Occam's Razor, Dulled

[TheMors666]

While I agree with most of this, it may limit Occam’s Razor too much. If one person makes X hypothesis and reaches Z conclusion and another person makes Y hypothesis to reach Z conclusion, Occam’s Razor can be used when comparing X and Y as their conclusions are equal. X and Y can be completely different (the arguments can be entirely different) but Occam’s Razor can still be applied legitimately.

[chrisofnottingham]

I think you have to see OR in the context that people then didn't know so much stuff for sure anyway. He is thus saying "don't make up more stuff than you need to." Today this would shift to "try to keep ideas for which there is no evidence to a minimum."

The point about QM is that before we had evidence for it, you would have been crazy and unjustified in suggesting it because there was just no reason to. However, with new evidence - things not being equal - QM is as simple as we can make it.

[Pigroota]

Yep. That's what you get when a scientist tries to interpret a philosophical idea. I don't think the idea is simple, but his rant does become a bit garbled, even smarmy. But we were chatting with 2 totally different viewpoints. All I know is that scientists do not yield to logic. Empiricism is all they know. That's why philosophers have far more sex than scientists!

Aussies are pretty cool. Our country is full of wanker politicians and do gooders, but generally we know how to have a good time!

[myjizzureye]

You got to be like a heart beat and a fart away from a massive pine box. I'm like on the edge of my chair watching cause im thinking any breath you draw might be your last.

[FantasticBabblings]

@myjizzureye Many heartbeats and farts since your comment and I'm still here :)

[myjizzureye]

@FantasticBabblings Well if you're standing on thin ice you might as well dance huh....

Nobody can say you haven't lived life to the fullest. Just dont leave anybody your bakery tab as it will force somebody to mortgage their house.

[0spiker]

Babble a little? Like a hurricane rains a little? "I don't know what I know, but that's a simplification of oh uh I don't know or uh maybe I do if I knew what that word meant. Like when I say the concept was around before W of O, then talk about thinkers who lived after him unless they uh lived before him uhm, if I knew what lived meant. I know it's defined in a book somewhere, well..."Here's a much less known tool in Occam's tool box: Occam's GET TO THE GODDAMNED POINT ALREADY!!

[Piccolo7126]

are the quidlibetal (spelling?) questions any good?

[Pigroota]

Not sure you grasped this concept entirely. Occ Raz does not require 'all other things being equal' in terms of results. The concept applies best to differing hypotheses and that is where it gains pragmatism

Eg Crop circles - theory1: Aliens did it. Theory2: Humans did it

2 different theories but the principle suggests we can make a rational choice of one over the other. The one that is simpler/makes fewer unsupported assumptions is better. The only 'equal' is the lack of other information

[FantasticBabblings]

@Pigroota I respectfully disagree and suggest you might do some further research. Your example is not a valid application of Occam's Razor.

[Pigroota]

No no. It is a valid application. I never said you were wrong, only that the concept is more useful when used to decipher an appropriate conclusion when faced with 2 different hypotheses. That is where it gains practical use, a rare philosophical trait. In this case the idea can be condensed - KISS

In your example the idea is applicable but it's more like common sense - a proof that can be produced in 4 steps instead of 5. Why would we want the added complexity? Simple. Now ask yourself who

[Pigroota]

made crop circles and the philosopher in you instinctively rears its head, well, instinctive for most people. One may be unaware of the idea but has used it nonetheless to arrive at a rational conclusion. I am not wrong Jingo. I have done much reading on philosophy. I'm an accountant but it's like a hobby to me. Philosophy and morals are an important part of accounting.

[FantasticBabblings]

@Pigroota Your crop circle example contains no arguments with which to apply Occam's Razor. You have merely preferred one assumption over another because your intuition tells you one is more likely than the other. OR is not about probability or intuition. It is about the multiplication of entities. But you have presented no entities at all, just two competing assumptions.

OR draws distinctions between logically valid arguments. If one is invalid for other reasons, OR is totally unnecessary.

[Pigroota]

Well first off, they are not assumptions. They are hypotheses! To have 2 contradictory assumptions negates an argument

You're right about one thing. Intuition. And your intuition is the Razor at work. You have effectively 'shaved' off the more complicated (in this case because there are fewer unsupported assumptions) theory to arrive at the conclusion that humans did it. Perhaps you are thinking of a more scientific application of the Razor, but this my friend, is the philosophical approach

[Pigroota]

Are you telling me that everything I read was false? Here's a quote from a book i got for Christmas:

"Occam's Razor is in essence an injunction not to seek a more complicated explanation where a simpler one is available"

The crop circle example applies perfectly Jingo. Don't know why you are questioning it.

