I have recovered all of my previous lifetimes.
Jhananda 1 year ago
@Jhananda "through decades of fruitful meditation I have recovered all of my previous lifetimes." Recalling past lives is not "fruitful meditation," unless you mean rotten fruit you've picked from the trash. In fact, it is utterly useless. The suttas deny its relevance to attaining nibbana. They deny that a person who has been released dwells in the jhanas. [SN 12.70]
Somnilocus 1 year ago
@Somnilocus That is an interesting interpretation of the suttas. The suttas I have studied have frequent references to the fruit of the contemplative life (Samaññaphala), and the recollection of previous lifetimes.
Jhananda 1 year ago
@Jhananda it's not much of an interpretation: "Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you recollect your manifold past lives (lit: previous homes), i.e., one birth, two births, three births... one hundred thousand births, many aeons of cosmic contraction & expansion, [recollecting], 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance... Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. ?"
"No, friend... we are released through discernment."
I.e. not necessary.
Somnilocus 1 year ago
@Somnilocus Recollection of past lives: s. Patisandhi, paticcasamuppada) pubbenivásánussati. See: 'remembrance of former births'. See: DN 2; 15; MN-119, etc
Jhananda 1 year ago
@Jhananda please highlight in any of those suttas where it states that it's -necessary- for realizing nibbana. Where its necessity is discussed (i.e. in the sutta I just referenced), it is denied as being necessary. It is stated that one is simply "released through discernment." But if you want to get into it, pubbenivasa as mentioned above means past dwellings (which could be argued to extend into past lives, but not necessarily). Paticcasamuppada has nothing to do with rebirth or recollecting
Somnilocus 1 year ago
@Somnilocus I do not believe at any time that I stated that it was "necessary for realizing Nibbana to recollect Former Lives; however, it is stated in DN 2; 12; 15 and other suttas that doing so is a "fruit of the contemplative life" Samaññaphala Sutta (DN 2)
(Recollection of Past Lives)
"With his mind thus absorbed (samadhi)... he directs and inclines it to knowledge of the recollection of past lives..."
Jhananda 1 year ago
@Jhananda can you reference anything other than DN?
Somnilocus 1 year ago
@Somnilocus Lohicca Sutta (DN 12)
(Recollection of Past Lives)
"With his mind thus concentrated... he directs & inclines it to knowledge of the recollection of past lives...
See also: Digha Nikaya 1.1.31ff, 2.93, 24.2.18ff, 25.18ff, 28.15ff, 33.1.10(58), 33.1.11(30), 34.1.7(10) 34, 14.2.18ff, 15.1ff
Majjhima Nikaya (MN): 1.171, 11.16, 26.19, 28.28, 38.9ff, 38.16ff, 75.24f, 79.7, 98.13, 115.11
Jhananda 1 year ago
@Jhananda My question was rhetorical; you seem to favour the DN. XD
Once again it is recollection of -past dwellings-. Recollections of past clingings to the aggregates as "self/mine" is all you're doing. You do that constantly in this very life. See Khajjaniya Sutta.
Again, the Susima sutta states that all the men being addressed there were awakened yet had no supernormal powers.
Somnilocus 1 year ago
@Somnilocus I site the DN and MN primarily, because they seem to me to be the earliest form of the Sutta Pitaka. I have sited sources from the MN several times for you, but you seem to not recognize that, so see MN 119 below.
Kayagata-sati Sutta (MN 119)
Mindfulness of the Body
[8] Recollects his manifold past lives
"He recollects his manifold past lives (lit: previous homes), i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty...
Jhananda 1 year ago
@Jhananda ...recollecting past lives - where are you getting that from? "Patisandhi" - could you give an example in the suttas? Thanks.
Somnilocus 1 year ago
@Jhananda lokaṃ parañca lokaṃ sammādiṭṭhi ariyā anāsavā lokuttarā maggaṅgā.
BarbarraBay 1 year ago
@BarbarraBay If one were to search any archive of the Pali canon for the terms lokuttara or lokuttarā, then one will find that only references to the Abhidhamma appear, which suggests that the entire concept of lokuttara is purely commentarial
Jhananda 1 year ago
Keep it up good talk
humaner 2 years ago
Are you on drugs?
