Masahiko Kimura and Kanae Hirata-Hadaka Jime Variations

[moken88]

DON'T KISS HIM OLD MAN .....

[fdumitr]

What's the name of the second choke? In bjj is Ezekiel but I would like to know its name in judo.

I use it with great success in my gym usually when I'm in someone's guard...it's a tricky one.

[TheJakeJackson]

@fdumitr Sode Guruma Jime (sleeve wheel choke).

[swiftlessons]

Why does this Kimura/Helio debate still go on? They we're both great men, great teachers and revolutionaries in their respective disciplines. Kimura thought very highly of Helio's technique, and knew that he was onto something. Helio's loss to Kimura does not discredit BJJ, its just part of the story...and look how far it has come since that fight! Love my Judo, Love Jiu Jitsu!

[prk30]

@swiftlessons Your words are really rational. They were both superior fighters, and it's absolutely improper to conclude bjj is "worse" than judo, just considering this match. No man on Earth could defeat Kimura, and Helio knew that. The idea was not to win the fight, but to show how a single man developed a wonderful technique. Both Kimura and Helio Gracie (a man who I had the great honor to meet personally in Rio de Janeiro) were giants in their arts.

[rbrtdornel]

Si tuviera una máquina del tiempo reuniría a estos genios y me gustaría ver estas peleas: Masahiko Kimura vs. Rickson Gracier; M.Oyama vs. Choi Hong Hi; J.Kano vs. Ueshida; G.Funakoshi vs. Yip Man; Huo Yuanjia vs. Bruce Lee; Helio Gracie vs. Gene Lebell; Euclides Pereira vs. Bas Rutten; Royce Gracie vs. Wally Jay; Ku Yu Cheung vs. Ed Parker; Chuck Norris vs. Ken Shamrock; Joe Lewis vs. Frank Dux; Muhammad Ali vs. Joe Louis; Nai Khanomtom vs. Bai Yu Fen

[edbiology]

at 0:33 uke is like "stop kissing me!!!!!"

[2431346]

How would Kimura do against a bigger, stronger olympic wrestler?

[billysue2]

@2431346 in a gi,hed whup them,without hed still win because they have no sub defense

[2431346]

@billysue2

people don't walk around in public with gi's on. I am talking about in a fight.

[Jimmynable]

Who knows who really invented this ppl have been fighting on the ground since before history was recorded

[Jimmynable]

Maeda was a Kosen Judoka! He was sent abroad because Kano wanted Judo to be more about throws and getting the fight to the ground than pulling guard and looking for a submission. So he changed the rules limiting the amount of time on the ground and only allowing newaza after a throw then after wards there was the split between Kodokan and Kosen Judo.

[saltyseaweed]

@hitlergoonie4life

Ha ha sorry, it's hard to ge jokes over the Internet sometimes.

You are right . . . and it's not really even a wristlock; it's a shoulder lock, although judo insists it's an elbow lock. Maybe "double wrist reverse shoulder lock?" That's a real mouthful. Sometimes people say "reverse key lock." I just say "kimura." One word. Lot easier.

[saltyseaweed]

@hitlergoonie4life

Ude Garame is the proper judo name for it. But nobody has to use the judo name, is what I am saying. BJJ has chosen to call it Kimura, there's no point arguing that is right or wrong. Just like how Judo doesn't have to call kata Guruma "fireman's throw," even though Kano learned the move from a wrestling magazine.

[ichooseyoufromon]

where can i learn judo!?! and how do i start learning it?!

[ironflag2]

any chance we can stop talking about bjj and kosen judo? its all kodokan judo 

[EricRyanCronin]

@ironflag2 YES! Great Comment!

[saltyseaweed]

There is no correct or incorrect name for the move. It's not patented or copyrighted. It was probably used by grapplers thousands of years before Kano was born. Judokas call it Ude Garami. BJJ folks call it Kimura. Wrestlers call it Armlock. It's just a name. Sheesh.

[MrSamurai8]

Real Budo is eternall search for excelnce Ossu.

[Samboussr]

Kosen Judo ! yeaahhh!!

[judopathoftruth]

lol Royce Gracie are you watching?

