fuck all debates! it's time for action! you can't claim the ownership of a land based on a book that says the earth is flat and it doesn't move! fuck israel! 1947 borders for palestine!
it's impractical for modern civilized people to co-exist with primitive savages..Europe will be swimming with money if they kicked the Muslims out..and here in America,if it weren't for Muslims,there would be no war on terror.Muslims are more trouble than they're worth.even their cloths haven't evolved from the camel train era.
We should stop Muslim immigration to the west,period ..
@hayden50 i don't consider, colonization, annexation, expropriation, rape, robbery,genocide, infanticide and homicide. Civilized behavior and a sign of evolutionary progress.
It's the kind of behavior displayed by savages. just because your clothes are modern doesn't mean you have evolved beyond the savage behavior of your primitive ancestors. The only difference is europeans used to bathe once a year now you bathe once a month.
@hayden50 I work in the Birmingham magistrates court. I maintain their computer systems. Swearing at me isn't a sign of intelligence.
Your job is to refute my argument not to assume you know anything about who i am or what i do for a living. I thought you were in England but i have just checked your profile and you are in america.
That explains why you are so ignorant and a border-line sociopath
@mauritiusbleu ahahaa..Don't be hurt..I only told you to get a job because it said on your youtube page ,that you were looking for employment..Anyway, you didn't present any argument to refute, just a pathetic bitchy rant So what was your argument ? BTW, what are you ? A muzzie?a nigger ?
@hayden50 i guess you thought that was going to sound funny but that's another failure. it took you eight hours to reply and that's all you could say. you are just another dumb american and nobody likes you
@hayden50 I know what type of person you are. Dummies like you play C.O.D or spend their empty days trying to understand things beyond their comprehension.
i read a few of the comments you posted on another video and it's clear to all who read them that you are an idiot. Get your facts straight before trying to debate with someone or you end up sounding foolish.
Get it straight failed abortion, no one takes your opinion into account,except maybe your fast food manager. And even then, only the proper temperature for the fryolator. I in the other hand get paid for mine
Now be good or I'll stick you back in Your Hole again..
@mauritiusbleu Look failed abortion, your mom is a whore,and she lives under the bridge. Too bad you failed abortion that your mommy did not stick that coat hanger up her nasty snatch a little harder and for a little longer.... Just think, one more good poke and scramble and you would not be wasting air... Oh the shame.
@hayden50 Your childish behavior is a sign of poor parenting. i'm above insulting your mother but i will insult your wife. but we all know you don't have a wife. how does it feel to be ugly and repulsive to the opposite sex ?
you are just another poor, broke and lonely little man child. 24 years old and you talk like a troubled teenager who has a terrible case of acne.
Now go back to "playing" with yourself because nobody is interested in what you have to say
@mauritiusbleu I have guilty pleasures tormenting douche bags like yourself,Listen up Virgin, once some girl pays you the time of day, or more likely, once you pay some girl some cash, and you actually touch a real woman's breast, you'll give up all of this nonsense.
A consistent lack of pussy is your problem Virgin.
@hayden50 is that all you have ? instead of creating your own insults you simply rephrase what i say to you
you can never torment me because i see you as an insignificant pile of horse feces. you have never experienced "pussy" so please stop acting like you have a wife.
WOW, you have such weird fantasies..Listen failed abortion,you're nothing but a griefer.Really, you're not worth the toilet paper I wipe my ass with. Nothing you have to say has any value whatsoever
Please, keep telling me how much more pathetic you are.
You are My Dog, I am Your Master.Now be good or I'll stick you back in Your Hole again
@mauritiusbleu what are you babbling about now Virgin,? I'm not sure what womb of puss and scum and pig shit you fell out of,but how do your fast food manager feel about you taking so much time away from the fry machine to post on YouTube?
You continue to display your small mindedness Virgin. But as long as you don't mind getting pwned, you can keep coming back for more abuse....
@hayden50 sorry fool but abusive comments are not a sign of intelligence. we have already established that you have no wife.You are a 24 year old man child with no friends and you lack basic social skills
the only one displaying a limited vocabulary and the inability to post sensible comments is you. so i guess you are pwning yourself. If you had better parenting we wouldn't be having this meaningless conversation.
@hayden50 Ranting like a child is not a sign of superior intelligence or cognitive functions.
I think you are just a delusional little loser and every time you post a comment it tells us all. What can happen to your children if you neglects your duties as a responsible parent.
your parents left you in front of the TV for long periods of time. Resulting in you growing up to become a mentally challenged buffoon.
"This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades."
-Azzam Pasha, Secretary General of the Arab League, 1948
Multiculturalism is a cult of ignorance.under separation of church & state,we've let Islam to mushroom in the west,& look at the mess we're in.don't these liberal idiots understand that Islam isn't liberal & there can never be separation of mosque & state ?
Sorry, Noor, but Britain and America didn't arm Israel -- it was Czechoslavakia, not exactly a great military power. Israel is NOT illegally occupying territory; if they are, then explain how come Egypt and Jordan weren't illegally occupying them pre-1967? Why didn't the Palestinians form a state when they had 100% of the territory and there were NO SETTLEMENTS at all ? Arabs and Palestinians in Israel enjoy greater freedom and a better standard of living than in most Arab countries.
@desiman1 get out of here you flaming racist. Posting propaganda like the zionist scrolls, as you clearly have not read, is made by the Russian Tzar's secret police. Mixing this extreme racism is fueling Israels Holocaust abuse. So if you want things to get better for Palestinians then stop the spew of propaganda and focus on the facts.
We have the evidence against Israel. It is very very clear and no confusion about it, except from the extremists that dont legitimate f.ex the World Court.
@zl1vette427 of course there was no nation there before. The British had a colony of the area and before that the Turkish dictatorship, Ottoman Empire.
But you say here; The indignious population of any area, do not have any rights to their land that they lived on before the invasion. It fits the world pretty well, as indians in the US, lapp's in Scandinavia and indignious people all over the world.
You present the institute of a "nation" to be a requirement for right on land is unpresidented
Sorry, but there was no country or cohesive nation in Palestine pre-1948. If there was, then how did a bunch of poorly-armed Jews outnumbered 2:1 drive them out, and beat 5 Arab nations at the same time ? Survival of the fittest...Manifest Destiny...whatever you call it, Israel has built a thriving and flourishing society. They export alot of good stuff....only thing Hamas and the PLO export is suicide bombers.
@zl1vette427 So if an atomic bomb was dropped over Israel and killed everyone in the country, that would be ok for you because that would demonstrate that they are not the "fittest"
Also I guess you are against any kind of economical compensation for the Holocaust victims and their siblings, against UK/USA intervention in the IIWW, against judicial power and subsidies for the Katrina victims... Or rather you have a concept of "fittest" that has remained unexplained
@zl1vette427 This is a load of rubbish. Palestine did have a people, only it wasn't recognised as an independent state as it was under British mandate. What you are saying is historically inaccurate and a lie. And the Jews weren't 'poorly armed'; far from it. They had support from Britain and America.
@zl1vette427 your last comment shows pure ignorance. Not that I condone it at all, the suicide bombings are done as a response to the dehuminisation which the Palestinian's have suffered under Israeli rule, particularly in the occupied territories. If someone comes and demolishes your house, you're not allowed to fight back? Under international law the oppressed can fight against the oppressor, and Israel has illegally occupied territories and oppressed the Palestinians since even before 67.
@thegreatnoor - Your last comment shows pure ignorance.
You pay lip service by saying "Not that I condones it at all" and then rationalize it. Just be honest, you don't need to disguise your indifference about murdering of Jews. Secondly, you can't hide from the chicken and egg question, which the answer on it is clear. Demolishing houses came as a response to the terror activity and fundamental undermining of our right as Jews to live in our homeland. Deal with arguments, do not bypass it.
@0kcomputer are you really mimicking my arguments like a little 7 year old? I'm not "rationalising" it, I'm explaining it. Funny how you seem to be mixing the facts up here. The attacks are done as a RESPONSE to what the Palestinian's have been subjucated to. And I'm not hiding from the "chicken and egg" question; you do realise that the Palestinians have semite roots; their ancestors were Jews who converted to either Christianity or Islam
@0kcomputer in the days of the Roman Empire and then when Islam came. I have no problem with Jews living in Palestine; don't put words in my mouth. What I disagree with is the way in which the state of Israel was brought about, the systematic genocide against the Palestinians etc etc. Did YOU know that after the Jews were forbidden to live in Jerusalem by the Romans it was an Arab Muslim ruler, Salah ad-Din, who, in 1187, specifically invited the Jews to live in the Holy City?
@thegreatnoor- You seem to be an honest person so I'll answer respectfully.
You have a methodical error in the way you approach the Palestinian- Israeli conflict.
1. The conflict is not a territorial one. The conflict is ideological with religious roots and it all comes down to 2 things. 1- Palestinian method of thinking that there is no Jewish nation. 2- That Jews do not have the right for a homeland in Great Palestine.
@0kcomputer I am fully aware of UN Resolution 181. I am also aware that, when the UN Partition was proposed in 1947, it gave 60% of the land to the Jews and the rest to the Arabs, whilst at the time the Jewish population in the region was 7-10%. So you can see why the Arabs would reject such a partition. The Palestians do not think that there is no Jewish nation, because clearly there is one.
@0kcomputer The whole argument on whether Israel has a "right" to exist I find a flawed one. Israel does exist, and the Palestinian's are well aware of it. However, the reason why they oppose that authority of the state is because they were 'disposessed and exiled' if they became refugees and 'humiliated and abused' if they stayed. (I'm quoting Jeremy Bowen here).
@thegreatnoor - People tend to pimp in big words like apartheid, racism, genocide and so on. You fell to the same trap, innocently or deliberately.
What happened in the independence war, in terms of massacres, happened in both ends, who more and who less.unfortunately, It happened in every war, before and after.
Read in "1948" of Benny Morris. Now, let's be accurate and debate about the population in Great Palestine before 1948.
@0kcomputer I assure you I fell into no 'trap'. The word 'apartheid' includes "policies and practies of racial segregation and discrimination... shall apply to the following inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group ofpersons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them" [Resolution 3068 of UN General assembly]
@0kcomputer I can name you many examples of exactly why I think Israeli Apartheid exists; of course, that would be very time-consuming and even then I wouldn't be able to list you all of them, but if you want me to give you proof, I shall.
I agree with you on one thing, that massacres happenned on both ends; however, the scale of these massacres was undeniably greater towards the Arabs, most of which (though still wrong) as retaliation.
@thegreatnoor - There is no apartheid, no genocide and no segregation. The Israeli- Palestinian conflict cannot be compared to South Africa, unless "you" are a pure wicked bastard.
This is ignorance mixed with pure evil.
How come this is an apartheid where they are not willing to be citizens in my country and where the reason for them being under siege is because of security reason. Have you ever read Hamas convent? Why is the west bank not under siege if we want to activate apartheid?
@0kcomputer You just said that you couldn't agree more with my last statement and then you call me a pure wicked bastard. Really? So what, you're denying it is going to wipe away all of the facts just like that? Maybe the reason why they don't want to be citizens of Israel is because of how your state has treated them. And as I have already said, the "security reason" or so you call it is only in place because the Palestinians are retaliating- fighting back.
For some books I'd recommend, try "Peace not Apartheid" by Jimmy Carter, "The Iron Wall" by Avi Shlaim, "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" by Ilan Pappe- to name a few.
