Father Barron on "All Along the Watchtower"

[alias41100]

If Bob watched this interpretation of song I think he would have a good laugh. But then again he must get sick of people trying to use his music to push their own agenda.

[wordonfirevideo]

@alias41100 Friend, listen to the song and then take a good look at the book of the prophet Isaiah and then tell me that I'm "pushing an agenda" alien to Bob Dylan's intention.

[Drandon]

@alias41100

Bob wrote three definitively Christian albums in the 80's. That said, Bob leaves the themes of his songs completely open to the listener. He may laugh, but it would probably be in astonishment of such a vast interpretation rather than derision. Something like "You got all that??? Man, I AM good!"

Blessings onya!

[MrNewkingjames]

ironically it is not possible to sell your soul to the devil.Jesus christ has redeemed his elect and our destiny is not negotiable with anyone I f this priest would use drugs he would realise that profundity is proportional to joint size

[Jitpring]

Fr. Barron, what do you think of all the nonsense here on youtube about Dylan selling his soul to the devil?

[dogma2100]

That's what makes him a Joker!

Cross reference the lyrics to Jokerman and you will see.

[dogma2100]

What about the possibility that the Joker is God?

That would explain the song Jokerman.

[wordonfirevideo]

@dogma2100 "There must be some way out of here," said the joker to the thief. There's too much confusion; I can't get no relief." I don't know: that just doesn't sound like God to me!

[9999norton]

OK, Fr, nicely done.

Now let's hear your take on Visions of Johanna :-)

[Mojosbigstick]

..or not.

[casperdog777]

Excellent Fr. Barron, great series keep up the good work !

[KyrieEleison46]

Really nice video.

[Balzo93]

Bob Dylan is a poet. This is a nice inturprettation from Father Barron and he might even be right about the songs meaning. By John Wesley Harding Bob is known to have had a Bible pride of place in his kitchen in Woodstock. But the thing I love about the poetry of Dylan is the room he gives you to read it in the way you want to without giving anything away himself. I like to listen to Bob in all kinds of ways, but I am not going to stick to 1 definite interpretation.

[TorontoLarrivee]

Very interesting; this sparked a new interest in this song for me, having sort of tuned it out after it was overplayed in covers by U2 etc. Any thoughts on songs from Dylan's gospel period? I find it interesting how he emphasizes themes of God's vengeance (e.g., in Slow Train, Precious Angel, When You Gonna Wake Up, etc).

[misterzonker2584]

I don't quite know how I feel about your interpretation of this song, but it sure is intriguing!

[ohmercy]

Thank You!

[Capuano231]

A great priest... Great musical thoughts. God bless him.

[Nemesis000000]

Fr. Barron, I would love to hear your comments on the new Battlestar Galactica series. Yeah, that's no small request if you haven't seen it as it's 4 seasons of TV, but it's a very religion themed and driven show framed in a sci-fi/military concept. At the end of the third season, All Along the Watchtower literally becomes an integral part of the show and the developments of the final season, which is interesting since the show is set in a totally different world than ours.

[abucs]

My Favourite Dylan song about Jesus

Suddenly I turned around and she was standing there

With silver bracelets on her wrists and flowers in her hair

She walked up to me so gracefully and took my crown of thorns

"Come in" she said"I'll give you shelter from the storm".

In a little hilltop village they gambled for my clothes

I bargained for salvation and they gave me a lethal dose

I offered up my innocence and got repaid with scorn

"Come in" she said "I'll give you shelter from the storm".

