Then how do you describe the results of the two non-clay matches between those two in Seles's two peak years? The San Antonio 91 final and the Wimbledon 92 final?
"Crucified" by Graf ... ? Or should we say "thrashed"? "Destroyed"? Or what about "belted"? "Schooled" would be too timid, certainly ...
Before the stabbing Steffi lost in slams mostly to players not named Seles. After the stabbing she stopped to lose to those players and therefore won the next 4 slams.
Whose slam count isn't "inflated" by some outside effects?
Seles's count is inflated by a crime, too (Graf blackmailing).
Steffi overpowered Seles in the winner department by far at FO 92 and Wim 92 AND AO 93. Steffi even hit more winners (9 vs. 5) in the last set of the AO final (which she lost 2-6).
Most consecutive wins? Best w/l record in one season? Lenglen, Wills-Moody and Connolly were better. So only open-era records for Navi here. But when we talk open-era records the best records are Graf's:
@artisking Thank you for correcting me. Martina is 7-10 against selse. However everything you said just points out even more clearly why Martina is the best female player ever.
@iamanabba graf has 22, and if seles hadn't been stabbed that number would be closer to 15. further more Martinais about 14 yrs older than graf and their H@H is 7-10 for graf. Martina won more titels,more majors and if they were the same age she would have completle dominated graf. Top 5 wqomen :Martina, serena,graf,evert,venus
Graf got a bit lucky in the end. Navratilova almost had this match in her hand but there was one point that she missed at the net because something flew in her eyes I think (I saw the match but it was a long time ago) and that changed the outcome.
@quirotmutolafan People always talk about what might have happened, how many slams Seles would have won, if she hadn't been stabbed. Yet she was and if she hadn't been she could have easily have burnt out like Capriati did at that time. She was also pushed hard and hitting the ball very hard, she would have had injury problems too, no doubt. .. What if in that scenorio Capriati didn't burn out, she would have challanged too. She has all the talent just bad, pushy parents.
@JAMIAWALA I liked Martina alot but she was unchallanged because she raised the game, while the rankings were full of teenage Evert clones. Graf, Seles, Sabatini, Sanchez Vicario were not, they came through. The current field watched these players growing up and copied them, which is why the women are a stronger field now. Steffi Graf wasn't affraid of Navratilova, she believed she could win, that also made a difference.
@emmyjo720 Weak field? Mandlikova,Austin, Evert. All hall of fame players with multiple grandslam wins. As for Sanchez vicar, sabatini and selseMartina H2H with them is extremly good. Martina was way past her prime and well into her mid 30's and still dominated those players! Except for seles, but she was 7-10, and won their last match. Graf is overrated, Martina is the best female player ever!
Also the old Navratilova head to head vs Martinez is deceiving since nearly all their matches were on clay which was Martinez's best surface by far. She was nowhere near as good on the other surfaces. Her Wimbledon title was a big fluke I feel, and as a Seles fan I admit the sight of Conchita winning Wimbledon made me a bit sick. That so should have been Monica's year to win it. Even on clay Martinez could not overcome Graf, Seles, Sanchez, and Pierce to win a French though.
@Hoffenheim08 yes that is true. However they did not play a single match on a fast surface other than grass from 1990-1994. It would have been interesting to see them play a match on another fast surface like decoturf, carpet, or indoors during that time. Keep in mind Seles on those surfaces is not the same as Seles on grass. Grass was Monica's worst surface by a huge margin.
It's been posted and documented in many places but remember that Martina (in their early years) avoided tournaments that Chris Evert entered to maintain her ranking. Yup, a champion for sure.
Martina is the best tennis player ever. Big Nose will never ever reach her. Nose profitted a lot from Monica being stabbed. So she definitely cannot be called as the best player.
It is definitely true that she is one of the best players ever. But imo Martina is simply the best.
Martina Navratilova is a legend and brought woman's tennis to new and exciting heights. She is, arguably, the best female player of all time which takes nothing away from the brilliance and talent of Steffi, Monica, Chris, Billie Jean, the Williams sisters and all the rest.
Yet Navratilova won the complete grand slam boxed set - i.e. all grand slam titles on all surfaces, singles, doubles and mixed doubles - the only player in the open era to do so. Hard to imagine a more complete player...
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Hoffenheim08 you are such a moron Graf's slump was Graf's problem! Since Graf was losing to Sabatini, Sanchez, and Novotna on the regular it was obvious the competition caught up to Steffi. You cannot blame Monica because she was destroying the players Steffi could NOT BEAT!!! Seles was superior in the early 1990s because she was more CONSISTENT then Graf! Monica won 8 out of the 9 majors she played PRIOR to the stabbing.
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"There were only two women I even gave consideration to for the title of the greatest female tennis player of all-time.
One would be my favorite female tennis player ever, Steffi Graf, and the other would be the woman I actually selected as the greatest of all-time, Martina Navratilova. Both were outstanding players in their prime, but for me, the level of competition that Navratilova faced throughout her career was much more formidable than that of Grafs era." Associated Content Sports
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Funny how you dont mention
Martinez 1-4
Or are Coetzer and McNeil now suddenly more important players than Conchita, LOL! I guess that is one way to conveniently sweep aside a head to head that you dont like. Also Seles cant be excluded. She was gone 2.5 years, but
she was still around more often than not. She was around alot longer in the 90s than Austin was in the 80s, and even her 3+ year prime before being stabbed was longer than Austin was at her best before injuries hit.
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Also why dont you post Grafs head to heads vs the top players of the 80s, LOL! Other than Evert and Navratilova it will all be a whitewash as well. Players like Bettina Bunge, Sukova, Kohde Kilsh are talentless hacks Graf in her early to mid teens was already slapping around. As for the one exception- her head to head with Durie, well atleast it wont be as bad as Martinas vs Conchita moonballer Martinez.
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Not to mention her head to heads with Sanchez and Sabatini included many matches in her 20s and when they themselves were only teenagers, yet you brush it off as if they were all matches in her mid thirties and them in their primes. Garrison was more a player of the Navratilova era than the Graf era, so posting her horrible head to head with Martina is mocking the competition of the 80s more than the 90s. Your arguments are so twisted to kiss the ass of your idol it is comical.
Re: Graf's main competition in the 90s, apart from Seles. If you look at their h2h records vs. Navratilova AFTER 1988, i.e. when they were all at least 18 and she was 31 years+, they still look pretty feeble:
Sabatini 4-8 ('88-93)
Sanchez V 0-5 ('89-93)
McNeil 0-7 ('89-94)
Fernandez 0-6 ('89-93)
Novotna 1-6 ('89-94)
Coetzer 0-5 ('91-93)
Even if you count from '90 onwards when Navi was 33+ they are all still losers, LOL.
