RSA Animate REMIX: The Economic Consequences of Mr Brown

[chrisz]

The exact same thing has happened in the US that has happened in Britain.

[SLRist]

I find it quite amusing how people - (especially in the US) - have been brainwashed into thinking that any action which leads to a decrease in inequality is automatically 'Socialist' or 'Communist'. I speak as someone to the right of the political spectrum who is very much in favour of meritocracy. However, meritocracy - which I believe Thatcher encouraged - has been in the last few years largely dead or dying, and we are moving towards a plutocracy.

[PtAltmVansanTarr]

Interesting how the educated classes' explanation for what has gone wrong now in America and a bit before with New Labor in GB sounds very similar. I'm not saying that all his arguments are wrong,but it's an interesting point-even down to the Constitution being under attack- I thought there really wasnt a British Constitution?

[TheClaygirl1]

this is a new artist, i dont like it

[organdva]

Don't want to sound like dogmatic anarchist but...

When so many cities have installed direct democratic plenums on their main squares we still hear academics and intellectuals preaching about good government. Academics, if you want real change in politics and economy then be prepared to sacrifice you privilege.

Federal planned economy from bottom up, recallable delegates on imperative mandate chosen direct democratically. That should be theoretical horizon for any serious left radical.

[killahkazi]

Im not even from the UK but this animated stuff is great

[lacewinglml]

I like the idea of public vouchers. Though I know in the USA we need to stop lobbyists and the negative campaigning. I think if the money was put into the hands of the people that would likely take care of both.

[honestnetworker]

Does anyone know who the artist or company is that does the artwork?

[theRSAorg]

@honestnetworker the animation is done by Cognitive Media. Their details are displayed at the end of the video. 

[CasaleRA]

One issue with the political funding suggestion that may be very difficult to address is the need for privacy and disclosure in such a process.  I'd want a requirement of disclosure of funding for registered political organizations that receive funds in such a public manner. But there would also need to be a protection of privacy for the donors, or coercion and fear of reprisal for ones political views could affect how one directed their allocation.

[xdopiex]

i miss the omnipotent hand drawing everything..

[MarkoKraguljac]

Idea with transparency, vouchers and donations ban is an interesting one.

[euand1]

No matter what kind of government we have it will always be corrupt, for examples in Russia everyone is equal and own the same amount of money... I suppose that excludes the wealthy ones who own football clubs and extravagent yaughts? Democracy has its flaws but its the least corrupt system we have at this day and age. As long as there are people there will be evil, greed and hate...

[MrBMJ]

Thought provoking and eye opening

[hols2000]

Well, history shows the democracy is a corrupt system, therefore what you should be suggesting is a republic. Replacing the rule of majority with the rule of the law. Let's just make sure the law isn't stupid ;))

[Ecapsora]

@hols2000 The USA is a republic and they aren't doing any better.

The purpose of government is to make laws that aren't stupid by representing the best interest of the most people possible. The difficulty is that private money skews government perspective and changes the law to suit their purpose. Rule of majority isn't perfect but I wouldn't want to live in a police state where you don't have any say in the way things are run. We just need to make government more responsible as well.

[hols2000]

@Ecapsora

The USA used to be a republic, not everyone had the right to vote. Now everyone has this right that's why you have the tyranny of the majority - that's what democracy is about. Under such conditions people tend to make stupid laws like giving the privileges to a group that shouts the loudest while suppressing the other groups (example: Obamacare). Law isn't perfect, that's true, but the aim of it is to protect the government from regulating too much, aka making stupid laws.

[DeeSwizzle]

Our learned prof's solution takes the power from the power mechanism and puts it in the hands of the people - precisely what the power mechanism wants not!

And know that our system in the US is equally incapable.

[whitec59]

RSAnimates are the the best way to listen to the lectures. please make more of them!!

[ihnlChiv]

todays RSA video was brought to you by the coalition governement.

[babel35]

Very interesting, that question : what do we get out of any governement, and of any institution, and how could we change the result ? !

[dogmagernav]

im a graphic designer with a conscious mind, love this videos! LOVE THEM!

[deeXaeed]

it's 'negligible', not 'negligable'

[rinoaangel08]

I like the old way better, seeing the artist draw...