[DJH1170]

@abucs

I know the verse about the " Little Hilltop Village" eludes to Christ, but I have never thought that was what Shelter is centrally about. I've always thought it was about Man's relationship with Society. At first it saved him from a world of Toil and blood, by the communal efforts, and for that reason he'll always do right by "her" (Society) But he has out grown it, because somewhere along the way he "Took too much for Granted" and the deputy started walking on hard nails... continued

[DJH1170]

@abucs (part 2)

They don't give you much room, So continuing my remarks from Reply 1- "the Deputy on hard nails" (Authoritarian Cruel Jerks) started to run society and so singing in first person eluding to the Christ story "I offered up my innocence, Got repaid with Scorn.." until he finds himself "Living in a foreign country, bound to cross the line" The "line" being LAW. to quote "Up to me" written in the same creative cycle " I was just too stubborn to ever be governed by enforced insanity"

[abucs]

@DJH1170 Thanks. I look at this as someone reflecting on their own life while thinking about the life of Jesus. In the last verse he associates the 'She' who gives the invitation of a 'shelter from the Storm' with God. That is through the solidarity with the sufferring of Jesus (God) he has this invitation and though he lives in a foreign country (away from god) he's bound to cross the line (and accept that invitation). This explains the continual change from his own words to Jesus' words.

[Bosso0]

Also he is clearly correct for the simple fact that,

1 it adds up

2 Dylan was a deep religious artist and music/art is a way of expressing something, be it your self, a human emotion or w/e

Everyone here commenting against this being biblical is just being stupid I mean its clear as day that this is actually what the song means, but does that mean you can't enjoy it? The bible is yet another book full of stories made up by man you can relate to it in any sence without believing in god.

[Bosso0]

Fun interpretation, though I don't get why this has to be such a discussion, make of it what you want to make of it its your own interpretation this is one and you can have one, shut up and enjoy the music.

[wildhias]

hmm interesting, i have always seen the song as not particuarly leaving the point of Sartre, life is meaningless, but this information does not help us, so we have to live life as if it had meaning, that's how I read the thief. And the princess is waiting for the meaning of her life, maybe for Prince charming, wheras all the servants down have their fun - but the riders with the truth about life are aproaching.

thoug dis does not account for the Bible similarities - father B makes sense too

[0neofthem]

this guy is pretty cool

[Laimonel]

I dont believe in god, but this interpretation was great!

[rdhaynie]

im a christian. i dont think this is a legit parallel. im classifying this overanalyzing. sorry

[33Barker]

BOB DYLAN RULES!!!

[sanytsan]

people can relate anything and everything to the bible if they try hard enough

[misterzonker2584]

@sanytsan Yup. Though I'm about halfway with Fr. Barron on this interpretation, I think there's more to the song besides Issiah.

[boypaslot]

so uh, are u gonna let us take a hit on that bong?

[ashton8504]

adf

[ashton8504]

if anyone has a problem with a preacher discussing pop culture via bob dylan via john wesley harding you are a moron. This album even rolling stone claimed was dylan interpreting the bible. Not to mention the only person who would know what the song was about or whom it was about would be dylan himself. But every theory on this song is interesting.

[DrWeiland]

"No one knows what it is worth!"... keep reading Barron - you are almost there.... liberate te ex inferis, "padre"....

[ShawnMichaelNeal]

Very interesting take on a great song. I personally never would have thought of it that way.

[ElvisRockatansky]

Late to the party, but oddly the joker and thief references also evoked in me for awhile now the same image of the two thieves executed on either side of Jesus. The joker - mocking, dismissive of any meaning to life; the thief - a wrongdoer who nevertheless recognizes his wrong, which means he also recognizes what's right. The joker knows neither wrong nor right. He is a nihilist, like so many modern sages. That's what I hear, anyway.

[HMDerek4]

Brilliant.

[seraphimsigrist]

I also like the thought that the thief who says

'the hour is getting late" can be the thief in the

night of matthew.

on another level I hope that the second thief

indeed is 'the joker' in some sense the trickster

and outsider whom God loves and with whom

agreement will be made in the end. perhaps

a bit of an allegorism here as to dylan but

hey!

[michiganois]

ZeProcrastinator: Translation: "I hate Catholic thinking & beliefs. I mock anyone who values or refers to everyday Catholic life. I am a bigot who doesn't have to work at it & just try to be, which ain't much."

[wordonfirevideo]

Listen carefully to the lyrics to All Along the Watchtower, and then read the book of the prophet Isaiah and tell me that I'm just projecting my beliefs.