@Nicklas4500 Sorry I dont get your list at all. First of all even with the stabbing Seles was one of the most relevant players. Post stabbing Seles was still far better and more relevant than Coetzer, Fernandez, Garrison or McNeil. Secondly why is Conchita Martinez excluded? Is that because of her inconvenient 4-1 head to head with Navratilova? Please explain how the likes of Garrison, McNeil, and Coetzer are bigger rivals or more top players of the Graf era than Martinez.
@Nicklas4500 I didnt notice this until lambielfans post. But I agree that is not an accurate list of Graf's 90s rivals. A more accurate one of Graf's 90s rivals would be:
Sabatini 6-15 (86-94)
Sanchez 3-12 (86-93)
Martinez 4-1 (90-94)
Seles 10-7 (89-93)
Novotna 1-6 (89-94)
Pierce 1-1 (91-93)
You explained your view on Seles but I also dont understand your exclusion of Martinez at all. Fernandez as a main Graf rival is a stretch, and Coetzer and McNeil were never top players of the 90s.
@Nicklas4500 Most women also arent in their primes as teenagers. Even Martina herself was not close to this. Seles, Connoly, Hingis are the exceptions to the rule, not the general trend. Just as Martina playing so well into her 30s is the exception not the trend. Even with this in mind and with a more accurate representation list of the top players outside of Graf you would mostly still be correct on your point though.
continued.....however even at that I still dont understand the point you are trying to make and I will tell you why. Womens tennis almost NEVER has much depth. There are always 1, 2, or 3 much better than the others. This was the case in Martina's era too. I could post the head to heads Graf had vs Mandlikova, Shriver, and the other top players of the Martina era she began playing at 15 or younger and when they were in their primes. It would be more of the same.
continued.....so that Martina had winning records with the other top 10 players of Graf's era apart from Seles, Martinez, and Pierce isnt some startling stat. It also doesnt make that group different than a typical WTA top 10 or the one Martina was in. Graf was light years better than anyone from the Martina era top players apart from Chris too. Shriver, Turnbull, Jaeger, and the rest are no better than the players you listed, and would probably far even worse vs a 30s Martina if anything.
@grafgirl27 You make some great points but I think you are somewhat missing Nicklas4500's message. He is not trying to suggest (atleast I dont think) that the Navratilova had super depth or that Graf wouldnt dominate nearly all of the top 10 then as well. What he is showing is what you pointed out. In womens tennis the only competition that matters for the true greats are the top 1 or 2 rivals. Nav had Evert, and Graf didnt have Seles, and as you and he showed the rest dont matter much.
@Nicklas4500 after the Seles stabbing instead of say: 1. Graf or Seles, 3. Sanchez Vicario, 4. Novotna or Pierce you were left with 1. Graf, 2. Sanchez, 3. Martinez. Martinez was the biggest difference. There were many women even then who could beat her on non clay surfaces but she was great on clay so Seles being out and Graf injured so much allowed her to win alot of clay court events to pad her ranking. Sanchez as the main Graf rival and Martinez at #3 was really bad for the sport.
so you preffer boring rallies, which always or almost always ends up with opponents error...without grace and beauty, without net plays and amazing technics...WOW you suck sorry...go watch your boring Ivanovic, safina etc...thank God Justine comes back at the beggining of next year...
I can't believe some people are seriously ranking Pam Shriver ahead of singles GS winners, multiple GS singles finalist , Olympic medallists and GS doubles champions or finalists like Novotna (whose doubles career is not that far away from Shriver's), Sabatini or Martínez.
most of you forget that graf had lots of problems with her father in the beginning 90s. exactly in that time she lost matches she didn't lose before. she also had more infuries and didn't play that long like martina. but anyway they are the greatest. who was better, difficult to say.
If you bring up about Graf losing because tension with her father then lots of players go through tough periods too. Martina risked her life and not seeing her family ever again when she defected to the US and that was very tough on her. She battled with the media about her sexuality and she would weep like crazy after losing or winning matches because her family couldn't be with her because of communism in her country.
Very true. Many top players have gone through tough lives: Henin's mother died when she was young and her father used to beat her up; Dokic and Pierce also had abusive fathers; the Williams didn't grow up amid the easiest conditions either, etc. I loved Steffi Graf, but one must not lose objectivity and use stupid arguments in a discussion. Same applies to other lame arguments such as Seles losing at Wimbledon because she couldn't grunt or Martina having it very easy in the 80s.
In 2003 and 2008, Tennis Week ran features identifying the greatest women tennis players of all time by objectively comparing their career statistics. The result?
"The statistics don't lie: when you look at Navratilova's career record of 167 titles, 18 Grand Slam singles titles and an incredible domination of women's tennis over a five-year period, you have to conclude Martina Navratilova is the greatest women player of the Open Era."
Some excellent points here by both players, nice to watch Navratilova hold her own on clay in spite of her serve and volley game. It was good enough to claim two French Open titles.
Nice play from Graf, a real machine on all the courts. Though niether Martina or Graff would beat Evert on the clay court in her prime or even slightly passed it, simply the best clay court player, looking at her record on the surface proves it.
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Some who dont I can tell you:
Nicklas4500- obsessive and lunatic Navratilova fanatic
Hoffenheim08- crazy Parche-like Graf fanatic. Sometimes I wonder if she/he is even Gunther Parche, LOL! Watching him and Nicklas fight is funny though. Those two single player obsessed and delusional losers deserve each other.
QuadThreat- ok he isnt that bad. He is a delusional Williams fanatic a bit but atleast he doesnt go from video to video trolling like those other two clowns.
You are very right today, but untill 20 yrs ago all the best players (either men or women) plyed doubles.
Have a quick look to the rolls of honor of the GS tournements and you'll often find the names of the same players in in the single and double finals.
I agree a single vicory is (and was) more important than a double one, but Navratilova's times double tournements were something very serious. Today they are nearly just volley-training.
The fact that the Olympics happens only once every 4 years doesn't make it harder to win. The greatest player in history could peak in the years between the Olympics and not be a contender for an Olympic gold or played before tennis became part of the Olympics. Graf was lucky to have peaked during an Olympics year and one that tennis was officially part of. It's an extremely special feat, not the hardest ever.
6 straight is harder than 8/9 because 6 straight is a streak, 8/9 is not.
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I read this comment and began to scratch my head it its logic. What point are you trying to make with this statement? I simply don't understand what you've written here.
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this is a common issue you will face with Hoffenheim.
he simply cannot accept the fact that Martina Navratilova is head and shoulders above his countrywoman.
He says that 15 doubles majors counts less than one singles major, yet Pam Shriver is way more known than Gabriela Sabatini or Jana Novotna will ever be known.
The fact that Martina was able to win all those doubles titles, and still only be short 4 singles titles of Graf says more than his brain will ever be able to understand.