If so this is how you fell asleep.

[Y0utubeIsFuckingHomo]

And Wow WTF Royce Gracie Dumbass Royce Gracie Never Submitted To A Kimura,It Was Helio Gracie Idiot And That's Not Fucking Cool Helio Gracie Is Dead

[redcapKO]

wow! to think that all this technique was revolutionized by the Gracies but I see very littel difference!

[mmajunkie1000]

hey people call it whatever you want it's still the same technique sheesh but i do agree with oddjob, it's still called ude garami to many judokas that reside in america today

[xbxzxlx]

it's possible to choke someone from inside their guard if you are at least 2 feet taller. or if their hips are broken. or if they have no idea what the guard is. it's science.

[Y0utubeIsFuckingHomo]

Yea They Named The Submission Move "Kimura" After Him Because He Beat Hélio Gracie With It But Before It Was Called Gyaku ude-garami

[oddjobjujitsu]

still is called a ude-garami

[Y0utubeIsFuckingHomo]

yea in fucking japan

[oddjobjujitsu]

wow so hostile.lol.....just by giving it a different name for a newer art does not change the fact that is still call ude-garami..o'h and before you get on your high horse...yes i trained judo but now bjj..

[Y0utubeIsFuckingHomo]

dude in japan you can call it whatever you want but in America it's Called THE KIMURA

[Alchy21]

lol where do u think the word kimura came from.... america? ofc not u cunt, came from japan.

[Y0utubeIsFuckingHomo]

alright dickface but this dude just said its still called ude-garami im talking about in america we call it the kimura

[Alchy21]

american fuck heads call it Americana... the origin of the word Kimura came from the japanese ka...

[Y0utubeIsFuckingHomo]

No Dick Face It Came From Masahiko Kimura Shithead Cause He Used It On Helio Gracie And It Made Him Tap And That Made The Move Famous

[Alchy21]

LOL YOU RETARD THATS WHAT I FUCKIN SAID... came from Japan. Kimura is from Japan you fuckin turd. They named it after Kimura (whOS FROM JAPAN). The Japanese way of sayin it is the most traditional and correct. Just cuz the Gracies want to call something something else doesnt mean thats the widely accepted way of calling it. Just like these american cunts call it an Americana...??

you cunt.

[Y0utubeIsFuckingHomo]

Obviously You Dont Understand What Im Saying You Fucking Immigrant I Know They Fucking Named It After Kimura Dipshit Thats What I Said Dumb Ass The Americana Is The Reverse Kimura It's A whole Different Story

[kirokyukan]

In MMA and BJJ it is known as the Kimura in Judo (The older and still more widespead art) it is called Ude Garami. Not sure about BJJ, but Judo terminology is universal. No matter what country I'm in if I go to a Judo club they will all call it Ude Garami - even in Brazil.

[mddog]

UDE GARAMI in japanese.

best regards

Kosen Judo Kyoto

[judopathoftruth]

Arigato Domo

[judopathoftruth]

Do Yo Honestly Have To Put Capitals In Every Word!

you make your self out to be more stupid than ever.

Reverse kimura is called yoshiro Ude Garami

[Y0utubeIsFuckingHomo]

Yo Dude Get A Life Responding To Comments A Month Old,You Dont Like How I Type Just Move On And Dont Read Or Reply To My Fucking Comments

[trickboy1]

ushiro ude garami

[judoandpeace]

you get the idea :)

hair splitter

[Alchy21]

American Ignorance at its best, your a retard, go train some bjj then come back and talk to me. Fuckin white belts who dont know jack shit bout bjj and try to argue.

cunt

[joenobody13]

everywhere besides Japan it's called a Kimura. and then the catch wrestling people call it a "double wrist lock" and they claim to have invented it.

[theblink182skater]

No Kimura before Kimura; no Kimura after Kimura

[Samboussr]

@theblink182skater and let me point one thing, GJJ or BJJ has nothing to do with Kosen Judo! Sensei Maeda was Judo Kodokan, the fight between Sensei Kimura vs Helio Gracie, graciee did not know how to counter the throw and the submission wich kimura hi apply couple times on gracie neck, gracie did nothing to get out or escape. this is was the real fact of GJJ.

