Like Robert tells me, 'It's amazing how the mistranslating of these three scriptures in the Bible have caused the untold deaths of possibly millions of innocent people.''
Well, we're making some Videos about this, as a friendly documentary without the scary music. Because the blind leaders of the blind is scary enough, knowing that they didn't read the Hebrew Text closely enough...!
My friend shows on his face book info page, robert john huffine, that the Hebrew Language of the Bible does not ever condemn at all the fact of homosexuality. Instead, it says ''With rememberance, never you shall lay with my concubine of a wife. It is hateful.'' "With rememberance" is interjected into the middle of the twentieth chptr, verse thirteen. And deut. twenty-two verse five doesn't say anything about genders wearing each others' clothes. Gimme a break.
What about the chapters 1 thru 9 of Leviticus can someone explain to me why anyone would be religious after reading these pagan rituals of slaughtering animals, "sprinkling blood" on the altars, dipping fingers in blood and waving them seven times toward the east the drain blood at base of altar then burning the sacrifice with fire then eating it for the glory of god?
We Jews accept homosexuality. Homosexuality and love is no sin. But anal sex is unforgivable. Everything else is allowed. There is no law against homosexual love.
We Jews accept homosexuality. Homosexuality and love is no sin. But anal sex is unforgivable. Everything else is allowed. There is no law against homosexual love.
Lev.18,22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind; it is abomination.
Lev.20,13 And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
awesomely thorough, as a fairly observant jew that has delved into all of this biblical study on my own as well i think it's awesome that you've taken the time to look into all the cultural details of the time and the torah's context within Judaism, something that i feel is often neglected when i discuss this with others.
by the way it's the end of rosh hashana over here. so lashana tovah!
I do the same thing sometimes. You can tell when I've written an article, written a skeletal note system, or if I'm improvising. However, everything I say, unless specified, is my own material. I see nothing wrong with refining your linguistic art by exercising it in either text or video form. Don't let this be considered a weakness, or allow it to dishevel you. In fact, I'll post a video response and you may accept it, or you may not. Either way, have a good day/life. :)
So if a kid gets burned alive by the idol molech is that just a cult practice.? So someone can burn a kid alive and that would be okay. If someone did a beast in a religious setting that would be bad in your opinion but it they do it in love that is fine. So only if someone that has intercourse of the opposite sex that is not their spouse that would be sin. However you are implying that there are no sin in same sex or animal sex. Why would God only limit straights on sex and not gays?
i think that those verses refer more to adultery, as in a man cheats on his wife with another man, which obviously IS an abomination. however, i also think the fact that it says "as you would with a woman" doesn't apply to gay men because they WOULDN'T lie with a woman.
The Laws within Leviticus was directed solely to THE LEVITE'S - ergo, the title.
If you check Lev 20:1-5, you'll find Yahweh's competitor, Molech. The (male) Priests of Molech dressed themselves up like females & had sex with the male worshippers who entered the temple.
Lev 20:13 directs THE LEVITE PRIESTS to not behave in that same way!
Lev 18:22 is MISTRANSLATED. It should say: MALE (BEASTS) should not lay with women .. and is continued in verse 23, neither any beast ...
INNATE human sexuality (hetero, homo, bi) is different to the CHOICE of human deviance (zoophilia, pedophilia, theft, etc) What is written in 1 Cor. 6:9 is about "homosexual offenders" who engage in pedaphilic acts with young boys as temple prostitutes. Trust me there are more written about Heterosexual offenders than Homosexual offenders. Example: I did a personal research on NBC's "TO CATCH A PREDATOR" and found about 90 percent of pedophiliacs are Heterosexuals, and 10 percent are Homosexuals
Yes! I agree. I think 90 percent of pedo's are heterosexual men after little girls. There are homosexual pedo's as well, but since they are 7 % or whatever of the population, it will be smaller. I'm not sure about the female pedo's. It's all gross I think. I think it's funny people will equate homosexuality to child molestation. I'm thinking "HUH"?
think you're right, considering you quite answered my question to you. If you think homosexuality is a sin, and yet you know of it to be innate, why call it a sin and not homosexuality and bisexuality as well? It's like saying being heterosexual is not a sin, actively practicing heterosexuality is a sin...you've pretty much beat around the bush on that one, but I'm trying to come to an understanding so...sorry if you choose not to discusss this further
I never said anything about heterosexuality being a sin! Where did you get that from? Of course practicing heterosexuality is not a sin, God created it that way. Homosexuality originated in sin. So did the desire to have sex before marriage and all other sinful desires, if I didn't make that clear enough already. What denomination are you and what church do you attend BTW?
No, you're not understanding me. I said since you pointed out that homosexality is innate and not a choice, and yet you call it a sin, I quote from your ealier comment "homosexuality is not a sin, but practicing homosexuality is a sin" Why in the world would you flip flop like that? And so it's the same effect as if I were to say that heterosexuality is not a sin, but practicing heterosexuality is a sin...do you see how this doesn't make sense?
continued...why must you know what denomination or church I attend? Can I say that I'm simply a Christian, just as you are? Okay, okay, I'm a Gay Christian, just as you are a Straight Christian, how about that? But if you must know, I attend a non-denominational church. And yes, my church members know that I'm a Gay Christian, but they love me, just as God loves me...unconditionally.
continued...Okay let me ask you again so I can really understand you, because so far you're confusing me tremedously: Do you really think homosexuality, heterosexuality, bisexuality are all innate or all choices?
continued...and do you really take the Bible literally or do you have interpretations of it in the current times? Because in regards to Straight people let me give some verses on what God says about straight people: Deut. 22:13-21, Deut. 22:22, Mark 10:11-12 (this particular verses really goes for those churh members who are or were divorced), Lev. 18:19 (basically if a man has sex with a woman in her period, both should die), Gen. 38:9-10 (gay or straight, it's anybody who masturbates)..explain
If you really intend on following Leviticus you're going to have to: stone you unruly kids to death (Lev.20:9), don't allow tattooed folks into church (Lev.19:28), don't allow folks who eat pork into church (Lev. 11:7), don't allow folks who eat shrimp in to church (Lev. 11:7), and many more to follow. Oh and don't forget to kick out Gay Christians out of church as stated in Lev. 18:22. There is a reason why we don't have to worry about these anymore...Jesus died for us.
Yes and that's also why God (through Paul and others) laid out new principles for us. The New Testament not only tells us that homosexuality is wrong, but also defines marriage as between one man and one woman. See Romans and 1 Corinthians. And please don't get so caught in over anaylizing that you forget the basic principles of Christianity. In right vs. wrong situations like this, the Holy Spirit makes it clear to me that homosexuality is wrong.
Romans1: There are references in the Bible to the "holy ones" who were the temple prostitutes, even in Jerusalem. People engaged in sex in the temple,in exchange for money used to support the priests. Homosexuals,Hetoersexual,Bisexuals men & women in a cesspool of sexual worship. It was common in the ancient world. Paul's followers slipped from their Christian practices and engaged in the Bacchanalia, celebrated in the spring and autumn, and they envolved a lot of drunken sex, like Mardi Gras.
continued...so Paul's letter to the Romans clearly wasn't meant to condemn homosexuals, homosexual acts or homosexuality, he was condemning newly converted Christians who were slipping back into pagan ways through sexual worship (be it mutual masturbation, solo masturbation, gay or straight kissing, multiple heterosexual or homosexual partners), sorry for being so graphic, but it's the reality of the past. Homophobes don't read the entire letter and take a few sentences out of context.
continued, plus, let me give you a snippet of my Gay Christian testimony. I used to think that my life is wrong as a gay person, when I first became attracted to the same sex when I hit puberty at the age of 11 years. I was depressed as a teenager almost to the point of suicide I prayed about it. It was then I went to college that science had revealed to me the innateness of homosexuality. But I was still reluctant, and so I prayed. Then a miracle, a film came FOR THE BIBLE TELLS ME SO. Watch it
There is nothing wrong with being homosexual. Just like there is no problem with having other sinful desires. Has flawed human beings we all have them. The problem is that gay Christians are trying to justify their sinful desires. Do not question the power of God. You can fight it. I know a few people who have persevered and through God, they were able to turn from their own gay desires. God loves people, but hates sin. Too many people get those confused.
continued...okay, I'm reading the your second comment block, and I'm even more confused.You say one thing, and yet turn it over to be against it. You can't be both at the same time. You can only have only one answer. Now I need to know in general: Do you think homosexuality is a sin? A simple yes or no, and a little explanation after that would be nice.