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for all the majors. which is obviously where it matters most.
as a person who is primarily a singles player, doubles is harder as far as actual tactics are concerned. it's no fluke that Shriver is in the Hall of Fame.
people who win ONE Gs singles title are obviously flukes. It doesn't matter if some of Graf's rivals were able to snag a few wins in smaller events. If they can't beat her in slams, then they're worthless.
Seles was her only true competition, and she got stabbed.
Let me add that when a past champion is in the audience of a tournament, they say their total GS count more often than not, especially when they've won enough doubles and/or mixed doubles to count for something.
Margaret Court and Martina Navratilova have sniffed more victory than Steffi Graf could even imagine in her lifetime. Steffi Graf is forever one of the greatest of the great, but even she believes that Martina is greater than her.
Actually, with Pam Shriver, Martina won eight Grand Slam doubles titles in a row from Wimbledon 1983 to the French Open in 1985 (inclusive). Starting with the 1985 Australian Open, Martina then won the next six Grand Slams doubles titles played until the 1987 French Open (inclusive; no Australian Open was played in 1986). Martina won all those titles with Pam Shriver except the 1986 French Open, which she won with Andrea Temesvari of Hungary.
Those times the AO held in december and it was the last Grand Slam tournement of the yaer. So she won W83-USO83-AO83-FO84-W84-USO84 in a row. THEN she lost in SF on AO84.
Great players both, even if Martina's talent is unreachable.
This match also shows how strong she was from the base line, while in the first 90s it became the weak part of her game. Anyway, to me, Martina remains the greatest ever!
It was unfortunate that Monica was stabbed but Steffi still had to play those matches and earned those grand slams and she did (injured or not). I think it is an insult to her, to WTA and to the sport to say that she only won those grand slams because of the stabbing. As for eclipsing Martina's numbers, I don't think any woman or man would. But Martina can't claim a Golden Slam. A single most astounding feat in the sport. Steffi's achievements were amazing and deserved.
Excuse me, BUT did Navratilova ever play an Olympics singles match? NO..As for the Golden Slam title, that first came about in 1988... It was never anything to try and achieve before. and 1988 was also the first year that tennis became a medal sport in the Olympics.. so that Golden Slam title means nothing..
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I don't know that the big deal about the "golden slam" anyway. The grand slam itself is fantastic and the Olympics just coincidentally occurred in the same year. It's not the most astounding feat in sport, the timing was just right, that's all. I think Martina's 6 straight majors is more impressive than the golden slam, but it didn't happen in one calendar year so people don't make a big deal about it but trying to win 6 straight slams is harder than trying for the golden slam.
Your logic actually proves my point that winning 6 straight is harder than winning a golden slam.
Tennis is been officially part of the Olympics since 88 so since then, there has been 6 opportunities for players to win the golden slam and 1 player has done it. That's 1/6 ratio.
Every 3 months you get a chance to win 6 str8 so starting from the open era (let's say '65) that's 4 chances every year since 1965 meaning 172 chances to do this and only MN has done it. That's 1/172.
Tennis is also about the pressure etc of the game and it's a lot harder winning the final match at the US Open to complete the Grand Slam that winning another slam tournament to make X in a row. Martina is for sure one of the greatest tennis players but I can't agree that her 6 in a row is better than a grand slam. The grand slam is the pinnacle of tennis?!!
The calendar slam is prettier on paper I agree w/ u there, but the fact is the calendar slam has been achieved more frequently than the 6-slam streak, why?...cuz it's easier. If it was harder than logically you would have more people winning a 2-yr 6-slam streak than the calendar slam but that's not the case so this statistic contradicts your opinion that the calendar slam is harder...it's not. How many have achieved the 6-slam streak that Navratilova has?
I think the calendar slam is a little more than pretty on paper! :)
It's easy to pick out highlights of someones career and try and make them 'better' than another achievement. However the calendar slam is 'IT' in the tennis world. All other achievements are great but the calendar slam is tops.
I don't think we'll ever agree on this though!! ;)
No we do agree on this actually. I never said that the calendar slam was "IT" in the tennis world, I TOTALLY agree with you. I just disagree with you that it's the hardest, it's not. Winning 6 straight is technically harder and that's why less have won it in history than the calendar slam but yes the calendar slam is it in tennis, no dispute there.
Hey Grafanatic Hoffenheim08, if winning 6 straight is easier than winning 8 out of 9 then why did Graf fail to do the easier thing, which is 6 straight? Anyway, you've brought this argument up before, it's played out. Come up with something new and valid.
@Nicklas4500 looking over Graf's career to me it is evident she was a beneficiary of timing. First rising to prominence when Navratilova and Evert got old. Then being shoved aside by a teenage Seles, but regaining dominance after Seles was stabbed. Then lastly falling off with injuries just as Hingis and others began to rise and never regaining dominance, and convenitently retiring after 2 last finals. She struggled to dominate vs any tough opposition, takin advantage of gaps there were none.
@selesfan30 VERY WELL SAID. SELES IN HER PRIME OWNED GRAF, AND MARTINA AND CHRIS IN THEIR PRIME WOULD HAVE ALSO. GRAF'S CAREER WAS DEFINETLY AIDED BY TIMEING, A STABBING AND OLD AGE.
@Menexpert It think it was also harder then have the Australian Open at the end of the year, than at the beginning as it was when Martina won the 6 in a row.
Serena did a Serena Slam, won all four GS's but not the Calander year because she won the Australia in 03 not 02.
If Graf winning 8 out of 9 slams is "far, far, far harder" than Martina winning 6 straight slams then how come Graf herself was never able to win 6 straight slams?
I don't have the answer to your question Hoffenheim08 but again 6 straight slam is a streak, 8 out of 9 is NOT a streak so it's not harder to win. A fourth grader can tell you that, unless that 4th grader is a HUGE Graf fanatic like you are and in that case everything Graf has done is the hardest!
@Hoffenheim08 Martina had Chris Evert, who had her last resurgence in 85 and 86.
Helena Sukova and Hana Mandlikova too. Plus Martina was playing singles, doubles and mixed doubles at Grand Slams. Don't forget in 1984 she also won a Grand Slam in Doubles and well as the six in in singles.
Exactly Graf didn't win 6 straight in 95 & 96 and if I'm correct she never won 6 straight ever like Martina did, am I right in saying that? I hope I am.
I'm a Steffi fan too though maybe not as much as you(!) I thinkn it is more impressive winning the Grand Slam(even without the Olympics) due to the added pressure of having to win that final match at the US Open. Having to win x amount in a row does not carry the same gravitas and therefore pressure of having to win that final match to complete the grand slam.
Graf's career never eclipsed Martina's. Graf was great, but lucked out. When Seles was stabbed, Graf only had 12 grand slams, 6 behind Martina. While Seles was gone, hmm, she won 6 grand slams.. What a fortunate gift.
