the thing about test is most are multiple chose so you of a 25% chance to get it right if you guess. I guessed on an entire test and got a 92%, if i did that an the marimba? I would be in HUGE trouble. this director showed the world why the grading system fails.
For goodness sake! TheEdge04 and DarkwingScooter, you're both right. I'm one of the musicians that did a similar test as this during one of our concerts. If the ensemble is together like most are, then they are able to 'feel' music the same way, or close enough to make no difference after one or two rehearsals. The definitions of Forte and Piano, and the grey area in between known as Mezzo change as the music does. The music has a certain feel to it, then the musicians reciprocate in kind.
Thank you for how encouraging this is. I played in band for 6 years as well as participating in choir. My teachers have been some of the most influential people in my life.
They just did what they should've done the first time. Furthermore, music like this is an ensemble effort. As I tell my students. If there are 150 of you on the field, and you each only make 1 mistake, that's 150 mistakes. Ensembles aren't graded individually, but as a whole. Now if the entire ensemble only makes 1 or 2 mistakes, then you have your 'A'.
Nice Job. Some of you folks are so dense it saddens me. This was a simple message meant to encourage people in education to strive higher. Thats all. No political statement, just strive for move than "what's on the page." sheesh...
While I agree with the overall sentiment, his portrayal was a bit disingenuous. The first time was NOT played correctly. It was played at mezzo forte, essentially without dynamic contrast. By claiming that the last time was played by some miracle of emotion and thoughtfulness with a connection to the "heart" is just lame artsy political speech for playing the correct dynamics and articulations to the their fullest extent. They didn't go above and beyond. Their score didn't exceed 100%.
@TheEdge04 Nonsense. There is no such thing as "correct" dynamics that can be graded. The logic is internal to the performance itself so the concept of "fullest extent" is an lame artsy political speech for justifying an estimation you cannot hope to define externally.
What is the correct "heart" to put in a piece by Bach with no indicated dynamics or articulation, or a piece by Boulez that is replete with it?
@DarkwingScooter Of course you can judge dynamics, don't be foolish. Are the piano's soft; are the forte's loud? When the difference between your loud and soft moments all fall within the mezzo or medium category, you're doing it wrong. During that first run they attempted dynamic contrast and failed, yet the director stated it was played 100% correctly. He was wrong.
@DarkwingScooter The issue I have is with the claim that the dynamics on the final run are a result of their "thoughtfulness." You and I both know that with an ensemble this size, the last thing you want is to leave dynamics up to interpretation. You would have 60 people doing what their own emotions were telling them to do and it would be chaos. People feel music differently.
@TheEdge04 More than anything else dynamics are the product of thoughtful musicianship. THAT is what you heard the last time-round and what the conductors point was.
There is no need to pre-rehearse thoughtless playing, let me assure you of that. And there is no need to fake the readily appreciable difference between considered playing and a slapdash literal interpretation of the score.
@DarkwingScooter There is no doubt that the final result was achieved through careful rehearsal of an agreed upon approach by the conductor and not some miraculous event of everyone feeling the music together.
@TheEdge04 I cannot disagree with you more. Dynamics are just that, dynamic. There are places marked piano that need to be played forte on certain instrument to match the prevailing dynamic and vice versa. Add to that the fact that timbre plays a far greater role in perceived dynamic than mere loudness/softness. That is why musicians are fond of saying that forte does not mean loud (but strong) and piano not soft (but smooth).
@DarkwingScooter LOL You could not be anymore wrong. I've performed and conducted at the highest level. Good luck with your line of thinking. I'm sure your ensembles will be craptacular snooze fests with literally tens of people coming to see you!
@TheEdge04 I have had a fair few standing ovations in over-capacity concert halls myself, I never said that you needn't play the written dynamics.
What I am saying is that if you are ONLY playing the written dynamics you get what was heard in example one. Example two was the result thoughtful passion and commitment, not simply adding dynamics.
In no score apart from Boulez are dynamics indicated remotely precisely enough to yield that result.
@DarkwingScooter (Part 1) It’s thinking like yours that is the reason why orchestras all over are going bankrupt and so many school music programs are in such poor shape. The educator in me can’t let this slide any longer. Let’s start with the basics: You stated that forte means strong and piano means smooth. Right here you have errors in logic. Piano and Forte are opposites. Let’s test your logic:
@DarkwingScooter (Part 2) The opposite of Strong is Weak, not smooth. The opposite of Smooth is Rough, not strong. So in both cases you are wrong. If you cannot grasp this simple concept then it is no wonder you are having trouble understanding. While there are times I might want my ensemble to play rough or weak, it is surely not the meaning of the numerous ‘f’ and ‘p’ marks found in most music.
@DarkwingScooter (Part 3) The piano instrument used to be called the “Piano-Forte” meaning “soft-loud”, showcasing the range of the instrument. Before this keyboard instruments such as the harpsichord could only play one dynamic, and yes, by dynamic they meant volume level, not the timbre that you claim it means. Timbre deals with quality of sound which is independent from dynamics, which is the varying degrees of loud and soft.
@TheEdge04 Lol, you assign some simplistic interpretation of a word and then harrangue me for saying that interpretation is wrong because I don't use it?
When did the terms "forte" and "piano" become common currency in musical literature? Do you even know? Have not heard of the haut/bas or fort/ douce distinctions? What does the word "soft" actually mean? What about the spatial implication?
If you are just thinking of of reducing the amplitude as on an oscilloscope you are not doing dynamics.
@DarkwingScooter (Part 4) That is why we use 2 different words because they mean 2 different things. Furthermore you stated that “dynamics are the product of thoughtful musicianship.” No they’re not. I can teach a 5 year old when to play soft and when to play loud. When he repeats it that doesn’t mean he/she is a thoughtful musician. It just means they did what they were told to do. Whether you like it or not, that’s what most music in the ensemble setting comes down to.
@DarkwingScooter (Part 5) Doing what you’re told to do. In orchestral/wind ensemble literature you almost never have a piece of music void of dynamic markings. When people play piano it’s because the sheet of paper told them to. If the piece happens to lack dynamics and the conductor decides to put some in, either through verbal cues or through his/her conducting, the ensemble is still doing what they’re told to do.