AlexLost01 2 years ago
No AlexLost01, my experiences with the meditation absorption experiences that are represented by jhana and samadhi are not the product of any drug. Instead they are the product of skilfull and rigorous meditation.
Jhananda 2 years ago
At SN 48.9, the Buddha states right concentration has relinquishment as its sole object. In MN 117, the Buddha states there is wrong samadhi and right samadhi. Any samadhi imbuded with attachment & infatuation is wrong samadhi. I would suggest reading MN 111 to learn how the Venerable Sariputta related to jhana.
BarbarraBay 1 year ago
Jhananda. Your position that samadhi should emphasis bliss is untenable. The suttas end with the fourth jhana, where bliss has ceased & there remains only mindfulness & equinimity, to be used for insight. The term samadhi means 'singleness of mind'. In Buddhism the single object of samadhi is relinqishment or non-attachment towards the five aggregates, which includes jhana.
BarbarraBay 1 year ago
@BarbarraBay the fourth of the Seven Factors of Enlightenment (bojjhanga, sambojjhanaga) is Bliss (piiti); therefore bliss most certainly does not go away when one becomes enlightened, according to the Buddha.
Jhananda 1 year ago
@BarbarraBay I have made a thorough study of the DN, MN and SN, jhana is always defined in terms of renunciation. No where in the suttas is it ever stated that there is a "wrong jhana."
Jhanasamyutta SN 9.53
"Bhikkhus, there are these 5 fetters...The four meditative absorptions (jhanas) are to be developed for direct knowledge of these five higher fetters, for the full understanding of them, for their utter destruction, for their abandoning."
Jhananda 1 year ago
@AlexLost01
The man is not on drugs but his mind is stuck in a certain meditative state devoid of wisdom.
BarbarraBay 1 year ago
@BarbarraBay Dhammapada Verse 372
"There is no meditative absorption (jhana) without wisdom (panna),
No wisdom without meditative absorption.
One who is in the proximity of enlightenment (nibbana/nirvana)
Has both wisdom and meditative absorption."
Translated from the Pali by Jhananda
Natthi jhaanam apan~n~assa, pan~n~aa natthi ajhaayato,
Yamhi jhaanan~ ca pan~n~an~ ca sa ve nibbaanasantike.
Jhananda 1 year ago
@Jhananda Well quoted. The goal here is Nibbana (not jhana).
BarbarraBay 1 year ago
@BarbarraBay except, according to the suttas, there is no NIbbana without jhana. Mahaasaccaka sutta (MN 36)
"It occurred to me: Doing these difficult exertions, I will not attain (enlightenment). There should be some other method for the realization of enlightenment. Then, I recalled the experience under the shade of the rose apple tree near my fathers field... [he experiences the first ecstasy (jhana)]. Then wisdom arose in him this is the path to enlightenment. "
Jhananda 1 year ago
@Jhananda I do hope you realize that the MN 36 quote you referenced doesn't even support your own position. It states jhana is -the path to- nibbana.
Somnilocus 1 year ago
@Somnilocus jhana is -the path to- nibbana is my premise.
Jhananda 1 year ago
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BarbarraBay 1 year ago
Comment removed
dadahill1 2 years ago
Hello Dada, good to hear from you again. Yes, I recall the dialog. Yes, I agree, many people find a brush with bliss disconcerting. I believe the fear comes from not having a context for the experience.
Jhananda 2 years ago
I learnt a lot from your yahoo group already. Thanks for reaching out here on youtube as well.
Look forward to vids.
Biscayne.
BiscayneNationalPark 2 years ago
Hello Biscayne, thanks for the subscription. It is a pleasure to connect with you.
Jhananda
Jhananda 2 years ago
Hello Adam and Bruce, and thank-you for posting your supportive comments. Yes, there is more material, I just had to edit it down for this venue
Best, Jeffrey
Jhananda 2 years ago
Hey Jeff!
Great stuff mate! I would love to see more from you.
Looking forward to it.
In kind regards,
Adam.
TheGigantus 2 years ago
@TheGigantus thank-you Adam for posting your support for this video series
Jhananda 1 year ago
Hi Jeff,
is there more?
bruce
dipper888bp 2 years ago
@dipper888bp Yes, Bruce there are more videos in this series and more to come
Jhananda 1 year ago