Homosexuality is a sin. But just because one is gay doesn't mean that you have to embrace that sinful desire. I have heard of some who, through God, were able to resist those urges. They didn't get married of course, but they stayed away from their sinful desires. I would really like to see where I have contradicted myself. As Christians we love thieves and murders, but we don't try to justify what they are doing. Thats what I mean when I say love the people hate the sin.
I don't think you read any of my historical findings that point to the fact that homosexuality is not a sin, as many has been decieved into thinking it is. Telling someone to resist or stopping their homosexuality would be the same as if someone told a heterosexual to resist or stop their sexuality from ever happening. I don't think you understand that innate human sexuality comes in three forms so far that has been determined as Heterosexuality, Homosexuality, and Bisexuality.
Where in the Bible did God say Homosexuality is ok? He defined marriage multiple times, but no homosexuals were not included in this. Science can't be used to justify this. Some people are born with a chemical imbalance that causes them to become alcoholics. That doesn't mean drinking to excess is ok does it? You don't see Christians trying to justify premarital sex or adultery just because of their earthly desires do you? The Pharisees liked to nit-pick the Bible to you know.
How about where did the Lord Jesus, Himself, ever say that homosexuals are condemned? Marriage is but a word that means a union between an intimate couple, whether gay or straight. And did you ever read Matt. 19:12, I think you'll find that interesting in that Jesus was talking about innate homosexuality. Go ahead, read and tell me what you think of it.
Paul wrote about both homosexuality and defined marriage quite specifically. Read 1 Corinthians 7:2. "For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it." Is this the verse to which you were referring? How does that talk about homosexuality? Its really saying that not every person needs to get married. Eunuchs have no sexual desires.
Yes, they were castrated so they could guard women's quarters (castrated for obvious reasons that we don't need to go into) So please tell me, what does this have to do with homosexuality.
Eunuchs in most ancient civilizations where specifically selected because of some of the male members that had feminine characteristics, or men who weren't able to marry, were then given by their families or forcefully taken to be placed in royal palaces to watch and care over the hareems of the kings. King Solomon had such hareems and perhaps even had Eunuchs. If you notice in Matt 19, Jesus talks about divorce, and those unable to marry, and goes on to talk about those born as Eunuchs (Gays).
Ok, but it doesn't say anything about these Eunuchs practicing homosexuality. This might serve as an example of people living with those desires, however it by no means says that they gave into those desires. I am signing off now. We will have to continue this discussion at a later time.
Oh trust me, I'll be waiting for our discussion tomorrow. You definitely have lots to learn from this point on. That's if you're willing to talk through this. And to as well, God bless you and thank you for your time in this discussion. Cheers.
1 Corinthians 7- Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: 'It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.' But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband." Now if Homosexuality was acceptable, why would Paul leave it out of his definition, especially when there is a chance that Paul was a Eunuch or avoided marriage for some other reason.
There are many scriptures in the Bible that pertains to particular kinds of people. There are scriptures for women (you should read 1 Cor. 11, 1 &2 Tim 2), there are scriptures for children, scriptures pertaining to singles, scriptures pertaining to men, scriptures pertaining to fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, neighbors etc. And yes, there are scriptures pertaining to Gays, and Straights. Women will read particular scripture about men, but they won't adhere to it, ditto for men, etc.
We already talked about Matt 19:12. Eunuchs are those without sex, not homosexuals. I was very shocked that you think those 2 Samuel verse talk about homosexual attraction. 1:23 talks about Saul and Jonathan being close, they were FATHER AND SON! The second verse "Jonathan MY BROTHER; you were very dear to me. Your love for me was wonderful more wonderful than that of women." David was referring to the love that is shared by brothers, not homosexual love.
Oh you better believe it's homosexual love without a doubt. Of course you're going to say it's not, I'm not surprised at all, but it's there as stated "more wonderful than that of women" You may see anyway you can interperate it. David may have been a Bisexual, but Jonathan was gay as you read the entire Samuel books.
Throughout the ancient nations that included Egypt, Babylon, Assyria and Persia; homosexuals were exalted to such positions as eunuchs that watched the women of the harem. Because of the mistrust of men, heterosexual or bi-sexual men were castrated; but homosexual males didnt need to be. I'm sure King Solomon may have had some eunuchs in his personal hareems.
continued...Eunuchs also had a recognized place in homosexual prostitution, and youths chosen as catamitic favorites were sometimes castrated. Homosexuality was long confused with eunuchry. Like effeminacy and hermaphroditism, eunuchry was sometimes thought of as creating a woman-man. The following verses will show that the Bible defines the trusted ones (or eunuchs) as homosexual males.
I would really like to know where you got these Secondary Sources. I still don't see a verse. Don't tell me what the Bible says, I want a specific passage or passages that tells of homosexuals uniting in holy matrimony as something God approves of. He talks about heterosexual marriage many times, why would he leave out homosexual marriage? If you can't provide a verse, this discussion is over, I have not more to say. People who have convinced themselves of a lie don't accept the truth readily.
Like I said in my previous comments which you obviously didn't read. Here let me cut and paste for you: "There are many that pertains to certain kinds of people like women, men, children, heterosexuals, homosexuals (or eunuchs), teachers, pastors, priests, business people, Jews, Gentiles, etc. So as a Gay Christian, the scripture parts that talk about marriage between a man and a woman, is not for Gay Christians, but only for Straight Christians." Besides, show me where Jesus condemned gays....
I have already shown you where the Bible condemns gays, but you have chosen to ignore them. Since however you can't provide a verse that shows that homosexual marriage is acceptable, there is nothing more that can be said. By the way check Matt 19:4-6. Jesus upholds that man and women leaving their parents and being joined. Now tell me, if homosexuality was acceptable, why would he leave it out? Surely you think God is smarter than that right?
And I've already explained those verses you showed me that Biblical history says homosexuality is NOT a sin. And actually Matt 19 talks about divorce (which Jesus detested, gee makes you wonder who in church now a days are or were divorced), and He goes on to talk about those persons indiposed to a heterosexual relationship. It says: If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better NOT to marry."
Also, insisting that every wrong act be condemned by Jesus is foolish. Jesus didn't specifically condemn polygamy or incest, but we know those are wrong. For the same reason too. He defined marriage, plain and simple. A kindergardener could understand that.
continued...11Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage[c]because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this SHOULD accept it."
I am not totally sure, but I'm pretty sure its innate. Whether its innate or not makes not difference. Sinful desires are innate, but we CHOOSE to follow them. CHOOSING to actively purse a homosexual relationship is a sin. I still don't see a verse.