[bongolongo]

@wordonfirevideo Did Pink Floyd write 'Dark Side Of The Moon' to match the Wizard of Oz movie? I'd like to know, because they match up perfectly too.

Never underestimate the human capacity for seeing patterns where there are none.

Have you asked Mr. Dylan if your interpretation is correct? I don't think I'd presume to know what other people thought during a creative process before I had asked them in person. It's very, very presumptious to do so on your own.

[wordonfirevideo]

@bongolongo Then you've ruled out 99.9% of all literary interpretation! Last time I checked, we can't discuss the meaning of Moby Dick with Herman Melville or the themes of Oliver Twist with Charles Dickens. That doesn't stop the informed critic from analyzing as far as he can, the forms on display in the work.

[satinhell818]

@wordonfirevideo

umm...quite interesting,I will read the Bible book of Isaiah  tomorrow.

[jakeharvey]

Ever listen to his Gospel albums? Or the many other explicit biblical references in the rest of Dylan's work? Why with so much explicit biblical content would you fail to imagine there might also be quite a bit of implicit content?

[Blueinquisitor]

Dylan was jewish, then he converted to Christianity, and now shuns all organised religion. He converted in 1978-9 so when he sung this he still affiliated himself with Judaism. Mind you he sund I dreamed I saw St. Augustine around then aswell... meh

[DAGDATA]

hello.... i just think dylan is jewish if his not his not

[DAGDATA]

Is dylan not jewish then? For barron says his lyrics are that copy'd the bible verse that almost in his words means jesus saves the world so he must be also saying his christian.

[Entropy3ko]

Yes he is jewish by birth, but later on, around the end of the 70s, he converted to Christianity. He did not, however, cut all his ties with judaism as far as I know.

[cloverfield911]

This song is the centrepiece to the TV series "Battlestar Galactica" Check it out.

[ColtonDean]

-No spoilers!

-But yeah I think Fr. Barron's explanation helps the BSG mythology.

[VeryEvilPettingZoo]

Very interesting. I should've guessed it was a biblical reference. I'd always assumed the princes watching as the riders were coming with the wind was to seal the sense of foreboding indicated by "the hour's getting late." The biblical reference that they carry the message the Babylon has fallen means I had it wrong; your analysis is much better. If the watchtower is the cross, why is it princes, plural, keeping the view? The trinity? And wasn't Christ's mission more than to watch and wait?

[HammerofHeretics]

Maybe the plural usage of prince relates to the princes that foreshadowed Christ's coming, like David and Solomon.

[VeryEvilPettingZoo]

Perhaps it's evil or earthly powers watching for/dreading their coming defeat?

Ephesians 6:12 "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places" High places like a watchtower? I dunno. Interesting. Thanks.

[goukigp01]

This guy is an asshat. Its very clear from the song and by the messengers who deliver the song (Dylan/Hendrix), that the song is about authority which usurps people's lives and inevitable confrontation against it.

I cant fault the guy for having his own view of art, but the song is clearly anti-authority. Which is ironic hearing the priest comment on it because religion is absolutely a vestige of authority the song comments against.

[wordonfirevideo]

Two problems with that reading, friend. Dylan was deeply religious himself, and the riders in the song are taken directly from the prophet Isaiah.

[Neddhartha]

Dylan: still alive and well, not "was". Otherwise I agree with you.

[misterzonker2584]

@wordonfirevideo I certainly won't call you an asshat, but your reading of his music is not shared with mine, I'm afraid. Even if there are Biblical allusions in this song, which there may be, Bob Dylan was religious in the sense that he valued the power of music. He has said, "I find the religiosity and philosophy in the music. I don't find it anywhere else." To be fair, he did convert to Christianity in the late 1970's, but also to be fair, it was part of his search for truth in music.

[benabaxter]

@misterzonker2584 All paths lead to Christ, friend. Even music.