@TheEdge04 If you have never seen a piece void of dynamic markings you clearly have not been introduced to some of the composers in the Bach family.
I also didn't say that players can do all kinds of different things, what I said was that ensemble is not merely a case of everyone doing the same thing, that ensemble is the product of people thinking in MUSICAL unison. Sometimes you need to play the third of the chord softer than indicated to get a balanced chord...
@DarkwingScooter (Part 6) You CANNOT have musicians acting independently and “feeling” their own version of the music. It creates “dirt” in the sound. Sometimes it’s ok to take cues from the principle player on things like where to begin a crescendo, etc.. If you’re sitting 2nd chair and decide to follow your “heart” and begin a crescendo ahead of the principle violin, you will be 1) Reamed by said player and the conductor, and/or 2) Looking for a new job in the morning.
@DarkwingScooter (Part 7) There is a reason why we rehearse. It’s to figure out what we’re going to do with the music and how to play it with each other. 9 times out of 10 that means doing what the conductor wants the music to do. Again, it’s being planned out. You’re being told what to do. It’s choreographed.
@DarkwingScooter (Part 8) Otherwise everyone would just practice by themselves and then we’d get together and have a concert because, ‘don’t worry, they’re all going to “feel” the music the same way and it will be miraculous!’ Give me a break. It would be a disaster. What happened in the video above was planned out. Rehearsed. The first time was not played “100% correctly” like the director said.
@DarkwingScooter (Part 9) . It had almost zero dynamic contrast even though they attempted dynamics. This is not an opinion. It’s testable. Bring out a decibel reader and see how it barely moves a notch. Sadly most school programs fit into this category. They’re range of dynamics makes people yawn. To be truly great, you must have the softest pianissimo and the loudest fortissimo. It creates true dynamic contrast. And for the last time, YES, THAT MEANS VOLUME.
@DarkwingScooter (Part 10) The reason people pay $100+ to see an orchestra live is to be excited!!! Not bored by cheap imitations that play mezzo forte for 90 minutes. I’ve seen many groups where the director does as you stated and tells them to play what they feel even where dynamic markings are not listed. It’s a mess. That’s not what ensemble is. Ensemble is a group working together towards a common goal.
@DarkwingScooter (Part 11) You cannot possibly be together when you have 9 cello each playing a different dynamic or swelling in different places. Whether it was written or not, someone had to show the ensemble in the above video where to play loud and where to play soft. They did not come to some sort of psychic agreement while playing with each other live on that stage, that this is how it goes. Results came from cues and planning.
@TheEdge04 Speaking of Bach, how much time do you think do think he spent going through details like you describe when he wrote a new Cantata every week? His orchestra must have been a mess. His harpsichord playing a dull simulcra of modern piano's (lol, then you never heard a harpsichord played well).
Orchestra's are not the model for classical music, they are the outcome of a particular Romantic vision of it. They are little more than money sucking cultural history machines nowadays.
@DarkwingScooter LOL! Oh, you're one of those guys. Good luck in mediocrity and never understanding why people just don't "get you." It's safe to say I'll never see you on tour or in one of my ensembles. We can see people like you coming from a mile away. You're what's wrong in classical music today.
@TheEdge04 You are the one that is claiming that it is ONLY dynamics that made the difference in the sense of playing what was notated.
THAT is a mediocre position, because dynamics is far more extensive phenomenon than can ever conceivably be notated. Not even Boulez scores only capture a small portion of what is really going on with dynamics.
If your interpretation were correct a Midi interpretation would be the same if not better than a human one.
@DarkwingScooter LOL! You will never realize how clueless you are. You will one day reflect on your life and question why you never made it, and blame it on others for not taking notice of your greatness. You will never realize that you were the problem all along.
@DarkwingScooter Nope, I am the one that creates fantastic sounding ensembles and puts butts in the seats while laughing at guys like you that don't get how it works.
@TheEdge04 On the internet we are all hero's, never forget. I myself have walked on Mars numerous times and wrestled several Bengal tigers to the ground. If you don't believe me just Google my real name: "Ernest Hemingway".
Oh, yes I forgot to mention I faked my own death and am now a sprightly 110 years old...
@TheEdge04 if you're going to say someone's wrong in their point of view, at least give a reason as to why their wrong, instead of bashing and insulting their way of thinking. It makes your statement of "performing and conducting at the highest level" totally unbelievable.
If meant to be a condemnation of the entire American education system (and I'm not sure that it was but the video's description suggests otherwise), then the conductor's demonstration sadly perpetuates a harmful stereotype, ignoring the many teachers (in both the academics and the arts) who work tirelessly to hold their students to high, uncompromising standards regardless of their state's base-level curricular expectations.
I think what he's trying to say is that the majority of our country's teachers are great, they've just been shackled by programs like No Child Left Behind that forces them to teach to a test rather than formulate what curriculum is best for their students. It's why countries like Finland don't have any standardized tests at all, yet are tops in the world in educational proficiency when they graduate.
@alep85 I hope you're right, but if so he left that message open to misinterpretation. Your comparison to Finland, however, may be apples-to-oranges. You put a different student body in and you're likely to get different results out.
This video is great! I always encourage my students to give 110% effort in my music classes. This video will be added to my googlesite, so that parents also understand the level that i expect from thier children!
Some of my students could not care less if what they are playing is correct or not. After some abysmal sight-reading where they were not even trying, we showed them this video. Afterward, they sounded like a different band. We did nothing to tell them how to play their instruments better, but seeing this video helped them see why they have to try.
What I take away from it as a former music educator, is not that we demand, or even expect, perfection. But that we must stop accepting mediocrity and strive for perfection (excellence). Perfection is unattainable, but still a worthy goal. I never told my students, "I expect perfection." What I did say, however, was, "I expect your best." What better way to do your best than to strive for perfection?
I didn't verbalize that very well, but I think my meaning is pretty clear.