Sin is a whole other abstract issue that goes beyond the physical realm as a result of Adam & Eve's disobedience to God's first commandment. I think sin is of the spiritual entity that once "saved" then our souls is washed sinless by the Blood of Jesus. But our flesh still remains of this world.
continued...I believe our Lord said in John 3:6-7, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (born again). So, a born-again Christian's soul is sinless by the Blood, but in the physical realm, and again, alcoholic or non-alcoholic, regardless of sexuality or race,the Christian physical body is still affected by sin. So when talking about genetic factors and sin, we're talking apples & oranges.
continued...In other words, from animals, to trees, to fruits & vegetables, to the weather phenomenon, to the human beings, to the oceans, to the entire earth, to the entire galaxy, to the entire universe, ALL IS AFFECTED BY SIN. Yes, our weather has no genetic compound to it, but it's affected by sin, our universe has no genetic compound to as well and yet it is affected by sin as it ages...as stars are being being, there are stars that dies as well.
continued...and I'm quite confuse by your contradictory thoughts. One one hand you think homosexuality is innate, and on the other hand you don't think so as you insist innate homosexuality is a sin. I'm scratching my head in confusion here. Anyway, just because your parents or pastor say homosexuality is wrong doesn't necessarily make it true. Looking back in history the Christian church accused Galileo of heresy for revealing our solar system as heliocentric, not geocentric through science
Confusion? I spelled it out for you! Being homosexual is not a sin, actively practicing homosexuality is a sin. I already explained about Jesus says homosexuality is wrong. He probably didn't say anything because it was obvious to anyone with half a brain. Why do you think he said nothing about incest? Your not going to tell me thats ok just because he didn't specifically say anything on that are you? You can go on all the tangents that you want, but I see no verse yet.
It still doesn't make sense to me. It's like saying being heterosexual is not a sin, actively practicing heterosexuality is a sin"...I don't quite understand where you're going with this. And please direct me to scriptures where you think Jesus said homosexuality is wrong. And again, you're talking apples & oranges when comparing innate human sexuality to that of pedophilia, zoophilia, necrophilia, incest, lying, hate which are all human criminal deviances.
Please read very slowly I will spell this out for you again. Innate homosexuality means you have the desire to be with the same gender right? Having sinful desires is not a sin, we all have them. Going along with those desires and doing what is wrong is a sin. Thus, being homosexual is not a sin. Going out and declaring "I'm Gay" and trying to have homosexual relationships is a sin.
Also, you seemed to have overlooked what I said about Jesus saying specific things are wrong. You seem to agree with me that incest is wrong, yet Jesus never said anything about that either. Actually he indirectly showed that both are wrong by agreeing with what is in Genesis" A man will leave his parents and be joined with his wife. You can't leave your parents if your wife was someone in your household. And you can't be united with your WIFE if you spouse is a man.
continued...Christians constantly used many biblical verses to correct Galileo on his "error". Copernicus did the same as he used science to prove that our solar system is heliocentric. And yet he was afraid of publishing his findings for fear of being arrested for heresy. Even the Protestant Reformer Martin Luther called Copernicus "a fool" For me, I actually believe science glorifies God even more. Now to I ask show me a verse where Jesus, Himself, condemned homosexuals...
"Christians constantly used biblical verses to correct Galileo on his error" How is that relevant in any way? Please stay on topic. We are talking about sin, the the positions of the sun, stars, and earth. The Bible never said the earth was the physical center or the Universe.
Using Galileo is relevant in every sense that most Christians use Biblical scriptures and not inlcude any scientific research to justify their idealogies and cause hate towards homosexuals. And I can't believe you're actually telling me that, and I quote from your comments: The Bible never said the earth was the physical center or the Universe." Are you that clueless? You're really setting yourself up for failure on this one. Did you want me to show you scriptures or are you going to find it?
continued...you really need to be consistent with your thought process here, because you can't tell me you think homosexuality is biologically innate and then call it a sin. It really doensn't make any sense at all.
We are flawed human beings. Whether something is biologically innate doesn't change whether it is right or wrong. The sex drive is biologically innate, but yet we have to keep our minds and bodies pure until marriage, despite the strong temptations to do otherwise. I would really like to see the verses that say the Earth is the physically center of the Earth.
No, you're wrong, we are not "flawed human beings" we are wonderfully and perfectly made in the image of God. However we are inherently born with sin as everything in this universe is. And I don't get what you're saying, but Gay Christians just as Straight Christians do try to keep from sinful temptations. Gay Christians do want a committed relationship.
At this point I don't really think this conversation is getting either of us anywhere, you have obviously convinced yourself of what you believe to be true, and thus I might as well talk to a brick wall. And there may have been a time when your comments and caused doubt in the back of my mind, however plenty of Bible reading and, more importantly, praying has solidified me in the position I now take. Jesus is my rock, and with him as my support, I will not be moved.
I think you're right, considering you quite answered my question to you. If you think homosexuality is a sin, and yet you know of it to be innate, why call it a sin and not homosexuality and bisexuality as well? It's like saying being heterosexual is not a sin, actively practicing heterosexuality is a sin...you've pretty much beat around the bush on that one, but I'm trying to come to an understanding so...sorry if you choose not to discusss this further.
Continued: In David's case, he was closer to Jonathan that he was to any woman. He did not say your love for me was like the love of women only more wonderful, he said your love for me was more wonderful than that of a woman. He is making a great distinction against the common misconception that a man can't love another man without being homosexual. In David's case, he valued his relationship with Jonathan more that he valued his relationship with women.
continued...and how can you say "Science can't be used to justify this"??? Did you know that science actually glorifies God even more? And you're wrong. People are not born to be alcoholics, that's the choice of the individual to partake in consuming beverages that causes drunkeness. Trust me, I come from a long line of alcoholics from my father side, and none of my siblings including me did not want anything to do with alcoholism considering the embarrassments & shame it brought to my family.
Alcoholism is caused by a chemical imbalance in the body. It makes one far more susceptible to addiction than the average person. Also, the addiction is far stronger than the average person. And so their struggle against it will be far harder, but through God, anything is possible. I too have had alcoholism in the family. Just like I have two gay uncles.
Uh, you're talking to somebody who knows what the effects of alcohol can do to one's body. I hope you know that the effects of alcohol affects every human being in this planet. There's no gene that makes a person pre-disposed to being an alcoholic. Like I said, I come from a long line of alcoholics, and I and my siblings drink only on occasions, but not to the point of drunkeness. Trust me, we've seen our father, my grandfather go through the embarrassments of drunkery. We hated alcoholism.
Don't act like a know it all. I do enjoy learning about science at school, and I do personal research in my free time. I don't know what causes the chemical imbalance, however it is very likely that it is genetic. Genetic or not, nothing justifies a sinful desire. Do you know how many problems are genetic. I have finals this week and need to go to bed so can you answer my question about the Eunuchs?
Trust me, before I went to college I had limited knowlege. You should know, you'r only 17, and have lots to learn dear boy. Trust me, you don't half of the story of the Bible and its history. Wait for high school graduation and head to college, because right now, you seem to act as if you have all the answers in life, and you're seriously in need of higher education, because in reality, you're just a kid from high school. And in high school, you only know the general academics, that's it.
Look who's talking. No of course I don't know a lot, however I know right from wrong, something that seems to escape your grasp on this issue. Either that or you have convinced yourself that embracing homosexuality is somehow accepted by God as a just practice.
Well if you know right from wrong, then what does that make me? Are you then saying you're particular biblical interpretations are righteous over mine, or that you're righteous over me? What exactly are you saying here? Because last time I checked, none is righteous but Jesus. Right?
I am not saying I am righteous, I am saying that I know right from wrong. We are all sinners, but we can't be saved if we go on sinning without asking forgiveness and one can't ask forgiveness if one thinks the sin is ok. And what does that make you? A liar, either on purpose or you have been mislead. Or maybe you are lying to yourself. I don't know, all I know is that you are preaching lies.
continued...regardless of one's innate sexuality, God love is unconditional and is embraced by that unconditional love. Don't confuse innate human sexuality with pedophilia, necrophilia, zoophilia, murder, deciet, sex offenders (straight, gay, or bi), theft, etc., they're two different entities.
No human is righteous and why? Because we are sinful beings born with sinful desires. Sinful desires are innate, true homosexuality is tougher to overcome than most, however it can be suppressed. I don't expect homosexuals to become straight, but I do expect them to work at suppressing those urges just as I work at suppressing mine. If they make mistakes (as we all do me included) Than God will forgive them. What bothers me is they try to justify their sin, not that they are sinning.