[Bulloxe4]

@benabaxter

I'm training to be a scientist

So far that path lead's only away from Christ. Sorry.

[wordonfirevideo]

@Bulloxe4 Well then you need much better teachers--either of science or religion! Christ is identified in the New Testament as the Logos of God, the "mind" through which all things were made. All science rests upon the finally mystical assumption that being, in its entirely, is intelligibile, endowed with form and structure. We say "in the beginning was the Word" and that through that Word all things came to be. The ground of science is precisely what became flesh in Jesus.

[Bulloxe4]

@wordonfirevideo

I didn't have a religion teacher since I was 12 years old. And about my science teacher's, well there's a lot of work to be done. You know what I found out. Real science is difficult. Mastering all the mathematics needed, understanding all the concepts, the methods, it's a hard thing to do. It takes time and work.

Philosophical discussion about final causes is something usually left aside. And I don't blame univerities for doing that.

[Teflon65]

@wordonfirevideo To me, there seems to be some linguistic undertone, or overtone, to the idea that "in the beginning was the Word". The concept of Logos reminds me of when Christ said something to the effect of "Let those who have ears hear, and let those who have eyes see." I'm not sure when I'm going with this, but perhaps, like faith, it is something I intuit. I also often feel that we have not lost all the instincts we collectively had, during earlier periods of evolution.

[benabaxter]

@misterzonker2584 All paths lead to Christ, friend. Especially music.

[eagleperch]

@goukigp01 Seeing how Dylan agrees with the Biblical analysis one might think that it might lead lead you to question your mindset, bias, and perceptions not to mention the quality of your judgement. Any cursory viewing of Dylan's lyrics reveals continual Biblical allusions, of course, you have had to have read it to perceive this!

[littleredbirdy]

I doubt a preacher should bother with pop culture. It's our duty to preach The Gospel, and it is an offensive Gospel.

The Gospel is offensive and its preachers should not bother with anything other than it..

What have you gained by talking about Dylan or other pop culture phenomena? People's souls are on the verge of the totality of God's wrath.....Do you not realize that?

[wordonfirevideo]

What was Paul doing on the Areopagus when he praised aspects of the religious philosophy of the Greeks? He was reaching out to the environing culture for points of contact with the Gospel. This strategy was practiced, in turn, by Origen, Augustine, Irenaeus, Thomas Aquinas, and practically every other major theologian.

[littleredbirdy]

The emergent church is attempting to do the same thing as we now speak of. As Paul said, "scripture is sufficient". Thomas Aquinas essentially said that scripture was not necessary to obtain salvation, which is heretical.

Besides, if Peter was given the keys to Heaven as Catholics suppose how did Paul enter the church?

Reasoning with and relating to sinners does not accomplish conversion. It happens when the Holy Spirit leads and the Gospel is preached.

[vint7107]

actually Paul says "scripture is profitable" NOT "SUFFICIENT." There was a Greek word for sufficient, but he did not use it!

[littleredbirdy]

That is fine, and I will admit I was wrong.

The Holy Spirit is sufficient.

[Entropy3ko]

No Thomas Aquinas never said that, essentially or otherwise. On the contrary, scripture is the base of Aquinas work.

[littleredbirdy]

I recall Paul getting upset when he first arrived in Greece. When did he show admiration toward their religious beliefs?

"Having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof"

What did Paul mean by this statement? What power are we talking about? The power of reason? That would be absurd.

He speaks of the modern church, the protestant, orthodox and catholic.

I take it you are not a fan of John Wesley, Charles Spurgeon, Thomas Manton or George Whitefield...

[Oliver1456]

littleredbirdy you try to drive people away from God. Do you think you are that holy? When some one stole something from Francis of Assisi, he ran and gave him his cloak as well. When Francis was tempted to sin, he would throw himself into the thorn bushes. He gave away EVERTHING that he owned and took care of the downtrot his whole life. Just humble yourself. Gospel is not offensive, it's beautiful. Amen

[TamaradeLempickas]

I just discovered these videos. Love them!