I'm at least glad that we've been able to debate in a civil manner; that's something that's rare to find in these internet debates, most of which consist mainly of people constantly insulting one another. In this way I can at least respect your views, even if I don't agree with them.
@thegreatnoor - I couldn't agree more with your last paragraph and i am happy to see that you put your money where your mouth is.
I can tell who you are by the books you read. I have read pappe. He is the Auto-anti-Semite of this time, together with Chomsky. I can imagine what your reaction would be to my comment but I can assure you I don't easily label someone as an Anti-Semite. This Scholars world is painted with 2 colors, blck and white, in such a complicated issue.
@0kcomputer I find it funny how you can even think to label someone as Pappe as a self-hating Jew. Just because their opinions don't correspond to those of Israeli diplomats doesn't mean that he's any less of a person- in fact, I think that Pappe and the likes of him (e.g. Norman Finkelstein) are brave in that they are going against sterotypes.
@thegreatnoor- 181 resolution of the UN, which determined the partition of the territory into two states, one Jewish and one Arab, was denied by the Arab world. A day after, 5 Jewish people were murdered what started our Independence war what you call the 1948 war or Nakba. Please don't pimp in words like Genocide as it was your whore. Genocide is what Muslim people do to their own people along the Muslim countries in the world.
Btw, Muslims can be good hosts only when they are the hosts.
@0kcomputer the Nakba doesn't relate to the war, it more specifically relates to the exodus/exilation of 650,000-750,000 Palestinians. When I use the word "genocide" I know perfectly well what I am talking about and I use it very literally; such are the cases in the well-known Deir Yassin massacre and many others committed by the Hagana.
@0kcomputer You make these allegations presuming that I agree with them- In actual fact, I am very much aware that a number of Arab states are corrupt- but we are not talking about them now. And it's funny how you say "Muslim" countries, as though the term is specific to only those. Historically it is the Christians who have committed the most genocide, in events such as the Holocaust or in Ireland more recently.
@0kcomputer that doesn't nullify my claim. I'll give you another example- In Spain the 3 main religions lived together harmoniously until 1492 when King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella expelled the Jews and Muslims. The Jews fled to the Arab countries, where they were treated fairly. Just because Muslims were the "hosts" of those countries as such does not make it any less of a gesture- if anything it makes even a bigger one. Look how Israel treats its Arab citizens today so see which is fairer.
@thegreatnoor-first of all, here some facts.it wasn't 7%-10%. In 1948 there were 650,000 Jews (Vs 1.3 Million Arabs) in Palestine (37%). You are wrong that this territory "belonged" to someone at that time. Looking at the history, this area was occupied, conquered throughout the last 1300 years by the Arabs, Malmuks, Ottomans and the British. Who inhabited it at all this time?
You keep ignoring the fact that Zionism created de facto the Palestinian nation. No signs of Palestinians ambitions b4.
@0kcomputer I don't know where you get your facts from, but some of them don't seem to be straight. Benny Morris is well known for using only Israeli sources; so of course his sources will contain bias. And it was 7-10% in 1947- the time of the UN partition plan, which is when I referred to. The number had increased to around 30% in 1948, when Britain withdrew from the mandate and Israel was born.
@0kcomputer The areas of Palestine, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria used to all be one country before the British and the French split it up in the Ottoman empire, but that does not mean that just because Palestine was created as part of a partition by the British that the area did not have inhabitants whose ancestors were in the region for over a 1000 years- it did, and those people should have a right of being in Palestine/Israel.
@thegreatnoor- I expect you to fully condemn the anti-Semitism and Jihadist actions against Israel in Gaza and the west bank, not just pay lip service to it. They can teach the children there, that Israel was born in a sin, but they cannot teach them, that there was no holocaust, that we are the children of monkeys and pigs and that all Jews should be thrown to the sea.
Israeli Arabs are like a Trojan horse inside Israel.This is so sad cuz the majority wanted to live with them in co-existence.
@0kcomputer Of course I condemn anti-semitism and suicide bombings and what not- but I also condemn the demolition of homes of the Palestinians, their exodus in 1948, their treatment in the occupied terrirories and within Israel itself, to name a few.
@thegreatnoor- Benni Morris was the HOLLY BIBLE of the world until he wrote his last book and then, "they" started to condemn him and blacken his face. The way I see it, that's a pure hypocrisy.
1- The Arab population was sparse before 1882 in "PALESTINE" that factually was divided to sub districts- subordinate to Beirut or Syria.
2- There was not state and there was no "nation" in the territories under the British Mandate. That was the real background of the Balfour Declaration.
@0kcomputer Benny Morris was never the 'holy bible' to me. His views, unfortunately, did drastically change and I see that as a result of the pressure he's been subjugated to by fellow Israelis. But like I said, he is not a reliable source and I have already explained why.
@thegreatnoor -I live in Jerusalem my friend. In west Jerusalem (-:.
Which part of UK are you from?
I refer you to the 1948 book in the bibliography section. You tell me if he use only Israeli sources. Which one the others use? Do they use Israeli sources?
@0kcomputer As for other historians which I like to credit, Jeremy Bowen always has a healthy balance for sources from all sides. I don't know of your opinion of Avi Shlaim, but I am sure we can both agree that he is at least a credible source. I know you do not approve of Ilan Pappe, but his facts are impeccable, whether we like it or not. The thing about Morris is that he might very well be a good historian and I would never know it, simply because he is known to be one-sided.
@thegreatnoor Pappe's fact's may be correct but it is the decontextualiztion of these facts that are the problem. Pappe acts as if Jews arrived, said "Vini, vidi, vici" and that was that. To ignore the backdrop of war and the Palestinian Arabs own contributions to the conflict is disingenuous. Pappe also admits that he doesn't consider himself a historian but someone who is trying to advance an agenda. Read his quotes about "historiographer" to see this.
@0kcomputer just want to correct myself: I said occupied West Jerusalem; I meant East Jerusalem. "Even the Palestinians living in the occupied [West ] Jerusalem cannot visit it"
@0kcomputer If the Arab population was so 'sparse', as you like to put it, then how come 750,000 Palestinians had to flee their homes? Surely if it were 'sparse', then there would be no need for the Palestinians to have fled and been exiled? Your arguments do not make sense.
@thegreatnoor - Well, between 1882 to 1948 there are 66 years, right?
Because of Zionism there was a huge amount of Arab immigration into Palestine and that is why you had 1.3 million in 1948.
I will suggest you not to judge my posts before fully trying to research them.
If you want to get into details we can do it all day. I can give you facts from here to zoolooland. But in the end of the day, you will have to make up your mind, how you see this conflict being solved. That is the key.
@0kcomputer In actual fact it was the increasing popularity of Zionism which caused the population of the Jewish people to immigrate into the region; hence why only a year before Israel was created the population of Jews in Palestine was 7-10% but in 48 it was 30%. Areas within Palestine were continually inhabited in for thousands of years by the Arabs, I have already given you examples of Saladin, etc.
@0kcomputer There was no "mass migration" of them in 48; if anything, the British mandate would have inhibited this as the Balfour Declaration was already set into stone years before Britain siezed control over the region after the defeat of the Ottomon Empire- which, by the way, was only done with the help of the Arabs.
@0kcomputer I have already made up my mind: I believe in the one state solution, that Jews and Arabs can coexist peacefully and live under a democratic reign by the majority, be that Jewish or Arab- I do not mind. But I am sure you are for the 2 state solution- obviously. However, I see that accepting the two state solution is accepting that there are irrevocable problems underlying, which means that discrimination will never be resolved.
@thegreatnoor- This is the way I see things. Jews, unfortunately the most victimized nation in the history, is fed up being ruled by others. That is the essence of Zionism. We want a homeland for Jews, with no inner enemies, to preserve our unique cloture and our safety for many years to come. One state solution cannot provide that, unless you want the demolishing of a homeland for the Jews, as you wish for, obviously. This is why I prefer the 2 states solution with minor exchange of population.
@0kcomputer Unfortunately Jews have been very victimised in history, mostly from Christian oppression, might I add. But to say that they are the "most" victimised nation I think is stretching it a little. Muslims have suffered terribly over the years too; how many Inquisitions were there again? But anyway. I know they have 22 nations, but that is besides the point.
"unless you want the demolishing of a homeland for the Jews, as you wish for, obviously" - did I ever say that? It's not classy to put words in my mouth, you have done it before and you continue to do it. I don't want any homes being demolished, be it Jewish or Arab. It's just wrong on so many different levels.
@thegreatnoor - Don't take it personally, the "obviously" came as a response to your "obviously". And the demolishing of a Jewish state is the only outcome from one state solution. I am surprised you are not aware of that.
You live in Lennon's Imagine song. As a fan, I wish reality was like that.
The Jews has the right for self determination. Arabs and Jews has different culture, different ambitions and both sides don't want to create one nation. It's wrong on so many different levels.
@0kcomputer I don't see why that's necessary though: new settlements are being built all the time, and they can go to Palestinians- it doesn't mean Jewish houses have to be destroyed.
But yes, I am a dreamer. What I would call a pragmatic solution is very far from being achieved. But, one can hope... And I agree, it IS wrong on so many different levels.
@0kcomputer I don't think it's true that a one state solution cannot provide "safety". If anything, I think that it will help eradicate the hate that's been building up for decades now; it will help show that coexistance can occur. Two state means accepting that there is a problem that cannot be unsolved. In a similar way, I was against the partitioning of India into India and Pakistan.
@thegreatnoor - Funny you mentions India. the similarity between Israel and India is remarkable, both were a previous British colonies, both have a religious as a uniting identity (Judaism, Hindi), both have continues battle against the Muslim enemy and with most neighbor countries and more.
Why to mix between nations who want no mix? Why do you choose for others what best for them? By who's authority?
@0kcomputer But the collosal difference is that the Indians didn't want their country to be separated. And I think it's sad that you're referring to the "Muslim enemy" as such, because it's unfair. In the case of Israel, it's not even the 'Muslims' that you classify the problem, it's the Arabs- and Arab is not a religion, because you can get Muslim, Christian, Druze, even Jewish Arabs. Edward Said was a Palestinian Christian who died not so long ago, perhaps you've heard of him?
@0kcomputer Just like Ghandi said, he accepts that the state of Pakistan exists, but that does not mean that he respects it as a nation. Similarly, the Palestinians will not respect Israel under a two-state solution, which is why I think a one-state solution is better- because respect is exactly what these two nations need right now.
@0kcomputer Furthermore, I believe the two-state solution to be a dead one now. What with Israel's dependance on the Jordanian valley, and all the settlements that have been built illegally under international law... it's not feasable to follow through with a two-state solution, because that would mean uprooting already inhabited in houses, etc... and even though they were built on the wrong terms in the first place (illegally), two wrongs don't make a right.
@thegreatnoor- funny how we see things differently. You have to understand. from our side, the 2 states solution is the lesser of two evils. We give up on places of our father ancestors, something you indifferent about. Jews were present in Israel for 3,300 years in succession. The tragedy now, is that 2 nations want the same land.
Justice can never be done. Not from my perspective and not from yours. The partition of the land is the only solution. Period.