[judopathoftruth]

Thank you for your help Kmiura sensei!

we will never forget you for as long as we the judo nation are here

thank you for defeating Helio Gracie

[xbxzxlx]

not sure what you have to gain from kimura defeating gracie, but i know what you lose from talking shit about it...

[judopathoftruth]

what do you loose?

tell me

[xcvcvxxcvcvx]

he was great but now its been proved bjj is more effective on ground

[judopathoftruth]

NO ITS NOT

HOW BEACUSE OF A FEW WINS IN MMA!

fuck you know jack shit

[judoka1976]

I was hoping that one day to see someone write that down. "thank you for defeating Helio Gracie" Right on the spot, man!!

[judopathoftruth]

im glad we stand united agsint this false idol of Grappling

this 'BJJ'

Newaza in portuguese?!

Japanese Judo and Jiujitsu all the way

Yoshida and Kimura for life

OSU!

[Samboussr]

@judopathoftruth and the men togheter in the video with sensei Kimura, and say with pleasure my former Sensei Kanae Hirata from Kosen Judo!  you all understud now why Kimura defeat Helio Gracie very easy.

Many on the internet and specially BJJ practicioner think that helio gracie was Judo Kodokan Black Belt, wich he was not! not record of him at the Kodokan Federation. propaganda is typical Gjj BJJ.

[MovieBuff069]

@judopathoftruth Kimura actually said Helio won that fight because it went over 15 minutes and Kimura had a 90lbs weight advantage

[nagantm44]

@MovieBuff069 no, he never said helio won the fight

[electronikita]

@MovieBuff069 ONO! the had maybe 1=7 pound difference=) Have you seen the fight? Dumbass look at 110 lb person and at 200lb person THATS 90lb difference. Gracie's are known for lies and disproportioning, and it is understandable given that they are businessmen

[BloodofPatriots]

@MovieBuff069 BS. Helio admits he was choked out by Kimura in the first 3 minutes but revived after Kimura released the choke.

[billysue2]

@MovieBuff069 no way there was a 90 lb difference.Kimura was 190 lbs max and helio at least 140 lbs.He was technically better than helio also,standing and on the ground.

[Jimmynable]

@billysue2 I don't know why ppl think Helio was the same weight when he was in his 80s and 90s when he grappled Kimura. There was only 5kg or 11lb difference and Kimura was only 4 yrs younger. The really sad thing is Helio to my knowledge never made these excuses and even admitted Kimura choke him unconscious early in the match but he came round when he released the choke. Maximum respect for both, two legends like there will prob never be again, RIP.

[Commonsense11111]

@Jimmynable if you watch the fight you see that gracie is hard to submit on the ground, but kimura submits him with what is now called, a kimura.

to me the most amazing part was how kimura dominated gracie on his feet, gracie got creamed by multiple judo throws to which the only defense he had was rigging the event by making the floor extra padded

[jzieziula]

It,s nice to see that even in his later years Master Kimora was in great shape.

[quutamo87]

that's Satoichi!!! XD

[SimonLy90]

Crazy how he could attack when he was guarded up. Usually you cant do shit when someone has you in guard. I have to see if it works though. Let you know if it does

[GJJFan]

yes you can attack while in the guard. There are many attacks to do from inside someone's guard. The guard position does not just force the guy IN the guard to be on the defensive. He has options just like the guy on his back, not as many, but he DOES have some options to attack.

[nbeaner]

We use that same technique in BJJ but you gotta wonder about judo with tosses. I noticed judo have similar tosses with wrestling tosses minus the gi. I think all these techniques did come from wrestling in some way or form and it just evolved over time.

[GJJFan]

Yeah, I have heard it referred to as the "Ezekiel Choke". Although they both have different variotions and positions from which to apply that technique. it is effective and a good way to attack from inside someone's guard! You just have to make sure you ahve a good base to watch out for the sweeps. I L-O-V-E Jiu-Jitsu AND Judo!!!!!!

[GJJFan]

Or I should say I love BJJ and JUDO since they are BOTH styles OF Jiu-Jitsu.