[Jitpring]

An analysis of Dylan's "I Dreamed I Saw St. Augustine" - from the John Wesley Harding album - would also be most welcome.

[Jitpring]

Excellent analysis, Father. Dylan's late music is just as ripe, if not more, for such analyses, especially the albums Time Out of Mind and Modern Times.

[wordonfirevideo]

Yes, I agree with you. Perhaps I'll get around to commenting on the more recent work. Thanks for the suggestion.

[luminouspics]

Good insight

[wehz0r]

good job buddy, keep up the good works!

[smacclutch]

way to go Fr. Barron, you da man!

[Kernunn0s]

Well, I didn't know this song was referring to a passage in the Bible. But this interpretation is narrow-minded, almost fundamentalist (was has Jesus got to do with the fall of Babylon, I wonder ???)

You can have an agnostic reading of this story : how we find it hard to look forward in this hard, God-forsaken world, how the joker and the thief understand life.

+ NO ! 'the hour's getting late' doesn't announce the biblical 'end of the world' ! lol

It's the realisation that all men die.

[anakephalaiosis333]

When read against the backdrop of Dylan's entire work, your interpretations just don't add up. Dylan's take on life has been, throughout his career, deeply Biblical. And the lateness of the hour, the "slow train coming," the "hard rain" that's going to fall, the "thunder on the mountain" are thus all apocalyptic in tone. To read these deeply resonant Biblical images in a secular way is out of step with Dylan's often-stated intentions.

[slickskillet123]

all songs mean different things to

different people.

[anakephalaiosis333]

Sure, there's always a subjective element in interpreting works of art. Nevertheless, there are some pretty clear objective standards that can be evoked and objective evidence that can be indicated. So I wouldn't leave things as open-ended as you suggest. To claim that All Along the Watchtower has nothing to do with the book of the prophet Isaiah seems, to say the least, a stretch.

[slickskillet123]

has anybody ever asked dylan what he was

writing about.was it biblical at all.

[anakephalaiosis333]

There are numerous interviews with Bob Dylan in which he acknowledges how important the Bible is in his work. But there is also the sheer number of Biblical references in his songs. But it's also important not simply to identify the meaning of a work of art with the stated intention of its producer. Otherwise, we could never attempt to interpret Plato, Aristotle, Dante, or Shakespeare.

[slickskillet123]

i don't give a shit about those fags! only pretentious people study theese

antiques!!WORTHLESS!

[anakephalaiosis333]

Thank you for that balanced and considered response.

[slickskillet123]

i'm into the here and now.i don't

brag because i read war and peace.or i was in the service and seen action.that does not

make me a man or any better than anyone else!

[anakephalaiosis333]

Friend, I have no idea how that observation has anything to do with how we interpret a work of art.

[slickskillet123]

it has nothing to do with it.

just thiking about punks who

think they know it all.you know

those guys don't you?

[jdrudo]

Perhaps you're right, I'm stepping into a larger discussion. But your "Watchtower" commentary is based, I think, in Orthodox views of what Christ and Bob Dylan are all about. I think organizations often smear that truth. Try to pigeonhole it. I do like what you say about hope in the face of nihilism. I would like to discuss Gnosticism and Orthodoxy with you...

[anakephalaiosis333]

The major difference between us is that you seem to think that orthodoxy is a bad thing: oppressive, restrictive, etc. But that's a gnostic prejudice. The great claim of orthodox Christianity is that God has, if you will, pigeonholed himself by becoming human. But this is not a restriction of his mystery, but rather an intensification of it. And its ultimate purpose is to charm us into friendship again with God. I would urge you not to be afraid such a liberating doctrine!

[jdrudo]

By orthodoxy,I assume you saying that Jesus is the ultimate means to some religious end.If you are using Jesus and Mr Dylan as metaphors for a universal truth that spans human history and dropped in on Nazareth and the 20th century to shed a little light, OK.But the organized idolatry of Jesus helps to bury a message that the Gnostics and other mystics throughout time offer us:Like Dylan and the other Jew understood, God is in your heart. Lets not forget men chose books for a cannon. We all do.