[CurtHowland]

His answer is "throw more money at it"? This is a supposed "economist"?

What an idiot.

[WhichDoctor1]

@CurtHowland I dont know what you just watched, but it was obviously not the same video as me.

[CurtHowland]

@WhichDoctor1 Just as he's finished talking about how the increased funding did not change the "results", he states that education needs more funding, and that not enough spending was made early enough in healthcare.

[Ecapsora]

@CurtHowland Actually he said was education didn't get enough money to be really successful, child poverty didn't get enough money and what they got was used the wrong way, and healthcare got TOO much money too quickly to use it to improve in lasting ways. IT wasn't just "throw money at it" it was use the money wisely, where it was needed, when it is needed and spent the right way to be effective in the long run.

[CurtHowland]

@Ecapsora Something you should look up is the very short book "Bureaucracy" which demonstrates why govt agencies cannot, ever, spend money "wisely".

I would also suggest "Economic Calculation in the Socialist Commonwealth" by the same author, Ludwig von Mises, for why saying this or that quantity of money is a complete waste of time when discussing govt agencies.

[Ecapsora]

@CurtHowland From what I see today, I agree.

It's difficult to get social programs to work with public money. Those who need these programs can't afford to pay for them, so the govt funds them, but people (those who can already afford them) don't want to pay for it with taxes, so the govt lowers how much money they spend, so social programs don't get the funding they need to work properly, and the govt has to spend more to fix it. Vicious circle

[CurtHowland]

@Ecapsora May I present a different direction of thought?

In a Republic, in order for a govt program to exist it has to have overwhelming support.

Yet, if there is such overwhelming support for such a thing, the people who believe in it are more than capable of paying for it themselves, without the "gun to the head" that is taxation.

Those who need a program, by definition in my opinion, can't afford it themselves. But basic "needs" are quite inexpensive and people who care help out voluntarily.

[ginemginem]

@CurtHowland Yup, you definitely must have watched the wrong video.

[ayoopdog]

you're a fool if you think Cameron is your saviour. Here's an FYI: Governments don't rule the world. Goldman Sachs does. They don't care for the economy, they just want profit.

[WoWDart]

The hand drawing everything makes these better imo. Otherwise it feels like I'm watching a powerpoint slideshow where everything appears with the same wipe.

[TheCognitiveMedia]

@WoWDart We agree. This is a 'faked' version of what we normally do. We took the still photographs from the original artwork from 2009 and comped in a hand. We usually draw live and record what we draw. Unfortunately we didn't put the hand in all the way through because of time constraints as we are also busy finishing the new Animate, which will be launching soon. Our main reason for making this remix was to help with clarity of the information. We filmed the original on a Flip camera.

[Shalliw]

I always enjoy watching these videos! It feels like my brain is just jumping for joy at hearing such insightful lectures. I just can't get enough.

[anthonyww713]

The idea of equality is flawed. No two individuals well be "equal". You cant have equality without limiting choice. It is natural for people to want more. So when you limit choices you open oppertunitys for "criminals" to supply a demand for a good or life style. Govt cant solve these problems of equality by limiting access but on the other hand by allowing people to have free choice and allow people the oppertunity to change there lives themselves. Govt is the problem not the solution

[pgunn01]

@anthonyww713 It's ok to have some limits of choice for more equality. Instead of trying to get complete choice or complete equality, let's get something between.

[pgunn01]

@anthonyww713 It's ok to have some limits of choice for more equality. Instead of trying to get complete choice or complete equality, let's get something between.

[DrBandrew]

@anthonyww713 well it all depends on how you look at it. getting rid of choice isn't always bad. for example to increase social equality would be to ELIMINATE the choice buisnesses have to pay workers bad wages, another example of increasing economical/ecological equality is to not give buisnesses a choice whether or not to destroy the environment (blowing up mountains, fracking etc). so in a sense we would be limiting choice,but do you really want exploitation to be a viable choice in society?