@0kcomputer I can at least respect that. But I don' t think that the partition is the only solution- if they both want the land, why can't they both have it? You may think that you're giving up on 'places of [your] father's ancestors', but these are places which the Palestinians had ancestors too, much more recently. Can you not at least respect that? That the Palestinians had to give up so much so that the state of Israel could be born?
@thegreatnoor - I am coming from a place of having to live with it. Respect is overrated my friend. I believe that the establishment of Israel as a homeland for the Jews is the most just thing that ever happened in history. Not more and not less. I have no respect for population that deny the holocaust, represent me as the biggest devil in the world and so on.
Regardless, I have to live with the fact that there is a collective awareness of a Palestinian nation and thus, 2 states solution.
@0kcomputer the creation of Israel happened, and it was good for Jewish people, but it wasn't just for the Palestinians. I do not respect Holocaust deniers, either, but I know many Arabs and not one of them is one of these. Not one of them thinks Jews are the "biggest devils in the world". In fact, I've seen something great living here in England, and that's Jewish and Arab people befriending one another.
@thegreatnoor - but the real tragedy is how the Palestinians enternalized their status. Declaring war on Israel on 1947 has resulted the hudnreds of thousands roaming to other arab countries. (what u call Nakba). No one talks about the Jewish Nakba where 800,000 Jews were exiled and banished from their Arab countries. MORE THAN 50 MILLIONS had the same experience of Population exchange as a result of national conflicts but none claimed for the RIGHT OF RETURN (which target is demolishing Israel)
@0kcomputer You have been severely misinformed, which is a sad thing, really, but at least I don't hold you responsible for the propoganda lies which have been culmunating in Israel for decades.
No, what caused the Nakba was that the Palestinians were forced out of their homes systematically. NOT that they refused to live with the Jews, which is how you put it.
@thegreatnoor - I never put it this way. Some of them got orders from the Arab regime to get out (they promised them that when Palestine will be conquered again, they will exile the Jews and have the runners back to their homes), some were exiled because of the Jewish commander's orders and some just ran always. History is not cloture where everybody has an opinion. There are facts, and no lies can change those facts. I believe you will say the same about that I have just said.
@0kcomputer This is one of the many untruths about the situation. The Palestinians did not flee becaus neighbouring Arab countries asked them to, but because they were hearing cases of fellow Palestinians being "murder[ed], mutilat[ed] and rape[d]" (quoting Bowen again here, can you really tell me that HE is biased?), because of incidents such as Deir Yassin and so forth.
Exactly, history is about fact- but yours seem to be highly confused. I am providing you with proof here.
@thegreatnoor - Which proof? does your words equle truth? don't be mistaken. I can answer you back with the same "This is one of the many untruths about the situation". my words are valid and being supported by history books. History can be twisted easily as you see with holocause denial industry. So why do you give a hand to the twisting of history?Did i deny Deir Yassin? can you deny the 1921 massacre? the 1929? Gush Ezion Massacre? Zefat? Haddasa? Mount scopus?
@0kcomputer What on earth are you talking about? There was no "Jewish Nakba" in the Arab countries. The closest thing I can think to a "Jewish Nakba" is the Holocaust, and that was most certainly NOT caused by Arabs. As we have already established, Arabs and Jews (most of which who lived in Arab countries considered themselves to be Arab Jews, as they considered the Arabic culture to be their own) lived harmoniously together.
@thegreatnoor - u see? Good to know new things. Check it out on the web and come back to me with your conclusions. And I beg to differ about the "harmoniously together". There's some minor truth in it, but you tend to choose to have a selective sight. For example, between 1948-1967 there was no access to the Jews to its holiest place. Can you honestly say that Israel forbid Christians or Muslims to get to their holiest places? (Except for what u hear in al jazeera).
@0kcomputer As a matter of fact (to your last question), YES. And might I add, during 48-67 East Jerusalem was under Jordanian control- the Jordanians, who had secretly collaborated with the Jews to make sure that the Palestinians wouldn't get their own state. During that time, East Jerusalem was not under the control of the Palestinians- rather, the Jordanians. And I don't respect what they did, before you start putting words in my mouth.
@thegreatnoor - we talked about Arab world and Jordan is an arab state. The narative about "Palestinian nation" was yet to be created between 1948-1967.
indicate preciesly what you mean to say about the comparison between the Jordanian policy of access to the holy places, the palstinians propoganda of AL AQSA and the israeli policy.
Please be honest. we don't want to lose each other respect.
after that, let us talk about the Hamas convention.
@0kcomputer We have talked about the Arab world, and I have also told you before that I think many Arab governments are corrupt. But that is besides the point. King Abdullah of Jordan had specifically set out to prevent the Palestinians from getting their own state, and he had the help of Jewish Zionists to do this.
And what is it specifically you want to talk about Hamas?
@0kcomputer Israel does not let Muslims visit Al-Aqsa mosque, which is the third holiest place for them. Even the Palestinians living in the occupied West Jerusalem cannot visit it unless they are over a certain age, don't quote me on this because I'm not certain, but it's about 60- which, considering the average life expectancy of Arabs being 70, is quite high!
@0kcomputer Occupied territories: East Jerusalem, practically all of the West Bank, the Golan Heights. These regions are internationally recognised to be occupied and when Israel builds upon them it is illegal and even America recognises this.
And what do I mean about the comparison with the Jordanian policy to the Israeli one? I'll tell you this first: I don't know much about what Jordan DID during the years it controlled the West Bank, so I don't know how (un)/restrictive it has been.
@0kcomputer However, I do know that if a Muslim wanted to visit Jerusalem to visit al Aqsa that they would be denied entry. Let me give you an example, not completely relevent to Al Aqsa, but still relevent to Muslims wanting to travel into Israel. I know of a Muslim woman who was studing at Harvard University. She wanted to visit Tel Aviv to do work on her thesis, not participate in any political activism. Guess what? She was detained at the airport for hours and then denied entry into Israel.
@thegreatnoor =It is 45 and you know exactly when and where they are limited. (Or maybe you don't know or willing to know)
What do you have to say about the Palestinian propaganda that Jerusalem is not holy to the Jews and that history proves that there is no connection between the Jews and Jerusalem?
BTW, you keep ignoring my questions and remarks from the last post. There's no reason to continue in this way.
@0kcomputer Okay, I correct myself. There was no "mass migration" of Arabs in 45.
I am familiar with certain propogandas from both ends; you yourself seem to be a victim of Israeli propoganda. The difference is that I do not condone Palestinian ones which say that there is no connection between the Jews and Jerusalem.
So, in answer to your question, what do I have to say about it? I don't agree with it, but that doesn't nullify anything.
@thegreatnoor -Doesn't it nullufy anything? And I am a victim of the Israeli propaganda?
That is the essence of it. The connection between Israel and the Jews is essential for understanding the conflict. This is why, so many in the Arab world, many from the Palestinians, spend so much time and money to refute the connection between Israel and the Jews, the denial of the holocaust and so on.
@thegreatnoor - Can't find my legs and hands here due to the many posts. You can send messages to my inbox here, and I continue to discuss about these issues. One thing before hand. Be more modest about the knowledge u present here, as if they were the utter truth. Check WHO criticizes Benny Morris, the competent authority of this conflict, (until last years, by all historians), b4 u read the content. Despite the fundamental disagreement, I respect your "bona fide" - very rare in this platform.
@0kcomputer and I am not ignoring any questions. If anything, you are ignoring many of the comments which I am making; kind of like selective responding.
If you feel that there are questions that I haven't answered clearly enough for you please, bring them up, and I'd happily clarify anything you need to know on by behalf.
LEGALLY ISRAEL HAS NO RIGHT TO TAKE LAND OF THE PALESTINIANS. JEWS RELY ON THE BIBLE(A BOOK THATS MORE THAN 2000 YEARS OLD). THEY SAY THE HOLY LAND IS OUR LAND(WHICH IS REALLY UNBELIEVABLE THAT PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT).BUT OK LET'S GIVE THE JEWS THEIR LAND.WHY ARE THEY KEEP TAKING LAND AND KEEP THROWING PALESTINIANS OUT THEIR HOMES.WHY CAN'T JUST LET THE PALESTINIANS LIVE IN PEACE?MORE THEN 1MILLION PEOPLE LIVE IN GAZA?THAT'S 1/3 OF iSRAEL POPULATION AND LOOK AT THE SIZE OF EACH COUNTRY!FREE GAZA
what was legal for Arabs to launch a war for portions of land which were acquired by legal means by jews?
this is more logical for muslims to rely on fairy tale told by Muhammad "journey to far mosque" to claim proprietorship on temple mount?
was it logical to blocked the golden gate out of fear that Jewish prophesy could be real? or in 1920 to inflame Arabs against the jews over their presence in the wailing war?
@ygalg WHAT YOU'VE JUST SAID HERE IS BS. THAT STILL DOESN'T JUSTIFY WHY ISRAEL KEEPS THROWING INNOCENT CHILDREN AND WOMEN OU OF THEIR HOMES.BUT ISRAEL IS SIGHNIN IT'S OWN DEATHPENALTY.ISRAEL IS LOSING THE SUPPORT OF A%ERICA FOR A REASON.AMERICA SEES TROUGH THE EYES OF THEIR PRESIDENT OBAMA THAT ISRAEL IS TAKING THIS A LIL TOO FAR.I'M NOT SAYING TO DEPORTATE EVERY JEW?I WANT TO COUNTRIES:ISRAEL AND PALESTINE.BUT SOON ISRAEL WILL HAVE NO LAND IF THEY KEEP UP LIKE THIS
@karimothadon Yes but the fact is the people in Gaza and the west bank are Arabs. If we look at Jordan, Syria, etc we get a real picture of the land and population comparison. Jews are the minority Arabs are the clear majority in the Area who own much more land than Israel.
Palestinians want all of Israel. Israel would love for Palestinians to "live in peace" but they refuse to stop fighting til they have ALL of Israel. They are not peaceful people to "let live in peace". Let Jews live in peace
this man is killing me! OF COURSE THE MAJORITY IS ARAB BECAUSE THAT LAND IS OWNED BY ARABS AND STOLEN FROM THEM BY YOURE ZIONIST GOVERNMENT! if you cant even get that in you re retarded head STOP TALKING. And of course the palestinians want theire own land back what now is called israel. They are PEACEFULL people, look at history. When the nazi s in Germany were killing youre kind the palestinians welcomed youre people in Palestina. ANd look how you rewarded them for doing so
@PeaceandUnity1972 Jews are from the middle east dummy. All Jews are genetically traced to the middle east. Jews lived in Israel for 4000 years. Arab Muslims conquest Jerusalem in the 7th century by murdering thousands of Jews and Christians there. Like Islam conquests the whole middle east, they are not indigenous to Palestine.
Palestinians and the other Arabs attacked Jews fleeing Nazis, and tried to stop them from immigrating. If they were peaceful they would all live together in Israel now.
You freaking moron, you talk about islam conquests in the whole middle east? ok.
The world was in WAR in those days you freak.
Palestinians and the other arabs attacked jews because they were committing Genocide in the region ( because theire intention was to turn the people in the region into refugees so they could build theire own country that was first a british mandate) They didnt attack jews fleeing becuase they were jews!!!!so .... you are AGAIN spreading lies.
@PeaceandUnity1972 Not the whole world. Jews were farmers in Medina and took care of Muhammad and refrained from fighting, before Muhammad robbed, exiled and brutally massacred them.