11 slams, not 12! Graf was up 9-0 GS titles when she entered the FO 1990 final against Seles. 3 years later, she was 11-8, with seles winning 8 of the 12 slams played in the meantime, and graf 2 only.
I think Martina may have known that here was a player who could challenge her day in day out and was a serious threat to her domination. Yeah she choked but Steffi's career was about to take off and eclipse that of many of the game's immortals (including Martina's).
Martina Navratilova! la mejor jugadora que ha pisado una cancha de tenis .....UNICA E INCOMPARABLE.
guicon2007 1 year ago
@artisking
Yes, Steffi being the victim of a crime in 1990/92 (blackmail) is no excuse.
Neither is the minor stabbing Seles suffered in 1993.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
Yes it`s right. But this happened a few years later.
TheWhite1961 1 year ago
@artisking
How comes that Steffi made only 8 points less than Seles?
When Seles had a "31-21 winners advantage" and made "less unforced errors"?
So Steffi made far, far less "forced errors"?
LOL ...
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
At this time the normal result was. Game, set and match ......Graf!
TheWhite1961 1 year ago
@artisking
"Beaten easily" by Seles in the AO 93 final?
Because Seles made 86 points and Steffi only 78?
Then how do you describe the results of the two non-clay matches between those two in Seles's two peak years? The San Antonio 91 final and the Wimbledon 92 final?
"Crucified" by Graf ... ? Or should we say "thrashed"? "Destroyed"? Or what about "belted"? "Schooled" would be too timid, certainly ...
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@artisking
Graf WON the FO at age 29 years and 356 days.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@artisking
Seles.
Wouldn't have won most of her slam if Graf hadn't been blackmailed.
Might have won AO 92 and AO 96 anyway.
But else?
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@artisking
You are proving my point.
Before the stabbing Steffi lost in slams mostly to players not named Seles. After the stabbing she stopped to lose to those players and therefore won the next 4 slams.
And what had Seles to do with this?
Exactly.
Nothing at all.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@artisking
Whose slam count isn't "inflated" by some outside effects?
Seles's count is inflated by a crime, too (Graf blackmailing).
Steffi overpowered Seles in the winner department by far at FO 92 and Wim 92 AND AO 93. Steffi even hit more winners (9 vs. 5) in the last set of the AO final (which she lost 2-6).
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@artisking
So open era only.
22 slams and one Golden Grand Slam for Graf.
Most consecutive wins and 6 straight slams for Navi.
Hmmm, difficult choice ... NOT!
BTW, what did you expect Graf to say? I'm the best?
People like you will never understand someone like Steffi .... (Thank God!)
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@artisking
Most consecutive wins? Best w/l record in one season? Lenglen, Wills-Moody and Connolly were better. So only open-era records for Navi here. But when we talk open-era records the best records are Graf's:
22 slams.
1 Golden Grand Slam.
8 years as #1.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@artisking
Steffi has most singles slams in the open era.
And Navratilova has most singles titles in the open era.
What do you think is more important?
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@artisking Thank you for correcting me. Martina is 7-10 against selse. However everything you said just points out even more clearly why Martina is the best female player ever.
MrPernell27 1 year ago
Graf beat them all with 23 grand slams she is the greatest ever followed chris and martina.
iamanabba 1 year ago
@iamanabba graf has 22, and if seles hadn't been stabbed that number would be closer to 15. further more Martinais about 14 yrs older than graf and their H@H is 7-10 for graf. Martina won more titels,more majors and if they were the same age she would have completle dominated graf. Top 5 wqomen :Martina, serena,graf,evert,venus
MrPernell27 1 year ago
"c'est parfait!" lol
IamInTheGarden 1 year ago
FAGOT
FuckingWerner 1 year ago
@FuckingWerner
Say, why do you fuck Werner?
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08 looool , sorry bro'
this coment not is for NAVRATILOVA , is for the rival of NAVRATILOVA
NAVRATILOVA is fo fucking awesomeee
i love NAVRATILOVA ♥
FuckingWerner 1 year ago
Graf got a bit lucky in the end. Navratilova almost had this match in her hand but there was one point that she missed at the net because something flew in her eyes I think (I saw the match but it was a long time ago) and that changed the outcome.
doetim 1 year ago
@JAMIAWALA What drugs are you on? Steffi Graf slightly ahead of Federer?? Get fucking real.
MrPernell27 1 year ago
@quirotmutolafan People always talk about what might have happened, how many slams Seles would have won, if she hadn't been stabbed. Yet she was and if she hadn't been she could have easily have burnt out like Capriati did at that time. She was also pushed hard and hitting the ball very hard, she would have had injury problems too, no doubt. .. What if in that scenorio Capriati didn't burn out, she would have challanged too. She has all the talent just bad, pushy parents.
emmyjo720 1 year ago
@JAMIAWALA I liked Martina alot but she was unchallanged because she raised the game, while the rankings were full of teenage Evert clones. Graf, Seles, Sabatini, Sanchez Vicario were not, they came through. The current field watched these players growing up and copied them, which is why the women are a stronger field now. Steffi Graf wasn't affraid of Navratilova, she believed she could win, that also made a difference.
emmyjo720 1 year ago
@emmyjo720 Weak field? Mandlikova,Austin, Evert. All hall of fame players with multiple grandslam wins. As for Sanchez vicar, sabatini and selseMartina H2H with them is extremly good. Martina was way past her prime and well into her mid 30's and still dominated those players! Except for seles, but she was 7-10, and won their last match. Graf is overrated, Martina is the best female player ever!
MrPernell27 1 year ago
Also the old Navratilova head to head vs Martinez is deceiving since nearly all their matches were on clay which was Martinez's best surface by far. She was nowhere near as good on the other surfaces. Her Wimbledon title was a big fluke I feel, and as a Seles fan I admit the sight of Conchita winning Wimbledon made me a bit sick. That so should have been Monica's year to win it. Even on clay Martinez could not overcome Graf, Seles, Sanchez, and Pierce to win a French though.
selesfan30 1 year ago
@selesfan30
Same with the H2H between Graf and Seles as all Seles wins were on slow surfaces.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08 yes that is true. However they did not play a single match on a fast surface other than grass from 1990-1994. It would have been interesting to see them play a match on another fast surface like decoturf, carpet, or indoors during that time. Keep in mind Seles on those surfaces is not the same as Seles on grass. Grass was Monica's worst surface by a huge margin.
selesfan30 1 year ago
1. Steffi was stupid in doubles.
2. Steffi couldn't serve and volley as great as Navratilova.
3. Steffi was greatly benefited from Seles tragedy during 1993 to 1996. Note this forever.
Steffi is more complete but it doesn't mean she's easily the greatest. Other players also have greater records than her.
volvariella 2 years ago
Steffi is overachiever.
volvariella 2 years ago
It's been posted and documented in many places but remember that Martina (in their early years) avoided tournaments that Chris Evert entered to maintain her ranking. Yup, a champion for sure.
rehomingfish 2 years ago
Chris Evert? Navratilova solved her for sure.