[anthonyww713]

@DrBandrew People exploit choice weather it is legal to do so or not. Example This is the war on drugs. drugs are illegal yet the choice to do them keeps drugs ever present. My biggest problem with "social" equality is people are not equal not two people ever will be. Business and conservation efforts can and should be held at local levels. Trying to make everyone happy usually makes no one happy. Just let people be unless they are causing harm to people. A little curtiousy goes a long way

[DrBandrew]

@anthonyww713 drug prohibition and regulation of buisness to do horrible things are completely different with different cause and effects... so the war on drugs isn't analogous to keeping a buisness from paying a worker slave wages. social justicees overall goal isn't to make neccesarily everyone on the same par but to increase equality from the status quo which is really possible, and with already ideas out there to do it (i listed 2 last post).

[DrBandrew]

@anthonyww713 also you assume social justice means making everyone happy, and i would say that's not social justices primary goal...it is however to make as many people as happy as they can,but socialists,social democrats, communists etc. already know that they are working in a system of human flaw.complete perfection isn't the goal, as close to perfection as possible is the goal.

[anthonyww713]

@DrBandrew dont The idea of free education, HC ,food, heat and air ect. You are asking welfare bums to stop selling drugs or go out and get a job for there money when a govt is saying no stay home here is a check. LOL no matter what puppet you put in charge as long as you attempt to take away hand outs he will be voted out and the next politician will return the freebies to get elected. Like i originally said no two people are equal. Just let people be and they will do for themselves.

[DrBandrew]

@anthonyww713 ur economic evaluation of the working class is very broad and doesn't account for the many people who've had a steady job but lost it do to the reccesion or outscorcing. also social justice isn't just welfare it's raising of wages,the raising of benefits for workers, and healthcare. you seem like you dont know anything on this issue and you take the social darwinist position of old plutocrats like rockefeller, and carnegie..

[DrBandrew]

@anthonyww713 also ending the war on drugs is highly supported by social justice advocated do to it harming the poor and workers the most so your points against social justice is barely even consistent with the ideas of social justice advocates.

[anthonyww713]

@DrBandrew No matter which way you spin the situation a person has to want to choose to improve there life. In a free country there can be no equality. As for working class people in general. When in history has the laborer not been poorly paid. After all it dosent take a rocket scientist to do what they do. They can save money and go back to school at night or join the army get out 2-3yrs have money to start a business ect. oppertunitys are there but you have to choose to take them.

[DrBandrew]

@anthonyww713 soo do you just hate the concept of equality. I mean i'm not really spinning anything your arguments are social darwinistic. the laborer always has been porrly paid (sometimes not paid) i'm arguing that they shouldn't and i guess your arguing for the conditions of the industrial revolution in where workers toiled for very very little pay (wage slavery).

[DrBandrew]

@anthonyww713 i mean your giving no reason to believe that your economic preference is more realistic and offers more freedom. your whole argument that equality restricts freedom goes against most philosophical/sociological assumptions of both. if one part of society has all the power then they can take advantage and restrict the freedom of the weaker more disenfranchised members of society and ths is even more true in capitalistic divides in where you have 1% contrl mor wealth then the other99%

[DrBandrew]

@anthonyww713 also lets not pretend that most people can do what the vegetables, and fruit pickers do in America. we shouldn't base pay off of how smart you'd need to be to do the job (this would benefit the rich who have prepaid ivy league college educations) but on how hard you work and i can safely say the mddle/poorer classes work hard and they are key to a functioning economy (any economist would agree)

[DrBandrew]

@anthonyww713 also on your comment about just saving money and the poor joinig the military. 1st i don't think you know anything about the topic at hand whether it be sociology,economics,and moral philosophy. 2nd i guess u never heard of wage slavery and that it happens to poor people. pretty much they get paid so little that they only have enough to eat,drink,pay for housing. ot everyone has the luxury of just saving a $100 mnth due to that 100 mnth might be better spent on food,or electricity.

[DrBandrew]

response to your "just join the military comment". you are not a sane person if you look at society and you openly know that the only way for poor people not to be poor is to participate in the military ind. complex in where they might die. and your not taken aback by the society. you have openly admitted that one of two ways of getting an education is to give yourself up to a gov. system in where you have to actively risk your life and sometimes kill people.

[DrBandrew]

I dont know about you but i dont want to live in that societal paradigm. in where poor children fight all the wars just to end up middle class well the rich child has his ivy league edcation already paid for through inheritances, and is most likely gonna end up CEO or executive of a corp and did this rich child work as hard as the poor child no not at all. I'm not saying take the rich down a peg i'm saying moe the poor and middle class up a peg.