Of course homosexuals face the same sexual temptations as heterosexuals do. Just as straight people do in their marriage situations, gay people too have to fight their urges to seek sexual relationships outside of their marriage. And I'm not trying to justify anybody's sin, however my point to you is that homosexuality is NOT a sin as you imply it to be. Research your biblical history, and scriptures carefully and you'll see it isn't so.
Give me one verse that shows a homosexual couple getting married under God's will like all the heterosexual marriages God talks about. You can prove me wrong if you can give me one verse like that.
Regarding heterosexual marriage, those particular verses pertains to heterosexual Christians. Besides, there's nothing in the Bible about wedding rings, wedding veils & gowns, the maid of honor, best man, ring boy, etc., those are all pagan rituals. Somehow, people incorporated that into Christianity.
There are many that pertains to certain kinds of people like women, men, children, heterosexuals, homosexuals (or eunuchs), teachers, pastors, priests, business people, Jews, Gentiles, etc. So as a Gay Christian, the scripture parts that talk about marriage between a man and a woman, is not for Gay Christians, but only for Straight Christians.
continued...Should I cut and paste again for you to see, so that you can see it. I'm not sure that even though what I've posted, you still won't accept historical facts and just call homosexuality a sin anyway. Am I right? I can also explain the scientific view of the innateness of human sexuality, whether gay, straight, or bi. Would you like me to do so? Or are you going to ignore that too, and just call homosexuals wrong anyway?
continued, God made me realize later on that Satan and his dominions work hard to tell Gay Christians or make other subtle implications that God hates them. When in fact God is love. Jesus also stated his commandments to all Christians in John 15:17.
Your missing the point. I never said anything about hating gay people. I stand for prop 8 because I have love for gay people. I pray for them almost every day. How can one truly be a Christian if one is living in a lie. Homosexuality is a sinful earthly desire and trying to justify it is wrong. If you love someone, you don't let them live a lie, especially when their place in heaven is at stake. Those who say God hates gays are no more Christian than the gays themselves.
Okay what is this when you stated "I stand for prop 8 because I have love for gay people. I pray for them almost every day. How can one truly be a Christian if one is living in a lie. Homosexuality is a sinful earthly desire and trying to justify it is wrong" That doesn't make sense to me. What sinful desire are you talking about in regards to Homosexuality if you see nothing wrong with it?
"Children are coming forth gay, austistic, children are coming forth with what humans call maladies, and what we call determination to be secure in their teaching of unconditional love"
Rules against sodomy in Leviticus 18 and 20 are not legislating for ordinary human affairs. Throughout, the authors of Leviticus are chiefly concerned with temple ritual. ritual bestiality, child sacrifice, and the cultic use of menstrual blood in sorcery. The verses against sodomy (Leviticus 18:22; 20:13) forbid temple prostitution: which defiles the land, that concerns Leviticus.
Everybody reads the Bible selectively. If people followed every single biblical ruling to the letter, the world would be full of Christians who love their enemies and refuse to judge other people, which is plainly not the case. Christians would also be obliged to eat kosher meat (Acts 15:20) and stone their disobedient sons to death (Deuteronomy 21:18-21). The world has changed practices that were acceptable 2k years ago have become abhorrent.
Thank you for responding with this, it was interesting. But I do believe Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 still apply to homosexuality. I believe when something is put into God's book it is done so in a way that will retain meaning throughout generations, although it may give different meanings, and is not just there because it was meant to describe past instances. I would venture to ask your take on what I believe is also a reference to homosexuality in Romans 1:26-32?
What do you make of Leviticus 19:19 where it forbids the sowing of more than one seed in the same field, or the wearing of clothes of mixed threads? Without knowing the historical context of this verse, it means nothing to this generation but to describe past instances. And a video about Romans 1:26-27 is coming soon.
St Paul's condemnation of the "unnatural practices" springs from disgust -idolatry, the rootcause of all the disorders in Paul's long list(Romans 1:20-31).The Bible is not a holy encyclopedia,giving clear info;nor is it a legal code that can be applied indiscriminately to our different society. Lifting isolated texts out of their literary & cultural context only distorts its message. We should look @ theunderlying principles of biblical religion,and apply these creatively to our own situation.
Rules against sodomy in Leviticus 18 and 20 are not legislating for ordinary human affairs. Throughout, the authors of Leviticus are chiefly concerned with temple ritual. ritual bestiality, child sacrifice, and the cultic use of menstrual blood in sorcery. The verses against sodomy (Leviticus 18:22; 20:13) forbid temple prostitution: which defiles the land, that concerns Leviticus.
Just a comment on your part about cult practices. We mentioned the temple prostitution in my Old Testament Lit class, and my prof said that the prostitution was done in the presence of idols. The idols were considered to be like voodoo dolls, you control the god by controlling his idol and his prostitutes. Therefore all sex in cult situations was taking away the sovereignty of God in the mind of the people. That is why God condemns both temple prostitution and idolatry-clarify who is in control.
People have to take The Bible with a grain of salt so to speak. It was formulated 2000+ years ago when women were not considered a threat.
But weak men were as they would be seen as making the tribe weak. Letting the team down so to speak.
They didn't really care what women did as long as they continued to have babies.
poodtang1 5 months ago
Like Robert tells me, 'It's amazing how the mistranslating of these three scriptures in the Bible have caused the untold deaths of possibly millions of innocent people.''
Well, we're making some Videos about this, as a friendly documentary without the scary music. Because the blind leaders of the blind is scary enough, knowing that they didn't read the Hebrew Text closely enough...!
jlsperling1 11 months ago
My friend shows on his face book info page, robert john huffine, that the Hebrew Language of the Bible does not ever condemn at all the fact of homosexuality. Instead, it says ''With rememberance, never you shall lay with my concubine of a wife. It is hateful.'' "With rememberance" is interjected into the middle of the twentieth chptr, verse thirteen. And deut. twenty-two verse five doesn't say anything about genders wearing each others' clothes. Gimme a break.
jlsperling1 11 months ago
What about the chapters 1 thru 9 of Leviticus can someone explain to me why anyone would be religious after reading these pagan rituals of slaughtering animals, "sprinkling blood" on the altars, dipping fingers in blood and waving them seven times toward the east the drain blood at base of altar then burning the sacrifice with fire then eating it for the glory of god?
ThePublicIsInsane 11 months ago
We Jews accept homosexuality. Homosexuality and love is no sin. But anal sex is unforgivable. Everything else is allowed. There is no law against homosexual love.
SmartBoy224 1 year ago
@SmartBoy224 so without sex... they are friends..? whats your point?
tvdrummer 7 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
We Jews accept homosexuality. Homosexuality and love is no sin. But anal sex is unforgivable. Everything else is allowed. There is no law against homosexual love.
Lev.18,22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind; it is abomination.
Lev.20,13 And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
SmartBoy224 1 year ago
thank you its helpfull
MsHirut 1 year ago
awesomely thorough, as a fairly observant jew that has delved into all of this biblical study on my own as well i think it's awesome that you've taken the time to look into all the cultural details of the time and the torah's context within Judaism, something that i feel is often neglected when i discuss this with others.
by the way it's the end of rosh hashana over here. so lashana tovah!
Callmedinosaur 1 year ago
I do the same thing sometimes. You can tell when I've written an article, written a skeletal note system, or if I'm improvising. However, everything I say, unless specified, is my own material. I see nothing wrong with refining your linguistic art by exercising it in either text or video form. Don't let this be considered a weakness, or allow it to dishevel you. In fact, I'll post a video response and you may accept it, or you may not. Either way, have a good day/life. :)
themediocrenontheist 1 year ago
So if a kid gets burned alive by the idol molech is that just a cult practice.? So someone can burn a kid alive and that would be okay. If someone did a beast in a religious setting that would be bad in your opinion but it they do it in love that is fine. So only if someone that has intercourse of the opposite sex that is not their spouse that would be sin. However you are implying that there are no sin in same sex or animal sex. Why would God only limit straights on sex and not gays?
RepresentingTruth 1 year ago
@RepresentingTruth Because God was gay? I guess now i burn in hell for saying that.
