No. No strawman. Watch the video. Read Thomas Aquinas's original writings. It is perfectly clear what God he was referring to, as it is with Craig.
And I'll disagree with what you say physicists say. The (classical) time that we know, MAY have begun at the big bang, but that does not mean that all time began there.
Current tools can only take us back so far, and everything else is a guess or hypothesis.
Also, a cause cannot exist both out of time and within time.
@tommy605 TAquinas and Craig may say that the KC argument points to the Christian God but the argument ITSELF DOES NOT. lol So, yeah you attacked a strawman w/o even realizing it.
Okay, you disagree with what the physicists say because I guess you must be a physicist yourself.
PROVE a cause cannot exist both out of time and within time.
@megawolf7 Look at the history of the argument. It is clear what God/creator it is meant for. The argument in the three lines can be taken to mean ANY creator/cause but that was not the intent when it was written. No strawman.
Not what I said. I said I disagreed with what u said physicists say. Physicists, the majority of them, do not claim to KNOW that time began. They say that time as we know it began.
Physics prove that. If there was a creator, he's no longer relevant and around.
@tommy605 Who cares about the history of the argument. So what if Christians in history have used it. NOWHERE in the argument does it claim that the creator in the Christian God, of the Muslim god, or the Zoroastrian god, etc. NOWHERE. PERIOD.
Time as we know just IS time. lol You cannot have an infinite amount of events into the past, i.e. "time". Time is finite. Period.
God is the best explanation of all the data no matter how much you don't want Him to exist.
@megawolf7 No, God is NOT the best answer. It's adding another step. What is the cause of God? You get to an infinite regression when you ask that question. But special pleading makes God an exception to that rule. If God always was, why can't the universe always have been? In some form or another? God is the worst explanations to that question because it doesn't answer anything. It just stops all questions without looking further for the real answers. A god may exist. The Christian God does not
@tommy605 You already have the answer to "what caused God?". Nothing caused God because is is not a contingent being. An eternal being has no cause. Yes, the Christian God exists and only the Christian God exists. However the Kalam Cosmological argument does not reveal this, this is deduced by other means.
Physicists such as Alexander Vilenken, Arvin Borde, and Alan Guth say that the universe had a beginning and time began with it. Thus,time did not always exist and the cause/creator MUST be timeless or eternal.
The Kalam Cosmological argument was never meant to show that it was the Christian God who created the universe so you're attacking a straw man. The notion that the Christian God created the universe comes from other arguments.
I will disagree. Who created God is just as valid a question as who created the universe. To assume that God could always have been and not allow the for the same possibility of a universe does nothing to answer the question. In fact, adding a God to it, only adds an unneeded additional step.
What we can prove (mostly) is how old the universe is in it's current state. Determining where that came from and how is only speculation, plus does not do anything to prove it's the christian God at cause
@tommy605 It's not "assumed" God has always been, it is deduced. Why? Because time is an aspect of creation and did not exist until the universe began. Thus, the creator/cause is without time must be eternal.
@megawolf7 "Because time is an aspect of creation and did not exist until the universe began. " How do you know that to be true? Even scientists don't know that to be true. All they can measure to is parts of a second after the big bang. Time and space very well could have existed prior to the big bang.
And even if that's true, even if all three points are conceded as fact, that still does not prove it to be the Judeo-Christian God as that cause over the thousands of other possible Gods.
No. No strawman. Watch the video. Read Thomas Aquinas's original writings. It is perfectly clear what God he was referring to, as it is with Craig.
And I'll disagree with what you say physicists say. The (classical) time that we know, MAY have begun at the big bang, but that does not mean that all time began there.
Current tools can only take us back so far, and everything else is a guess or hypothesis.
Also, a cause cannot exist both out of time and within time.
tommy605 3 months ago
@tommy605 TAquinas and Craig may say that the KC argument points to the Christian God but the argument ITSELF DOES NOT. lol So, yeah you attacked a strawman w/o even realizing it.
Okay, you disagree with what the physicists say because I guess you must be a physicist yourself.
PROVE a cause cannot exist both out of time and within time.
megawolf7 3 months ago
@megawolf7 Look at the history of the argument. It is clear what God/creator it is meant for. The argument in the three lines can be taken to mean ANY creator/cause but that was not the intent when it was written. No strawman.
Not what I said. I said I disagreed with what u said physicists say. Physicists, the majority of them, do not claim to KNOW that time began. They say that time as we know it began.
Physics prove that. If there was a creator, he's no longer relevant and around.
tommy605 3 months ago
@tommy605 Who cares about the history of the argument. So what if Christians in history have used it. NOWHERE in the argument does it claim that the creator in the Christian God, of the Muslim god, or the Zoroastrian god, etc. NOWHERE. PERIOD.
Time as we know just IS time. lol You cannot have an infinite amount of events into the past, i.e. "time". Time is finite. Period.
God is the best explanation of all the data no matter how much you don't want Him to exist.
megawolf7 3 months ago
@megawolf7 No, God is NOT the best answer. It's adding another step. What is the cause of God? You get to an infinite regression when you ask that question. But special pleading makes God an exception to that rule. If God always was, why can't the universe always have been? In some form or another? God is the worst explanations to that question because it doesn't answer anything. It just stops all questions without looking further for the real answers. A god may exist. The Christian God does not
tommy605 3 months ago
@tommy605 You already have the answer to "what caused God?". Nothing caused God because is is not a contingent being. An eternal being has no cause. Yes, the Christian God exists and only the Christian God exists. However the Kalam Cosmological argument does not reveal this, this is deduced by other means.
megawolf7 3 months ago
Physicists such as Alexander Vilenken, Arvin Borde, and Alan Guth say that the universe had a beginning and time began with it. Thus,time did not always exist and the cause/creator MUST be timeless or eternal.
The Kalam Cosmological argument was never meant to show that it was the Christian God who created the universe so you're attacking a straw man. The notion that the Christian God created the universe comes from other arguments.
megawolf7 3 months ago
I will disagree. Who created God is just as valid a question as who created the universe. To assume that God could always have been and not allow the for the same possibility of a universe does nothing to answer the question. In fact, adding a God to it, only adds an unneeded additional step.
What we can prove (mostly) is how old the universe is in it's current state. Determining where that came from and how is only speculation, plus does not do anything to prove it's the christian God at cause
tommy605 3 months ago
@tommy605 It's not "assumed" God has always been, it is deduced. Why? Because time is an aspect of creation and did not exist until the universe began. Thus, the creator/cause is without time must be eternal.
megawolf7 3 months ago
@megawolf7 "Because time is an aspect of creation and did not exist until the universe began. " How do you know that to be true? Even scientists don't know that to be true. All they can measure to is parts of a second after the big bang. Time and space very well could have existed prior to the big bang.
And even if that's true, even if all three points are conceded as fact, that still does not prove it to be the Judeo-Christian God as that cause over the thousands of other possible Gods.
tommy605 3 months ago