[anakephalaiosis333]

I think you're getting a little far afield here. I was making the claim that All Along the Watchtower contains a number of key Biblical themes and can best be interpreted from a Scriptural perspective. If you want to have a debate about Gnosticism and orthodoxy, that's fine, but it's for another day.

[jdrudo]

All works pretty well for me until you get to the last verse of the song. Then you slip into orthodoxy and all the religious jargon that goes back to organizing Jesus in a mess of Theology. All along the watchtower, princes kept the view...this thing we're going through has been going and going and will go on in many ways when all goes away. All might read the Gnostic Gospels to get another take on that old story the Father's tied in a knot. The Gospel of Mary Magdalene for starters.

[anakephalaiosis333]

Well, if by "orthodoxy" you mean the book of the prophet Isaiah and the announcement of the fall of Babylon, then I'm guilty as charged. But I don't see how my reading of this is the least out of step with the rather clear intention of the song. Why would Dylan mention the two riders unless he were interested in what they were about to announce? As for the Gnostic Gospels, let me just say that they were rejected by the church for a very good reason!

[superfrodies]

great commentary. I really like your interpretation of the watchtower as being up on the cross and seeing the world from Jesus and the two criminal's POV. I love Bob Dylan but never made this connection before. Thanks for your wise insight! Please do more dylan commentaries!

[WLDB]

Hmm thats a very neat way of looking at the song. I new it was probably his most biblical song but didnt exactly know where the story was. I think I'll check out those parts of the Bible now.

[rossfanman]

Who does his voice sound like? It's driving me crazy. It sounds so familiar.

[rossfanman]

Now I know.  If you are from the Philly area, he sounds like Wally Kennedy, local newsguy.

[UnBeguiled]

Bob Dylan is an atheist.

This Father Barron reminds me of someone, but I can't nail it down. It's his voice and the rhythm of his speech. John Ankerberg maybe? I'll sleep on it, my unconscious brain will flip through the files and make the connection I'm sure.

[anakephalaiosis333]

Friend, that is ludicrous. It shows that you have paid practically no attention to Dylan's work for the past 40 years.

[UnBeguiled]

Correction: Change that "practically no attention" to "no attention whatsoever".

I did hear on NPR a few weeks ago an interview with Dylan where he asserted his atheism, although I don't know when that was recorded. Last reports indicate evasiveness when questioned about his beliefs.

So I admit my declaration was uninformed and perhaps out of date.

[Catholicdrummer]

Thanks for the great insights on how that song is contected to our faith Fr. Barron!

[FrankenBeenz]

This guy reads God & the bible into everything because if the bible is a book of deception & there is no God, he'd be out of a job & his life would have no meaning.

[anakephalaiosis333]

Thanks for that evenhanded and unbiased reply! You think I'm reading things in to Dylan's song? Listen to the lyrics of All Along the Watchtower and then take a good long look at Isaiah chapter 21. I'll let you decide.

[FrankenBeenz]

read isaiah 7:14 and you tell me what the prophets name is supposed to be & what that name means in Hebrew, and then you tell me how the hell he got a name like Jesus Christ. The new & old testament is a mixture of lies & truths.

Knowledge moves mountains, beliefs make slaves. Those who commissioned the writing of the Bible were interested in making slaves.

[anakephalaiosis333]

Ah yes, knowledge. Marx and his successors, having thrown off the yoke of religion, endeavored to present a "scientific" account of history.  Last time I checked, they seemed to produce an awful lot of slaves (not to mention mountains of corpses). Don't drive a wedge between "knowledge" and "faith." They're both ways of coming to terms with the real. As for Isaiah, the problem you pose arises only when the text is approached literalistically.

[FrankenBeenz]

Marx and his successors simply replaced belief in God, with belief in The State. They may have meant well in the beginning but that experiment went awry, when the greedy and corrupt, corrupted their true intent & message. The same went for the one renamed Jesus Christ. His teachings were falsified bigtime and in his name and the name of love, 18 million died in the Inquisition. Not to mention the modern day crusaders.