LiquidT3nsion 1 year ago
Sodomites are dooooooomed!!!
GanEdenAustralia 1 year ago
are you christian
abseconPC 1 year ago
i think that those verses refer more to adultery, as in a man cheats on his wife with another man, which obviously IS an abomination. however, i also think the fact that it says "as you would with a woman" doesn't apply to gay men because they WOULDN'T lie with a woman.
ihatepop77 2 years ago
so are you saying that the book of ezra was only for ezra or 1st kings were soly for the kings? this video is false doctrine
yourboyken 2 years ago
WOW. THAT WAS AWESOME.
brandondallas 2 years ago
The Laws within Leviticus was directed solely to THE LEVITE'S - ergo, the title.
If you check Lev 20:1-5, you'll find Yahweh's competitor, Molech. The (male) Priests of Molech dressed themselves up like females & had sex with the male worshippers who entered the temple.
Lev 20:13 directs THE LEVITE PRIESTS to not behave in that same way!
Lev 18:22 is MISTRANSLATED. It should say: MALE (BEASTS) should not lay with women .. and is continued in verse 23, neither any beast ...
SONofMADman 2 years ago
@SONofMADman So God has two Laws then? Its ok for Levites not to sodomise but everyone else can????
GanEdenAustralia 1 year ago
Thank you for disciphering these verses! I was very curious! It makes a lot of sense. Thank you! :)
meg198321 2 years ago
INNATE human sexuality (hetero, homo, bi) is different to the CHOICE of human deviance (zoophilia, pedophilia, theft, etc) What is written in 1 Cor. 6:9 is about "homosexual offenders" who engage in pedaphilic acts with young boys as temple prostitutes. Trust me there are more written about Heterosexual offenders than Homosexual offenders. Example: I did a personal research on NBC's "TO CATCH A PREDATOR" and found about 90 percent of pedophiliacs are Heterosexuals, and 10 percent are Homosexuals
jusitke07 2 years ago
@jusitke07
Yes! I agree. I think 90 percent of pedo's are heterosexual men after little girls. There are homosexual pedo's as well, but since they are 7 % or whatever of the population, it will be smaller. I'm not sure about the female pedo's. It's all gross I think. I think it's funny people will equate homosexuality to child molestation. I'm thinking "HUH"?
mark40511 1 year ago
He sound's like a girl.
yourkrunal13 2 years ago
yeah...I saw your comments at the other video, and so I brought it over to remind you of it.
jusitke07 3 years ago
think you're right, considering you quite answered my question to you. If you think homosexuality is a sin, and yet you know of it to be innate, why call it a sin and not homosexuality and bisexuality as well? It's like saying being heterosexual is not a sin, actively practicing heterosexuality is a sin...you've pretty much beat around the bush on that one, but I'm trying to come to an understanding so...sorry if you choose not to discusss this further
jusitke07 3 years ago
I never said anything about heterosexuality being a sin! Where did you get that from? Of course practicing heterosexuality is not a sin, God created it that way. Homosexuality originated in sin. So did the desire to have sex before marriage and all other sinful desires, if I didn't make that clear enough already. What denomination are you and what church do you attend BTW?
Lucario1856 3 years ago 2
No, you're not understanding me. I said since you pointed out that homosexality is innate and not a choice, and yet you call it a sin, I quote from your ealier comment "homosexuality is not a sin, but practicing homosexuality is a sin" Why in the world would you flip flop like that? And so it's the same effect as if I were to say that heterosexuality is not a sin, but practicing heterosexuality is a sin...do you see how this doesn't make sense?
jusitke07 3 years ago
continued...why must you know what denomination or church I attend? Can I say that I'm simply a Christian, just as you are? Okay, okay, I'm a Gay Christian, just as you are a Straight Christian, how about that? But if you must know, I attend a non-denominational church. And yes, my church members know that I'm a Gay Christian, but they love me, just as God loves me...unconditionally.
jusitke07 3 years ago
continued...Okay let me ask you again so I can really understand you, because so far you're confusing me tremedously: Do you really think homosexuality, heterosexuality, bisexuality are all innate or all choices?
jusitke07 3 years ago
continued...and do you really take the Bible literally or do you have interpretations of it in the current times? Because in regards to Straight people let me give some verses on what God says about straight people: Deut. 22:13-21, Deut. 22:22, Mark 10:11-12 (this particular verses really goes for those churh members who are or were divorced), Lev. 18:19 (basically if a man has sex with a woman in her period, both should die), Gen. 38:9-10 (gay or straight, it's anybody who masturbates)..explain
jusitke07 3 years ago
Dude, you have the coolest vids ever. I love this. Also you have the beastliest face ever. It's pretty gnar.
MadeUnderground 3 years ago
If you really intend on following Leviticus you're going to have to: stone you unruly kids to death (Lev.20:9), don't allow tattooed folks into church (Lev.19:28), don't allow folks who eat pork into church (Lev. 11:7), don't allow folks who eat shrimp in to church (Lev. 11:7), and many more to follow. Oh and don't forget to kick out Gay Christians out of church as stated in Lev. 18:22. There is a reason why we don't have to worry about these anymore...Jesus died for us.
jusitke07 3 years ago
Yes and that's also why God (through Paul and others) laid out new principles for us. The New Testament not only tells us that homosexuality is wrong, but also defines marriage as between one man and one woman. See Romans and 1 Corinthians. And please don't get so caught in over anaylizing that you forget the basic principles of Christianity. In right vs. wrong situations like this, the Holy Spirit makes it clear to me that homosexuality is wrong.
Lucario1856 3 years ago
Romans1: There are references in the Bible to the "holy ones" who were the temple prostitutes, even in Jerusalem. People engaged in sex in the temple,in exchange for money used to support the priests. Homosexuals,Hetoersexual,Bisexuals men & women in a cesspool of sexual worship. It was common in the ancient world. Paul's followers slipped from their Christian practices and engaged in the Bacchanalia, celebrated in the spring and autumn, and they envolved a lot of drunken sex, like Mardi Gras.
jusitke07 3 years ago
continued...so Paul's letter to the Romans clearly wasn't meant to condemn homosexuals, homosexual acts or homosexuality, he was condemning newly converted Christians who were slipping back into pagan ways through sexual worship (be it mutual masturbation, solo masturbation, gay or straight kissing, multiple heterosexual or homosexual partners), sorry for being so graphic, but it's the reality of the past. Homophobes don't read the entire letter and take a few sentences out of context.
jusitke07 3 years ago
continued, plus, let me give you a snippet of my Gay Christian testimony. I used to think that my life is wrong as a gay person, when I first became attracted to the same sex when I hit puberty at the age of 11 years. I was depressed as a teenager almost to the point of suicide I prayed about it. It was then I went to college that science had revealed to me the innateness of homosexuality. But I was still reluctant, and so I prayed. Then a miracle, a film came FOR THE BIBLE TELLS ME SO. Watch it
jusitke07 3 years ago
There is nothing wrong with being homosexual. Just like there is no problem with having other sinful desires. Has flawed human beings we all have them. The problem is that gay Christians are trying to justify their sinful desires. Do not question the power of God. You can fight it. I know a few people who have persevered and through God, they were able to turn from their own gay desires. God loves people, but hates sin. Too many people get those confused.
Lucario1856 3 years ago
continued...okay, I'm reading the your second comment block, and I'm even more confused.You say one thing, and yet turn it over to be against it. You can't be both at the same time. You can only have only one answer. Now I need to know in general: Do you think homosexuality is a sin? A simple yes or no, and a little explanation after that would be nice.
jusitke07 3 years ago
Homosexuality is a sin. But just because one is gay doesn't mean that you have to embrace that sinful desire. I have heard of some who, through God, were able to resist those urges. They didn't get married of course, but they stayed away from their sinful desires. I would really like to see where I have contradicted myself. As Christians we love thieves and murders, but we don't try to justify what they are doing. Thats what I mean when I say love the people hate the sin.