What I take away from it as a former music educator, is not that we demand, or even expect, perfection. But that we must stop accepting mediocrity and strive for perfection (excellence). Perfection is unattainable, but still a worthy goal. I never told my students, "I expect perfection." What I did say, however, was, "I expect your best." What better way to do your best than to strive for perfection?
I didn't verbalize that very well, but I think my meaning is pretty clear.
I sat and watched this with my son. Since he is a musician, he totally "got" the message. A perfect example of mediocrity and why it is unacceptable. Thank you!
I just realized... I played this in middle school and got to be in the lovely flute trio in the middle. Fun memories!
Listen to the full version: It's Shennandoah by Frank Ticheli. I've played a quite a bit of his pieces mostly in middle school, and all of it is beautiful.
No Child Left Behind in our nation would seem like an impressive statistic. To the rest of the world, however, we're One Nation Left Behind. Unfortunately, policy makers get caught up in the numbers that make us (and them) look "good." So the United States ISN'T number one at something?!?!?!
We've got a culture that DEPENDS on rewards but DENIES "failure." On the other hand, those who understand that failure IS NECESSARY to promote growth and learning are rewarded with TRUE success.
Despite what others might say , this is a totally true video . In my classroom , every Friday we do playing tests . A bass player got a 90% , but my teacher asked him to retake it , saying that just an A wasn ' t enough when it came to orchestra . She was the one who brought me to this video . I think the points he makes are generally head-on, and we should all take this lesson into consideration .
Those of us with hearing loss couldn't understand him, and he was too far away to read his lips. Subtitles would be nice, but I guess this is meant for people who can hear.
@xmoopzx Even if these students were given weeks, even months to practice these pieces for a performance, as Dr. Brennan said- every answer that these students need are on the page. The point he is trying to make is what these students are creating OFF the page. It's the application of what they learn in rehearsal for a performance. It's comparing what can be learned in order to pass a test, to what can be learned BEYOND that.
Then why bother giving an example of what the piece sounds like if played with 10% error? Part of his point was the expectation of perfection, which I think is ridiculous in an academic context.
@xmoopzx. Not exactly the case here. These kids received the music about 2-3 weeks before this concert. They did not play together until about 48 hours before the concert. This was one of about 7 songs played under the same process.
As for having the answers ahead of the test, I can only assume that most academic students have textbooks that would have sufficient information to answer the test questions.
I do get your point. I just found it to be an interesting way to demonstrate the message.
@bobdevonshire But what you must understand is having sufficient information to answer test questions is different to having access to the test. It's like, if the students had enough similar musical material to prepare them for sight-reading the piece on performance day. Bottom line is, if they had to sight read, they would probably make a few mistakes.
@xmoopzx I think grading sightreading on accuracy is fine, it's a fair comparison. I think part of the point he's making though is that putting a numerical grade for a rehearsed concert is unreasonable. When a music student gets a grade, it's never based on just sight-reading. For performers, notes are something you take care of at home so you can bring it with you next rehearsal. Good music teachers teach the means to expression in the classroom. Putting grades to expression is a bit pointless.
there's a fundamental mistake in this analogy. The students in this musical ensemble are provided weeks to practice for this particular song, and there will be no differences or surprises on their sheet music on performance day. They're only engaging muscle memory. The equivalent in academia would be to provide the answers to an exam weeks in advance, only then would perfection be expected. Try giving the band a piece to sight-read and see if it still sounds perfect
@xmoopzx do you play an instrument? You statement tells me that you don't. In my school district students receive the music and have a day and half rehearsal and are able to perform the music at the level where it should be performed. Its called good teaching.
@mbcwolverine I play five instruments. And you're missing the point. Students taking examinations don't receive the actual paper even in advance at all, and thus don't have ANY time to practice it. The time of examination is the first time they get to see the exam, so the a fair comparison would be where the students receive the musical piece at the time of performance, i.e . sight-reading, in which case there'd be a few mistakes. Perfection would be a ridiculous demand.
@xmoopzx No. You're missing the point. The big picture that Dr.Brennan is try show is that the education system is setup to "teaching the test." STOP TEACHING THE TEST....If teachers would teach past the test or teach to a higher order of thinking then students would do better on these test. We all know that there can be improvement and that no performance is ever perfect.
@xmoopzx There's no surprises on the sheet music, but getting all the notes right on a page isn't the point. Sheet music is a means to art, not the art itself. Sure, there's the same notes and rhythms on the page, but every musical nuance makes music. There will always be a surprise on performance day because that's what makes a piece unique, beautiful, and , musical. There is no comparison to the rest of academia because the arts are vocative of human emotion, not some silly numerical system.
Ok cool, I'm still a little confused to what your rebuttal is here? My point is that the same expectation of perfection shouldn't be applied to academia...
Good grief! When I was in school, an A was 90 or above, B 80-89, a C 70-79, a D 60-69, an F under 60. Those were the grades, You didn't get graded on a curve. If you passed you passed, and if you failed you failed. What's wrong with education is there is no level standard and everyone is trying so hard not to damage fragile feelings that no on is learning anything! Bring back excellence and demand our children ACHIEVE, not just get passed! Achievement builds self esteem,not hollow praise!
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
Here's the message I heard:
Kids should only be forced to learn about those things for which they have a passion or natural talent, and in which they can be expected to excel; and not simply learn, but deeply internalize and interpret. If (God forbid) they were presented with a subject for which they did not feel that passion, they should be immediately condemned for their good grades, because they just weren't inspired enough. I'm too much of a liberal arts person to buy that.
Kids should not be expected to excel in some area they haven't tried before and for which they haven't yet had a chance to develop a passion. We can make them do it, sure, but we should be more than happy with their less than perfection, because that is the way that the world works. All you have to say is "oh, I am not passionate about that" and you automatically get a pass for your mediocrity.
@SammehDx It's a Youtube rule... no matter how good a video is, there's always someone who looks a "0 dislikes" and has to be the first one to break it.
I once asked my mentor George Parks if I could use some of his inspirational speeches for my High School kids, and he told me to go ask Dr. Tim Lautenhizer if it was ok. I had the opportunity to ask him a few months later and he told me to go ask George Parks for permission.....As educators we all use the same speeches over and over to drive in the same point.