Holocaust refugees poorly armed committed genocide in pre-48 Israel? WTF are you on about? Palestinian Grand Mufti was meeting with Hitler himself. That is the REAL genocide. Never been a genocide of Palestinians ever. Stop talking silly propaganda.
jews were meeting hitler also bcoz they wanted the british out of the holyland, btw jews sponserd hitler to power, the moneyhandler was j.w bush`s grandfather.
@karimothadon Islam conquered the middle east and North Africa (which they are not indigenous to).
These discussions have no point when they all stem from your stupidity and racism. Arabs are colonialists and finally got checked. So now they cry like faggots and beg like bums to the world. Most people are not gullible enough to believe the Palestinians con game. Arabs own 99.8% of the land already. They are like a man with a huge house and BMW going downtown to bag for money.
and when exactly in history,an independet arab mulsim state,that was distiniguish from egypt and syria,and its name was *palestine* and its capital was jerusalem ever existed?
seriusly,i looked in many books.i couldnt find a *palestinian* king,coin,nothing.it was a samll and neglected part of many muslim empiers.its mulsims were either beduim or falachin?what *palestinians*? maybe shamim(syrians).only jews ever called themself palestinians.
there are several main mistakes in historical interpretation:
First, he keeps talking about the defeat of large arab countries by a small community. which is simply untrue ... the Hagana outnumbered the arab armies (90,000 to 60,000). Also, when he talks about how Israel viewed the palestinians there and that they knew they existed ...He makes it seem that the jews were dealing with a minority. In 1948, the jewish population is Palestine represented about 30% persent of the population.
end of story. it is not a controversial subject. There is a plethora of documented quotes from zionist leaders (Gurion,Sharon, Netanahu, Barack) that exemplify both racist and aparthied tendencies
On 30 November 1973, the United Nations General Assembly opened for signature and ratification the International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid (ICSPCA)[1] It defined the crime of apartheid as "inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them."
he crime of apartheid is defined by the 2002 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court as inhumane acts of a character similar to other crimes against humanity "committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime."
For those who are serious about studying this conflict: see a devastating reply by Peter Bouckaert to the biased claims of Benny Morris-in New Republic, 19 June 2006. Peter is the Emergencies Director for Human Rights Watch, one of the largest and well respected mainstream human rights organizations in the world.
israel is just such a fuck up country. Why do the palestinean have to pay for the crimes comitted to the israel during the holocoust. I would do as the palestinean did if someone would want to occupy my country. Everyone would. Maybe israel will undestand if someday another country occupies them by satanic force as they are currently doing. Peace to the middle east.
Most civilians were not killed in UN facilities, that's wrong. Irael claimed that the majority of attacks against civilian facilities took place because Hamas used them for some sort of military activity (this does not have to be rocket launching).
The whole with White Phospherous is conterversiol. It is common around the world to use Phospherous in order to mark targets, etc. There are few evidence suggesting Israel used it - in civilian areas- with the intent to kill.
I am sure you respect the International Red Cross, so I'll quote the head of its mines-arms unit : "In some of the strikes in Gaza it's pretty clear that phosphorus was used, but it's not very unusual to use phosphorus to create smoke or illuminate a target. We have no evidence to suggest it's being used in any other way."
The International Red Cross made one observation but the fact still remains that hundreds were burned alive by WP. Israel also used experamental wepons like fletchet shell anti-personel munitions intended to destroy internal organs so the victom cannot be operated on.
Israeli Appologists have been making excuses for Israel's brutality since the Lavon Affair and the U.S.S. Liberty incident.
This observation that the IDF's use of WP did not break the rules of war was made by several other human rights organizations, including Btselem. Indeed even Goldstone's report concured that the use of WP did not break the rules of war. Many say that although it was not illegal, the use of WP in Gaza was careless. Well, if houndrads of people really died from WP (like u said) I would agree with such assertions, however houndrads of people did not die of WP. Pls check the facts first.
A real problem is how you frame the issue. You say that there were no rules of war that were broken.
What happened in Gaza did not fit the definition of a war. When Britian was attacked by the IRA who were more dangerous than HAMASS. If the British had carpet bombed Belfast killed 1400 and had a 100 to 1 kill ratio and said we were only targeting the terrorists that were hidden among the civilians everyone would laugh and those who ordered the attacks would have been in jail for war crimes.
Well we don't know what would have happened in this situation. We can't play "if" games . I do assume however that if the British army had invaded Belfast and encounered resistance or found tons of tactical weapons hidden in Catholic churches or found Vietcong-like tunnels dug through out Northern Ireland, u would see a lot of dead Irish civilians. Besides, the number of British civilans killed in WW2 by Germans was much lower than the amount of German civilans killed by British or Americans.
The Economic blockade of Gaza was in effect before HAMAS was elected to office. They could easliy stop wepons smuggling without a economic blockade.
There were people starving and dying from lack of medical supplys in Gaza before this. Tell me, how can a blood bag or vaccine or food be used as a wepon aginst Israeli civilians?
If there was no blockade there would be no tunnles in Gaza.
Hamas was given aid in 1983 to counter the PLO inflence. It was a social aid organization. After Oslo it developed a militant wing that took up the goal of Islamizing Palestine and driving out the Jews,
The IDF planned this in early 2008, they say so on there website. Israel admits that HAMAS not only fired no rockets during the cease fire period but they tried to stop lone rocket attacks. This even though Israel broke the cease fire agreement on Nov 4,
There were over 1400 Gazans dead and 14 Israelis killed (3 by friendly fire) 100 to 1 ratio. People with rockets that do no more damage than a pipe bomb vs The IDF.
Would you use a sledgehammer to kill a fly in your house?
it isnt illegal since israel captured it from JORDAN (which took it over after 48 war) in 49, and this is why israel bulding colonies there isnt exactly illegal.
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fuck all debates! it's time for action! you can't claim the ownership of a land based on a book that says the earth is flat and it doesn't move! fuck israel! 1947 borders for palestine!
salvi447 4 months ago in playlist intellectuals debate israel palestine
it's impractical for modern civilized people to co-exist with primitive savages..Europe will be swimming with money if they kicked the Muslims out..and here in America,if it weren't for Muslims,there would be no war on terror.Muslims are more trouble than they're worth.even their cloths haven't evolved from the camel train era.
We should stop Muslim immigration to the west,period ..
hayden50 11 months ago
@hayden50 i don't consider, colonization, annexation, expropriation, rape, robbery,genocide, infanticide and homicide. Civilized behavior and a sign of evolutionary progress.
It's the kind of behavior displayed by savages. just because your clothes are modern doesn't mean you have evolved beyond the savage behavior of your primitive ancestors. The only difference is europeans used to bathe once a year now you bathe once a month.
mauritiusbleu 10 months ago
@mauritiusbleu get a fucking job Hippie..
hayden50 10 months ago
@hayden50 I work in the Birmingham magistrates court. I maintain their computer systems. Swearing at me isn't a sign of intelligence.
Your job is to refute my argument not to assume you know anything about who i am or what i do for a living. I thought you were in England but i have just checked your profile and you are in america.
That explains why you are so ignorant and a border-line sociopath
mauritiusbleu 10 months ago
@mauritiusbleu ahahaa..Don't be hurt..I only told you to get a job because it said on your youtube page ,that you were looking for employment..Anyway, you didn't present any argument to refute, just a pathetic bitchy rant So what was your argument ? BTW, what are you ? A muzzie?a nigger ?
hayden50 10 months ago
@hayden50 i'm a better man than you, that's all you need to know !
mauritiusbleu 10 months ago
@mauritiusbleu well,i could tell you to "be a man",but lets be honest failed abortion, you are NO man..
hayden50 10 months ago
@hayden50 i guess you thought that was going to sound funny but that's another failure. it took you eight hours to reply and that's all you could say. you are just another dumb american and nobody likes you
you really are a worthless little loser !
mauritiusbleu 10 months ago
@mauritiusbleu hmmmmm,listen failed abortion, i have better things to do with my life rather than getting into pointless flame wars like a child..
here's my advice, Go home today & shoot yourself in the face, no one will miss you..
hayden50 10 months ago
@hayden50 you are a child, that has already been established. now shut your mouth, stop typing and go back to playing your video games.
you simple minded american idiot !
mauritiusbleu 10 months ago
@mauritiusbleu Yawn.....why do your comments continue to cause yawn ??
hayden50 10 months ago
@hayden50 I know what type of person you are. Dummies like you play C.O.D or spend their empty days trying to understand things beyond their comprehension.
i read a few of the comments you posted on another video and it's clear to all who read them that you are an idiot. Get your facts straight before trying to debate with someone or you end up sounding foolish.
Now go and eat a dick sandwich !
mauritiusbleu 10 months ago
@mauritiusbleu Yawn......
Get it straight failed abortion, no one takes your opinion into account,except maybe your fast food manager. And even then, only the proper temperature for the fryolator. I in the other hand get paid for mine
Now be good or I'll stick you back in Your Hole again..
hayden50 10 months ago
@hayden50 nobody pays you anything for your opinions and at least you are finally beginning to admit that you work in a fast food restaurant.
stop yawning because your breath smells like someone took a dump in your mouth !
mauritiusbleu 10 months ago
@mauritiusbleu Look failed abortion, your mom is a whore,and she lives under the bridge. Too bad you failed abortion that your mommy did not stick that coat hanger up her nasty snatch a little harder and for a little longer.... Just think, one more good poke and scramble and you would not be wasting air... Oh the shame.
hayden50 10 months ago
@hayden50 Your childish behavior is a sign of poor parenting. i'm above insulting your mother but i will insult your wife. but we all know you don't have a wife. how does it feel to be ugly and repulsive to the opposite sex ?
you are just another poor, broke and lonely little man child. 24 years old and you talk like a troubled teenager who has a terrible case of acne.
Now go back to "playing" with yourself because nobody is interested in what you have to say
mauritiusbleu 10 months ago
@mauritiusbleu I have guilty pleasures tormenting douche bags like yourself,Listen up Virgin, once some girl pays you the time of day, or more likely, once you pay some girl some cash, and you actually touch a real woman's breast, you'll give up all of this nonsense.
A consistent lack of pussy is your problem Virgin.
hayden50 10 months ago
@hayden50 is that all you have ? instead of creating your own insults you simply rephrase what i say to you
you can never torment me because i see you as an insignificant pile of horse feces. you have never experienced "pussy" so please stop acting like you have a wife.
your right hand does not count as a girlfriend !
mauritiusbleu 10 months ago
@hayden50 the only guilty pleasures you have are looking at your sister naked in the shower, smelling her soiled underwear and masturbating.
mauritiusbleu 10 months ago
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@mauritiusbleu YAWN...
WOW, you have such weird fantasies..Listen failed abortion,you're nothing but a griefer.Really, you're not worth the toilet paper I wipe my ass with. Nothing you have to say has any value whatsoever
Please, keep telling me how much more pathetic you are.
You are My Dog, I am Your Master.Now be good or I'll stick you back in Your Hole again
hayden50 10 months ago
@hayden50 lame comeback but i will give you three points for the effort and a bonus point because your last comment has been marked as spam.
Loser... And that's a compliment.
mauritiusbleu 10 months ago
@mauritiusbleu what are you babbling about now Virgin,? I'm not sure what womb of puss and scum and pig shit you fell out of,but how do your fast food manager feel about you taking so much time away from the fry machine to post on YouTube?
