Q&A Occam's Razor and the Existence of God

[Achilles9924]

I think Occam's razor wouldn't disprove God but it would prevent it from making God personal, omnipotent, all-knowing, etc. And about big bang, well if we understand everything regarding "how", wouldn't Occam's razor be close or probably correct regarding "why", just like in a detective novel, if all the clues are there couldn't you point out "why" and "who" ? I mean Occam's razor would only not work if we are ignorant of what we are talking about.

[kneale6]

Beautiful argument

[BlasphemyChannel]

Sooooooooo......you cite beg the question when using the big bang example, but when you say GOD (which god?) is the reason the universe exists, obviously, that isn't begging the question? When God enters logic, ever, always, at all times, the logic ceases and stupidity enters the frame. I'm disappointed in your reasoning and you should be too. Oh, and God can be disproven, least, a God who is clearly defined. All that is left is the vague deist god or the superfluous pantheist god.

[ZangrilloJordan]

whoa. im no bible lover or anything, but the reason for the universes birth is nothing that can be proven scientifically. all science does is explain how the painting was painted and even what was used, but that in itself is not the painting itself. theres a whole other dimension to things that science cant say why, but only how.

[QWho2005]

@ZangrilloJordan

It is well established that paintings have painters. There is no basis for universes having creators. There is nothing to compare our universe to. And to call the universe a painting is not a back-boned claim. An abyss of 99.9999...% empty space is not wonderful. Our planet has both good and bad, are you suggesting that your god specifically caused the Haiti Earthquake, the black plauge (oh no it's part of his plan!) and the 3-4 year old on AMW that was raped and trashed?

[RefinersFire298]

Amazing! This man has a brain able to reason with logic, a rarity these days! Very well explained david.

[types10000]

the theist also states that occam's razor doesnt apply because God needs to be disproved is also false.

in every topic anywhere that is analysised logically, an affirmative claim requires evidence before it can be regarded as true.

as no evidence has been presented for a God a state of disbelief is the logical default.

do you believe there is an invisible dragon under my bed, or would you require evidence before you believed it?

[types10000]

funny the guy in the second part is arguing that a cause and effect relationship can exist without time. say 'i'm a stupid theist 3 times fast'.

the application of Occams razor is simple, he just cant think rationally.

he fails to realize that Occams razor is NOT about simplicity, it's about the least number of unknowns.

[types10000]

hi,

Occam's razor basically says that when faced with two competing arguments the one with the least unknowns is usually correct.

the bigbang basically says there was a singularity that caused the rapid expansion of space-time, even if you were to say that the singularity needed to come from somewhere you would still only have one unknown.

whereas with God, you need to answer where God came from which will undoubtedly result in an infinite regression unless special pleading is employed.

[AlexrYoung]

This is foolish, causality is an attribute of timespace, so it isn't needed to explain the Big Bang. Replacing the Big Bang with a God theory because of the lack of causality just extends the infinite regression one step, what caused God? Turtles, all the way down...

[logician360]

This video is rather confused. You start off by saying that the appeal to Occam's razor begs the question, then you go on to ask why there is something rather than nothing, then you say that atheists deny the principle of causality (which is apparently repugnant)... etc

It'll be difficult to address all of your points for this reason.

1) Are atheists committed to saying that the big bang occurred without a cause? No, they are only committed to saying that the cause wasn't God.

[logician360]

2) Is science somehow dependent upon, or does it presuppose, that all events have causes? This is far from clear. For example, certain interpretations of quantum mechanics suggest that subatomic events are random, and therefore do not have an efficient cause.

3) The simplest explanation often isn't the correct one. However, whilst macroscopic phenomena may be complex, they are generated by a number of simple laws. If these laws didn't underpin our world, science would become impossible.

[logician360]

4) Invoking God explains why there is something rather than nothing. Well, not really. It just pushes the question back to "Why is there God rather than nothing?"

5) If God cannot be disproven, then Occam's razor cannot be applied. On the contrary, the very point of Occam's razor is to dispel unfalsifiable hypothesis. The point is that when faced with the question of whether an undetectable entity exists, and there is no evidence for or against it, we should presume it to be nonexistent.

[godrulztheearth]

best arguement i have ever heard against this theory. great job!

[godbluffph]

M Theory explains why the big bang happened...

[BespokeGroupUK]

You have shaved the razor with a strawman

[ImPotatoes]

I'm an atheist and this is the best Christian argument I have ever heard.

[USMARINEMarano]

here here

[ExplodingApple]

Couldn't you just as easily say that God created the universe so we don't need science to explain it?

[OriginallyRockin]

Exactly! And why does he care. If he doesnt believe in god, Why tell peoplE, why put it on youtube.

[AnimePrincess1994]

Its because he Doesnt have a life. Prove God doesnt excist. He cant. Yet people like u tell yous kids santas coming. We no santas not real. He doesnt come. Prove god doesnt excist. And my your business. everything has false We humans. Dont no everything. We dont no all of science. Think about how simple this is.