@WMHSBandDirector Is this Dr. Tim conducting? I only got to meet him once - I'm from MD, and i got to meet Dr. Parks a few times. This world needs more people like this. I am happy to report that I have seen some very good young band directors, including friends of mine, that GET it! It makes me happy to know with all the other activities and tv/internet/xbox etc., that there are still (music) teachers who love to teach, and kids to "buy," understand and (want) to get IT too!
I spent my 13 years of elementary/middle/high school learning how to (and succeeding to) beat the system academically and get straight As while being pushed to *learn* musically. I'm now a college-aged musician/actor who's passing all of his theater/music classes with flying colors and struggling to keep his head above failing in academic classes.
When does the 14 yr old music genius come into this discussion as always happen on Youtube and inform us his band played this song only much better? lol
h t t p : / / w w w . y o u t u b e . c o m / w a t c h ? v = m w 4 v q l l 9 c A M
Take out the spaces to see the Jack Stamp video. By the way, he made that speech in 2003, which is more than 6 years ago. Stamp's video has over 100,000 views. He was my band director and my conducting teacher in college. This is definitely from him, not Dr. Brennan.
actually if u wanna get technical, every year, the averages are recalculated higher (average always being 100 so that the average gets higher every year.) so this actually means, people are getting smarter. sure, some schools are better and some are worse, but overall, schools are getting better every year.
Dr. Brennan is directing the PMEA District 7 Band.
There are over 100 kids from high schools from the south central Pennsylvania area. Lancaster, York, Adams, Lebanon, Perry, Dauphin and Perry Counties I believe.
This is almost verbatim a demonstration that Jack Stamp did on a video that was uploaded two years ago. I agree with the message, but it seems like he is trying to make this seem like its his idea. It won't let me post the link but search "Jack Stamp- Why Music Matters" in youtube to find it.,
Just shut up and play. Let the musicians leave the stage and then see how many people want to stick around to hear you talk.
davidcruby 5 days ago
Just shut up and let musicians play. Let the musicians leave the stage and then see how many people want to stick around to hear you talk.
davidcruby 5 days ago
the thing about test is most are multiple chose so you of a 25% chance to get it right if you guess. I guessed on an entire test and got a 92%, if i did that an the marimba? I would be in HUGE trouble. this director showed the world why the grading system fails.
jakowellmo13 3 weeks ago
My all county chorus teacher told me to look this up. BRILLIANT! I'm an alto(:
beautyxlove21 1 month ago
Is there a way that you might be able to email this video to me? I would like to share it with the school I work at during a faculty meeting.
2004AJGarcia 1 month ago
I may get F's, but by God..... I EARNED THEM!!!!
sinner22679 1 month ago
Wow i never realised how horible you could sound with just one mistake.
sanctuaryrulze 1 month ago
For goodness sake! TheEdge04 and DarkwingScooter, you're both right. I'm one of the musicians that did a similar test as this during one of our concerts. If the ensemble is together like most are, then they are able to 'feel' music the same way, or close enough to make no difference after one or two rehearsals. The definitions of Forte and Piano, and the grey area in between known as Mezzo change as the music does. The music has a certain feel to it, then the musicians reciprocate in kind.
HotchkissMa 1 month ago
@guitarslim56 not in classical. accuracy is extremely important.
CarlosSaenzBaritone 2 months ago
Thank you for how encouraging this is. I played in band for 6 years as well as participating in choir. My teachers have been some of the most influential people in my life.
amyeileen4 2 months ago
They just did what they should've done the first time. Furthermore, music like this is an ensemble effort. As I tell my students. If there are 150 of you on the field, and you each only make 1 mistake, that's 150 mistakes. Ensembles aren't graded individually, but as a whole. Now if the entire ensemble only makes 1 or 2 mistakes, then you have your 'A'.
TheEdge04 2 months ago
Nice Job. Some of you folks are so dense it saddens me. This was a simple message meant to encourage people in education to strive higher. Thats all. No political statement, just strive for move than "what's on the page." sheesh...
wls860 2 months ago
In music, accuracy isn't always related to quality. It's possible to be wildly inaccurate, yet still do a good job.
guitarslim56 2 months ago
While I agree with the overall sentiment, his portrayal was a bit disingenuous. The first time was NOT played correctly. It was played at mezzo forte, essentially without dynamic contrast. By claiming that the last time was played by some miracle of emotion and thoughtfulness with a connection to the "heart" is just lame artsy political speech for playing the correct dynamics and articulations to the their fullest extent. They didn't go above and beyond. Their score didn't exceed 100%.
TheEdge04 2 months ago
@TheEdge04 Nonsense. There is no such thing as "correct" dynamics that can be graded. The logic is internal to the performance itself so the concept of "fullest extent" is an lame artsy political speech for justifying an estimation you cannot hope to define externally.
What is the correct "heart" to put in a piece by Bach with no indicated dynamics or articulation, or a piece by Boulez that is replete with it?
DarkwingScooter 2 months ago
@DarkwingScooter Of course you can judge dynamics, don't be foolish. Are the piano's soft; are the forte's loud? When the difference between your loud and soft moments all fall within the mezzo or medium category, you're doing it wrong. During that first run they attempted dynamic contrast and failed, yet the director stated it was played 100% correctly. He was wrong.
TheEdge04 2 months ago
@DarkwingScooter The issue I have is with the claim that the dynamics on the final run are a result of their "thoughtfulness." You and I both know that with an ensemble this size, the last thing you want is to leave dynamics up to interpretation. You would have 60 people doing what their own emotions were telling them to do and it would be chaos. People feel music differently.
TheEdge04 2 months ago
@TheEdge04 More than anything else dynamics are the product of thoughtful musicianship. THAT is what you heard the last time-round and what the conductors point was.
There is no need to pre-rehearse thoughtless playing, let me assure you of that. And there is no need to fake the readily appreciable difference between considered playing and a slapdash literal interpretation of the score.
DarkwingScooter 2 months ago
@TheEdge04 Ensemble is the product of 60 people thinking together, not 60 people happening to scrape their bows at the same time.