[anthonyww713]

@DrBandrew Your comments only further the truth that i originally stated. No two people are equal. I applaud your efforts to convince me. Money is just a symbol of exchange. In all reality it does not exist. The only reason money exist is because we create it. Salt gold silver cows sheep ect many things have been money. In the end welfare people make decent money with little to no effort and top end jobs have little to no effort with big pay. You just need to shift your POV and money will flow

[anthonyww713]

@DrBandrew Singer song writers actors tv anchors accountants ect The list goes on with jobs that have great pay for little effort. Welfare people do well not working. The problem is that you believe hard work = success. Big companys want you to think that so you work hard for them. Hard work can pay off but it isnt needed to succeed. Your obviously broke. Change your POV and your $ issues will evaporate. Then you will understand why hard work dosent mean squat in the money/success world

[DrBandrew]

@anthonyww713 WTF? oh i'm sorry i just contacted the single mother of two children she can't become an actor or a tv anchor because you know someone has to watch the children. I mean what world do you live in where the working class can just drop there social/family responsibilities and become rich singers,actors,and tv anchors? also what world d you live in in where u think if you practice hard enough your going to become the next tom cruise,Beyonce, and anderson cooper?

[DrBandrew]

@anthonyww713 I would argue it takes alot of effort to be any one of those things. im srry to tell you but in the current capitalistic structure positive thinking doesn't work. Also you have y argument all wrong. i'm not saying that hard work=success i'm saying hard workshould=sucess. I'm also advocating for stronger social programs so poor people can follow there dreams (whatever they may be) if they choose to and they don't have to be bonded by wage slavery.

[DrBandrew]

@anthonyww713 I don't see how you can be confused about my argument considering i've been pretty consistent with me admonishing the lavishness of the rich and giant corp. and how it's tilted towards the income brackets. i've also been consistent with me saying we need to help the workers and by doing that we need to create social programs that lift people out of poverty

[DrBandrew]

@anthonyww713 I would also like to add that i'm a realist, and if a student racks up thousands of dollars in student loan debts thinking sunshine and rainbows doesn't help erase there debt so "changing your pov" isn't a solution to the prob. at hand. a solution i my opinion would be to make college free for all, and or just subsidize poor student's education. these are the real world solutions not positive thinking.

[DrBandrew]

@anthonyww713 I suggest you watch RSAnimateSmile or Die

[Ecapsora]

@anthonyww713 most of them can't because multi-national businesses are allowed to pay employees less than required for basic necessities. If you work two jobs to make ends meet you can't do night school. You can't join the army if you're unfit because you can't afford meat and vegetables, so you and your children eat the cheaper fast food. Starting a business is no guarantee of success but is guaranteed debt and you won't have health insurance either. That is a free country over social equality.

[DrBandrew]

@anthonyww713 furthermore it is lazy 2say that people are unequal just because they are. we must dwelve deeper why some people succeed, and othrs fail, and most answers seem 2bethat if you r poor then you will be less likely to succeed and if your rich your more likely2suceed so actually your whole claim that "everyone is't equal" is only true because capitalistic class divisions, and the racking up of wealth is hppening and always has been happening.

[anthonyww713]

@DrBandrew Thats the beauty of free will. What you choose will never be what i choose unless we have no other choice. The whiner and complainer will never aspire to great things unless they are carried. People choose to succeed people also choose to procrastinate. In a free world there can be no two people equal because you are the sum of your choices. You can choose to live at home and save money or you choose to go in debt ect. if people need to take responsibility and stop asking for welfare

[DrBandrew]

@anthonyww713 well let me first say that many sociologists, and psychologists are rethinking the whole position of freewill and that yes individual actions do matter but so do societal actions. for example if you are born in the projects you are less likely to become rich then someone who grew up in a mansion, so your whole position on freewill ignores alot of sociology,economics, and psychology.

[DrBandrew]

@anthonyww713 also you wholke position of freewill ignores the fact that the hardest workers in society belong to the poor and middle class. agarian work for example is one of the hardest jobs in todays society. it's backbreaking labor where in alot of cases you don't work per hour but per pick (which always is tilted in favor of the employer), and you have to work in extreme conditions. most of these people are the poor that you just assume is lazy.