You continue to display your small mindedness Virgin. But as long as you don't mind getting pwned, you can keep coming back for more abuse....
Bye Virgin..
hayden50 10 months ago
@hayden50 sorry fool but abusive comments are not a sign of intelligence. we have already established that you have no wife.You are a 24 year old man child with no friends and you lack basic social skills
the only one displaying a limited vocabulary and the inability to post sensible comments is you. so i guess you are pwning yourself. If you had better parenting we wouldn't be having this meaningless conversation.
mauritiusbleu 10 months ago
@hayden50 Ranting like a child is not a sign of superior intelligence or cognitive functions.
I think you are just a delusional little loser and every time you post a comment it tells us all. What can happen to your children if you neglects your duties as a responsible parent.
your parents left you in front of the TV for long periods of time. Resulting in you growing up to become a mentally challenged buffoon.
mauritiusbleu 10 months ago
PEACEFUL ARABS say,
"This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades."
-Azzam Pasha, Secretary General of the Arab League, 1948
Multiculturalism is a cult of ignorance.under separation of church & state,we've let Islam to mushroom in the west,& look at the mess we're in.don't these liberal idiots understand that Islam isn't liberal & there can never be separation of mosque & state ?
long live Israel
hayden50 11 months ago
Kill the Zionists
opium340 1 year ago
Sorry, Noor, but Britain and America didn't arm Israel -- it was Czechoslavakia, not exactly a great military power. Israel is NOT illegally occupying territory; if they are, then explain how come Egypt and Jordan weren't illegally occupying them pre-1967? Why didn't the Palestinians form a state when they had 100% of the territory and there were NO SETTLEMENTS at all ? Arabs and Palestinians in Israel enjoy greater freedom and a better standard of living than in most Arab countries.
zl1vette427 1 year ago
@desiman1 get out of here you flaming racist. Posting propaganda like the zionist scrolls, as you clearly have not read, is made by the Russian Tzar's secret police. Mixing this extreme racism is fueling Israels Holocaust abuse. So if you want things to get better for Palestinians then stop the spew of propaganda and focus on the facts.
We have the evidence against Israel. It is very very clear and no confusion about it, except from the extremists that dont legitimate f.ex the World Court.
m0kkaleiavbrukernavn 1 year ago
@zl1vette427 of course there was no nation there before. The British had a colony of the area and before that the Turkish dictatorship, Ottoman Empire.
But you say here; The indignious population of any area, do not have any rights to their land that they lived on before the invasion. It fits the world pretty well, as indians in the US, lapp's in Scandinavia and indignious people all over the world.
You present the institute of a "nation" to be a requirement for right on land is unpresidented
m0kkaleiavbrukernavn 1 year ago
u wannan know what zionists are?
pls read TALMUD, and PROTOCOL OF ELDERS OF ZION.
desiman1 1 year ago
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Who is the enemy here?
YOU SHOULD NOT USE THE TERM "THE JEWS" WHEN SPEAKING ABOUT ISRAEL.
Israel is a terrorist ZIONIST state.
Israel CLAIMS to be the state of the Jews but it isn't. It only brings them SHAME.
Zion is the Judaic "promised laned"
...BUT ZIONISTS WANT IT NOW... ...AND WILL FLATTEN ANYTHING IN THEIR PATH. They wish to FORCE the hand of God.
WRITE to the Whitehouse & Number 10
MAKE them take action
Break Israel's aparteid
BlackRoof 1 year ago
Sorry, but there was no country or cohesive nation in Palestine pre-1948. If there was, then how did a bunch of poorly-armed Jews outnumbered 2:1 drive them out, and beat 5 Arab nations at the same time ? Survival of the fittest...Manifest Destiny...whatever you call it, Israel has built a thriving and flourishing society. They export alot of good stuff....only thing Hamas and the PLO export is suicide bombers.
zl1vette427 1 year ago 2
@zl1vette427
there was no muslim country like we see now.
muslim were all together like the US, if we one day get together again, we will get back to u.
WE WILL NEVER FORGET AND NEVER FORGIVE.
u won the wars bcoz, u attacked peacefull ppl and ppl who were not conspirators like u.
desiman1 1 year ago
@zl1vette427 So if an atomic bomb was dropped over Israel and killed everyone in the country, that would be ok for you because that would demonstrate that they are not the "fittest"
Also I guess you are against any kind of economical compensation for the Holocaust victims and their siblings, against UK/USA intervention in the IIWW, against judicial power and subsidies for the Katrina victims... Or rather you have a concept of "fittest" that has remained unexplained
Burdell22000 1 year ago
@zl1vette427 This is a load of rubbish. Palestine did have a people, only it wasn't recognised as an independent state as it was under British mandate. What you are saying is historically inaccurate and a lie. And the Jews weren't 'poorly armed'; far from it. They had support from Britain and America.
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
@zl1vette427 your last comment shows pure ignorance. Not that I condone it at all, the suicide bombings are done as a response to the dehuminisation which the Palestinian's have suffered under Israeli rule, particularly in the occupied territories. If someone comes and demolishes your house, you're not allowed to fight back? Under international law the oppressed can fight against the oppressor, and Israel has illegally occupied territories and oppressed the Palestinians since even before 67.
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
@thegreatnoor - Your last comment shows pure ignorance.
You pay lip service by saying "Not that I condones it at all" and then rationalize it. Just be honest, you don't need to disguise your indifference about murdering of Jews. Secondly, you can't hide from the chicken and egg question, which the answer on it is clear. Demolishing houses came as a response to the terror activity and fundamental undermining of our right as Jews to live in our homeland. Deal with arguments, do not bypass it.
0kcomputer 1 year ago
@0kcomputer are you really mimicking my arguments like a little 7 year old? I'm not "rationalising" it, I'm explaining it. Funny how you seem to be mixing the facts up here. The attacks are done as a RESPONSE to what the Palestinian's have been subjucated to. And I'm not hiding from the "chicken and egg" question; you do realise that the Palestinians have semite roots; their ancestors were Jews who converted to either Christianity or Islam
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
@0kcomputer in the days of the Roman Empire and then when Islam came. I have no problem with Jews living in Palestine; don't put words in my mouth. What I disagree with is the way in which the state of Israel was brought about, the systematic genocide against the Palestinians etc etc. Did YOU know that after the Jews were forbidden to live in Jerusalem by the Romans it was an Arab Muslim ruler, Salah ad-Din, who, in 1187, specifically invited the Jews to live in the Holy City?
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
@thegreatnoor- You seem to be an honest person so I'll answer respectfully.
You have a methodical error in the way you approach the Palestinian- Israeli conflict.
1. The conflict is not a territorial one. The conflict is ideological with religious roots and it all comes down to 2 things. 1- Palestinian method of thinking that there is no Jewish nation. 2- That Jews do not have the right for a homeland in Great Palestine.
TO be continued in the next post.
0kcomputer 1 year ago
@0kcomputer I am fully aware of UN Resolution 181. I am also aware that, when the UN Partition was proposed in 1947, it gave 60% of the land to the Jews and the rest to the Arabs, whilst at the time the Jewish population in the region was 7-10%. So you can see why the Arabs would reject such a partition. The Palestians do not think that there is no Jewish nation, because clearly there is one.
TBC next post
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
@0kcomputer The whole argument on whether Israel has a "right" to exist I find a flawed one. Israel does exist, and the Palestinian's are well aware of it. However, the reason why they oppose that authority of the state is because they were 'disposessed and exiled' if they became refugees and 'humiliated and abused' if they stayed. (I'm quoting Jeremy Bowen here).
TBC
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
@thegreatnoor - People tend to pimp in big words like apartheid, racism, genocide and so on. You fell to the same trap, innocently or deliberately.
What happened in the independence war, in terms of massacres, happened in both ends, who more and who less.unfortunately, It happened in every war, before and after.
Read in "1948" of Benny Morris. Now, let's be accurate and debate about the population in Great Palestine before 1948.
0kcomputer 1 year ago
@0kcomputer I assure you I fell into no 'trap'. The word 'apartheid' includes "policies and practies of racial segregation and discrimination... shall apply to the following inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group ofpersons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them" [Resolution 3068 of UN General assembly]
TBC
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
@0kcomputer I can name you many examples of exactly why I think Israeli Apartheid exists; of course, that would be very time-consuming and even then I wouldn't be able to list you all of them, but if you want me to give you proof, I shall.
I agree with you on one thing, that massacres happenned on both ends; however, the scale of these massacres was undeniably greater towards the Arabs, most of which (though still wrong) as retaliation.
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
@thegreatnoor - There is no apartheid, no genocide and no segregation. The Israeli- Palestinian conflict cannot be compared to South Africa, unless "you" are a pure wicked bastard.
This is ignorance mixed with pure evil.
How come this is an apartheid where they are not willing to be citizens in my country and where the reason for them being under siege is because of security reason. Have you ever read Hamas convent? Why is the west bank not under siege if we want to activate apartheid?
0kcomputer 1 year ago
@0kcomputer You just said that you couldn't agree more with my last statement and then you call me a pure wicked bastard. Really? So what, you're denying it is going to wipe away all of the facts just like that? Maybe the reason why they don't want to be citizens of Israel is because of how your state has treated them. And as I have already said, the "security reason" or so you call it is only in place because the Palestinians are retaliating- fighting back.
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
For some books I'd recommend, try "Peace not Apartheid" by Jimmy Carter, "The Iron Wall" by Avi Shlaim, "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" by Ilan Pappe- to name a few.
I'm at least glad that we've been able to debate in a civil manner; that's something that's rare to find in these internet debates, most of which consist mainly of people constantly insulting one another. In this way I can at least respect your views, even if I don't agree with them.
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
@thegreatnoor - I couldn't agree more with your last paragraph and i am happy to see that you put your money where your mouth is.
I can tell who you are by the books you read. I have read pappe. He is the Auto-anti-Semite of this time, together with Chomsky. I can imagine what your reaction would be to my comment but I can assure you I don't easily label someone as an Anti-Semite. This Scholars world is painted with 2 colors, blck and white, in such a complicated issue.
0kcomputer 1 year ago
@0kcomputer I find it funny how you can even think to label someone as Pappe as a self-hating Jew. Just because their opinions don't correspond to those of Israeli diplomats doesn't mean that he's any less of a person- in fact, I think that Pappe and the likes of him (e.g. Norman Finkelstein) are brave in that they are going against sterotypes.
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
@thegreatnoor- 181 resolution of the UN, which determined the partition of the territory into two states, one Jewish and one Arab, was denied by the Arab world. A day after, 5 Jewish people were murdered what started our Independence war what you call the 1948 war or Nakba. Please don't pimp in words like Genocide as it was your whore. Genocide is what Muslim people do to their own people along the Muslim countries in the world.
Btw, Muslims can be good hosts only when they are the hosts.
0kcomputer 1 year ago
@0kcomputer the Nakba doesn't relate to the war, it more specifically relates to the exodus/exilation of 650,000-750,000 Palestinians. When I use the word "genocide" I know perfectly well what I am talking about and I use it very literally; such are the cases in the well-known Deir Yassin massacre and many others committed by the Hagana.
TBC
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
@0kcomputer You make these allegations presuming that I agree with them- In actual fact, I am very much aware that a number of Arab states are corrupt- but we are not talking about them now. And it's funny how you say "Muslim" countries, as though the term is specific to only those. Historically it is the Christians who have committed the most genocide, in events such as the Holocaust or in Ireland more recently.