[shinjukool]

bjj is judo - just a tactical and training emphasis on newaza (ground fighting).

perhaps some of the "self defense" is innovation, e.g. "standing up in base" or such but that is probably being generous.

It is judo newaza and there is some question how much of the judo curriculum was actually taught to the G's by Maeda san who was a Kodokan yondan (4th degree).

They do train hard and have popularized newaza though.

[novan08]

well said

[cygroltd]

Judo came from samurai Jiu Jitsu when the Japanese wanted to create a sport version of JJ and lessen dangerous moves.

The Japanese wanted to move away from violence after the sufferings of wars.

Maeda a japanese Judoka who was practicing still the old kodokan style of judo and who studied samurai texts, moved to Brazil and tough this much more effective style of fighting to the Brazilians.

The Brazilians took this system and through testing it in real fights (vale tudo) created modern BJJ.

[shinjukool]

That's the "story". But the truth is it's still judo (which Jigoro Kano amalgamated from Japanese jiujitsu ryuha).

"samurai texts"? Like what? I read, write and speak Japanese.

"japanese ... after suffering in wars." What wars? in the 1880's when Kano develped judo? wrong

Maeda was a kodokan judoka. that's it.

Google "M. Tripp Judo History" Google "George Mehdi" - started "bjj" with Helio G, left for Japan and studied with Kimura. He teaches judo in Brasil.

[GJJFan]

LMFAO BJJ = Judo!!! ROFL

NOT dissing Judo but Bjj = JUDO?? C;mon now, really?!?!!!! JUDO is DERIVED FROM JIU-JITSU (not that jujutsu spelling crap that came out in the 1950's) Kano even stated that he didn't think that Newaza(ground technique) was as important as the throws and takedowns. He brought in many JIU-JITSU masters to help expand on his, at the time, still developing art.

Judo is simply another STYLE of Jiu-Jitsu as is BJJ is ANOTHER STYLE of Jiu-Jitsu!

plain and simple

[shinjukool]

Duh.

Kano took various techniques from jiujitusu ryu ha to make Judo. Maeda (who taught the Gracies) was a Kodokan Judoka yondan ... he had no license in any jiujitsu ryuha. none. A judoka. He taught them judo.

"BJJ" is judo newaza. They just focus on it in training.

[GJJFan]

OK, but if you look at it like that, then technically it was KANO'S VERSION of JIU-JITSU which he CALLED JUDO, that was taught to Maeda and ALL of his students EVER! I am NOT saying that BJJ is NOT the same as Judo in MANY ways. BUT each has it's own nuance that makes it unique. JKD is a collection of techniques from Kung Fu, Boxing, Kickboxing, with elements of Shootwrestling, Judo/Jiu-Jitsu and wrestling to create a style. Why is JKD not simply called shootfighting instead of JKD?

[GJJFan]

Well, since Maeda started off training in Sumo before he went over to learn from the Kodokan, at Waseda University. Does that mean that he might have taught them some sumo as well? I've never argued that BJJ was NOT Judo in some manner, but to say that Judo was not based in techniques derived and created in TRADITIONAL JIU-JITSU is just absurd! I've always been thankfull that the Gracies were taught elements of Judo. But not as thankfull as KANO learning Jiu-Jitsu!!

[shinjukool]

You can go round in sophistic circles all day but wont going change the facts. It's judo newaza taught by a 4dan Kodokan Judoka. Google "M. Tripp Judo History" Spot on. For marketing the G's claimed specialness. It's Judo and if you read what I wrote yes Jigoro Kano assembled old jiujitsu ryuha waza into a new sport/art but he changed the method of practice - less kata more rondori. However, G's add nothing sufficiently material for it to be another art. Judo. Renaming it wont change it.

[GJJFan]

FIne call it what you want. Giving it a different name means nothing as you said. I've never denied the greatness of KANO or Maeda and that the Gracies DID learn judo, yes. But they only studied under Maeda for a year. Now, is it POSSIBLE to earn a REALL BB in JUDO in a year?? I doubt that! And, they went to other dojos to challenge and refine.