[anthonyww713]

@DrBandrew In the end social change cant occur from the govt. The war on drugs is a clear example of how govt cant create change. If you think legalizing drugs will "harm" people you are mistaken. Drugs are here and in demand making them legal will allow safer products into peoples hands. My position on free will is get the govt out of peoples lives and they will take care of themselves. Giving a hand out each month isnt helping. It is all about choice.

[DrBandrew]

@anthonyww713 your arguments seem 2 parralell that of the socialdarwinists that belonged to the early 20th century american aristrocrats like Rockefeller,carnegie, and JP Morgan. the whole "poor people are poor because they are lazy,stupid,non evolved etc" is really tiring of an argument to make and ignores modern psychology/sociology. this also again ignores the fact that the working class r the backbone of economic productivity.

[anthonyww713]

@DrBandrew America is a class nation. 1/2 the fortune 500 are high school drop outs. People in this country go from starting out broke to getting rich and vise versa. That is my whole argument. There can be no mass equality. Every empire that became great didnt become great by ignoing diversity but from learning from it. Thus equality cannot exist and progression made in any style of govt. After all if you have no free choices you cannot choose better.

[DrBandrew]

@anthonyww713 Also what buisnesses do can harm people. the offshoring of jobs to countries that use child labor not only HARMS the person that lost the job, but the child that is being forced to toil for slave wages. Alsothe blowing up of a mountain (coal) harms the ecosystem thus harming the people that live in the ecosystem. paying bad wages leads to poverty ipso facto harming people. social justice is meant to halt the choices privateeers have that directly harms the majority (workers).

[anthonyww713]

@DrBandrew you are way over thinking this. Slave wages exist get over it. The fortune 500 is full of high school dropouts who rejected education and are winning at life. Paying bad wages dosent lead to poverty. Poverty is a result of mismanaged money. Not to long ago kids didnt move out at 17-19 and didnt come back familys lived together and people saved money to start there own life. The govt giving out easy money creating inflation and bubbles cause people to want to buy homes they cant afford

[Ecapsora]

@anthonyww713 OK so you're obvisouly right wing/libertarian and you hate the idea of welfare, lets get past that.

I'm curious as to what your socio-economic status is. Generally people with your point of view either are self-made or have never needed to support themselves by working on the bottom tiers (the poor, lower class, working student, graduates with student debt cause you can't work and study and break even theses days,) and I get the feeling you haven't wanted for money in your life.

[Ecapsora]

The poor don't mismanage their money, it's done for them. Think about it poor families can't send their children to college. Without a college education it is near impossible to get a high paying job (Self made dropouts are rare in reality) Minimum wage jobs no longer match the cost of living (food, rent, heat, gas etc.) They get credit to fill the gap, and credit card agencies love the working poor because it's LITERALLY impossible to get out of debt when you're living paycheck to paycheck

[bluefootedpig]

These changes need to happen in the US as well. We have massive centrallized government, and congress has lost a lot of its power. And what is worse is local governments.

Really, what we just need is a scalable democracy. A republic in a community of 1000 means my vote is worth 1/1000. If that population doubles, my vote is worth 1/2000... i lose voting power as population increases. We need a way to maintain voting power, even if that means it is more local.

[1x93cm]

well what got us out of the last depression was killing ourselves and building more weaponry- once the war was over consumerism was invented to deal with excess productive capacity. So- are we up for round 2 ehrm...round 3? No nukes or scalar weapons of course, thost are far too destructive and leave little benefit for rebuilding.

still- why do people think we can "grow" our way out of this. There aren't infinite resources on the earth which is a finite closed system.

[TheYasoway]

workers are the nerve of life

[tantamounted]

You didn't read. I do. I'm not making any arguments that welfare is the problem, unlike my father (who wishes to believe that lazy liberals are the problem). YouTube comments don't have space to fully address these issues in a single note.

[provitaminjets]

i love RSA!

[danesesse]

Yer, I don't believe this an entirely good evedience based throught process. The idea that somthing with things going for it can't do anything admitting bad decisions is kind of a be all end all. I agree in more local goverment but the rest of this was kind of a political rant.

