Toyota Recall - Event Data Recorder EDR how it will prove "human error"

[pielover8888]

ZOMG FLOATING HEAD NOOOO!!!

[bddc201]

Event data recorders are designed almost exclusively for the purpose of evading manufacturer liability. They will NOT tell you if your foot was on the brake, only if the switch signaled to the recorder that it was being activated. Manufacturers love these things because they appear to be concrete evidence, almost like DNA to a jury. EDR's are only one component in a multi-faceted system, and just as fallible as any man-made device.

[carquestions]

@bddc201 The point is that MSM needs to do some credible checking and provide full disclosure not just wip up hysteria like they did. If they had talked about EDR's in the first story about SUA they would have reduced the amount of complaints instead of adding to them

[hubie2100]

u no u can add or take data for a car black box

[carquestions]

@hubie2100 Practically speaking you can't. The equipment and software needed to do what you are suggesting is simply not available needed to most mechanics or investigators.

[jon1444208]

Depending on how the signals from the accelerator and brake pedal units are generated, transmitted, and received by the ECU, the EDR will only confirm what signals the controller was responding to. It's a little like a lawyer asking a whitness, "What color was the light when it turned green?"

I agree that probably most, if not all, of the problems involved human error; however the use of the EDR to accurately reflect the physical events surrounding a problem needs to be carefully examined.

[emforty2]

how about the other car computer ?

the human brain computer thats prone to lock up and fail

yes the drivers brain is a computer and its prone to failure and forget neutral will put a car to stop or the brake pedal instead of the acc pedal STOPS THE CAR

[carquestions]

@emforty2 You couldn't be more right - after 2000 investigations since February - everyone has been driver error - NHTSA confirmed

[WILLTHEWGMAN]

Where is the evidence they can't get the hands on these cars? They have been asked and have flown engineers with this reading device to read this info in regard to crashes per request by local & federal investigators. Where is this data? Are you stating here that local & federal investigators are blocking Toyota from access to this vehicles, if so, why would they and why would Toyota not complain about such lack of access but instead pay a record $16.4-million fine for hiding safety defects?

[carquestions]

@WILLTHEWGMAN The Sikes Prius, the NY Nanny Prius and dozens of others have been investigated and had their EDR's downloaded by NHTSA and Toyota and in every case the data shows driver error. And this has been stated in official press releases. Check the Toyota channel. NHTSA has the actual data - just do an FOI if you want it

[WILLTHEWGMAN]

@carquestions

I have not seen this printed report on theses cars, can you send me a link to the printed report itself?

[carquestions]

@WILLTHEWGMAN NHTSA hasn't released the reports - there are only press releases on their findings, that's why I suggested FOI to you. The investigation results from Sikes car and the NY nanny were reported by Reuters, The Wall street Journal etc. Check the web

[WILLTHEWGMAN]

@carquestions

I agree that the Nanny and Sikes cases did not sound right from the start, not sure how a veteran cop with his family in the car managed to call 911 before trying to free a stuck petal from a floor mat and let his family die from something so simple and it is beyond logic for Toyota not to release the very raw data from these cases; claiming proprietary obligations over reputation just does not pass the smell test...

[carquestions]

@WILLTHEWGMAN His brother inlaw in the back seat made the call - read the link I sent you there is 29 pages to it. Read the about the witness Frank Bernard, he borrowed the car 3 days before and he had a problem - a stuck gas pedal - he managed to stop the car and report it to the dealer - unfortunately the dealer didn't remove the mat

[WILLTHEWGMAN]

@carquestions

What about the Cali Cop crash in which all died. What data did they get from this one?

[carquestions]

@WILLTHEWGMAN There is a full report from DOT and another from the SD Sherrifs Department on this crash and they list the cause as the floor mat - I'll dig up my links and send them to you - its is very interesting reading - the short DOT one is a video I've posted.