God Created Everything :O

Wow that was simple!!

[lilforgie]

Prove god does exist. Infact i would say the is more evidence to support the existance of santa than there is god... atleast the concept of santa is based on a man who actually lived.

[peterf1966]

What? Occams razor fails because planets are not perfectly spherical? Er, Planets are not perfectly spherical due to gravtitational and corriolis effects. The laws of gravity and corriolis, are governed by Occams Razor, ergo, God does not exist. Next!

[fuckgodfuckyou]

WTF has the Coriolis effect got to do with the shape of the earth?!?!

Corriolis effect is a perceived interference of an object going on a straight journey, ergo the object looks like it has a curved path, when it hasnt.

This has nothing to do with the shape of the earth!!

[SteveIsTheMan1990]

sorry. those comments were meant to be a reply to that luvchild person. i actually thought this video was well-thought out and insightful.

[Daharen]

You apply the concept that Scientists try and explain the universe with the Big Bang which they have no explanation for... This is an untrue statement, occam's razor still applies because the big bang has many theories emerging that could explain it, including the collision of two higher dimension membranes in string theory, or the simply collapse and expansion of matter that has been here for all of eternity, both of which are simpler then the cause being an omnipotent god.

[Greatermaxim]

Assuming God exists why did he create murders, theives, and sexual predators in the first place? If he or she was all good then why even create evil especially when he or she claims to have created everything including humanity and the universe.

This is a direct contradiction and is why some people doubt his existence.

[HayBailProductions]

but at the same time he allows us total free will in our existance. if he didn't allow bad things to happen that would disallow free will.

[Greatermaxim]

So it's both the person's and God's fault for the crime.  The person for having the free will to commit one, and for 'God' creating the bad deed and the person to commit it.

Careful, sometimes we might find ourselves in a double whammy.

[AnimePrincess1994]

makes no sence.

[sighuponsigh]

Idk, He wouldn't have a choice if he wanted free will.

[Greatermaxim]

Could you be any less specific and vauge?

[p1aggro]

In response to Greatermaxim:

The fundamental idea is that God created Adam and Eve, perfect, and ignorant to good and evil. It was the devil who exploited their ignorance, soiling their perfection, and their innocence. From their knowledge of good and evil eventually spawned the world we know today.

You could question.. why does God allow such things to exist? I don't know. We as humans don't know absolute truth.. there must be a higher understanding of all of this that we're unable to see.

[Greatermaxim]

Or maybe god and the devil are the same person. Who knows. Some think neither people exist.

[AnimePrincess1994]

Its not god. Its the devil, who put those things. God gives us free will to do what we want. He wants us to love him on our own, he doesnt want to be like HEY WORSHIP ME. So the devil gets people to do stupid retarded things. Easest way to explain it to u people.

[Greatermaxim]

Blame if on corruption and people's poor decisions in life and their lack of discipline or self-control.

Yet again you want somebody to blame for the world's problems be it a god or a devil.

[luvchiild]

If it is so simple then why did it take your over 7 minutes to explain it...seems pretty compliated to me...hense diminishing the possibility for Occam's razor to be artributed to this.

[SteveIsTheMan1990]

that made no sense whatsoever. What you just said is a case of infinite recursion. You cannot apply occam's razor to occam's razor. He is explaining that occam's razor, based on the premises of occam's razor cannot be applied to the concept of god or many other metaphysical beliefs. you cannot apply occam's razor to his explanation of occam's razor unless you already assume that occam's razor is true in which case you are already assuming that conclusion anyway.

lol

[SteveIsTheMan1990]

that made no sense whatsoever. What you just said is a case of infinite recursion. You cannot apply occam's razor to occam's razor. He is explaining that occam's razor, based on the premises of occam's razor cannot be applied to the concept of god or many other metaphysical beliefs. you cannot apply occam's razor to his explanation of occam's razor unless you already assume that occam's razor is true in which case you are already assuming that conclusion anyway.

lol

[Neosquall]

Great video and great intro: "for those of you who don't know anything." Fantastic.

And JaredTheTwitch knows his shit.

[JaredTheTwitch]

When applying Occam's Razor to the Big Bang, there are essentially two hypothesis's (what is the plural of hypothesis?). One is that the Big Bang happened because of God. The second is that the Big Bang happened and we don't know why. The simplest hypothesis is that we don't know why. Invoking God elicits more questions than it answers in regards to the Big Bang.

[JaredTheTwitch]

By invoking God we have to give a reason why he caused the Big Bang. Otherwise, our hypothesis's (there it is again) becomes:

1. God created the Big Bang but we don't know how.

2. We don't know how the Big Bang came about.

There both pretty much the same, except one just happens to be more complex than the other. Occam's Razor comes to the rescue and gives us a reason not to invoke the God of the Gaps argument.

[JaredTheTwitch]

Invoking God creates more questions than answers. Although it can explain the original problem, we have a new one on our hands. Who or what is God? What are his attributes? Where is the evidence for him? Who created God?