TBC
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
@0kcomputer that doesn't nullify my claim. I'll give you another example- In Spain the 3 main religions lived together harmoniously until 1492 when King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella expelled the Jews and Muslims. The Jews fled to the Arab countries, where they were treated fairly. Just because Muslims were the "hosts" of those countries as such does not make it any less of a gesture- if anything it makes even a bigger one. Look how Israel treats its Arab citizens today so see which is fairer.
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
@thegreatnoor-first of all, here some facts.it wasn't 7%-10%. In 1948 there were 650,000 Jews (Vs 1.3 Million Arabs) in Palestine (37%). You are wrong that this territory "belonged" to someone at that time. Looking at the history, this area was occupied, conquered throughout the last 1300 years by the Arabs, Malmuks, Ottomans and the British. Who inhabited it at all this time?
You keep ignoring the fact that Zionism created de facto the Palestinian nation. No signs of Palestinians ambitions b4.
0kcomputer 1 year ago
@0kcomputer I don't know where you get your facts from, but some of them don't seem to be straight. Benny Morris is well known for using only Israeli sources; so of course his sources will contain bias. And it was 7-10% in 1947- the time of the UN partition plan, which is when I referred to. The number had increased to around 30% in 1948, when Britain withdrew from the mandate and Israel was born.
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
@0kcomputer The areas of Palestine, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria used to all be one country before the British and the French split it up in the Ottoman empire, but that does not mean that just because Palestine was created as part of a partition by the British that the area did not have inhabitants whose ancestors were in the region for over a 1000 years- it did, and those people should have a right of being in Palestine/Israel.
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
@thegreatnoor- I expect you to fully condemn the anti-Semitism and Jihadist actions against Israel in Gaza and the west bank, not just pay lip service to it. They can teach the children there, that Israel was born in a sin, but they cannot teach them, that there was no holocaust, that we are the children of monkeys and pigs and that all Jews should be thrown to the sea.
Israeli Arabs are like a Trojan horse inside Israel.This is so sad cuz the majority wanted to live with them in co-existence.
0kcomputer 1 year ago
@0kcomputer Of course I condemn anti-semitism and suicide bombings and what not- but I also condemn the demolition of homes of the Palestinians, their exodus in 1948, their treatment in the occupied terrirories and within Israel itself, to name a few.
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
@thegreatnoor- Benni Morris was the HOLLY BIBLE of the world until he wrote his last book and then, "they" started to condemn him and blacken his face. The way I see it, that's a pure hypocrisy.
1- The Arab population was sparse before 1882 in "PALESTINE" that factually was divided to sub districts- subordinate to Beirut or Syria.
2- There was not state and there was no "nation" in the territories under the British Mandate. That was the real background of the Balfour Declaration.
0kcomputer 1 year ago
@0kcomputer Benny Morris was never the 'holy bible' to me. His views, unfortunately, did drastically change and I see that as a result of the pressure he's been subjugated to by fellow Israelis. But like I said, he is not a reliable source and I have already explained why.
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
@thegreatnoor - no you haven't. Unless saying that "he is not a reliable source" is an explanation.
0kcomputer 1 year ago
@0kcomputer I have explained; I said that Benny Morris only uses Israeli sources. That is why he is unreliable.
But yeah, I also believe that the Palestinian refugees should have the right of return.
Anyhow, out of curiousity, which part of Israel are you from?
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
@thegreatnoor - i live in Jerusalem my friend. in west Jerusaelm (-:.
0kcomputer 1 year ago
@thegreatnoor -I live in Jerusalem my friend. In west Jerusalem (-:.
Which part of UK are you from?
I refer you to the 1948 book in the bibliography section. You tell me if he use only Israeli sources. Which one the others use? Do they use Israeli sources?
0kcomputer 1 year ago
Comment removed
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
@0kcomputer As for other historians which I like to credit, Jeremy Bowen always has a healthy balance for sources from all sides. I don't know of your opinion of Avi Shlaim, but I am sure we can both agree that he is at least a credible source. I know you do not approve of Ilan Pappe, but his facts are impeccable, whether we like it or not. The thing about Morris is that he might very well be a good historian and I would never know it, simply because he is known to be one-sided.
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
@thegreatnoor Pappe's fact's may be correct but it is the decontextualiztion of these facts that are the problem. Pappe acts as if Jews arrived, said "Vini, vidi, vici" and that was that. To ignore the backdrop of war and the Palestinian Arabs own contributions to the conflict is disingenuous. Pappe also admits that he doesn't consider himself a historian but someone who is trying to advance an agenda. Read his quotes about "historiographer" to see this.
Amunkriket 1 year ago
@0kcomputer and I just want to correct myself, sorry. I said occupied West Jerusalem, I meant East.
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
@thegreatnoor - In that case, ignore my post dealing with your cooment about the west.
0kcomputer 1 year ago
@0kcomputer just want to correct myself: I said occupied West Jerusalem; I meant East Jerusalem. "Even the Palestinians living in the occupied [West ] Jerusalem cannot visit it"
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
@0kcomputer If the Arab population was so 'sparse', as you like to put it, then how come 750,000 Palestinians had to flee their homes? Surely if it were 'sparse', then there would be no need for the Palestinians to have fled and been exiled? Your arguments do not make sense.
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
@thegreatnoor - Well, between 1882 to 1948 there are 66 years, right?
Because of Zionism there was a huge amount of Arab immigration into Palestine and that is why you had 1.3 million in 1948.
I will suggest you not to judge my posts before fully trying to research them.
If you want to get into details we can do it all day. I can give you facts from here to zoolooland. But in the end of the day, you will have to make up your mind, how you see this conflict being solved. That is the key.
0kcomputer 1 year ago
@0kcomputer In actual fact it was the increasing popularity of Zionism which caused the population of the Jewish people to immigrate into the region; hence why only a year before Israel was created the population of Jews in Palestine was 7-10% but in 48 it was 30%. Areas within Palestine were continually inhabited in for thousands of years by the Arabs, I have already given you examples of Saladin, etc.
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
@0kcomputer There was no "mass migration" of them in 48; if anything, the British mandate would have inhibited this as the Balfour Declaration was already set into stone years before Britain siezed control over the region after the defeat of the Ottomon Empire- which, by the way, was only done with the help of the Arabs.
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
@0kcomputer I have already made up my mind: I believe in the one state solution, that Jews and Arabs can coexist peacefully and live under a democratic reign by the majority, be that Jewish or Arab- I do not mind. But I am sure you are for the 2 state solution- obviously. However, I see that accepting the two state solution is accepting that there are irrevocable problems underlying, which means that discrimination will never be resolved.
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
@thegreatnoor- This is the way I see things. Jews, unfortunately the most victimized nation in the history, is fed up being ruled by others. That is the essence of Zionism. We want a homeland for Jews, with no inner enemies, to preserve our unique cloture and our safety for many years to come. One state solution cannot provide that, unless you want the demolishing of a homeland for the Jews, as you wish for, obviously. This is why I prefer the 2 states solution with minor exchange of population.
0kcomputer 1 year ago
@0kcomputer Unfortunately Jews have been very victimised in history, mostly from Christian oppression, might I add. But to say that they are the "most" victimised nation I think is stretching it a little. Muslims have suffered terribly over the years too; how many Inquisitions were there again? But anyway. I know they have 22 nations, but that is besides the point.
TBC
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
@0kcomputer
"unless you want the demolishing of a homeland for the Jews, as you wish for, obviously" - did I ever say that? It's not classy to put words in my mouth, you have done it before and you continue to do it. I don't want any homes being demolished, be it Jewish or Arab. It's just wrong on so many different levels.
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
@thegreatnoor - Don't take it personally, the "obviously" came as a response to your "obviously". And the demolishing of a Jewish state is the only outcome from one state solution. I am surprised you are not aware of that.
You live in Lennon's Imagine song. As a fan, I wish reality was like that.
The Jews has the right for self determination. Arabs and Jews has different culture, different ambitions and both sides don't want to create one nation. It's wrong on so many different levels.
0kcomputer 1 year ago
@0kcomputer I don't see why that's necessary though: new settlements are being built all the time, and they can go to Palestinians- it doesn't mean Jewish houses have to be destroyed.
But yes, I am a dreamer. What I would call a pragmatic solution is very far from being achieved. But, one can hope... And I agree, it IS wrong on so many different levels.
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
@0kcomputer I don't think it's true that a one state solution cannot provide "safety". If anything, I think that it will help eradicate the hate that's been building up for decades now; it will help show that coexistance can occur. Two state means accepting that there is a problem that cannot be unsolved. In a similar way, I was against the partitioning of India into India and Pakistan.
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
@thegreatnoor - Funny you mentions India. the similarity between Israel and India is remarkable, both were a previous British colonies, both have a religious as a uniting identity (Judaism, Hindi), both have continues battle against the Muslim enemy and with most neighbor countries and more.
Why to mix between nations who want no mix? Why do you choose for others what best for them? By who's authority?
0kcomputer 1 year ago
@0kcomputer But the collosal difference is that the Indians didn't want their country to be separated. And I think it's sad that you're referring to the "Muslim enemy" as such, because it's unfair. In the case of Israel, it's not even the 'Muslims' that you classify the problem, it's the Arabs- and Arab is not a religion, because you can get Muslim, Christian, Druze, even Jewish Arabs. Edward Said was a Palestinian Christian who died not so long ago, perhaps you've heard of him?
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
@0kcomputer Just like Ghandi said, he accepts that the state of Pakistan exists, but that does not mean that he respects it as a nation. Similarly, the Palestinians will not respect Israel under a two-state solution, which is why I think a one-state solution is better- because respect is exactly what these two nations need right now.
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
@0kcomputer Furthermore, I believe the two-state solution to be a dead one now. What with Israel's dependance on the Jordanian valley, and all the settlements that have been built illegally under international law... it's not feasable to follow through with a two-state solution, because that would mean uprooting already inhabited in houses, etc... and even though they were built on the wrong terms in the first place (illegally), two wrongs don't make a right.
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
@thegreatnoor- funny how we see things differently. You have to understand. from our side, the 2 states solution is the lesser of two evils. We give up on places of our father ancestors, something you indifferent about. Jews were present in Israel for 3,300 years in succession. The tragedy now, is that 2 nations want the same land.
Justice can never be done. Not from my perspective and not from yours. The partition of the land is the only solution. Period.
0kcomputer 1 year ago
@0kcomputer I can at least respect that. But I don' t think that the partition is the only solution- if they both want the land, why can't they both have it? You may think that you're giving up on 'places of [your] father's ancestors', but these are places which the Palestinians had ancestors too, much more recently. Can you not at least respect that? That the Palestinians had to give up so much so that the state of Israel could be born?
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
@thegreatnoor - I am coming from a place of having to live with it. Respect is overrated my friend. I believe that the establishment of Israel as a homeland for the Jews is the most just thing that ever happened in history. Not more and not less. I have no respect for population that deny the holocaust, represent me as the biggest devil in the world and so on.
Regardless, I have to live with the fact that there is a collective awareness of a Palestinian nation and thus, 2 states solution.