[anakephalaiosis333]

I'll grant you the corruption of Jesus' followers down through the centuries, but that is perfectly congruent with the doctrine of original sin: we know that human beings tend to go bad. So what? That says nothing against Jesus or the integrity of Christian doctrine.

[FrankenBeenz]

that mans followers renamed him jesus and so they corrupted his teachings almost from day one. changing his name was the least of it. Original sin is an original sin in itself. There is no integrity in the christian doctrine. It was corrupted from the get go.

[anakephalaiosis333]

I don't know where you've gotten the idea that the first Christians changed Jesus' name. From what? Why? What's your evidence? Yeoushua (Jesus) was an exceptionally common name in first century Palestine. In regard to original sin, I would appreciate an argument please.

[FrankenBeenz]

I'll stick 2 literal translation.

Isaiah 7:14: "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Imman'u-el." And again in the New Testament, Matthew 1:23: "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel."

Why was his name changed & when, to Jesus? The new testament was commissioned around 322CE by Constantine to spread & organize Immanuels teachings in Constantinople.

[anakephalaiosis333]

Friend, I'm afraid that you're the one who has been victimized by propaganda! Paul's letters date from the 50's and 60's of the first century, and the Gospels from the latter third of the first century. All of them contain clear affirmations of the divinity of Jesus. Consider, to take just one of dozens of quotes, Paul's "though he was in the form of God, Jesus did not deem equality with God something to be grasped at." That was composed around the year 50 AD.

[slickskillet123]

you are deeply disturbed and have no

knowledge of the word!!!

[FrankenBeenz]

The knowledge that has been implanted in you, that piece of christian propaganda/software, has been falsified. What you call the 'word', are falsifications to create slaves of belief. If you are lucky, you will see it in this lifetime. Unlikely but you never know.

This is truly what your 'Jesus' said:

"The happiness of humans consists in seeking and finding the truth, so they may thereby gather knowledge, gain wisdom, and think and act in accordance with Creation."

[FrankenBeenz]

btw the name Immanuel, as translated from Hebrew means "the one with godly knowledge". Now why would that name need to be falsified into Jesus Christ which means "the anointed one"?  Perhaps, they wanted to deify the fellow against his express wishes.

Isaiah 21 is full of typical 'Lord this, Lord that, Lord, Lord, Lord' nonsense.

[anakephalaiosis333]

Perhaps you could be a bit less of a clunky literalist and show something of the imagination of the first Christians. They weren't claiming that the Isaiah passage corresponded to Jesus in every little detail but rather in its basic thrust. The Emmanuel that Isaiah spoke of was, therefore, a "type" of Jesus.

[FrankenBeenz]

You're twisting the obvious to justify and rationalize your brainwashing. I apologize for using such a word. So to rephrase, you are twisting what fits exactly to a T; to suit what you have been led to believe, and not only you, but literally millions and millions.

What would you do if your facts are false? You are unable to even consider it.

[anakephalaiosis333]

But friend, what if your "facts" are false? Why is the burden of proof always on religious claims and not on the presuppositions of modernity? Are you able to consider that?  If you are dissatisfied with some aspect of Christianity, offer me an argument and not just name calling.

[FrankenBeenz]

I have investigated both sides. I grew up with your version and there were too many things that didn't sit well. The fact remains that Judaism, Christianity & Islam come from the same source/lineage but people falsified each of them to further their own status quo/beliefs. The result of these falsifications is division and bloodshed.

[FrankenBeenz]

The one known as Jesus tried to get the Jews of his day back to Ancient Hebrew teachings, but the Jewish establishment of the day was threatened by him. Christianity soon became altered/falsified as did Judaism before it. Myths arose, incorrect interpretations of events and his words were spread, taught & accepted as true, to this very day. The same happened with Mohammed. If Jesus showed up today, he would not be accepted by most of todays christians as he wasn't by most of those days jews.