[danesesse]

@LordSparkisvati What?? You realise that we do have a rather concrete but unwritten constition and with a two party system. They can never really take away proper free speech. Nazi germany was completely different. New democracy, small party system. I dont get you, you point is both infactually and a dum remark. Added with a tough for you phasing which makes it seem that britain votes for constitions. Which by an by is the opposite of a constition.

[JBehnen]

I'm really fond of the voucher-idea. I'd like to see that in a "first world" country...

[bennocelt]

sorry a load of bull here and lies by stats

[bodyprojectfoundatio]

Yes I'm with you Agemoz - and actually these films are awful - very hard to watch and the technique wears off in seconds - I cant watch them sorry - maybe a 30s version but ten minutes of this!!!

[CognosSquare]

@bodyprojectfoundatio or take your ADD meds. In 30 seconds they would not even get to explain the conclusion and you would not see the underlying logic.

[ApronChef]

Was it purposely done to have the Inequality symbol of the scales slanting to the right, to highlight the fact that the right wing is more about privatisation, while the left is public scheme's etc etc. If so, nice little easter egg ;)

[ReX342]

He says activism was present, but then claims it was too centralized. He says you should ban all donations (and I don't see why it would need to be an organized donation -that's the only thing not on the list-, but organized labor -eg. Unions- shouldn't be part of the associations donating), but make them public. If you take even more power away from the executive branch (restoring the legislative -democratic- branch), you'll hear "no government can get done what it set out to do" even more!

[omatu1]

even though it's a remix, it was fun and thoughtful.

[viciousandchaotic]

this depression isn't some sort of inexplicable social phenomena that we should just sit back and accept. this depression is directly caused by Corporatocracy. our governments need an overhaul, they are not working for the people, they have become simply another tool for rich corporations to get richer.

[DJJames92]

I'm only subscribed for this... so i want new ones

[goegelwoegel]

@chocomalk Why ? What is the alternative ?

[pulsatingremedy]

@goegelwoegel

The abolishing of both value and employment.

[dd08880bb]

I love these videos, they are more fun to watch than just ppl speaking :)

[HarrisonSmith1]

the constitution isnt there to be changed lol.

[tantamounted]

@HarrisonSmith1 All constitutions are subject to the people who are in power, even despite the law they purportedly create.

[pulsatingremedy]

@HarrisonSmith1

Why not? Almost all countries have their origins in times when child labor was considered normal. The constitutions reflected that. Why is changing the constitution to change that policy wrong?

I fear you are relying on 'OH SAVE THE REPUBLIC' dogma.

[HarrisonSmith1]

ok i dont agree with slavery

[pulsatingremedy]

@HarrisonSmith1

That doesn't really matter though, whether an individual agrees or disagrees. A change in policy can only be made reality if there is an economic force to support it. For instance: the labor movement against child labor, the slaves against their own exploitation, the bourgeois revolution against feudalism.

For instance: I am apathetic towards putting old Nazi's on trial. It only makes it appear that the problem is solved. But the industrialist support for fascist policy remains.

[HarrisonSmith1]

@pulsatingremedy what is the 'save the republic' dogma and why is it bad?

[Agemoz]

Can you post something new please? REMIX... doesn't count.

[ukchill1]

@Agemoz yer i only liked cause this was an animate, get your shit together RSA!

[theRSAorg]

@Agemoz Keep your eyes peeled - countdown to a new one is starting soon!

[Ravengaurd6]

ok this was actually good.

[encomiastic]

Competent government yet they made the wrong decisions. Isn't that paradoxical?

[Ravengaurd6]

@encomiastic yes. he said so at the beginning,love.

[tantamounted]

@encomiastic My father insists that the way out of this depression is to get people off welfare. I believe that the only way off welfare for most people is to get us out of this depression and bring some opportunity back to the workers. And I don't believe that more corporate subsidies are the right way to do it.

History points to the things that ended the last great economic depression... and notes that the arguments I'm hearing from my father are the same ones that failed then.

[madmankind]

@tantamounted

as one wise man sad: politicians have no knowledge or skills to make living better.

scientist, engineers, sociologists, e.t.c. have that knowledge.

only thing politicians care is their popularity among the crowd, to sit longer in their warm places. so they create short term patches here and there, instead of fixing the very reason of problem.