[WILLTHEWGMAN]

Oh, I am no longer waiting for Toyota to clear their name with this data, it is clear that we still do not know this info and data but Toyota does; this means that in fact it showed it was Not human error. If you think otherwise, what is the logic for Toyota to hide evidence that would prove there was no defect in their product???

[carquestions]

@WILLTHEWGMAN Their not hiding the results - they made public press releases about their findings - NHTSA was with them at each investigation so there is no suggestion of hiding anything. In NY the police actually video taped them during the investigation - they are being watched very closely

[acs4llc]

I few years ago, Toyota's quality was far superior to anyone (brand). So cutting back quality was a smart move, financially speaking (quality is expensive and slows down the assembly process), but they cut back too far, obviously. Bit them in the ass.

So we'll laugh about the "Runaway Toyotas" like we did about the "Pinto Fire Traps" and in the end we will forgive Toyota as we forgave Ford. They give us something to drive And something to laugh at.

[acs4llc]

Once this whole mess blows over, and it will because all Toyotas will eventually have a 'brake override' so that they can't runaway... It'll take centurys to fully win back the hearts and minds of the population, once people find out that Toyota could have 'fixed' this prob around y2k. Meaning they knew their cars had a prob but decided profits were more important (thru internal memos etc.)

[carquestions]

@acs4llc The Brake override fix is a good idea and will reduce but not stop it completely because of the foot slipping off the brake onto the gas.

Toyota can always follow the script Ford used with their ignition switch fires, leaky head gaskets and Firestone tires scandals if they need to. Worked for Ford, should work for Toyota

[acs4llc]

So how centain is Toyota about "human error" being a factor?

[carquestions]

@acs4llc I'd say 100% - GM has used their CDR info very successfully in court and so has Ford - . But there is nothing to stop a jury seeing the data then hear the defense say the computer has a fault that isn't recording the information correctly and use the same false story/theory again - "the computer has a problem that is hard to find, replicate, duplicate etc. etc." - it's no win for them either way

[acs4llc]

I'd say Toyota is terrified (obviously)of what info those "black boxes" could reveal. All it could take is one 'smoking gun' (proof of a Toyota/Lexus racing while applying the brakes) topple the Toyota dynasty.

[carquestions]

@acs4llc And you'd be wrong - they have already used the black box info in court. Keep dreaming instead of building better cars and Toyota will be around forever

[acs4llc]

Then why is Toyota avoiding bring forth the "black box" info in some or most court cases? Do the math. If it's a case like Jim Sikes', sure, they'll bring the info.

[carquestions]

@acs4llc Ask any lawyer - each case is different - Toyota has no legal right to inspect your car without your permission no matter how much they'd like to. You really need to look into US automotive history if your in the business - none of this - claims of accidents, deaths, the rigged cars and fakers - none of this is new, it all happened before 24 years ago. If the damned CBS would let people have copies of the Nov 23, 1986 episode "Out of Control" people would fall out of their chairs

[acs4llc]

You keep insinuating that Toyota wants the "black box" info intruduced into court, when in general, they don't.

[carquestions]

@acs4llc Where you getting your info - Mad magazine ? lets us see your "source" for your latest claim - TV again? - you're an adult - do your homework

[acs4llc]

Consumer Reports- Oct 28, 2009: "Ninety-nine percent of cars and trucks built by Ford now have average or better than average reliability, nearly equal footing with Toyota and Honda. Runaways not withstanding. (need more sources? Let me know)

Since you're living in the past up there in the Great White... how did you forget the Pinto? How could you?

[carquestions]

One good year doesn't make a champion - where was Ford in consumers reports for 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007?

Was this your source for your black box claim I asked for? If it was I missed it.

[acs4llc]

'The Daily News Los Angeles' article ref 'The Associated Press' investigation.