0kcomputer 1 year ago
@0kcomputer the creation of Israel happened, and it was good for Jewish people, but it wasn't just for the Palestinians. I do not respect Holocaust deniers, either, but I know many Arabs and not one of them is one of these. Not one of them thinks Jews are the "biggest devils in the world". In fact, I've seen something great living here in England, and that's Jewish and Arab people befriending one another.
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
@thegreatnoor - but the real tragedy is how the Palestinians enternalized their status. Declaring war on Israel on 1947 has resulted the hudnreds of thousands roaming to other arab countries. (what u call Nakba). No one talks about the Jewish Nakba where 800,000 Jews were exiled and banished from their Arab countries. MORE THAN 50 MILLIONS had the same experience of Population exchange as a result of national conflicts but none claimed for the RIGHT OF RETURN (which target is demolishing Israel)
0kcomputer 1 year ago
@0kcomputer You have been severely misinformed, which is a sad thing, really, but at least I don't hold you responsible for the propoganda lies which have been culmunating in Israel for decades.
No, what caused the Nakba was that the Palestinians were forced out of their homes systematically. NOT that they refused to live with the Jews, which is how you put it.
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
@thegreatnoor - I never put it this way. Some of them got orders from the Arab regime to get out (they promised them that when Palestine will be conquered again, they will exile the Jews and have the runners back to their homes), some were exiled because of the Jewish commander's orders and some just ran always. History is not cloture where everybody has an opinion. There are facts, and no lies can change those facts. I believe you will say the same about that I have just said.
0kcomputer 1 year ago
@0kcomputer This is one of the many untruths about the situation. The Palestinians did not flee becaus neighbouring Arab countries asked them to, but because they were hearing cases of fellow Palestinians being "murder[ed], mutilat[ed] and rape[d]" (quoting Bowen again here, can you really tell me that HE is biased?), because of incidents such as Deir Yassin and so forth.
Exactly, history is about fact- but yours seem to be highly confused. I am providing you with proof here.
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
@thegreatnoor - Which proof? does your words equle truth? don't be mistaken. I can answer you back with the same "This is one of the many untruths about the situation". my words are valid and being supported by history books. History can be twisted easily as you see with holocause denial industry. So why do you give a hand to the twisting of history?Did i deny Deir Yassin? can you deny the 1921 massacre? the 1929? Gush Ezion Massacre? Zefat? Haddasa? Mount scopus?
0kcomputer 1 year ago
@0kcomputer I never said you denied it; I am merely pointing out what you fail to see- why the Palestinians fled in the first place.
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
@0kcomputer What on earth are you talking about? There was no "Jewish Nakba" in the Arab countries. The closest thing I can think to a "Jewish Nakba" is the Holocaust, and that was most certainly NOT caused by Arabs. As we have already established, Arabs and Jews (most of which who lived in Arab countries considered themselves to be Arab Jews, as they considered the Arabic culture to be their own) lived harmoniously together.
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
@thegreatnoor - u see? Good to know new things. Check it out on the web and come back to me with your conclusions. And I beg to differ about the "harmoniously together". There's some minor truth in it, but you tend to choose to have a selective sight. For example, between 1948-1967 there was no access to the Jews to its holiest place. Can you honestly say that Israel forbid Christians or Muslims to get to their holiest places? (Except for what u hear in al jazeera).
0kcomputer 1 year ago
@0kcomputer As a matter of fact (to your last question), YES. And might I add, during 48-67 East Jerusalem was under Jordanian control- the Jordanians, who had secretly collaborated with the Jews to make sure that the Palestinians wouldn't get their own state. During that time, East Jerusalem was not under the control of the Palestinians- rather, the Jordanians. And I don't respect what they did, before you start putting words in my mouth.
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
@thegreatnoor - we talked about Arab world and Jordan is an arab state. The narative about "Palestinian nation" was yet to be created between 1948-1967.
indicate preciesly what you mean to say about the comparison between the Jordanian policy of access to the holy places, the palstinians propoganda of AL AQSA and the israeli policy.
Please be honest. we don't want to lose each other respect.
after that, let us talk about the Hamas convention.
0kcomputer 1 year ago
@0kcomputer We have talked about the Arab world, and I have also told you before that I think many Arab governments are corrupt. But that is besides the point. King Abdullah of Jordan had specifically set out to prevent the Palestinians from getting their own state, and he had the help of Jewish Zionists to do this.
And what is it specifically you want to talk about Hamas?
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
@0kcomputer Israel does not let Muslims visit Al-Aqsa mosque, which is the third holiest place for them. Even the Palestinians living in the occupied West Jerusalem cannot visit it unless they are over a certain age, don't quote me on this because I'm not certain, but it's about 60- which, considering the average life expectancy of Arabs being 70, is quite high!
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
@thegreatnoor- The occupied west? What is in your view occupied? All of Israel? Just Jerusalem? Jaffa? Tel aviv? Lod? What else?
I think your answer will shorten a bit this debate.
0kcomputer 1 year ago
@0kcomputer Occupied territories: East Jerusalem, practically all of the West Bank, the Golan Heights. These regions are internationally recognised to be occupied and when Israel builds upon them it is illegal and even America recognises this.
And what do I mean about the comparison with the Jordanian policy to the Israeli one? I'll tell you this first: I don't know much about what Jordan DID during the years it controlled the West Bank, so I don't know how (un)/restrictive it has been.
TBC
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
@0kcomputer However, I do know that if a Muslim wanted to visit Jerusalem to visit al Aqsa that they would be denied entry. Let me give you an example, not completely relevent to Al Aqsa, but still relevent to Muslims wanting to travel into Israel. I know of a Muslim woman who was studing at Harvard University. She wanted to visit Tel Aviv to do work on her thesis, not participate in any political activism. Guess what? She was detained at the airport for hours and then denied entry into Israel.
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
@thegreatnoor =It is 45 and you know exactly when and where they are limited. (Or maybe you don't know or willing to know)
What do you have to say about the Palestinian propaganda that Jerusalem is not holy to the Jews and that history proves that there is no connection between the Jews and Jerusalem?
BTW, you keep ignoring my questions and remarks from the last post. There's no reason to continue in this way.
0kcomputer 1 year ago
@0kcomputer Okay, I correct myself. There was no "mass migration" of Arabs in 45.
I am familiar with certain propogandas from both ends; you yourself seem to be a victim of Israeli propoganda. The difference is that I do not condone Palestinian ones which say that there is no connection between the Jews and Jerusalem.
So, in answer to your question, what do I have to say about it? I don't agree with it, but that doesn't nullify anything.
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
@thegreatnoor -Doesn't it nullufy anything? And I am a victim of the Israeli propaganda?
That is the essence of it. The connection between Israel and the Jews is essential for understanding the conflict. This is why, so many in the Arab world, many from the Palestinians, spend so much time and money to refute the connection between Israel and the Jews, the denial of the holocaust and so on.
0kcomputer 1 year ago
Comment removed
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
@thegreatnoor - Can't find my legs and hands here due to the many posts. You can send messages to my inbox here, and I continue to discuss about these issues. One thing before hand. Be more modest about the knowledge u present here, as if they were the utter truth. Check WHO criticizes Benny Morris, the competent authority of this conflict, (until last years, by all historians), b4 u read the content. Despite the fundamental disagreement, I respect your "bona fide" - very rare in this platform.
0kcomputer 1 year ago
@0kcomputer and I am not ignoring any questions. If anything, you are ignoring many of the comments which I am making; kind of like selective responding.
If you feel that there are questions that I haven't answered clearly enough for you please, bring them up, and I'd happily clarify anything you need to know on by behalf.
thegreatnoor 1 year ago
LEGALLY ISRAEL HAS NO RIGHT TO TAKE LAND OF THE PALESTINIANS. JEWS RELY ON THE BIBLE(A BOOK THATS MORE THAN 2000 YEARS OLD). THEY SAY THE HOLY LAND IS OUR LAND(WHICH IS REALLY UNBELIEVABLE THAT PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT).BUT OK LET'S GIVE THE JEWS THEIR LAND.WHY ARE THEY KEEP TAKING LAND AND KEEP THROWING PALESTINIANS OUT THEIR HOMES.WHY CAN'T JUST LET THE PALESTINIANS LIVE IN PEACE?MORE THEN 1MILLION PEOPLE LIVE IN GAZA?THAT'S 1/3 OF iSRAEL POPULATION AND LOOK AT THE SIZE OF EACH COUNTRY!FREE GAZA
karimothadon 1 year ago
@karimothadon
what was legal for Arabs to launch a war for portions of land which were acquired by legal means by jews?
this is more logical for muslims to rely on fairy tale told by Muhammad "journey to far mosque" to claim proprietorship on temple mount?
was it logical to blocked the golden gate out of fear that Jewish prophesy could be real? or in 1920 to inflame Arabs against the jews over their presence in the wailing war?
ygalg 1 year ago
@ygalg WHAT YOU'VE JUST SAID HERE IS BS. THAT STILL DOESN'T JUSTIFY WHY ISRAEL KEEPS THROWING INNOCENT CHILDREN AND WOMEN OU OF THEIR HOMES.BUT ISRAEL IS SIGHNIN IT'S OWN DEATHPENALTY.ISRAEL IS LOSING THE SUPPORT OF A%ERICA FOR A REASON.AMERICA SEES TROUGH THE EYES OF THEIR PRESIDENT OBAMA THAT ISRAEL IS TAKING THIS A LIL TOO FAR.I'M NOT SAYING TO DEPORTATE EVERY JEW?I WANT TO COUNTRIES:ISRAEL AND PALESTINE.BUT SOON ISRAEL WILL HAVE NO LAND IF THEY KEEP UP LIKE THIS
FREE GAZA
karimothadon 1 year ago
@karimothadon
not BS my dear. what I wrote accordingly to historical records.
your reply however is gibberish.
ygalg 1 year ago
@ygalg and you still cant find an answer to my questions. That shows that Israel has nothing to justify it's terrorism
NOTHING
and you know it's: FREE GAZA
karimothadon 1 year ago
@karimothadon
Free gaza!
Thumbs up
PeaceandUnity1972 1 year ago
@karimothadon Yes but the fact is the people in Gaza and the west bank are Arabs. If we look at Jordan, Syria, etc we get a real picture of the land and population comparison. Jews are the minority Arabs are the clear majority in the Area who own much more land than Israel.
Palestinians want all of Israel. Israel would love for Palestinians to "live in peace" but they refuse to stop fighting til they have ALL of Israel. They are not peaceful people to "let live in peace". Let Jews live in peace
IBeatUpThugs 1 year ago
@IBeatUpThugs
this man is killing me! OF COURSE THE MAJORITY IS ARAB BECAUSE THAT LAND IS OWNED BY ARABS AND STOLEN FROM THEM BY YOURE ZIONIST GOVERNMENT! if you cant even get that in you re retarded head STOP TALKING. And of course the palestinians want theire own land back what now is called israel. They are PEACEFULL people, look at history. When the nazi s in Germany were killing youre kind the palestinians welcomed youre people in Palestina. ANd look how you rewarded them for doing so
PeaceandUnity1972 1 year ago
@PeaceandUnity1972 Jews are from the middle east dummy. All Jews are genetically traced to the middle east. Jews lived in Israel for 4000 years. Arab Muslims conquest Jerusalem in the 7th century by murdering thousands of Jews and Christians there. Like Islam conquests the whole middle east, they are not indigenous to Palestine.