(sorry for my bad English)

[xchainlinkx]

@tantamounted Welfare is the problem? Really?! Not the billions spent on wars? Not the income gap between the 1% and the 99%? The fact that every job is being automated and laying off workers? Not the fact that this very system we live in is DESIGNED TO COLLAPSE?!

No it's the fucking welfare, lets just get rid of that.

For fucks sake...Learn to think for yourself, don't let your daddy do your thinking for you.

[1x93cm]

@tantamounted well what got us out of the last depression was killing ourselves and building more weaponry- once the war was over consumerism was invented to deal with excess productive capacity. So- are we up for round 2 ehrm...round 3? No nukes or scalar weapons of course, thost are far too destructive and leave little benefit for rebuilding.

still- why do people think we can "grow" our way out of this. There aren't infinite resources on the earth which is a finite closed system.

[tantamounted]

@1x93cm I suspect evolving multicellular organisms discovered this as well, and were eventually forced to limit their growth as a protective reaction to overuse of local resources. Asteroid mining will probably create the next great human leap in productive capacity, as we have enough of those to make a whole new planet. Too bad humanity has been turning away from inspiring group dreams for a generation and focused on being individually wealthy; otherwise we'd probably have started on it.

[1x93cm]

@tantamounted the thing is - in order to make that leap requires a certain amount of resources of precious rare earth materials- when those are exhausted or misused then what? we'll be stranded on island earth as degredation of the biosphere and limits to growth impose genetic collapse on the human species

but it's all good-

since we can put those rare earths into high tech weaponry and android smart phones to amuse us in the meantime

[Alpinex105]

@tantamounted Government programs did increase economic activity, but history tells us that war actually did more for the economy. History should be looked at critically.

[xijnnijx]

@tantamounted It sounds very reasonable, He has a good idea.

[tantamounted]

@xijnnijx It only sounds reasonable until you look at the actual problem: Economically, you're looking at stagnant pools with very little "water" (sucked off to feed other things with no regard to life in those pools). How do you get living pools? Add just enough water and stir it so it aerates; economic actors that previously couldn't swim or breathe will reveal themselves, and the increased life will draw new water in. Without that, all you get are parasites and eventually desert.

[xijnnijx]

@tantamounted Thank you for the insight. :)

[M8E8L]

@tantamounted It took nothing less than the labors demands of a Second World War to end the Great Depression...

[MrIzzyDizzy]

@tantamounted the problems with the economies of the devloped countries are all the same - they are in debt due to borrowing money from private money creators, when they should be the creators of it. which would eliminate national debts. there is a global abundance of very cheap labor that cant be competed with and have a decent living wage by developed countrys standards. and most of all is the replacement of people in the service industrys(last bastion of job creation) with automation

[waltermh111]

@tantamounted One way I like to think of it, coming from TYT, is this:

Unemployment raises from say 5-10%

Did 5% of the workforce just suddenly become bums? And will they be happy owning a house, a decent car, eating a certain way, vacation etc... then still be happy living on minimum income where they cant have or do much like they used to?

Did 5% really stop caring because they had to take assistance due to a layoff?

Its bullcrap, nor did all of that 5% want to be unemployed. Some, possibly.

[AleXGT7]

@tantamounted

He's half right.

People shouldn't have been encouraged under new labour (and previously under conservatives to lower unemployment among destroyed industry towns) in this manner.

It's not where we're at now, it's what's happened for the past decade and longer. Nearly all new jobs created went to immigrants and surely our position would have been better if those positions were fulfilled by unemployed.

I know too well how shit unemployment is, I'm not being hateful here.

[TooOverrated]

@encomiastic He did mention that the trend was paradoxical. It does make sense in a way. The government has all the right recipes and had a cook book. However the cookbook wasn't the best and therefore they didn't get the best results... I hope that made sense.

[encomiastic]

@TooOverrated

I just view that as being incompetent. Having good intentions is fine, but not being able to produce them is incompetence.

I don't know that much about British government, but I've always separated intentions and actions.

[CoNfuseRyep]

Koan Sound MR BROWN