I AM open to learning about ALL martial arts. But, as I have said, I am grateful for Jigoro Kano inventing HIS JIU-JITSU, called JUDO!!!

[GJJFan]

And, as I have also stated, that if NOT for Maeda training with Jigoro Kano, then GRACIE jiu0jitsu would NOT be here! YES, I HAVE said it before and again! LOL All I have said is, for the judo folks to remember where THEIR lineage came from as well!

And about the Gracies studing with Maeda for only a year, is that they had to supplement but that JUDO was the CORE of their jiu-jitsu training!

[GJJFan]

All *I'VE* ever said to the JUDOKAs out there, was don't forget where YOUR art came from as well! ;-) Yes, without Maeda coming over and showing what he'd learned to the Gracies (his judo mixed with what he'd gained from his challenge matches) they would NOT have their jiu-jitsu. I had heard from several of the Gracies in interviews, discussions of the family history, that they choose Jiu-Jitsu instead of Gracie JUDO to honor the lineage of the art, JUDO, which they had learned. Not as insult.

[jf1gd2]

if they were really respectful they'd call it Gracie Judo cause there is no way that it is Ju Jutsu. Jiu Jitsu is some piss-poor Portuguese misspelling.

GJJ is nothing Ju Jutsu, it is Judo. If I am wrong show me where in the curriculum there are eye gouges, kicks, weapons, etc.

[ZO6]

i just typed a bunch of stuff but damn thing didnt post it...

anyways, i've found all this simply to be major misunderstandings.

jujutsu is the "common ancestor" so to speak.

from that came Kano Jiu-Jitsu.

jiu-jitsu and jujutsu are the same due to two versions of romanization or "spelling it how you say it" so Kano jiu-jitsu is specifically his form of jujutsu but then people started dropping off the Kano and generically called it jiu-jitsu such as in Brazil.

[ZO6]

in 1925 the japan govt renamed it from jiu-jitsu to judo, i assume due to the confusion of the word jiu-jitsu being the same as jujutsu but people thinking it's that ancestor when it really was Kano jiu-jitsu.

i think this is where people think that BJJ was derived directly from that ancestor, jujutsu, and not the lineage of judo.

Brazillian jiu-jitsu is pretty much then a Brazillian form of Kano jiu-jitsu.

if Kano jiu-jitsu is now called judo, then yea, it's Brazillian judo.

look wikipedia

[GJJFan]

Wikipedia is good for a base, but you need to find the overlap, to determine the true history and facts. (because Wiki can be edited by anyone) It was not the entire Judo curriculum in which they were taught. It was only a small portion, and as has been said by members of the Gracie clan, that it was mostly the Fosen Ryu which they were taught. Judo and Jiu-Jitsu are almost synonymous in nature. Most school that I ahve seen, teach Judo/Jiu-Jitsu(jujutsu). And are not really different.

[GJJFan]

Although what is slighty "funny" to me, is that people get mad that Kano developed a curriculum of practice and teaching. I've also seen folks saying "renaming won't change it". Well ya look at it that way, then what was the point of changing "Kano's Jiu-Jitsu" to Judo? It is because he thought up a DIFFERENT way to do the SAME THING. Pretty much what they Gracies did. They just call THEIR version, Jiu-Jitsu. Why can't people respect that? They never denied learning Judo from Maeda.

[GJJFan]

Do they contain the same techniques? ALMOST! BECAUSE the BJJ players are "redicovering" techniques that already existed under Kano's curriculum, so they are "re-adding" what was already there with Judo and the styles of jiu-jitsu, from which Judo came. So, most old school judokas recognize a LOT of the techniques from their system(s). But, just as some was "lost" decades, perhaps generations ago, are being "discovered" all over again. Use it to deveolpe yourself and your art, not the hate.

[GJJFan]

Remember it this way, Bruce Lee stated that what he did was not invent anything new regarding technique, he just developed a newer way of looking at them and putting those techniques together. He always gave credit for where the technique came from. I am very grateful that Carlos was taught the portions and techniques from Judo that Maeda was willing to show him. It gave the world a new view and showed us again, that to be real martial artists, we must ALWAYS progess and keep learning!