[carquestions]

Thank you -" Has frequently refused to provide key information sought by crash victims and survivors." - you can't conclude from this they don't ever provide or even often provide EDR data. Just a reporter coloring their work - its the same as saying Microsoft has frequently refused to provide third party information to someone

[acs4llc]

Right. In which cases did Toyota refuse to provide the EDR data? The one that they thought they would win? Or the other ones. Yeah you don't know (nor do I). But which ones do you think. Think!

[acs4llc]

True. In those years you mentioned, Ford had a worse quality rating (since you live in the past). But more importantly, Toyota had better quality back then. Seems like their qualitys been slipping. And it has. Again, I'm not putting the runaways into the equation.

[acs4llc]

It's not about being 'scared' half my family members (that drive) own and operate drivebywire Toyotas and you don't see me prying the keys from their hands. I personally will never own a Toyota from now on because of the way they handled this mess. It didn't have to be a mess. Just a simple change early on would have avoided it. Would have added near zero to the cost of those cars. At least the Pinto's fix was like 50bucks US.

[carquestions]

@acs4llc I didn't mention the Pinto due to a lack of space. You asked if I was scared - now you say it's not about being scared. Pick one. Simple change? what would that be? If you're not buying a car because a company has treated an issue badly then you've got a very small list. I've had complaints about every car and company except Geely - but that will come in time soon as they get here from China - check out the latest complaints on my ford Escape issue -

[acs4llc]

For me, it never was about being scared. And it isn't. I drove a Tundra yesterday. But mostly I don't decide what car to buy by what happened last Century.

[carquestions]

@acs4llc That's just the point isn't it? - "what happened" - is not known just yet but you have already concluded that a mountain of complaints must hold some truth for you. In most other issues I'd say you're right - how can that many people believe something that isn't true? - I'm sorry to report that history has recorded this many times - it is very possible every single one is wrong. How many people believed the Bush stories about weapons of mass destruction - 200 million? How many now?

[acs4llc]

Yes, but forget about history, this time technology holds the answer. Toyota just has to set it free. And if the 911 call from (CHP) Officer Saylor's car doen't raise some 'flags' with you, then I give up. You win.

[acs4llc]

You're starting to sound more like a Toyota defence lawyer than human.

[palevictory]

>@acs4llc I didn't mention the Pinto

I'll mention it. The Pinto was was/is much maligned. More people have burned to death in Crown Victorias and Mustangs than Pintos.

Total deaths caused by FIRE ( not impact trauma) in Pintos according to the NHTSA is 27. 5 times as many have died by fire in Crown Vics/Merc Marquis, 3 times as many in Mustangs. The Pinto was "Car Of The Year". People love to take shots at icons, and the Pinto got shots, and unjustifiably so.

[carquestions]

@palevictory Lets not re-write history here boys - The Pinto, Crown Vics and Mustangs all deserve their reputations - but - they don't hold the crown for suspected fatalities in fires - Jeep does - XJ, TJ, Liberty rear mount gas tanks - see center for auto safety

[palevictory]

>@carquestions Lets not re-write history here boys

Not trying to. I'm just mentioning that bandwagoning sometimes gets carried away.

The Pinto was maligned to the point that it was branded as a fire trap ( demonstrably untrue) and is an example of how a marque can suffer from media hype.

However: In Toyota's case, the hype is deserved. Toyota let its ambition over-ride its common sense in their push for that #1 spot. Now they're doing damage control, using the same rhetoric...

[acs4llc]

@palevictory

Toyota knows ppl have a short memory and just has to push through this (PR wise) while installing brake overrides on selected 'drivebywires' before the are forced to make their Event Data Recorders readable by the gen public in 2012.

[dsmtsi]

Why 2012? Why not now?

[carquestions]

@dsmtsi Because the US government body NHTSA has made it a rule/law -

[acs4llc]

If Toyotas are so great, why don't you put your family in one, or two. Scared? I don't blame you. Nor would I. And yes, Toyota will obviously survive, they make a car that's at least as good as Ford. Runaways not withstanding. Check the latest consumer surveys, but go back before the runaways hit the news.