Evert retired when Graf started to reign? A champion for sure.
volvariella 2 years ago
@rehomingfish Which tournaments exactly did Navratilova avoid facing Evert? Where is this documented? Please give a reference.
Nicklas4500 1 year ago
@rehomingfish That's absurd!
MrPernell27 1 year ago
Martina is the best tennis player ever. Big Nose will never ever reach her. Nose profitted a lot from Monica being stabbed. So she definitely cannot be called as the best player.
It is definitely true that she is one of the best players ever. But imo Martina is simply the best.
marclaumann 2 years ago
@marclaumann
Most people don't agree with you.
Hey, Graf wins GOAT polls even in the USA!!!
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
That cow won 3 Wimbledon titles.
zim83 2 years ago
Martina Navratilova is a legend and brought woman's tennis to new and exciting heights. She is, arguably, the best female player of all time which takes nothing away from the brilliance and talent of Steffi, Monica, Chris, Billie Jean, the Williams sisters and all the rest.
marshamc 2 years ago
who do you blame for your pathetic comments?
juju1305 2 years ago
I love Navratilova. The best!!!!!!!!!!
vidalzinho 2 years ago 28
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Yet Navratilova won the complete grand slam boxed set - i.e. all grand slam titles on all surfaces, singles, doubles and mixed doubles - the only player in the open era to do so. Hard to imagine a more complete player...
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
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Hoffenheim08 you are such a moron Graf's slump was Graf's problem! Since Graf was losing to Sabatini, Sanchez, and Novotna on the regular it was obvious the competition caught up to Steffi. You cannot blame Monica because she was destroying the players Steffi could NOT BEAT!!! Seles was superior in the early 1990s because she was more CONSISTENT then Graf! Monica won 8 out of the 9 majors she played PRIOR to the stabbing.
JordanjamesX 2 years ago
7 out of 9.
And Seles's slump post-96 was Seles's problem!
Hoffenheim08 2 years ago
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Steffi
Graf
The
Greatest
of all
Time!
RuthlessFerocity 2 years ago
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"There were only two women I even gave consideration to for the title of the greatest female tennis player of all-time.
One would be my favorite female tennis player ever, Steffi Graf, and the other would be the woman I actually selected as the greatest of all-time, Martina Navratilova. Both were outstanding players in their prime, but for me, the level of competition that Navratilova faced throughout her career was much more formidable than that of Grafs era." Associated Content Sports
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
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Main competition that Graf faced in early to mid 90s, Seles excluded/stabbed. H2h record:
Novotna 6-1
Coetzer 5-0
MJ Fernandez 8-0
Sanchez-V 12-3
Sabatini 15-6
Garrison 33-1
McNeil 12-0
Oh, btw, that's their losing h2h against a player in her mid thirties, years past her prime: Martina Navratilova.
What does that tell you about the level of competition that a prime Graf faced?
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
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Funny how you dont mention
Martinez 1-4
Or are Coetzer and McNeil now suddenly more important players than Conchita, LOL! I guess that is one way to conveniently sweep aside a head to head that you dont like. Also Seles cant be excluded. She was gone 2.5 years, but
she was still around more often than not. She was around alot longer in the 90s than Austin was in the 80s, and even her 3+ year prime before being stabbed was longer than Austin was at her best before injuries hit.
lambielkwanfan 2 years ago
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Also why dont you post Grafs head to heads vs the top players of the 80s, LOL! Other than Evert and Navratilova it will all be a whitewash as well. Players like Bettina Bunge, Sukova, Kohde Kilsh are talentless hacks Graf in her early to mid teens was already slapping around. As for the one exception- her head to head with Durie, well atleast it wont be as bad as Martinas vs Conchita moonballer Martinez.
lambielkwanfan 2 years ago
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Not to mention her head to heads with Sanchez and Sabatini included many matches in her 20s and when they themselves were only teenagers, yet you brush it off as if they were all matches in her mid thirties and them in their primes. Garrison was more a player of the Navratilova era than the Graf era, so posting her horrible head to head with Martina is mocking the competition of the 80s more than the 90s. Your arguments are so twisted to kiss the ass of your idol it is comical.
lambielkwanfan 2 years ago
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Re: Graf's main competition in the 90s, apart from Seles. If you look at their h2h records vs. Navratilova AFTER 1988, i.e. when they were all at least 18 and she was 31 years+, they still look pretty feeble:
Sabatini 4-8 ('88-93)
Sanchez V 0-5 ('89-93)
McNeil 0-7 ('89-94)
Fernandez 0-6 ('89-93)
Novotna 1-6 ('89-94)
Coetzer 0-5 ('91-93)
Even if you count from '90 onwards when Navi was 33+ they are all still losers, LOL.
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
@Nicklas4500 Sorry I dont get your list at all. First of all even with the stabbing Seles was one of the most relevant players. Post stabbing Seles was still far better and more relevant than Coetzer, Fernandez, Garrison or McNeil. Secondly why is Conchita Martinez excluded? Is that because of her inconvenient 4-1 head to head with Navratilova? Please explain how the likes of Garrison, McNeil, and Coetzer are bigger rivals or more top players of the Graf era than Martinez.
lambielkwanfan 1 year ago
@Nicklas4500 I didnt notice this until lambielfans post. But I agree that is not an accurate list of Graf's 90s rivals. A more accurate one of Graf's 90s rivals would be:
Sabatini 6-15 (86-94)
Sanchez 3-12 (86-93)
Martinez 4-1 (90-94)
Seles 10-7 (89-93)
Novotna 1-6 (89-94)
Pierce 1-1 (91-93)
You explained your view on Seles but I also dont understand your exclusion of Martinez at all. Fernandez as a main Graf rival is a stretch, and Coetzer and McNeil were never top players of the 90s.
grafgirl27 1 year ago 2
@Nicklas4500 Most women also arent in their primes as teenagers. Even Martina herself was not close to this. Seles, Connoly, Hingis are the exceptions to the rule, not the general trend. Just as Martina playing so well into her 30s is the exception not the trend. Even with this in mind and with a more accurate representation list of the top players outside of Graf you would mostly still be correct on your point though.
grafgirl27 1 year ago
continued.....however even at that I still dont understand the point you are trying to make and I will tell you why. Womens tennis almost NEVER has much depth. There are always 1, 2, or 3 much better than the others. This was the case in Martina's era too. I could post the head to heads Graf had vs Mandlikova, Shriver, and the other top players of the Martina era she began playing at 15 or younger and when they were in their primes. It would be more of the same.