When that happens 60 people feel their own unique emotions in unison with everyone else, and the audience as well.
DarkwingScooter 2 months ago
@DarkwingScooter There is no doubt that the final result was achieved through careful rehearsal of an agreed upon approach by the conductor and not some miraculous event of everyone feeling the music together.
TheEdge04 2 months ago
@TheEdge04 I cannot disagree with you more. Dynamics are just that, dynamic. There are places marked piano that need to be played forte on certain instrument to match the prevailing dynamic and vice versa. Add to that the fact that timbre plays a far greater role in perceived dynamic than mere loudness/softness. That is why musicians are fond of saying that forte does not mean loud (but strong) and piano not soft (but smooth).
DarkwingScooter 2 months ago
@DarkwingScooter LOL You could not be anymore wrong. I've performed and conducted at the highest level. Good luck with your line of thinking. I'm sure your ensembles will be craptacular snooze fests with literally tens of people coming to see you!
TheEdge04 2 months ago
@TheEdge04 I have had a fair few standing ovations in over-capacity concert halls myself, I never said that you needn't play the written dynamics.
What I am saying is that if you are ONLY playing the written dynamics you get what was heard in example one. Example two was the result thoughtful passion and commitment, not simply adding dynamics.
In no score apart from Boulez are dynamics indicated remotely precisely enough to yield that result.
DarkwingScooter 2 months ago
@DarkwingScooter (Part 1) It’s thinking like yours that is the reason why orchestras all over are going bankrupt and so many school music programs are in such poor shape. The educator in me can’t let this slide any longer. Let’s start with the basics: You stated that forte means strong and piano means smooth. Right here you have errors in logic. Piano and Forte are opposites. Let’s test your logic:
TheEdge04 2 months ago
@DarkwingScooter (Part 2) The opposite of Strong is Weak, not smooth. The opposite of Smooth is Rough, not strong. So in both cases you are wrong. If you cannot grasp this simple concept then it is no wonder you are having trouble understanding. While there are times I might want my ensemble to play rough or weak, it is surely not the meaning of the numerous ‘f’ and ‘p’ marks found in most music.
TheEdge04 2 months ago
@DarkwingScooter (Part 3) The piano instrument used to be called the “Piano-Forte” meaning “soft-loud”, showcasing the range of the instrument. Before this keyboard instruments such as the harpsichord could only play one dynamic, and yes, by dynamic they meant volume level, not the timbre that you claim it means. Timbre deals with quality of sound which is independent from dynamics, which is the varying degrees of loud and soft.
TheEdge04 2 months ago
@TheEdge04 Lol, you assign some simplistic interpretation of a word and then harrangue me for saying that interpretation is wrong because I don't use it?
When did the terms "forte" and "piano" become common currency in musical literature? Do you even know? Have not heard of the haut/bas or fort/ douce distinctions? What does the word "soft" actually mean? What about the spatial implication?
If you are just thinking of of reducing the amplitude as on an oscilloscope you are not doing dynamics.
DarkwingScooter 2 months ago
@DarkwingScooter (Part 4) That is why we use 2 different words because they mean 2 different things. Furthermore you stated that “dynamics are the product of thoughtful musicianship.” No they’re not. I can teach a 5 year old when to play soft and when to play loud. When he repeats it that doesn’t mean he/she is a thoughtful musician. It just means they did what they were told to do. Whether you like it or not, that’s what most music in the ensemble setting comes down to.
TheEdge04 2 months ago
@DarkwingScooter (Part 5) Doing what you’re told to do. In orchestral/wind ensemble literature you almost never have a piece of music void of dynamic markings. When people play piano it’s because the sheet of paper told them to. If the piece happens to lack dynamics and the conductor decides to put some in, either through verbal cues or through his/her conducting, the ensemble is still doing what they’re told to do.
TheEdge04 2 months ago
@TheEdge04 If you have never seen a piece void of dynamic markings you clearly have not been introduced to some of the composers in the Bach family.
I also didn't say that players can do all kinds of different things, what I said was that ensemble is not merely a case of everyone doing the same thing, that ensemble is the product of people thinking in MUSICAL unison. Sometimes you need to play the third of the chord softer than indicated to get a balanced chord...
DarkwingScooter 2 months ago
@DarkwingScooter (Part 6) You CANNOT have musicians acting independently and “feeling” their own version of the music. It creates “dirt” in the sound. Sometimes it’s ok to take cues from the principle player on things like where to begin a crescendo, etc.. If you’re sitting 2nd chair and decide to follow your “heart” and begin a crescendo ahead of the principle violin, you will be 1) Reamed by said player and the conductor, and/or 2) Looking for a new job in the morning.
TheEdge04 2 months ago
@DarkwingScooter (Part 7) There is a reason why we rehearse. It’s to figure out what we’re going to do with the music and how to play it with each other. 9 times out of 10 that means doing what the conductor wants the music to do. Again, it’s being planned out. You’re being told what to do. It’s choreographed.
TheEdge04 2 months ago
@DarkwingScooter (Part 8) Otherwise everyone would just practice by themselves and then we’d get together and have a concert because, ‘don’t worry, they’re all going to “feel” the music the same way and it will be miraculous!’ Give me a break. It would be a disaster. What happened in the video above was planned out. Rehearsed. The first time was not played “100% correctly” like the director said.
TheEdge04 2 months ago
@DarkwingScooter (Part 9) . It had almost zero dynamic contrast even though they attempted dynamics. This is not an opinion. It’s testable. Bring out a decibel reader and see how it barely moves a notch. Sadly most school programs fit into this category. They’re range of dynamics makes people yawn. To be truly great, you must have the softest pianissimo and the loudest fortissimo. It creates true dynamic contrast. And for the last time, YES, THAT MEANS VOLUME.
TheEdge04 2 months ago
@DarkwingScooter (Part 10) The reason people pay $100+ to see an orchestra live is to be excited!!! Not bored by cheap imitations that play mezzo forte for 90 minutes. I’ve seen many groups where the director does as you stated and tells them to play what they feel even where dynamic markings are not listed. It’s a mess. That’s not what ensemble is. Ensemble is a group working together towards a common goal.