[carquestions]

@acs4llc Scared? - I guess fairies scare the crap out of you too eh? No, up here we don't get scared because some crazy old ladies run their cats over.

Doesn't matter what cars I drive - I got used to fixing them a long time ago so my family would be safe - I suggest you do the same

[dsmtsi]

Also, toyota appairently is the only ones that have the tools to read the date on the "black box".

People involved in run away toyota accidents have asked for this information and toyota would not release it to them.

This also makes toyota look like they have something to hide.

[carquestions]

@dsmtsi Agreed - it doesn't make them look good - on the other hand to make such evidence public could start people saying their data is fake and start more conspiracy theories

[acs4llc]

Toyota has routinely refused to provide key information (in SUA cases) sought by crash victims and or survivors... And when pressed to provide "black box" recorder information, Toyota has either settled with the plaintiffs or provided printouts with key columns blank!? According to an Accociated Press investigation.

[dsmtsi]

I think it is just the opposite. By withholding the black box information, even from people that have been in accidents that have requested it, it makes them look really bad, like there is something on there that shows this is a computer error and all drive by wire Toyotas are affected by it.

this makes them look guilty.

[palevictory]

Toyota has had credibility issues before. They have repeatedly demonstrated willingness to use "fine print" contracts to get their way, down to and including putting competition out of business so they can get ALL the business, as well as operating on the philosophy of "ram you, damn you" if you're another car maker. Toyota's agenda was to become the largest car maker in the world and they were stopping at nothing to become that. Expect them to continue their smoke and mirrors tricks...

[dsmtsi]

I am seeing that now... And to think I almost bought a toyota.

[dsmtsi]

So why doesn't Toyota go ahead and make public the data? By not making that information public it certainly makes Toyota look guilty and they are hiding something.

You see to be very Pro Toyota, you believe everything the toyota engineers say as if they are not there to protect their pay check. You claim there can be nothing wrong with toyotas "drive by wire" system just because they tell you this?  Computers and electronics get glitches all the time.

[dcnhvhb]

you shouldn't blame people for this. how come this whole ordeal doesnt happen to people other vehicles? guys like you are giving toyota a bad reputation.

[carquestions]

@dcnhvhb It does and has happened to other vehicles - open your eyes phone a police station - ask when the last time an old lady drove up someone lawn and find out for yourself the car was not a Toyota. I've investigated SUA the last one was a Ford Explorer - do your homework and read the Sussman and Pollard report this crap has happened before in 1986 - death etc - it was the people and poor pedal design. Stop getting your news from CNN - you're Canadian!

[dcnhvhb]

toyota is going to get there asses sued for the next ten years by every body who was in an acident minor or large. computers can be manipulate. so toyota is screwed. If you family died because of this would you be defending toyota. or would you want an answer .

[carquestions]

@dcnhvhb Fisrt - everyone will have their own EDR reader by 2012 - next every one of them will lose - it happened to all the folks in the Audi story 24 years ago - they all lost.

[smoothntallGWM]

Why hasn't Toyota released any EDR data from any SUA crashes yet ? For just a few thousand dollars they could buy their freedom (if only the data looked good) Could it be that the data WOULD NOT look good for Toyota ? I submit that Toyota has had ample opportunities to be forthcoming to the public with supportive engineering documentation, and they don't appear to be doing that. I blame the lawyers at Toyota for withholding information.

[carquestions]

@smoothntallGWM You'll never see it - lawyers for plaintiffs seize the car and Toyota will only get to look at it after a lawsuit is filed and a date for examination for discovery is set - this can take years and these lawsuits only popped up in the past few months - If you think they have had complete access to everyone of these cars you would be mistaken - this is not something CNN will tell you but they would like you to believe Toyota can have the car anytime they want.

[smoothntallGWM]

I don't buy that answer.