Lucario1856 3 years ago
I don't think you read any of my historical findings that point to the fact that homosexuality is not a sin, as many has been decieved into thinking it is. Telling someone to resist or stopping their homosexuality would be the same as if someone told a heterosexual to resist or stop their sexuality from ever happening. I don't think you understand that innate human sexuality comes in three forms so far that has been determined as Heterosexuality, Homosexuality, and Bisexuality.
jusitke07 3 years ago
Where in the Bible did God say Homosexuality is ok? He defined marriage multiple times, but no homosexuals were not included in this. Science can't be used to justify this. Some people are born with a chemical imbalance that causes them to become alcoholics. That doesn't mean drinking to excess is ok does it? You don't see Christians trying to justify premarital sex or adultery just because of their earthly desires do you? The Pharisees liked to nit-pick the Bible to you know.
Lucario1856 3 years ago
How about where did the Lord Jesus, Himself, ever say that homosexuals are condemned? Marriage is but a word that means a union between an intimate couple, whether gay or straight. And did you ever read Matt. 19:12, I think you'll find that interesting in that Jesus was talking about innate homosexuality. Go ahead, read and tell me what you think of it.
jusitke07 3 years ago
Paul wrote about both homosexuality and defined marriage quite specifically. Read 1 Corinthians 7:2. "For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it." Is this the verse to which you were referring? How does that talk about homosexuality? Its really saying that not every person needs to get married. Eunuchs have no sexual desires.
Lucario1856 3 years ago
continued...what? Wait, first of all, do you even know the history about Eunuchs?
jusitke07 3 years ago
Yes, they were castrated so they could guard women's quarters (castrated for obvious reasons that we don't need to go into) So please tell me, what does this have to do with homosexuality.
Lucario1856 3 years ago
Eunuchs in most ancient civilizations where specifically selected because of some of the male members that had feminine characteristics, or men who weren't able to marry, were then given by their families or forcefully taken to be placed in royal palaces to watch and care over the hareems of the kings. King Solomon had such hareems and perhaps even had Eunuchs. If you notice in Matt 19, Jesus talks about divorce, and those unable to marry, and goes on to talk about those born as Eunuchs (Gays).
jusitke07 3 years ago
Ok, but it doesn't say anything about these Eunuchs practicing homosexuality. This might serve as an example of people living with those desires, however it by no means says that they gave into those desires. I am signing off now. We will have to continue this discussion at a later time.
God Bless and thanks for your time.
Lucario1856 3 years ago
Oh trust me, I'll be waiting for our discussion tomorrow. You definitely have lots to learn from this point on. That's if you're willing to talk through this. And to as well, God bless you and thank you for your time in this discussion. Cheers.
jusitke07 3 years ago
1 Corinthians 7- Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: 'It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.' But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband." Now if Homosexuality was acceptable, why would Paul leave it out of his definition, especially when there is a chance that Paul was a Eunuch or avoided marriage for some other reason.
Lucario1856 3 years ago
There are many scriptures in the Bible that pertains to particular kinds of people. There are scriptures for women (you should read 1 Cor. 11, 1 &2 Tim 2), there are scriptures for children, scriptures pertaining to singles, scriptures pertaining to men, scriptures pertaining to fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, neighbors etc. And yes, there are scriptures pertaining to Gays, and Straights. Women will read particular scripture about men, but they won't adhere to it, ditto for men, etc.
jusitke07 3 years ago
I find it very interesting that when you said there were verses about gays, you failed to list any. What a coincidence hmmmm?
Lucario1856 3 years ago
Okay did you want verses about gays, read Matt 19:12, let's start off with that, and then we'll go on 2 Samuel 1:23, 26-27
jusitke07 3 years ago
We already talked about Matt 19:12. Eunuchs are those without sex, not homosexuals. I was very shocked that you think those 2 Samuel verse talk about homosexual attraction. 1:23 talks about Saul and Jonathan being close, they were FATHER AND SON! The second verse "Jonathan MY BROTHER; you were very dear to me. Your love for me was wonderful more wonderful than that of women." David was referring to the love that is shared by brothers, not homosexual love.
Lucario1856 3 years ago
Oh you better believe it's homosexual love without a doubt. Of course you're going to say it's not, I'm not surprised at all, but it's there as stated "more wonderful than that of women" You may see anyway you can interperate it. David may have been a Bisexual, but Jonathan was gay as you read the entire Samuel books.
jusitke07 3 years ago
Throughout the ancient nations that included Egypt, Babylon, Assyria and Persia; homosexuals were exalted to such positions as eunuchs that watched the women of the harem. Because of the mistrust of men, heterosexual or bi-sexual men were castrated; but homosexual males didnt need to be. I'm sure King Solomon may have had some eunuchs in his personal hareems.
jusitke07 3 years ago
continued...Eunuchs also had a recognized place in homosexual prostitution, and youths chosen as catamitic favorites were sometimes castrated. Homosexuality was long confused with eunuchry. Like effeminacy and hermaphroditism, eunuchry was sometimes thought of as creating a woman-man. The following verses will show that the Bible defines the trusted ones (or eunuchs) as homosexual males.
jusitke07 3 years ago
Eunuchs are Gay Men, with Listing of Secondary Sources
Section 1: Eunuchs Able to Procreate;Bisexual
Section 2: Eunuchs Lack Lust for Women
Section 3: Eunuchs Sexually Active With Men
Castration a Product of Male Lust and Mistrust ramifications of Eunuchs being Gay Men
jusitke07 3 years ago
I would really like to know where you got these Secondary Sources. I still don't see a verse. Don't tell me what the Bible says, I want a specific passage or passages that tells of homosexuals uniting in holy matrimony as something God approves of. He talks about heterosexual marriage many times, why would he leave out homosexual marriage? If you can't provide a verse, this discussion is over, I have not more to say. People who have convinced themselves of a lie don't accept the truth readily.
Lucario1856 3 years ago
Like I said in my previous comments which you obviously didn't read. Here let me cut and paste for you: "There are many that pertains to certain kinds of people like women, men, children, heterosexuals, homosexuals (or eunuchs), teachers, pastors, priests, business people, Jews, Gentiles, etc. So as a Gay Christian, the scripture parts that talk about marriage between a man and a woman, is not for Gay Christians, but only for Straight Christians." Besides, show me where Jesus condemned gays....
jusitke07 3 years ago
I have already shown you where the Bible condemns gays, but you have chosen to ignore them. Since however you can't provide a verse that shows that homosexual marriage is acceptable, there is nothing more that can be said. By the way check Matt 19:4-6. Jesus upholds that man and women leaving their parents and being joined. Now tell me, if homosexuality was acceptable, why would he leave it out? Surely you think God is smarter than that right?
Lucario1856 3 years ago
And I've already explained those verses you showed me that Biblical history says homosexuality is NOT a sin. And actually Matt 19 talks about divorce (which Jesus detested, gee makes you wonder who in church now a days are or were divorced), and He goes on to talk about those persons indiposed to a heterosexual relationship. It says: If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better NOT to marry."
jusitke07 3 years ago
Also, insisting that every wrong act be condemned by Jesus is foolish. Jesus didn't specifically condemn polygamy or incest, but we know those are wrong. For the same reason too. He defined marriage, plain and simple. A kindergardener could understand that.
Lucario1856 3 years ago
continued...11Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage[c]because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this SHOULD accept it."
jusitke07 3 years ago
So let me get a better understanding of your views of homosexuality. I presume you think that human sexuality is a "choice" and not innate...right?
jusitke07 3 years ago
I am not totally sure, but I'm pretty sure its innate. Whether its innate or not makes not difference. Sinful desires are innate, but we CHOOSE to follow them. CHOOSING to actively purse a homosexual relationship is a sin. I still don't see a verse.