grafgirl27 1 year ago 2
continued.....so that Martina had winning records with the other top 10 players of Graf's era apart from Seles, Martinez, and Pierce isnt some startling stat. It also doesnt make that group different than a typical WTA top 10 or the one Martina was in. Graf was light years better than anyone from the Martina era top players apart from Chris too. Shriver, Turnbull, Jaeger, and the rest are no better than the players you listed, and would probably far even worse vs a 30s Martina if anything.
grafgirl27 1 year ago 2
@grafgirl27 You make some great points but I think you are somewhat missing Nicklas4500's message. He is not trying to suggest (atleast I dont think) that the Navratilova had super depth or that Graf wouldnt dominate nearly all of the top 10 then as well. What he is showing is what you pointed out. In womens tennis the only competition that matters for the true greats are the top 1 or 2 rivals. Nav had Evert, and Graf didnt have Seles, and as you and he showed the rest dont matter much.
selesfan30 1 year ago
@selesfan30 Thanks - that's exactly the point I was trying to make :)
Nicklas4500 1 year ago
@Nicklas4500 after the Seles stabbing instead of say: 1. Graf or Seles, 3. Sanchez Vicario, 4. Novotna or Pierce you were left with 1. Graf, 2. Sanchez, 3. Martinez. Martinez was the biggest difference. There were many women even then who could beat her on non clay surfaces but she was great on clay so Seles being out and Graf injured so much allowed her to win alot of clay court events to pad her ranking. Sanchez as the main Graf rival and Martinez at #3 was really bad for the sport.
selesfan30 1 year ago
i prefer modern tennis but i have to admit they were all soooo well rounded back then.
charcharbiotch 2 years ago
so you preffer boring rallies, which always or almost always ends up with opponents error...without grace and beauty, without net plays and amazing technics...WOW you suck sorry...go watch your boring Ivanovic, safina etc...thank God Justine comes back at the beggining of next year...
Summon256 2 years ago
@Summon256 thank god she lost to clijsters at wimbledon today, just saying.
iNikkoJohn 1 year ago
@iNikkoJohn no you aren't JUSt saying you're trolling...
Summon256 1 year ago
I can't believe some people are seriously ranking Pam Shriver ahead of singles GS winners, multiple GS singles finalist , Olympic medallists and GS doubles champions or finalists like Novotna (whose doubles career is not that far away from Shriver's), Sabatini or Martínez.
zim83 2 years ago
most of you forget that graf had lots of problems with her father in the beginning 90s. exactly in that time she lost matches she didn't lose before. she also had more infuries and didn't play that long like martina. but anyway they are the greatest. who was better, difficult to say.
Mummins 2 years ago
If you bring up about Graf losing because tension with her father then lots of players go through tough periods too. Martina risked her life and not seeing her family ever again when she defected to the US and that was very tough on her. She battled with the media about her sexuality and she would weep like crazy after losing or winning matches because her family couldn't be with her because of communism in her country.
doetim 2 years ago
Very true. Many top players have gone through tough lives: Henin's mother died when she was young and her father used to beat her up; Dokic and Pierce also had abusive fathers; the Williams didn't grow up amid the easiest conditions either, etc. I loved Steffi Graf, but one must not lose objectivity and use stupid arguments in a discussion. Same applies to other lame arguments such as Seles losing at Wimbledon because she couldn't grunt or Martina having it very easy in the 80s.
zim83 2 years ago
This was one of the tournaments where Navratilova played with the Dunlop Max 200G... Interesting to see!
ilian51378 2 years ago
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In 2003 and 2008, Tennis Week ran features identifying the greatest women tennis players of all time by objectively comparing their career statistics. The result?
"The statistics don't lie: when you look at Navratilova's career record of 167 titles, 18 Grand Slam singles titles and an incredible domination of women's tennis over a five-year period, you have to conclude Martina Navratilova is the greatest women player of the Open Era."
- 'The Best of the Best', Tennis Week
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
Some excellent points here by both players, nice to watch Navratilova hold her own on clay in spite of her serve and volley game. It was good enough to claim two French Open titles.
zim83 2 years ago
Nice play from Graf, a real machine on all the courts. Though niether Martina or Graff would beat Evert on the clay court in her prime or even slightly passed it, simply the best clay court player, looking at her record on the surface proves it.
Killa4Life111 2 years ago
do you people have lives?
kangaroosbraun 3 years ago 2
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Some who dont I can tell you:
Nicklas4500- obsessive and lunatic Navratilova fanatic
Hoffenheim08- crazy Parche-like Graf fanatic. Sometimes I wonder if she/he is even Gunther Parche, LOL! Watching him and Nicklas fight is funny though. Those two single player obsessed and delusional losers deserve each other.
QuadThreat- ok he isnt that bad. He is a delusional Williams fanatic a bit but atleast he doesnt go from video to video trolling like those other two clowns.
lambielkwanfan 2 years ago
Graf had three seasons where she was unbeaten in Grandslams, 88,95 and 96... And two more where she lost just one...
Thats far more impressive than winning 6 straight.
bilraz 3 years ago 4
MN = the BEST tennis!
ombreross 3 years ago
15 doubles majors count less than even one singles major.
Ask Pam Shriver ....
Hoffenheim08 3 years ago
You are very right today, but untill 20 yrs ago all the best players (either men or women) plyed doubles.
Have a quick look to the rolls of honor of the GS tournements and you'll often find the names of the same players in in the single and double finals.
I agree a single vicory is (and was) more important than a double one, but Navratilova's times double tournements were something very serious. Today they are nearly just volley-training.
ombreross 3 years ago
Back then - in the early open era - professional players needed the extra money. And playing doubles was nice practicing.
Players like Graf, though, had enough money and preferred to practice with (paid) male coaches or hitting partners.
Hoffenheim08 3 years ago
The fact that the Olympics happens only once every 4 years doesn't make it harder to win. The greatest player in history could peak in the years between the Olympics and not be a contender for an Olympic gold or played before tennis became part of the Olympics. Graf was lucky to have peaked during an Olympics year and one that tennis was officially part of. It's an extremely special feat, not the hardest ever.
6 straight is harder than 8/9 because 6 straight is a streak, 8/9 is not.
Got that?
guyinsf 3 years ago
Which player won 4 slams in a Olympic year and was denied the Golden Grand Slam only because there was no tennis in the Olympics?
Exactly. Zero.
Hoffenheim08 3 years ago 3
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I read this comment and began to scratch my head it its logic. What point are you trying to make with this statement? I simply don't understand what you've written here.
guyinsf 3 years ago
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this is a common issue you will face with Hoffenheim.
he simply cannot accept the fact that Martina Navratilova is head and shoulders above his countrywoman.
He says that 15 doubles majors counts less than one singles major, yet Pam Shriver is way more known than Gabriela Sabatini or Jana Novotna will ever be known.
The fact that Martina was able to win all those doubles titles, and still only be short 4 singles titles of Graf says more than his brain will ever be able to understand.
QuadThreat 3 years ago
Shriver more known than Sabatini .... ?
Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!
Hoffenheim08 3 years ago 3
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she is, you ass....think about it!
QuadThreat 3 years ago
World-wide Sabatini is known to at least 10 times the people as Shriver.
Easily.
Even in the U.S.
Hoffenheim08 3 years ago 4
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correction: most people over 35 know who she is.
obviously Shriver commentating has helped her recognition, but most people that are walking WITHOUT canes don;t know who the fuck Sabatini is.
QuadThreat 3 years ago
Commentating?
In which countries?
Hoffenheim08 3 years ago 2
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for all the majors. which is obviously where it matters most.
as a person who is primarily a singles player, doubles is harder as far as actual tactics are concerned. it's no fluke that Shriver is in the Hall of Fame.
people who win ONE Gs singles title are obviously flukes. It doesn't matter if some of Graf's rivals were able to snag a few wins in smaller events. If they can't beat her in slams, then they're worthless.
Seles was her only true competition, and she got stabbed.
QuadThreat 3 years ago
I agree mainly though I think Pam was VERY lucky to have had Martina Navratilova as her partner!
Menexpert 2 years ago
lmao...touche!
QuadThreat 2 years ago
P.S.
Let me add that when a past champion is in the audience of a tournament, they say their total GS count more often than not, especially when they've won enough doubles and/or mixed doubles to count for something.
Margaret Court and Martina Navratilova have sniffed more victory than Steffi Graf could even imagine in her lifetime. Steffi Graf is forever one of the greatest of the great, but even she believes that Martina is greater than her.
QuadThreat 3 years ago
Do you think 50 mixed doubles titles equal ONE singles title at the slams?
I don't ...
Hoffenheim08 3 years ago
if you have no singles titles to back up those doubles?....no, it doesn't.
But at the same time....as far as recognition goes:
Pam Shriver > Novotna + Martinez + all those other one-GS wonders.
QuadThreat 3 years ago
he's spamming all the discussions where graf is mentioned. and there is no logic aside "graf is the best ever"...
juju1305 2 years ago
Yes I know, he's one of those Grafanatics!
doetim 2 years ago
yeah, and he's got stamina, he's commenting every video out there...
juju1305 2 years ago
Comment removed
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
wow this really looks ancient. Some really classic skills00ine 2 punches.
pearpeas 3 years ago
IT LOOKED QUITE WINDY
BLACKTREAT 3 years ago
Actually, with Pam Shriver, Martina won eight Grand Slam doubles titles in a row from Wimbledon 1983 to the French Open in 1985 (inclusive). Starting with the 1985 Australian Open, Martina then won the next six Grand Slams doubles titles played until the 1987 French Open (inclusive; no Australian Open was played in 1986). Martina won all those titles with Pam Shriver except the 1986 French Open, which she won with Andrea Temesvari of Hungary.
newmark401 3 years ago
Those times the AO held in december and it was the last Grand Slam tournement of the yaer. So she won W83-USO83-AO83-FO84-W84-USO84 in a row. THEN she lost in SF on AO84.
ombreross 3 years ago
Great players both, even if Martina's talent is unreachable.
This match also shows how strong she was from the base line, while in the first 90s it became the weak part of her game. Anyway, to me, Martina remains the greatest ever!
ombreross 3 years ago
It was unfortunate that Monica was stabbed but Steffi still had to play those matches and earned those grand slams and she did (injured or not). I think it is an insult to her, to WTA and to the sport to say that she only won those grand slams because of the stabbing. As for eclipsing Martina's numbers, I don't think any woman or man would. But Martina can't claim a Golden Slam. A single most astounding feat in the sport. Steffi's achievements were amazing and deserved.
fcreatives 3 years ago 9
Excuse me, BUT did Navratilova ever play an Olympics singles match? NO..As for the Golden Slam title, that first came about in 1988... It was never anything to try and achieve before. and 1988 was also the first year that tennis became a medal sport in the Olympics.. so that Golden Slam title means nothing..
nordna 3 years ago
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I don't know that the big deal about the "golden slam" anyway. The grand slam itself is fantastic and the Olympics just coincidentally occurred in the same year. It's not the most astounding feat in sport, the timing was just right, that's all. I think Martina's 6 straight majors is more impressive than the golden slam, but it didn't happen in one calendar year so people don't make a big deal about it but trying to win 6 straight slams is harder than trying for the golden slam.
doetim 3 years ago
You can start a 6-slam-in-a-row streak every 3 months or so. An Golden Grand Slam only every 4 years.
Got it now?
BTW, Graf won 8 of 9 slams in 1988/90, made 13 consecutive slam finals in 1987/90. Definitely far, far, far harder than just winning 6 in a row.
Hoffenheim08 3 years ago
Your logic actually proves my point that winning 6 straight is harder than winning a golden slam.
Tennis is been officially part of the Olympics since 88 so since then, there has been 6 opportunities for players to win the golden slam and 1 player has done it. That's 1/6 ratio.
Every 3 months you get a chance to win 6 str8 so starting from the open era (let's say '65) that's 4 chances every year since 1965 meaning 172 chances to do this and only MN has done it. That's 1/172.
guyinsf 3 years ago
Funny ....
Hoffenheim08 3 years ago
Tennis is also about the pressure etc of the game and it's a lot harder winning the final match at the US Open to complete the Grand Slam that winning another slam tournament to make X in a row. Martina is for sure one of the greatest tennis players but I can't agree that her 6 in a row is better than a grand slam. The grand slam is the pinnacle of tennis?!!
Menexpert 2 years ago
The calendar slam is prettier on paper I agree w/ u there, but the fact is the calendar slam has been achieved more frequently than the 6-slam streak, why?...cuz it's easier. If it was harder than logically you would have more people winning a 2-yr 6-slam streak than the calendar slam but that's not the case so this statistic contradicts your opinion that the calendar slam is harder...it's not. How many have achieved the 6-slam streak that Navratilova has?
guyinsf 2 years ago
I think the calendar slam is a little more than pretty on paper! :)
It's easy to pick out highlights of someones career and try and make them 'better' than another achievement. However the calendar slam is 'IT' in the tennis world. All other achievements are great but the calendar slam is tops.
I don't think we'll ever agree on this though!! ;)
Menexpert 2 years ago
No we do agree on this actually. I never said that the calendar slam was "IT" in the tennis world, I TOTALLY agree with you. I just disagree with you that it's the hardest, it's not. Winning 6 straight is technically harder and that's why less have won it in history than the calendar slam but yes the calendar slam is it in tennis, no dispute there.
guyinsf 2 years ago
Winning 8 of 9 slams or making 13 slam finals in a row is even more difficult than winning 6 consecutive slams.
But Graf did just that.