It creates an infinite regression and therefore doesn't work. Invoking God requires us to identify his Creator.

[AnimePrincess1994]

Why do we need to no. when the world come to a end one way another. god will come. We'll see. Do rather take the chance to believe so when he comes u'll go to heven. or be stuck up to go to hell. or wait will he comes back and your screwed:/ i say take a chance. thats what free will is.

[kjkolkowski]

it's not just believing etc. it's putting 110% of your entire life into the full devotion to the bible and jesus christ. every action, thought, and feeling you have needs to be devoted to the cause of glorifying christ. it's not just "believing" if you just say you believe and dont walk the walk, the bible says you are going to hell. which is about 2/3 of the "christian" population. people who say they believe.

[lilforgie]

The god that is preached is not one that would send a soul to hell if u r not a christian. From my years of being raised as a christian (however i consider myself and agnostic) i have learnt that if god was to perhaps one day come down to earth on judgement day, then those who have lived good and peaceful loving lives will be taken to haven. Not just because you refer to yourself as christian.

[Keldrath]

well idk, im an atheist but i like to lok at and argue both sides, but my understanding of jesus was that he died for our sins, entered hell, defeated it and then rose on the third day, thereby forgiving us of our sins and not havig a hell to go to anymore so we all go to heaven. now there might still be a place such as purgatory for the people who have very unclean souls, but its merely a place of purging the evil and then going to heaven. not a hell. at least thats my interpretation.

[JaredTheTwitch]

If he is above the rules of science, that is he is super-natural, then science has nothing to do with him and must look for a natural explanation, invoking Occam when necessary.

It gets kind of complicated, but infinite regressions and God tend to due that.

[Daharen]

I agree with all you say, but the assumption that he is above the rules of science is pointless anyways. We've made hypothesis' (The additional s isn't necessary simply add an apostrophe to the end) like multidimensional theory, and string theory that make predictions about things outside our universe or before it, evoking mathematics from within our universe, if we can make assumptions accurately both before and outside our universe, god becomes subject to science.

[Hwaet]

Very well thought out and intelligent. I agree that the argument from Occam's razor is a rather silly way to try to "disprove" God.

[Hwaet]

I do have one small quibble, though. You say that the cause of the Big Bang would have to be God. Well, if we define God as "the ultimate cause", then I guess it would have to be God. However, that ultimate cause could be completely different from a personal being.

[Daharen]

Occam's Razor doesn't disprove anything in science... It has and always will be a probability argument, Occam's Razor can at the very most make one argument more probable then the next. It also applies to god, primarily because there are scientific theories (Not yet applied to math), that have more simple explanations to why the universe exists then an infinitely complex omnipotent god with abilities which we must apply the question 'how' to.

[Censeo]

Occham's razor tells us that the universe shouldn't be explained with specified God or Gods, which means all Gods, because any God you apply is a different theory from any other God you imply creating it. If it was a question of two alternatives, either God or not God, then Occham's razor wouldn't work. I grant you that. Was the universe because of something or nothing and if something, was that a God or not a God, and if a God, what is he/she/it like? See the reasons to apply the razor?

[howcanyouseethelight]

in the courts of the house of the LORD— in your midst, O Jerusalem. Praise the LORD. [d]

[howcanyouseethelight]

O LORD, truly I am your servant; I am your servant, the son of your maidservant [c] ; you have freed me from my chains. I will sacrifice a thank offering to you and call on the name of the LORD. I will fulfill my vows to the LORD in the presence of all his people,

[howcanyouseethelight]

And in my dismay I said, "All men are liars."

How can I repay the LORD for all his goodness to me? I will lift up the cup of salvation and call on the name of the LORD.

I will fulfill my vows to the LORD in the presence of all his people. Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.

[howcanyouseethelight]

Be at rest once more, O my soul,  for the LORD has been good to you.For you, O LORD, have delivered my soul from death, my eyes from tears, my feet from stumbling,

that I may walk before the LORD in the land of the living. I believed; therefore [b] I said, "I am greatly afflicted."

[howcanyouseethelight]

The LORD is gracious and righteous; our God is full of compassion.

The LORD protects the simplehearted; when I was in great need, he saved me.

[howcanyouseethelight]

I love the LORD, for he heard my voice; he heard my cry for mercy.

Because he turned his ear to me, I will call on him as long as I live. The cords of death entangled me, the anguish of the grave [a] came upon me; I was overcome by trouble and sorrow. Then I called on the name of the LORD : "O LORD, save me!"

[madangels121]

Well I personally believe that the universe is conscious. It's looking for equilibrium (achieve perfection) we know it's expanding and by this it's becoming more and more complex (or is it evolving??) To achieve perfecion, it has to know what perfection is. So there MUST be an inherent thought? So there was a universe before this one. What caused the big bang? 'Attenuation'..what caused attenuation? Woops..back to square one :-) The answer IMO: We Don't yet have the capacity to understand..

[hondo1188]

interesting thanks for sharin.