TheEdge04 2 months ago
@DarkwingScooter (Part 11) You cannot possibly be together when you have 9 cello each playing a different dynamic or swelling in different places. Whether it was written or not, someone had to show the ensemble in the above video where to play loud and where to play soft. They did not come to some sort of psychic agreement while playing with each other live on that stage, that this is how it goes. Results came from cues and planning.
TheEdge04 2 months ago
@TheEdge04 Speaking of Bach, how much time do you think do think he spent going through details like you describe when he wrote a new Cantata every week? His orchestra must have been a mess. His harpsichord playing a dull simulcra of modern piano's (lol, then you never heard a harpsichord played well).
Orchestra's are not the model for classical music, they are the outcome of a particular Romantic vision of it. They are little more than money sucking cultural history machines nowadays.
DarkwingScooter 2 months ago
@DarkwingScooter LOL! Oh, you're one of those guys. Good luck in mediocrity and never understanding why people just don't "get you." It's safe to say I'll never see you on tour or in one of my ensembles. We can see people like you coming from a mile away. You're what's wrong in classical music today.
TheEdge04 1 month ago
@TheEdge04 You are the one that is claiming that it is ONLY dynamics that made the difference in the sense of playing what was notated.
THAT is a mediocre position, because dynamics is far more extensive phenomenon than can ever conceivably be notated. Not even Boulez scores only capture a small portion of what is really going on with dynamics.
If your interpretation were correct a Midi interpretation would be the same if not better than a human one.
DarkwingScooter 1 month ago
Comment removed
DarkwingScooter 1 month ago
@DarkwingScooter LOL! You will never realize how clueless you are. You will one day reflect on your life and question why you never made it, and blame it on others for not taking notice of your greatness. You will never realize that you were the problem all along.
TheEdge04 1 month ago
@TheEdge04 That's funny because YOU are the one with the anemic one-dimensional concept of what dynamics are.
DarkwingScooter 1 month ago
@DarkwingScooter Nope, I am the one that creates fantastic sounding ensembles and puts butts in the seats while laughing at guys like you that don't get how it works.
TheEdge04 1 month ago
@TheEdge04 On the internet we are all hero's, never forget. I myself have walked on Mars numerous times and wrestled several Bengal tigers to the ground. If you don't believe me just Google my real name: "Ernest Hemingway".
Oh, yes I forgot to mention I faked my own death and am now a sprightly 110 years old...
DarkwingScooter 1 month ago
@TheEdge04 if you're going to say someone's wrong in their point of view, at least give a reason as to why their wrong, instead of bashing and insulting their way of thinking. It makes your statement of "performing and conducting at the highest level" totally unbelievable.
Lorenzo321355 2 months ago
@Lorenzo321355 As you wish. Incoming wall of text. But only because you asked so nicely.
TheEdge04 2 months ago
If meant to be a condemnation of the entire American education system (and I'm not sure that it was but the video's description suggests otherwise), then the conductor's demonstration sadly perpetuates a harmful stereotype, ignoring the many teachers (in both the academics and the arts) who work tirelessly to hold their students to high, uncompromising standards regardless of their state's base-level curricular expectations.
andan04 2 months ago
@andan04
I think what he's trying to say is that the majority of our country's teachers are great, they've just been shackled by programs like No Child Left Behind that forces them to teach to a test rather than formulate what curriculum is best for their students. It's why countries like Finland don't have any standardized tests at all, yet are tops in the world in educational proficiency when they graduate.
alep85 2 months ago
@alep85 I hope you're right, but if so he left that message open to misinterpretation. Your comparison to Finland, however, may be apples-to-oranges. You put a different student body in and you're likely to get different results out.
andan04 2 months ago
this sums up exactly how i feel, and that's coming from someone who's being taught by this teaching system. . .
noone8970 3 months ago
this is so true
Pinksterm1 4 months ago
This video is great! I always encourage my students to give 110% effort in my music classes. This video will be added to my googlesite, so that parents also understand the level that i expect from thier children!
ccflute1 5 months ago
Now I know why an "A" is not enough:)
ThaMuzikMan101 8 months ago
Sooo this is why bandos shouldn't be made fun of nearly as much as they are.
NicholasGreen91 8 months ago
this demonstration is getting a little old...
dryanmcdonald 9 months ago
Some of my students could not care less if what they are playing is correct or not. After some abysmal sight-reading where they were not even trying, we showed them this video. Afterward, they sounded like a different band. We did nothing to tell them how to play their instruments better, but seeing this video helped them see why they have to try.
scraplove1 10 months ago 2
An afterthought: The "grade" aspect of it is not the conductor's point, I don't believe. It's the effort, as I mention below.
hthomure 10 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
What I take away from it as a former music educator, is not that we demand, or even expect, perfection. But that we must stop accepting mediocrity and strive for perfection (excellence). Perfection is unattainable, but still a worthy goal. I never told my students, "I expect perfection." What I did say, however, was, "I expect your best." What better way to do your best than to strive for perfection?
I didn't verbalize that very well, but I think my meaning is pretty clear.
hthomure 10 months ago
What I take away from it as a former music educator, is not that we demand, or even expect, perfection. But that we must stop accepting mediocrity and strive for perfection (excellence). Perfection is unattainable, but still a worthy goal. I never told my students, "I expect perfection." What I did say, however, was, "I expect your best." What better way to do your best than to strive for perfection?
I didn't verbalize that very well, but I think my meaning is pretty clear.
hthomure 10 months ago
I thought it sounded ok.
okieinexile 10 months ago
I sat and watched this with my son. Since he is a musician, he totally "got" the message. A perfect example of mediocrity and why it is unacceptable. Thank you!
wendymaq 10 months ago
I just realized... I played this in middle school and got to be in the lovely flute trio in the middle. Fun memories!