Lucario1856 3 years ago
Sin is a whole other abstract issue that goes beyond the physical realm as a result of Adam & Eve's disobedience to God's first commandment. I think sin is of the spiritual entity that once "saved" then our souls is washed sinless by the Blood of Jesus. But our flesh still remains of this world.
jusitke07 3 years ago
continued...I believe our Lord said in John 3:6-7, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (born again). So, a born-again Christian's soul is sinless by the Blood, but in the physical realm, and again, alcoholic or non-alcoholic, regardless of sexuality or race,the Christian physical body is still affected by sin. So when talking about genetic factors and sin, we're talking apples & oranges.
jusitke07 3 years ago
continued...In other words, from animals, to trees, to fruits & vegetables, to the weather phenomenon, to the human beings, to the oceans, to the entire earth, to the entire galaxy, to the entire universe, ALL IS AFFECTED BY SIN. Yes, our weather has no genetic compound to it, but it's affected by sin, our universe has no genetic compound to as well and yet it is affected by sin as it ages...as stars are being being, there are stars that dies as well.
jusitke07 3 years ago
continued...and I'm quite confuse by your contradictory thoughts. One one hand you think homosexuality is innate, and on the other hand you don't think so as you insist innate homosexuality is a sin. I'm scratching my head in confusion here. Anyway, just because your parents or pastor say homosexuality is wrong doesn't necessarily make it true. Looking back in history the Christian church accused Galileo of heresy for revealing our solar system as heliocentric, not geocentric through science
jusitke07 3 years ago
Confusion? I spelled it out for you! Being homosexual is not a sin, actively practicing homosexuality is a sin. I already explained about Jesus says homosexuality is wrong. He probably didn't say anything because it was obvious to anyone with half a brain. Why do you think he said nothing about incest? Your not going to tell me thats ok just because he didn't specifically say anything on that are you? You can go on all the tangents that you want, but I see no verse yet.
Lucario1856 3 years ago
It still doesn't make sense to me. It's like saying being heterosexual is not a sin, actively practicing heterosexuality is a sin"...I don't quite understand where you're going with this. And please direct me to scriptures where you think Jesus said homosexuality is wrong. And again, you're talking apples & oranges when comparing innate human sexuality to that of pedophilia, zoophilia, necrophilia, incest, lying, hate which are all human criminal deviances.
jusitke07 3 years ago
Please read very slowly I will spell this out for you again. Innate homosexuality means you have the desire to be with the same gender right? Having sinful desires is not a sin, we all have them. Going along with those desires and doing what is wrong is a sin. Thus, being homosexual is not a sin. Going out and declaring "I'm Gay" and trying to have homosexual relationships is a sin.
Lucario1856 3 years ago
Also, you seemed to have overlooked what I said about Jesus saying specific things are wrong. You seem to agree with me that incest is wrong, yet Jesus never said anything about that either. Actually he indirectly showed that both are wrong by agreeing with what is in Genesis" A man will leave his parents and be joined with his wife. You can't leave your parents if your wife was someone in your household. And you can't be united with your WIFE if you spouse is a man.
Lucario1856 3 years ago
continued...Christians constantly used many biblical verses to correct Galileo on his "error". Copernicus did the same as he used science to prove that our solar system is heliocentric. And yet he was afraid of publishing his findings for fear of being arrested for heresy. Even the Protestant Reformer Martin Luther called Copernicus "a fool" For me, I actually believe science glorifies God even more. Now to I ask show me a verse where Jesus, Himself, condemned homosexuals...
jusitke07 3 years ago
"Christians constantly used biblical verses to correct Galileo on his error" How is that relevant in any way? Please stay on topic. We are talking about sin, the the positions of the sun, stars, and earth. The Bible never said the earth was the physical center or the Universe.
Lucario1856 3 years ago
Using Galileo is relevant in every sense that most Christians use Biblical scriptures and not inlcude any scientific research to justify their idealogies and cause hate towards homosexuals. And I can't believe you're actually telling me that, and I quote from your comments: The Bible never said the earth was the physical center or the Universe." Are you that clueless? You're really setting yourself up for failure on this one. Did you want me to show you scriptures or are you going to find it?
jusitke07 3 years ago
continued...you really need to be consistent with your thought process here, because you can't tell me you think homosexuality is biologically innate and then call it a sin. It really doensn't make any sense at all.
jusitke07 3 years ago
We are flawed human beings. Whether something is biologically innate doesn't change whether it is right or wrong. The sex drive is biologically innate, but yet we have to keep our minds and bodies pure until marriage, despite the strong temptations to do otherwise. I would really like to see the verses that say the Earth is the physically center of the Earth.
Lucario1856 3 years ago
No, you're wrong, we are not "flawed human beings" we are wonderfully and perfectly made in the image of God. However we are inherently born with sin as everything in this universe is. And I don't get what you're saying, but Gay Christians just as Straight Christians do try to keep from sinful temptations. Gay Christians do want a committed relationship.
jusitke07 3 years ago
At this point I don't really think this conversation is getting either of us anywhere, you have obviously convinced yourself of what you believe to be true, and thus I might as well talk to a brick wall. And there may have been a time when your comments and caused doubt in the back of my mind, however plenty of Bible reading and, more importantly, praying has solidified me in the position I now take. Jesus is my rock, and with him as my support, I will not be moved.
Lucario1856 3 years ago
I think you're right, considering you quite answered my question to you. If you think homosexuality is a sin, and yet you know of it to be innate, why call it a sin and not homosexuality and bisexuality as well? It's like saying being heterosexual is not a sin, actively practicing heterosexuality is a sin...you've pretty much beat around the bush on that one, but I'm trying to come to an understanding so...sorry if you choose not to discusss this further.
jusitke07 3 years ago
Continued: In David's case, he was closer to Jonathan that he was to any woman. He did not say your love for me was like the love of women only more wonderful, he said your love for me was more wonderful than that of a woman. He is making a great distinction against the common misconception that a man can't love another man without being homosexual. In David's case, he valued his relationship with Jonathan more that he valued his relationship with women.
Lucario1856 3 years ago
continued...and how can you say "Science can't be used to justify this"??? Did you know that science actually glorifies God even more? And you're wrong. People are not born to be alcoholics, that's the choice of the individual to partake in consuming beverages that causes drunkeness. Trust me, I come from a long line of alcoholics from my father side, and none of my siblings including me did not want anything to do with alcoholism considering the embarrassments & shame it brought to my family.
jusitke07 3 years ago
Alcoholism is caused by a chemical imbalance in the body. It makes one far more susceptible to addiction than the average person. Also, the addiction is far stronger than the average person. And so their struggle against it will be far harder, but through God, anything is possible. I too have had alcoholism in the family. Just like I have two gay uncles.
Lucario1856 3 years ago
Uh, you're talking to somebody who knows what the effects of alcohol can do to one's body. I hope you know that the effects of alcohol affects every human being in this planet. There's no gene that makes a person pre-disposed to being an alcoholic. Like I said, I come from a long line of alcoholics, and I and my siblings drink only on occasions, but not to the point of drunkeness. Trust me, we've seen our father, my grandfather go through the embarrassments of drunkery. We hated alcoholism.
jusitke07 3 years ago
Don't act like a know it all. I do enjoy learning about science at school, and I do personal research in my free time. I don't know what causes the chemical imbalance, however it is very likely that it is genetic. Genetic or not, nothing justifies a sinful desire. Do you know how many problems are genetic. I have finals this week and need to go to bed so can you answer my question about the Eunuchs?
Lucario1856 3 years ago
Trust me, before I went to college I had limited knowlege. You should know, you'r only 17, and have lots to learn dear boy. Trust me, you don't half of the story of the Bible and its history. Wait for high school graduation and head to college, because right now, you seem to act as if you have all the answers in life, and you're seriously in need of higher education, because in reality, you're just a kid from high school. And in high school, you only know the general academics, that's it.
jusitke07 3 years ago
Look who's talking. No of course I don't know a lot, however I know right from wrong, something that seems to escape your grasp on this issue. Either that or you have convinced yourself that embracing homosexuality is somehow accepted by God as a just practice.