This is a billion dollar issue; therefore, Toyota would reach out to many of these family's to buy the car for a reasonable pre-lawsuit settlement (read a few million dollars) to acquire the car to enable them to announce to the world it was operator error (given only if substantiated by the EDR data). Believe me the Lawyers at Toyota aren't just sitting around waiting for the paper work as you suggest.

[carquestions]

@smoothntallGWM Thats a laugh - I can see CNN now - Toyota pays victim for their story. Why not wait around - they will win in court anyway - if they could do it now it will be doing the one thing they will never do - blame the customer

[smoothntallGWM]

As it stands right now the public believes at least 50% of these troubles are electronic in nature (the remainder being operator error). I leave it to Toyota to prove otherwise.

[carquestions]

It's part of the air bag computer - I don't know if these computers have the capability in your country or its just in North America

[thmsjstr]

Do you work for Toyota? Why do they, Toyota, use propiety software. Why is there currently only one computer in the U.S.A. that can read it? And they do get thier hands on the cars and have a history of deniying access to this information. Why is that? Where are you get your information?

[carquestions]

No I don"t work for Toyota - I work as an automotive instructor in the Province of Ontario. Therefore I work for the taxpayer. There is only one computer since your US government agency NHTSA allowed all car companies to develop their own system - they will by law have to make it publicly available in 2012 - you can find the same information by going to NHTSA and searching for hours.

[dankeschone]

So don't buy a car where you can't read your own data. Problem solved.

[carquestions]

Care to supply this list for everyone?

[lolsmileyface]

Carquestions- How has your take changed in light of recent news of inter-corporate memos at Toyota acknowledging they have a problem and strategizing to NOT handle it by recalls due to bad PR, loss of business and reputation, and mostly THE HUGE COST OF DOING SO?

Point #2 - The "Black Box" data is only retrievable by Toyota. How is that fair? They can doctor the data or present false data in any court case. You won't see Toyota using this in court because THE COMPLAINANT WILL ALSO HAVE ACCESS

[lolsmileyface]

@lolsmileyface Also Food For Thought Dept. - If law enforcement, NHTSA nor the plaintiffs have zero abilitiy to decode the aforementioned EDR or "black box" in a Toyota product, there is no way for both sides to equally have access to the data - Thus making it not presentable in court.

[carquestions]

see answer below - and yes a court can order Toyota to download the information.

[carquestions]

Not in the least. Where were you when Ford was in front of Congress claiming they didn't hide documents in the Ford Firestone recall?

Point 2. No plaintiff's lawyer worth his/her salt would allow an unsupervised inspection. Point 3. all you have to do is wait until 2012 and buy your own downloading scan tool to see what your car says. Point 4 - crash data from Ford and GM cases is famous for sinking SUA cases brought against them, Point 5 - most people who bring SUA lawsuits lose anyway.

[PTIES]

Do a Google search on... nhtsa esv21 09-0375

Reviews Toyota's ability to download ECUs

[carquestions]

Just read it - interesting stuff. It seems the current complaints would all disappear if some of the EDRs from them were checked. The problem continues until somebody can get a hold of ONE of these cars. I've posted a kind of reward of $50 to anyone that can supply video of a stuck pedal - no takers so far and I don't think if I offered $1000 it would make any difference

[ggariepy]

Hi, Mark

Good point on the data collection that's going on.

I don't know if it works the same in Canada as it does here in the US, but the legal discovery process here should allow a plaintiff to get the data from the recorder, regardless of whose equipment has to be used. If the evidence supports their claim, they could go ahead with the suit. If not, they could drop the suit.

[carquestions]

@ggariepy Its the same here - I just worry that lawyers will be in a rush to sign you up and it will be quite some time later that the lawyer arranges for Toyota to download the data since they alone have this equipment.

[terhhh87]

What about insurance companys. Do they have the same exuipment to retrive the data?

[carquestions]

If it is a GM, Ford or Chryco there are readers available to them but not for the vast majority of the foreign companies including Toyota - No police force or insurance company has the equipment to do it.