Listen to the full version: It's Shennandoah by Frank Ticheli. I've played a quite a bit of his pieces mostly in middle school, and all of it is beautiful.
hkkim576 11 months ago
So in regards to the likes and dislikes, overall this video gets an 'A'. Pretty good! :-)
PIER39SFCA 11 months ago
No Child Left Behind in our nation would seem like an impressive statistic. To the rest of the world, however, we're One Nation Left Behind. Unfortunately, policy makers get caught up in the numbers that make us (and them) look "good." So the United States ISN'T number one at something?!?!?!
We've got a culture that DEPENDS on rewards but DENIES "failure." On the other hand, those who understand that failure IS NECESSARY to promote growth and learning are rewarded with TRUE success.
briancabacar 11 months ago
Despite what others might say , this is a totally true video . In my classroom , every Friday we do playing tests . A bass player got a 90% , but my teacher asked him to retake it , saying that just an A wasn ' t enough when it came to orchestra . She was the one who brought me to this video . I think the points he makes are generally head-on, and we should all take this lesson into consideration .
50redwhiteblue 11 months ago
Those of us with hearing loss couldn't understand him, and he was too far away to read his lips. Subtitles would be nice, but I guess this is meant for people who can hear.
MarthaStout0202 11 months ago
@xmoopzx Even if these students were given weeks, even months to practice these pieces for a performance, as Dr. Brennan said- every answer that these students need are on the page. The point he is trying to make is what these students are creating OFF the page. It's the application of what they learn in rehearsal for a performance. It's comparing what can be learned in order to pass a test, to what can be learned BEYOND that.
vill0082 11 months ago 7
Then why bother giving an example of what the piece sounds like if played with 10% error? Part of his point was the expectation of perfection, which I think is ridiculous in an academic context.
xmoopzx 11 months ago
@xmoopzx. Not exactly the case here. These kids received the music about 2-3 weeks before this concert. They did not play together until about 48 hours before the concert. This was one of about 7 songs played under the same process.
As for having the answers ahead of the test, I can only assume that most academic students have textbooks that would have sufficient information to answer the test questions.
I do get your point. I just found it to be an interesting way to demonstrate the message.
bobdevonshire 11 months ago 10
@bobdevonshire But what you must understand is having sufficient information to answer test questions is different to having access to the test. It's like, if the students had enough similar musical material to prepare them for sight-reading the piece on performance day. Bottom line is, if they had to sight read, they would probably make a few mistakes.
xmoopzx 11 months ago
@xmoopzx I think grading sightreading on accuracy is fine, it's a fair comparison. I think part of the point he's making though is that putting a numerical grade for a rehearsed concert is unreasonable. When a music student gets a grade, it's never based on just sight-reading. For performers, notes are something you take care of at home so you can bring it with you next rehearsal. Good music teachers teach the means to expression in the classroom. Putting grades to expression is a bit pointless.
hkkim576 11 months ago 4
@hkkim576 Right, Ok I understand now :)
xmoopzx 11 months ago
there's a fundamental mistake in this analogy. The students in this musical ensemble are provided weeks to practice for this particular song, and there will be no differences or surprises on their sheet music on performance day. They're only engaging muscle memory. The equivalent in academia would be to provide the answers to an exam weeks in advance, only then would perfection be expected. Try giving the band a piece to sight-read and see if it still sounds perfect
xmoopzx 11 months ago
@xmoopzx do you play an instrument? You statement tells me that you don't. In my school district students receive the music and have a day and half rehearsal and are able to perform the music at the level where it should be performed. Its called good teaching.
mbcwolverine00 11 months ago 2
@mbcwolverine I play five instruments. And you're missing the point. Students taking examinations don't receive the actual paper even in advance at all, and thus don't have ANY time to practice it. The time of examination is the first time they get to see the exam, so the a fair comparison would be where the students receive the musical piece at the time of performance, i.e . sight-reading, in which case there'd be a few mistakes. Perfection would be a ridiculous demand.
xmoopzx 11 months ago
@xmoopzx No. You're missing the point. The big picture that Dr.Brennan is try show is that the education system is setup to "teaching the test." STOP TEACHING THE TEST....If teachers would teach past the test or teach to a higher order of thinking then students would do better on these test. We all know that there can be improvement and that no performance is ever perfect.
mbcwolverine00 11 months ago 5
@xmoopzx There's no surprises on the sheet music, but getting all the notes right on a page isn't the point. Sheet music is a means to art, not the art itself. Sure, there's the same notes and rhythms on the page, but every musical nuance makes music. There will always be a surprise on performance day because that's what makes a piece unique, beautiful, and , musical. There is no comparison to the rest of academia because the arts are vocative of human emotion, not some silly numerical system.
hkkim576 11 months ago
Ok cool, I'm still a little confused to what your rebuttal is here? My point is that the same expectation of perfection shouldn't be applied to academia...
xmoopzx 11 months ago
@hkkim576 exactly! you can play music technically perfectly, but if you leave the emotion out of it, then it is nothing
MrThePAX 11 months ago
Good grief! When I was in school, an A was 90 or above, B 80-89, a C 70-79, a D 60-69, an F under 60. Those were the grades, You didn't get graded on a curve. If you passed you passed, and if you failed you failed. What's wrong with education is there is no level standard and everyone is trying so hard not to damage fragile feelings that no on is learning anything! Bring back excellence and demand our children ACHIEVE, not just get passed! Achievement builds self esteem,not hollow praise!
geniekri 11 months ago
Dr. Brennan used to give this speech when I studied under him at Mansfield University, 10 years ago.
sheilarawr 11 months ago
Well, imagine that!
dasteufelhund 11 months ago
A 90 used to be a "B," not an "A." (20 yrs ago) Wth?
Talk about the dumbing down of America...
shellymic 11 months ago
@shellymic All school's have different grading scales. At my school 90 is a B.