[anakephalaiosis333]

No it doesn't. It means "God is with us."

[FrankenBeenz]

That is the self-serving Christian mythic translation. The Hebrew name צמנואל —Immanu'el" conveys a rich, spiritually deep, insightful knowledge of YHVH/Yahueh, and the purpose of the child's life here on earth.

The correct meaning is 'the one with godly knowledge or wisdom.'

You are of course free to stick to your commonly accepted translation, as incorrect as it is.

[anakephalaiosis333]

But you haven't told me where you get any of this from! What are your sources? How could they be more credible than those that come from the first century? Where did you study Hebrew? Every Hebrew dictionary I've ever consulted has Immanuel as "God is with us."

[FrankenBeenz]

The source is Judas Iscariot who was Jesus's scribe. Judas was not his betrayer but was singled out to be his betrayer by authorities to show the people that his #1 disciple had left his camp & that they were divided amoungst themselves. Divide & conquer. Do authorities not misportray facts,ie the case for invading Iraq? The betrayer was Judah Iscah, a Pharisees son. THe Gospel of Matthew comes from one of two copies of Judas stolen notes.

[anakephalaiosis333]

Man, that is just fantasy! The earliest and best sources we have on Jesus are the canonical Gospels and the Pauline letters. Classical Christian orthodoxy is far more historically accurate than any gnostic speculation.

[FrankenBeenz]

No fantasy, NOT a gnostic source. As a Father, you owe it to yourself, first, and then to those who trust you, to check this out. Do a Google search for: Jim Deardorff

Research Professor Emeritus

Oregon State University.

He has spent 20 years on exactly where the gospel of Matthew came from and it is not a gnostic source. Like I said, which you automatically kneejerk dismiss; the source is Judas Iscariot. I ain't blowing smoke up your crack. Do your due diligence, Father.

[anakephalaiosis333]

You're really convinced that a retired professor at Oregon State University has successfully undermined two thousand years of Christian scholarship!

[FrankenBeenz]

By 'scholarship', you must be referring to 2000 years of Christian falsification and editing.

That retired professor is merely analyzing the gospel of Matthew with Judas's text. See for yourself. Perhaps you are afraid.

Jim Deardorf would be most happy to have an adult, respectful conversation with you.

If you had any interest in the real truth, you'd at least have a look.

Apparently its too risky for you and your self protective arrogance. C'est la vie.

[anakephalaiosis333]

Friend, spare me the condescension.

[Jitpring]

Ah yes, like the rest of today's herd of "individuals," FrankenBeenz embraces today's version of gnostic nonsense. No doubt, he also embraces lots of other fashionable nonsense, such as Eckhart Tolle's drivel and tattoos. Isn't it true, FrankenBeenz, that you've branded yourself with at least one tattoo? Tell the truth.

[FrankenBeenz]

Jitpring - You are clearly a low grade moron.

I have no tattoos, not that it would matter if I did.

I am not interested in Tolle, nor would it matter if I was.

You brand anything not sanctioned by the Vatican, gnostic, so you can dismiss it without so much as a glance.

There was no prophet who went by the name Jesus Christ.

You've been duped. Not to worry, you have plenty of company and thus safety in numbers.

[Jitpring]

FrankenBeenz, it took you that long to come up with this feeble retort? Strange.

By the way, are there high grade morons?

[FrankenBeenz]

I don't check my mailbox every day. I came up with that feeble retort in no time at all.

Of course there are high grade morons. That should be your goal in this lifetime.

---

"You will be misunderstood and denounced, because Earth humans are still ignorant and

addicted to delusionary beliefs.

Do not heed these false teachings, however, because millennia will pass before the people of these human lineages are capable of recognizing the truth."

[Jitpring]

Incredible. You high grade youtube morons never cease to amaze!

[vint7107]

Try reading Isaiah 21 and listening to the song.

[vint7107]

wow...I never saw the connection to Isaiah 21 with Dylan. Thanks a lot Padre!