[FantasticBabblings]

@Pigroota Who the hell is Jingo?

I still disagree with you, but I will admit a prejudice towards scientific thinking vs philosophical.

"Philosophy of science is about as useful to scientists as ornithology is to birds." - Richard Feynman

[Pigroota]

Ok, but don't forget that this approach is not mutually exclusive to science. After all, the Razor from a philosophical viewpoint provides greater pragmatism where a theory is want of proof. Where science fails, philosophy can prevail! The Razor provides a suitable answer to a scientific question in the crop circle example. I don't like that quote. Don't get me wrong though - the scientific approach is ALWAYS the way to go!

Jingo is another word for mate in Aussie slang

[FantasticBabblings]

@Pigroota Aussie! Ok. The explanation is simple. The Dingo ate the crop circle :)

[Perlustrate]

I was in agreement until the end. I feel uncomfortable with the talk of quantum and classical physics because they are not competing explanations. I'm not sure if you meant to imply they were or if you were simply pointing out that people often make that mistake with Occam's razor.

[FantasticBabblings]

Quantum physics does not contradict classical physics, but at sub-atomic scales classical physics doesn't completely describe reality. At classical scale, for example, Planck's constant is meaningless and could be shaved away, but at quantum scale it is essential. But then at classical scale Planck's constant wouldn't be observed...

I get into trouble when talking about quantum mechanics :)

You're right. It's a bad example.

[1984fiction]

Hmmm, this video has certainly made me review my opinion on the definition and uses of Occam's razor.

It is often brought up on 'skeptic' podcasts I listen to when discussing UFOs, for example. They always say things along the lines of "weather balloons are more plausible than an alien race" but I suppose this is mixing different concepts really. I hadn't before considered things you said such as quantum mechanics not being a plausible explanation.

[1984fiction]

Love the background too, even if I did feel like I was lying on my back the whole time!

Sorry for rambling, Adam.

PS. My comment was so long I had to spread it over 2 posts! Whoops.

[FantasticBabblings]

I hear that often, but OR has nothing to do with plausibility or probability. It is simply the cleaning up of arguments by eliminating extraneous entities.

[logicaust]

Great vid, Phil :)

Peace.

[FantasticBabblings]

Thanks.

[fishhead06]

What "not multiplying entities" means is that if you can explain something in five steps, don't add more.

Ontology is the branch of philosophy that deals with quesions of being.

Parsimony is sort of "an all things being equal" principle. That's the problem with it - sometimes additional steps are necessary.

There! I just explained Occam's Razors in less than 100 words!

[FantasticBabblings]

Bravo. I like your simplicity.

[3CoolKats]

Great background and a good Occamsplanation Phil. This is actually only the second time I've even heard the term. The first was as a title to an episode of "House". I can't remember what the plot was.

BTW another helicopter on the same flight path goes by at 4:23

[FantasticBabblings]

I'm glad you enjoyed my 'splainin'.

If the video had been just a bit longer, that helicopter would have flown by one more time ;)

[Dozzer]

Simplicity works well among peers of the same level of intelligence. Meaning if one proof can be reduced in steps by combining like words then making it simpler helps reduce confusion and clutter. But since this only happens in a small amount of occasions, it is best to show all steps especially if you have to present to a layman or someone in the group of a lesser plane of knowledge. i do concur with you that Occam's Razor over used. Justice for life is not served in simple terms.

[FantasticBabblings]

As Richard Feynman said about his Nobel winning work, "If I could explain it to the average person, I wouldn't have been worth the Nobel Prize."

[kenrg]

Excellent explanation of the Razor - So many people think "simpler is better" and go with that when it's really a matter of the fewer entities, but still requiring proof.

So, "The aliens must have moved my car keys," while simple, is not always the correct reason they're never where you think you left them.

[FantasticBabblings]

The aliens didn't move your car keys. They moved your car.

[GramsandPapi]

Very interesting!! Love the background Phil!! Blessings, Ang

[FantasticBabblings]

Thanks so much.