TooSlowGamer 11 months ago
we watched this in music class
glardian966 11 months ago
my music teacher told me to watch this
glardian966 11 months ago
are they Amish?
chamberl 11 months ago
Clever, honest, and painfully true.
lovejazz42 11 months ago
amen. profound
Kduckify 11 months ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Here's the message I heard:
Kids should only be forced to learn about those things for which they have a passion or natural talent, and in which they can be expected to excel; and not simply learn, but deeply internalize and interpret. If (God forbid) they were presented with a subject for which they did not feel that passion, they should be immediately condemned for their good grades, because they just weren't inspired enough. I'm too much of a liberal arts person to buy that.
iamihop11 11 months ago
@iamihop11 What the hell video were you watching? Way to take a simple message and throw it so far out of context that it means nothing.
Memberofdoom 11 months ago 8
@iamihop11 Here's the message I heard from you:
Kids should not be expected to excel in some area they haven't tried before and for which they haven't yet had a chance to develop a passion. We can make them do it, sure, but we should be more than happy with their less than perfection, because that is the way that the world works. All you have to say is "oh, I am not passionate about that" and you automatically get a pass for your mediocrity.
Quit being liberal cause someone told you to be.
indy0skies 11 months ago 2
@iamihop11 wow--- you are slow.... You must not have taken music classes. Nice way to ruin his very profound message!
hekkerts 11 months ago 2
Thank you so much for this wonderful analogy of how it should be in education.
runsingteach 11 months ago
It takes a real musician to play like they are just learning.
TheBasenjiman 11 months ago
So simple and yet so profound!
myviolinrecital 11 months ago
one person has no soul... who could dislike this?
SammehDx 11 months ago 2
@SammehDx It's a Youtube rule... no matter how good a video is, there's always someone who looks a "0 dislikes" and has to be the first one to break it.
screenhogstudios 11 months ago 6
@SammehDx They're probably an anti-arts politician.
TheresNoEinALLI 4 months ago
I once asked my mentor George Parks if I could use some of his inspirational speeches for my High School kids, and he told me to go ask Dr. Tim Lautenhizer if it was ok. I had the opportunity to ask him a few months later and he told me to go ask George Parks for permission.....As educators we all use the same speeches over and over to drive in the same point.
WMHSBandDirector 11 months ago 3
@WMHSBandDirector Is this Dr. Tim conducting? I only got to meet him once - I'm from MD, and i got to meet Dr. Parks a few times. This world needs more people like this. I am happy to report that I have seen some very good young band directors, including friends of mine, that GET it! It makes me happy to know with all the other activities and tv/internet/xbox etc., that there are still (music) teachers who love to teach, and kids to "buy," understand and (want) to get IT too!
jnurin 11 months ago
I spent my 13 years of elementary/middle/high school learning how to (and succeeding to) beat the system academically and get straight As while being pushed to *learn* musically. I'm now a college-aged musician/actor who's passing all of his theater/music classes with flying colors and struggling to keep his head above failing in academic classes.
smdoremus87 11 months ago
When does the 14 yr old music genius come into this discussion as always happen on Youtube and inform us his band played this song only much better? lol
DanS24106 11 months ago 2
I don't care if he was inspired by someone else. It needs to be said over and over again.
attemptcreativity 11 months ago 3
h t t p : / / w w w . y o u t u b e . c o m / w a t c h ? v = m w 4 v q l l 9 c A M
Take out the spaces to see the Jack Stamp video. By the way, he made that speech in 2003, which is more than 6 years ago. Stamp's video has over 100,000 views. He was my band director and my conducting teacher in college. This is definitely from him, not Dr. Brennan.
cadenzafermata 11 months ago
what song is this?
VaNooGa 11 months ago
@VaNooGa Shenandoah, by Frank Ticheli, I believe.
pianojasonc 11 months ago
actually if u wanna get technical, every year, the averages are recalculated higher (average always being 100 so that the average gets higher every year.) so this actually means, people are getting smarter. sure, some schools are better and some are worse, but overall, schools are getting better every year.
marktremontirules1 11 months ago
@marktremontirules1 Doesn't mean people are necessarily getting smarter, just being better test takers.
jjuggaloparkour 11 months ago 2
@jjuggaloparkour I agree: better test takers, or lower test standards... Either way the test is the emphasis.
sjboenzi 10 months ago
Finally..... Some one grew the *cough* to put into stupid terms what has needed to have been for many years now!!!
To Dr. Brennan I stand up in front of my computer and applaud you.
Aaron5ash 11 months ago
PMEA is the Pennsylvania Music Educators Association
bobdevonshire 11 months ago 2
Dr. Brennan gave this speech when I was in Marching Band 6 years ago. I don't think he stole it chuckwagon96.
studafed 11 months ago
Dr. Brennan is directing the PMEA District 7 Band.
There are over 100 kids from high schools from the south central Pennsylvania area. Lancaster, York, Adams, Lebanon, Perry, Dauphin and Perry Counties I believe.
bobdevonshire 11 months ago 3
This is almost verbatim a demonstration that Jack Stamp did on a video that was uploaded two years ago. I agree with the message, but it seems like he is trying to make this seem like its his idea. It won't let me post the link but search "Jack Stamp- Why Music Matters" in youtube to find it.,
chuckwagon96 11 months ago
I was in that band. When he said "words of his cat", it was so funny. Hahaha
iwasScheetz 11 months ago
Dr.Brennan just conducted our local Tri-Band and he was so inspiring!!! He is truly a great musician!
ngpiano72 11 months ago
Great Job Dr. B!!! He hits the nail on the head with this message
trumpetplayer1989 11 months ago
This is so compelling. Well done, Dr. Brennan. Really nice "interpretation" at the end. Just lovely. (from another music educator)
You all get your A PLUS.
apiarygirl 11 months ago
For those of you wondering, this appears to be Dr. Adam F. Brennan conducting the Mansfield University Wind Ensemble at a recent PMEA conference.
dumbo800 11 months ago
Great demonstration and great band!
0Eonomine0 11 months ago
this is an amazing demonstration
Drayche 11 months ago
Great commentary for the audience. Watch, there is more to come!
BobScottProductions 11 months ago
Really good message, but the audience, I believe, was dumbed down a bit.
dextergordon72 11 months ago
@dextergordon72 What do you mean?
DarkStygian 11 months ago
A great demonstration, I was happy to be a part of it (1st tenor).
Brennan was great! :)
carlheanerd 11 months ago