Hoffenheim08 2 years ago
Hey Grafanatic Hoffenheim08, if winning 6 straight is easier than winning 8 out of 9 then why did Graf fail to do the easier thing, which is 6 straight? Anyway, you've brought this argument up before, it's played out. Come up with something new and valid.
doetim 2 years ago
If winning 8 of 9 is easier than winning 6 in a row, why then did Navratilova fail to do the easier thing, which is winning 8 of 9?
Hoffenheim08 2 years ago
OK, let's compare best slam winning sequences over 5 years:
Navi won 5 of 5, Graf 5 of 5
Navi won 6 of 6, Graf 6 of 7
Navi won 7 of 9, Graf 7 of 8
Navi won 8 of 11, Graf 8 of 9
Navi won 9 of 13, Graf 9 of 15
Navi won 10 of 14, Graf 10 of 19
Navi won 11 of 17, Graf 11 of 22
Navi won 12 of 18, Graf 12 of 23
You decide which is best.
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
Why over 5 years? What about career?
Navi won 18 of 65.
Graf won 22 of 54.
The cold, hard truth ...
Hoffenheim08 2 years ago
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We were talking about slam streaks not overall tally. Graf's tally was inflated by Seles's illegal removal from the game, as everyone knows.
But if you compare like with like, it's clear that Navratilova had a more dominant 5 year spell at #1 than Graf did pre-Seles stabbing.
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
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Navratilova's records were inflated by having only Evert and hackers like Shriver, Turnbull as main opponents.
Seles's records were extremely inflated by Graf being in a big slump in the early 90ies.
So what?
No it is 22-18-9 in slams.
1-0-0 in grand slams.
Live with it ...
Hoffenheim08 2 years ago
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"Only Evert" LOL. Only one of the all-time greats up against her in 22 slam meetings... you need to read up on some tennis history.
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
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Only Evert and some journeywomen, yes.
Hoffenheim08 2 years ago
@Nicklas4500 looking over Graf's career to me it is evident she was a beneficiary of timing. First rising to prominence when Navratilova and Evert got old. Then being shoved aside by a teenage Seles, but regaining dominance after Seles was stabbed. Then lastly falling off with injuries just as Hingis and others began to rise and never regaining dominance, and convenitently retiring after 2 last finals. She struggled to dominate vs any tough opposition, takin advantage of gaps there were none.
selesfan30 1 year ago
@selesfan30 VERY WELL SAID. SELES IN HER PRIME OWNED GRAF, AND MARTINA AND CHRIS IN THEIR PRIME WOULD HAVE ALSO. GRAF'S CAREER WAS DEFINETLY AIDED BY TIMEING, A STABBING AND OLD AGE.
MrPernell27 1 year ago
@MrPernell27
As #1 player Seles lost 3 of 5 matches against Graf.
8 of 13 sets.
I wouldn't call that "owning" ...
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Menexpert It think it was also harder then have the Australian Open at the end of the year, than at the beginning as it was when Martina won the 6 in a row.
Serena did a Serena Slam, won all four GS's but not the Calander year because she won the Australia in 03 not 02.
emmyjo720 1 year ago
If Graf winning 8 out of 9 slams is "far, far, far harder" than Martina winning 6 straight slams then how come Graf herself was never able to win 6 straight slams?
Answer that with your logic Hoffenheim08.
doetim 3 years ago
How come that Navratilova never was able to win 8 out of 9 slams?
Hoffenheim08 3 years ago 5
I don't have the answer to your question Hoffenheim08 but again 6 straight slam is a streak, 8 out of 9 is NOT a streak so it's not harder to win. A fourth grader can tell you that, unless that 4th grader is a HUGE Graf fanatic like you are and in that case everything Graf has done is the hardest!
doetim 3 years ago
3 slams in a row is a streak.
You think it's hard to win than 20 out of 30 ... ?
Hoffenheim08 3 years ago
So is 5 straight but it's still not as good as 6 straight. Give it up Hoffenfheim, go light up candles in your Graf shrine!
guyinsf 3 years ago
13 straight slam finals is even harder than 6 straight slam wins.
Because the former has never been done before while Maureen Conolly did the latter in 1953/54.
Hoffenheim08 3 years ago 2
And we all know that Graf's 3 slams in a row is "far, far, far harder" than Martina's 6 slams in a row. That's just common sense.
guyinsf 3 years ago
Which 3 in a row?
Hoffenheim08 3 years ago
@Hoffenheim08 Martina had Chris Evert, who had her last resurgence in 85 and 86.
Helena Sukova and Hana Mandlikova too. Plus Martina was playing singles, doubles and mixed doubles at Grand Slams. Don't forget in 1984 she also won a Grand Slam in Doubles and well as the six in in singles.
emmyjo720 1 year ago
Graf did win six straight slams in 95 & 96. She didn't enter the Aussie open in both years...
Menexpert 3 years ago
Exactly Graf didn't win 6 straight in 95 & 96 and if I'm correct she never won 6 straight ever like Martina did, am I right in saying that? I hope I am.
doetim 3 years ago
you are right her best consecutive run was 5, but she did win 8 out of 9 in that run...
Ineddiblehulk 2 years ago 5
I'm a Steffi fan too though maybe not as much as you(!) I thinkn it is more impressive winning the Grand Slam(even without the Olympics) due to the added pressure of having to win that final match at the US Open. Having to win x amount in a row does not carry the same gravitas and therefore pressure of having to win that final match to complete the grand slam.
Menexpert 2 years ago
Wow...and on top of that, they are both such BEAUTIFUL women...
Haha.
tyruk 3 years ago
Graf's career never eclipsed Martina's. Graf was great, but lucked out. When Seles was stabbed, Graf only had 12 grand slams, 6 behind Martina. While Seles was gone, hmm, she won 6 grand slams.. What a fortunate gift.
nordna 3 years ago
3 of them were Wimbledons.That's the venue where Seles won 4 games in 4 sets against Graf.
And one was at the USO, on fast hard-court. A surface on which Seles never ever was able to beat Graf.
2 were on FO's clay. That's the surface on which both were about equal.
One was at the AO 94. Maybe Graf's best final ever, beating Sanchez 6-0 6-2.
Hoffenheim08 3 years ago 3
Ahemm...yes seles did beat Graf on hard court...Aussie Open 93 Final.
jasonpeters1 3 years ago
You think AOs surface in 1993 was a FAST hard-court ... ?
Oh my ...
Hoffenheim08 3 years ago 2
11 slams, not 12! Graf was up 9-0 GS titles when she entered the FO 1990 final against Seles. 3 years later, she was 11-8, with seles winning 8 of the 12 slams played in the meantime, and graf 2 only.
juju1305 2 years ago
I think Martina may have known that here was a player who could challenge her day in day out and was a serious threat to her domination. Yeah she choked but Steffi's career was about to take off and eclipse that of many of the game's immortals (including Martina's).
craigferris1 3 years ago 4
Fantastic MATCH
erhanc1974 3 years ago 4