[RDJim]

you have to respect anyone who can throw out words like "parsimony" in normal conversation. yes, I looked it up. :)

[FantasticBabblings]

I used to confuse parsimony with persimmon. I thought it was a fruit :)

[andymooseman]

Nothing dull about this video Phil.

I love that background shot. There was a sense of expectation waiting for the helicopter to fly over :)

[FantasticBabblings]

Thanks Andy. I'm glad I finally found a use for the cloud footage.

[TheReasonWhyGuy]

great video, needed to be said.

[FantasticBabblings]

Thanks.

[tomfrankly]

thank you for this video. i don't think i've ever heard anyone use it correctly now that you've brought this to my attention.

[FantasticBabblings]

YouTube "philosophers" seldom use it correctly.

[jrsnyderjr]

"...clean up theories when all else is equal" and "argument for excellence." Occam's razor has always been one of my favorite concepts.

great editing concept.

[FantasticBabblings]

Perhaps more argument for efficiency (of the ontological variety) than excellence. Although one might lead to the other.

[fehquig]

Sharply said...

[FantasticBabblings]

I get it. Sharp... yeah.

[yellowlabrador]

one of those towers seems to be swaying bottom righthand corner?

[FantasticBabblings]

It's the autofocus. As the sky changes the camera refocuses and gives the appearance of sway. Either that or some very strong winds.

[PappyStu]

PS this would be an excellent example of work for my Cinematography Invitation due to its ascetically appealing nature...

[SWTPEA64]

Look a Helicopter! (smile-smile) I "love" clouds : D

[FantasticBabblings]

I love the copter. If only a plane had flown overhead. The clouds were lovely that day.

[PappyStu]

Like KISS... Keep It Simple Stupid?

he he he

[FantasticBabblings]

More or less. Preferably less.

[PappyStu]

only pecks not french LOL

[flaze3]

I like your argument. However, as regarding the weary topic of the existence of God, you may have one person arguing that A is such-and-such because of X, Y and Z--where one letter signifies or implies God, whereas someone else may say that A is such-and-such because of X and Y --where one letter signifies or implies evolution, say.

Now, by your definition of O.R., the judgement as to which argument is best would come down to how much both back-explaining each arguer is called upon to deliver

[flaze3]

So if either arguer can give a concise and coherent explanation as to the origin of his premises, that will make his argument better.

Of course, neither of them can, because the universe is, generally speaking, far too complicated for our minds to understand--God or no God.

Annoyingly you have some ppl who say 'because of God' and refuse to go any further than that, which makes their argument compelling to some people, but I feel such a tactic is a form of foul play.

[FantasticBabblings]

Occam's razor wouldn't apply here. All else is not equa; there is contentionl. Other aspects of logic (or extra-logic) might be helpful in evaluating the relative merits of the arguments.

In fact, OR is not particularly helpful in arbitrating differences. It is more effectively used as a heuristic in the process of developing an idea. It doesn't work so well in deconstructing one. You seldom know which entities were eliminated in the process.

[FantasticBabblings]

In my opinion any attempt to logically prove god or no god requires so much assumption that it is a waste of time.

But that puts me at odds with Occam himself, who thought that God was an infallible authority. He also thought the Bible and the Saints were infallible authorities.

[flaze3]

Ironic when you think that it is the Atheist camp who use Occam's razor (wrongly or not) the most!

But if Occam had lived today, who knowswhat beliefs he would subscribe to...

[FantasticBabblings]

So true. With all thinkers, writers, etc., you have to view them in context. While I favor reason and science as the best methods for finding the truth, we all live in our times and assume things that may not be true. Logic as an ideal may be perfect, but we humans will never be.

[flaze3]

Perfection, in my opinion, is meaningless because it's always held up as an unaittanable gold standard.

Suppose someone wrote an essay which scored 100%. He would have a perfect mark by the marking standards. However, if someone wrote what everyone agreed was a better essay, we'd say that that essay was perfect and the previous was excellent, but clearly not perfect.

[flaze3]

It thus makes no sense to have levels of perfection, but it means perfection itself is unrealizable. I think that's why humans postulate God as a figure of awe--that which is unimaginably perfect.

[HumanBlade666]

Love the effects. Great video

[FantasticBabblings]

Thanks.