Palestinians and the other Arabs attacked Jews fleeing Nazis, and tried to stop them from immigrating. If they were peaceful they would all live together in Israel now.
IBeatUpThugs 1 year ago
@IBeatUpThugs
You freaking moron, you talk about islam conquests in the whole middle east? ok.
The world was in WAR in those days you freak.
Palestinians and the other arabs attacked jews because they were committing Genocide in the region ( because theire intention was to turn the people in the region into refugees so they could build theire own country that was first a british mandate) They didnt attack jews fleeing becuase they were jews!!!!so .... you are AGAIN spreading lies.
PeaceandUnity1972 1 year ago
@PeaceandUnity1972 Not the whole world. Jews were farmers in Medina and took care of Muhammad and refrained from fighting, before Muhammad robbed, exiled and brutally massacred them.
Holocaust refugees poorly armed committed genocide in pre-48 Israel? WTF are you on about? Palestinian Grand Mufti was meeting with Hitler himself. That is the REAL genocide. Never been a genocide of Palestinians ever. Stop talking silly propaganda.
IBeatUpThugs 1 year ago
@IBeatUpThugs
jews were meeting hitler also bcoz they wanted the british out of the holyland, btw jews sponserd hitler to power, the moneyhandler was j.w bush`s grandfather.
u wannan know what zionists are?
pls read TALMUD, and PROTOCOL OF ELDERS OF ZION.
desiman1 1 year ago
@IBeatUpThugs ok, let's take an example which is actual. The peace negotiations:
WHO BLOWED THEM UP AGAIN? YEP, ISRAEL BECAUSE THEY STILL ARE CONQURING LAND LIKE WE'RE LIVING IN MIDLLE AGES HAHAHA
COMMON IF YOU DON'T ACCEPT THAT ISRAEL IS WRONG, IT'S NO USE DO GET IN DISCUSSION WITH A MORRON. THEY WILL LISTEN THE HARD WAY.
AND STOP GIVING THOSE STUPID COMMENTS CAUSE YOU ONLY MAKING A FOOL OUT OF YOURSELF REALLY
FREE GAZA
karimothadon 1 year ago
@karimothadon Islam conquered the middle east and North Africa (which they are not indigenous to).
These discussions have no point when they all stem from your stupidity and racism. Arabs are colonialists and finally got checked. So now they cry like faggots and beg like bums to the world. Most people are not gullible enough to believe the Palestinians con game. Arabs own 99.8% of the land already. They are like a man with a huge house and BMW going downtown to bag for money.
Arab Shnorers!
IBeatUpThugs 1 year ago
@IBeatUpThugs why can't you just answer?
racist i guess i am
but are obama and the leaders of the europenian union also racist because they do'nt support israel's way of handling things?
but what are you? that's another question
it's getting hot for israel now
this discussion ends here
karimothadon 1 year ago
So imagine yourself if Arabs whould win 1948 war
What they should do with jews ?
At least 100% transfer
What is the reason of 1948 War?
Arabs did not accept 2 state UN decision and begun agression
3 years before 1948 in 1945 millons of Germans were transfered from Cheh Rep
And even from German lands which were passed to Russia and Poland
It means in thouse times transfer was legitim agressor punishment
where is no problem of German refugees asking to come back
1948 is not 2010
davidya72 1 year ago
and when exactly in history,an independet arab mulsim state,that was distiniguish from egypt and syria,and its name was *palestine* and its capital was jerusalem ever existed?
seriusly,i looked in many books.i couldnt find a *palestinian* king,coin,nothing.it was a samll and neglected part of many muslim empiers.its mulsims were either beduim or falachin?what *palestinians*? maybe shamim(syrians).only jews ever called themself palestinians.
odokokan 1 year ago
there are several main mistakes in historical interpretation:
First, he keeps talking about the defeat of large arab countries by a small community. which is simply untrue ... the Hagana outnumbered the arab armies (90,000 to 60,000). Also, when he talks about how Israel viewed the palestinians there and that they knew they existed ...He makes it seem that the jews were dealing with a minority. In 1948, the jewish population is Palestine represented about 30% persent of the population.
khateeb85 1 year ago
end of story. it is not a controversial subject. There is a plethora of documented quotes from zionist leaders (Gurion,Sharon, Netanahu, Barack) that exemplify both racist and aparthied tendencies
maxfedor1 1 year ago
On 30 November 1973, the United Nations General Assembly opened for signature and ratification the International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid (ICSPCA)[1] It defined the crime of apartheid as "inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them."
maxfedor1 1 year ago
he crime of apartheid is defined by the 2002 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court as inhumane acts of a character similar to other crimes against humanity "committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime."
maxfedor1 1 year ago
For those who are serious about studying this conflict: see a devastating reply by Peter Bouckaert to the biased claims of Benny Morris-in New Republic, 19 June 2006. Peter is the Emergencies Director for Human Rights Watch, one of the largest and well respected mainstream human rights organizations in the world.
bths87 1 year ago
Benny Morris rips apart both of them. Hands down
edanhollombe 2 years ago
I'd like to see a debate with Finkelstein and Morris
shoplifter2 2 years ago
many things in the Israeli archives still closed since 1948 and no one opens them !!!
thugyheadbanger 2 years ago
There no mystery about 1948, People who lived then are still alive, There are newspapers from then. Ope book.
kreplach2 2 years ago 4
israel is just such a fuck up country. Why do the palestinean have to pay for the crimes comitted to the israel during the holocoust. I would do as the palestinean did if someone would want to occupy my country. Everyone would. Maybe israel will undestand if someday another country occupies them by satanic force as they are currently doing. Peace to the middle east.
tonchit 2 years ago
The war began in 1920 when the Grand Mufti al-Husseini stated killing Jews in the streets.
kreplach2 2 years ago
Actually the British manufactured the conflict by creating Arab Nationalism to broaden WW1.
genYprogressive 2 years ago
I dont know if thatys the correct term. Encouraged fits too.
kreplach2 2 years ago
3:50 "But all the Western archives, especially the Israeli archives" - that's too much...
Psykocracy 2 years ago
Comment removed
IdoG262 2 years ago
Most civilians were not killed in UN facilities, that's wrong. Irael claimed that the majority of attacks against civilian facilities took place because Hamas used them for some sort of military activity (this does not have to be rocket launching).
The whole with White Phospherous is conterversiol. It is common around the world to use Phospherous in order to mark targets, etc. There are few evidence suggesting Israel used it - in civilian areas- with the intent to kill.
rplechnin 2 years ago
Human Rights Watch alredy destroyed this myth that they only used white Phosperous to mark targets with 4 examples.
1. An Israeli arms company makes non- lethal smoke shells, they could have used these insted.
2 If they wanted to mark a target they would have set them off on the ground.
3. There were no IDF troops any where near the placed hit with white phospherous.
4. The IDF had GPS to know the locations of all the targeted areas.
ARGUMENT OBLITERATED
genYprogressive 2 years ago 2
I am sure you respect the International Red Cross, so I'll quote the head of its mines-arms unit : "In some of the strikes in Gaza it's pretty clear that phosphorus was used, but it's not very unusual to use phosphorus to create smoke or illuminate a target. We have no evidence to suggest it's being used in any other way."
rplechnin 2 years ago
The International Red Cross made one observation but the fact still remains that hundreds were burned alive by WP. Israel also used experamental wepons like fletchet shell anti-personel munitions intended to destroy internal organs so the victom cannot be operated on.
Israeli Appologists have been making excuses for Israel's brutality since the Lavon Affair and the U.S.S. Liberty incident.
genYprogressive 2 years ago
This observation that the IDF's use of WP did not break the rules of war was made by several other human rights organizations, including Btselem. Indeed even Goldstone's report concured that the use of WP did not break the rules of war. Many say that although it was not illegal, the use of WP in Gaza was careless. Well, if houndrads of people really died from WP (like u said) I would agree with such assertions, however houndrads of people did not die of WP. Pls check the facts first.
rplechnin 2 years ago
A real problem is how you frame the issue. You say that there were no rules of war that were broken.
What happened in Gaza did not fit the definition of a war. When Britian was attacked by the IRA who were more dangerous than HAMASS. If the British had carpet bombed Belfast killed 1400 and had a 100 to 1 kill ratio and said we were only targeting the terrorists that were hidden among the civilians everyone would laugh and those who ordered the attacks would have been in jail for war crimes.
genYprogressive 2 years ago
Well we don't know what would have happened in this situation. We can't play "if" games . I do assume however that if the British army had invaded Belfast and encounered resistance or found tons of tactical weapons hidden in Catholic churches or found Vietcong-like tunnels dug through out Northern Ireland, u would see a lot of dead Irish civilians. Besides, the number of British civilans killed in WW2 by Germans was much lower than the amount of German civilans killed by British or Americans.
rplechnin 2 years ago
They used it from helicopters, if Im not mistaken. That could be watched all over YouTube.
Im not taking any sides, though.
besmb2105 2 years ago
The Economic blockade of Gaza was in effect before HAMAS was elected to office. They could easliy stop wepons smuggling without a economic blockade.
There were people starving and dying from lack of medical supplys in Gaza before this. Tell me, how can a blood bag or vaccine or food be used as a wepon aginst Israeli civilians?
If there was no blockade there would be no tunnles in Gaza.
genYprogressive 2 years ago
Gaza is just fine. Google Gaza market 2009.
kreplach2 2 years ago
your forgetting the PLO executed most of the terrorist attacks in Israel BEFORE hamas was even founded. including suicide bombings
ntheg 2 years ago
None of that would have happened if Israel would simply give back the land that alredy belongs to the Palistinians.
That debate is over.
And it seems that you have forgot that Hamas was created by the Mossad by trying to split the PLO.
genYprogressive 2 years ago
Disinformation not debate.
Give back what land? Be Specific
Hamas was given aid in 1983 to counter the PLO inflence. It was a social aid organization. After Oslo it developed a militant wing that took up the goal of Islamizing Palestine and driving out the Jews,
kreplach2 2 years ago
wow what a load of crap. Hamas was created by the Mossad? have you ever heard of the Hamas charter?
ntheg 2 years ago
The IDF planned this in early 2008, they say so on there website. Israel admits that HAMAS not only fired no rockets during the cease fire period but they tried to stop lone rocket attacks. This even though Israel broke the cease fire agreement on Nov 4,
There were over 1400 Gazans dead and 14 Israelis killed (3 by friendly fire) 100 to 1 ratio. People with rockets that do no more damage than a pipe bomb vs The IDF.
Would you use a sledgehammer to kill a fly in your house?
genYprogressive 2 years ago 2
@genYprogressive more moderate methods have been used against hamas and proved useless.
what do you israel to do? magic?
ImTehWord 1 year ago
@ImTehWord What I want Israel to do is get off the land that does not belong to them.
genYprogressive 1 year ago
@genYprogressive this isnt gonna happen...
whose land is this? palestinians'? lol.
ImTehWord 1 year ago
@ImTehWord I was talking about the Palistinians land that Israel is illeagally building colonies on.
genYprogressive 1 year ago
@genYprogressive ah, you mean the west bank.
it isnt illegal since israel captured it from JORDAN (which took it over after 48 war) in 49, and this is why israel bulding colonies there isnt exactly illegal.
ImTehWord 1 year ago
@genYprogressive uhm, i meant israel took it from jordan in 67.
ImTehWord 1 year ago
@ImTehWord The Worl