Lucario1856 3 years ago
Well if you know right from wrong, then what does that make me? Are you then saying you're particular biblical interpretations are righteous over mine, or that you're righteous over me? What exactly are you saying here? Because last time I checked, none is righteous but Jesus. Right?
jusitke07 3 years ago
I am not saying I am righteous, I am saying that I know right from wrong. We are all sinners, but we can't be saved if we go on sinning without asking forgiveness and one can't ask forgiveness if one thinks the sin is ok. And what does that make you? A liar, either on purpose or you have been mislead. Or maybe you are lying to yourself. I don't know, all I know is that you are preaching lies.
Lucario1856 3 years ago
continued...regardless of one's innate sexuality, God love is unconditional and is embraced by that unconditional love. Don't confuse innate human sexuality with pedophilia, necrophilia, zoophilia, murder, deciet, sex offenders (straight, gay, or bi), theft, etc., they're two different entities.
jusitke07 3 years ago
No human is righteous and why? Because we are sinful beings born with sinful desires. Sinful desires are innate, true homosexuality is tougher to overcome than most, however it can be suppressed. I don't expect homosexuals to become straight, but I do expect them to work at suppressing those urges just as I work at suppressing mine. If they make mistakes (as we all do me included) Than God will forgive them. What bothers me is they try to justify their sin, not that they are sinning.
Lucario1856 3 years ago
Of course homosexuals face the same sexual temptations as heterosexuals do. Just as straight people do in their marriage situations, gay people too have to fight their urges to seek sexual relationships outside of their marriage. And I'm not trying to justify anybody's sin, however my point to you is that homosexuality is NOT a sin as you imply it to be. Research your biblical history, and scriptures carefully and you'll see it isn't so.
jusitke07 3 years ago
Give me one verse that shows a homosexual couple getting married under God's will like all the heterosexual marriages God talks about. You can prove me wrong if you can give me one verse like that.
Lucario1856 3 years ago
Regarding heterosexual marriage, those particular verses pertains to heterosexual Christians. Besides, there's nothing in the Bible about wedding rings, wedding veils & gowns, the maid of honor, best man, ring boy, etc., those are all pagan rituals. Somehow, people incorporated that into Christianity.
jusitke07 3 years ago
There are many that pertains to certain kinds of people like women, men, children, heterosexuals, homosexuals (or eunuchs), teachers, pastors, priests, business people, Jews, Gentiles, etc. So as a Gay Christian, the scripture parts that talk about marriage between a man and a woman, is not for Gay Christians, but only for Straight Christians.
jusitke07 3 years ago
continued...and marriage...where do I begin about marriage ceremonies? Tell me, what do you know of marriage ceremonies in relation to the Bible?
jusitke07 3 years ago
continued...Should I cut and paste again for you to see, so that you can see it. I'm not sure that even though what I've posted, you still won't accept historical facts and just call homosexuality a sin anyway. Am I right? I can also explain the scientific view of the innateness of human sexuality, whether gay, straight, or bi. Would you like me to do so? Or are you going to ignore that too, and just call homosexuals wrong anyway?
jusitke07 3 years ago
continued, God made me realize later on that Satan and his dominions work hard to tell Gay Christians or make other subtle implications that God hates them. When in fact God is love. Jesus also stated his commandments to all Christians in John 15:17.
jusitke07 3 years ago
Your missing the point. I never said anything about hating gay people. I stand for prop 8 because I have love for gay people. I pray for them almost every day. How can one truly be a Christian if one is living in a lie. Homosexuality is a sinful earthly desire and trying to justify it is wrong. If you love someone, you don't let them live a lie, especially when their place in heaven is at stake. Those who say God hates gays are no more Christian than the gays themselves.
Lucario1856 3 years ago
Okay what is this when you stated "I stand for prop 8 because I have love for gay people. I pray for them almost every day. How can one truly be a Christian if one is living in a lie. Homosexuality is a sinful earthly desire and trying to justify it is wrong" That doesn't make sense to me. What sinful desire are you talking about in regards to Homosexuality if you see nothing wrong with it?
jusitke07 3 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
In any exegesis itis essential to understand that every verse is a gloss on the golden rule
& any interpretation of scripture that leads to hatred,and distain or contempt of other
people is illegitimate.Scripture teaches nothing but charity and we must not leave an interpretation of
scripture until we have found a compassionate interpretation.
& the struggle to find charity in some of these rebarbative texts is a good rehearsal for life.
that which is hateful to you,do not do to your neighbour.
Johric01 3 years ago
Abraham San Antonio, TX workshop in 2007
"Children are coming forth gay, austistic, children are coming forth with what humans call maladies, and what we call determination to be secure in their teaching of unconditional love"
Johric01 3 years ago
Rabbi Meier, said any interpretation of scripture that led to hatred,
and disdain or comtempt of other people was illegitimate.
The golden rule is: Love thy neighbour as thyself.
Johric01 3 years ago
A pagan came to Rabbi Hillel, one of the greatest of the Pharisees
and said, Rabbi, I will become a Jew if you can recite the entire Torah while
standing on one leg. Hillel stood on one leg and said, That which is hateful to
you, do it not to your neighbor. That is the entire Torah; everything else is
commentary. Now, go and learn it. Theres the rub go and learn it. Go and
live that.
Johric01 3 years ago
Rules against sodomy in Leviticus 18 and 20 are not legislating for ordinary human affairs. Throughout, the authors of Leviticus are chiefly concerned with temple ritual. ritual bestiality, child sacrifice, and the cultic use of menstrual blood in sorcery. The verses against sodomy (Leviticus 18:22; 20:13) forbid temple prostitution: which defiles the land, that concerns Leviticus.
Johric01 3 years ago
Everybody reads the Bible selectively. If people followed every single biblical ruling to the letter, the world would be full of Christians who love their enemies and refuse to judge other people, which is plainly not the case. Christians would also be obliged to eat kosher meat (Acts 15:20) and stone their disobedient sons to death (Deuteronomy 21:18-21). The world has changed practices that were acceptable 2k years ago have become abhorrent.
Johric01 3 years ago
Thank you for responding with this, it was interesting. But I do believe Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 still apply to homosexuality. I believe when something is put into God's book it is done so in a way that will retain meaning throughout generations, although it may give different meanings, and is not just there because it was meant to describe past instances. I would venture to ask your take on what I believe is also a reference to homosexuality in Romans 1:26-32?
LangyLucca 3 years ago
What do you make of Leviticus 19:19 where it forbids the sowing of more than one seed in the same field, or the wearing of clothes of mixed threads? Without knowing the historical context of this verse, it means nothing to this generation but to describe past instances. And a video about Romans 1:26-27 is coming soon.
NoWallsMinistry 3 years ago
St Paul's condemnation of the "unnatural practices" springs from disgust -idolatry, the rootcause of all the disorders in Paul's long list(Romans 1:20-31).The Bible is not a holy encyclopedia,giving clear info;nor is it a legal code that can be applied indiscriminately to our different society. Lifting isolated texts out of their literary & cultural context only distorts its message. We should look @ theunderlying principles of biblical religion,and apply these creatively to our own situation.
Johric01 3 years ago
Rules against sodomy in Leviticus 18 and 20 are not legislating for ordinary human affairs. Throughout, the authors of Leviticus are chiefly concerned with temple ritual. ritual bestiality, child sacrifice, and the cultic use of menstrual blood in sorcery. The verses against sodomy (Leviticus 18:22; 20:13) forbid temple prostitution: which defiles the land, that concerns Leviticus.
Johric01 3 years ago
Just a comment on your part about cult practices. We mentioned the temple prostitution in my Old Testament Lit class, and my prof said that the prostitution was done in the presence of idols. The idols were considered to be like voodoo dolls, you control the god by controlling his idol and his prostitutes. Therefore all sex in cult situations was taking away the sovereignty of God in the mind of the people. That is why God condemns both temple prostitution and idolatry-clarify who is in control.
NaesterBaester 3 years ago