[mwest1234]

So I guess that the "all else being equal" is a requirement. Finally, it makes sense! Thanks, Phil. I'll have to keep this piece of cleverness in my back pocket for when someone is trying to impress me in the future.

[FantasticBabblings]

As a general rule, yes, all else must be equal. Occam's razor is not particularly effective as pwnage, in spite of the common usage as such on YT. But it is so thin that it will fit in your back pocket :)

[mwest1234]

Now, if I could just summon up a desire to make pwnage videos... I think it's time to go put up the Christmas tree with my boyfriend.

[thizizliz]

Well said Phil - nice and clean. By the way - great effects with the screen.

[FantasticBabblings]

Thanks, Liz. I was doing a little blue sky research that day :)

[MadBadVoodo]

Interesting stuff man! BTW LUV the background!!

Five Stars!!

[FantasticBabblings]

Thanks MBV.

[HazmatB]

I like the sound of your voice too!

[FantasticBabblings]

Come a little closer and I will whisper sweet nothings in your ear ;-)

[NiteBlogger]

Thanks for mini lesson on Occam's Razor...while most probably went over my 4'10" frame...I think you explained it well enough that some of it stuck. ;)

I love to hear you speak and that background is killer! Now want to rush out & experiment with that technique. LOL

[FantasticBabblings]

The technique is pretty easy, but once you load a video up with these effects, it takes forever to render.

[strangeparty]

I love the backdrop. :)))

[FantasticBabblings]

Fortunately it is in the public domain. Nobody owns the clouds.

[leporidus]

I'm sure that I misapplied Ockham's razor from time to time in the past. Thanks for this fresh perspective, Phil.

Speaking of perspective: the zenith as a backdrop is intriguing. From the viewer's vantage point, it looks like you're "on top". (-;

[FantasticBabblings]

I haven't been on top in years =0

[VoxTheory]

I love this series you are doing on fallicies, Phil. Also love that background!

[FantasticBabblings]

More fallacies coming soon.

[achampag]

great use of green screen

[FantasticBabblings]

Thanks, Lea.

[UpDownMostly]

I listened intently but I think I nicked myself with Occam's razor -- but I'm ignoring the blood because it's just theoretical. :) Great video.

[FantasticBabblings]

Theoretical blood is cool. If you bleed out you can always transfuse yourself with your imagination.

[Ranblv]

I like Occam's Razor as it is applicable in the IT industry especially in heuristic trouble shooting.

[FantasticBabblings]

Absolutely. I use it myself. Where is applies it can be quite useful. But here on YT I see people trying to use it as an infallible tool of pwnage to prove or disprove the existence of god.

But of course, I don't think that YouTube videos will ever constitute a serious school of philosophy :)

[popebenadict16]

now that is a fact.

[Nysswald]

Learned something new today, thank you :)

[FantasticBabblings]

You're welcome.

[heatherlynblue]

great vid, phil. thank you for making it.

that hat is so hansome.

[FantasticBabblings]

Thanks Heather. I don't like my hair, so I have discovered hats. I'm glad you like it.

[murda1991]

I love your videos you keep me entertained and or interested just sittin there talking which is uncommon for sure thanks!

[FantasticBabblings]

It is my pleasure to sit and talk for you.

[RadicalPaddy]

Oh, occam's razor comes into play with Biology with construction of evolutionary trees quite prominently . Basically, the least steps to get from species a-b is often the most correct.

[FantasticBabblings]

True dat.

[OhCurt]

I experienced momentary brain freeze in the beginning but I was able to catch up.

And I see no fellaciousness here.

:-)

[FantasticBabblings]

It's all bullshit and babbling. I prefer to just watch the clouds roll by :)

[RadicalPaddy]

Kind of feels like you knocked me over in the street and are now philosophizing over me!

[FantasticBabblings]

New York is filled with violent philosophy gangs.

[Dimbnd]

I feel like you're talking to me trough a manhole.

[FantasticBabblings]

I have found that putting people in a hole and talking down to them gives me a distinct advantage :)

[burtoncharlessmith]

I use a Gillette.

[FantasticBabblings]

Do you use a foam or a gel with that?

[burtoncharlessmith]

I just use foam. Sometimes the most simple solution is the best.

[popebenadict16]

keep it simple phil.if you factor in all the possible reasons for this question and their answers,youd probably never even have the time to shave with any razor again.