[GJJFan]

So, in essence, BJJ is STILL trying to reach the vast array of techniques that already exist(ed) in Judo.

[kirokyukan]

No the reason Kano chose Do vs Jitsu was to seperate his style from other schools which had gotten a bad name because of their misuse of Jujitsu. Your right about the Gracies not denying whom they learned from, but they did sort of try to cover it up in calling him a Jiujitsu master when they knew very well that Maeda was the Father of Judo in Brazil. They also referred to him as Count Koma, which only added to the confusion since this was only his nick name.

[GJJFan]

He did finally decide on it being called JuDO, but it was known as "Kano's Jiu-Jitsu" for many years.

Why would they try to cover anything up? They've always stated that it was Maeda that taught them. They learned but a portion of the JUDO system of which Maeda was a master of. So, did ya ever think that they didn't want to call it JUDO because they didn't KNOW the whole curriculum OF JUDO and thought that THAT would be more disrespectful?

His nick name was used by many, not just the Gracies

[GJJFan]

In fact, I have even seen his nick name spelled MANY different ways, even on sites that are on Maeda's biography and that have NOTHING to do with Jiu-Jitsu.

Do I think it ignorant and short sighted of those BJJ players that DON'T give Judo the proper recognition? Of course! But I also think it's sad to see so many Judo proponents disrespecting other styles as well. It's all about the student anyways, not the style.

And without the Traditional jiu-jitsu, Judo AND BJJ would not exist.

[kirokyukan]

As for the reason for them obscuring the truth is beyond me. Just like I don't understand why they claimed Helio (R.I.P.) to have been undefeated. One possible motive is marketing, which the Gracies are brilliant at. You see if you say we learned a littleJudo, then created this, most people would just go to a Judo Dojo.

[GJJFan]

Even Grandmaster Helio never claimed that he was undefeated. He even put Rickson's record into question himself. Saying that he though Rickson was "inflating" his record by counting practice, tournaments and fights to get his record.

Of course it was good marketing! Rorion is a LAWYER and he knew what he was doing to earn that green!

I too, wonder their reasons.

But, like all martial artists that have given a "name" to "their own style", it is no different.

[kirokyukan]

In the first UFC it is claimed by the Gracie anouncer/student/friend that Helio was an undefeated master. I cant think of the announcers first name, but I know he was a Macchado. Macchados are pretty much Gracie family, and would have been well aware of his losses.

[GJJFan]

It was Rorion's marketing of the UFC and his family's system. Helio did not speak or understand English, so I am sure he really didn't know what was being said other than what was stated to him by Rorion.

As far as the announcer for the first 2 UFCs, I am almost certain that it was a radio DJ that did the announcements of the fights and combatants.

[chastell]

It was Rich "Gman" Goins from a us radio station.

[kirokyukan]

In 50 yrs, if someone says they learned from "The Beast", it would take alot of research to find out who the beast was since they also told me he was a Pankration fighter.

Get it?

[kirokyukan]

First it's Fusen not Fosen. Second Mitsuyo Maeda only new Judo which although it did contain techs from Fusen Ryu Nobody is sure which techniques, if any were assimilated into Judo. The style of Newaza he was teaching came from Kosen schools not Fusen Ryu. The Gracies try to say Fusen ryu simply because this was the only style of Jujutsu that was able to defeat Kanos early students.

[GJJFan]

So I misspelled something doesn't make it untrue.

I've done lots of searching and searchign adn the statments reagarding FUSEN are stated on many sites, those MAINTAINED by Judokas, that it was FUSEN and YES KOSEN as well! It was MANY styles not just one.

They were never trying to claim to be better than the Kano students, considering that they were defacto students of JUDO since they learned from a Judoka master. We've always said that Maeda was a student of Kanos. Never said different.

[kirokyukan]

Actually Maeda was NOT a direct student of Kano. By calling the man Jiujitsu Master vs a Judo master, they were using a play on words. Further I got in to a discussion at work with BJJ player who actually believed Maeda to have been an actual "Count", since the Gracies version of history leads you to believe this if you only scratch the surface. He also argued that BJJ was taken directly from traditional Jujitsu. Why???

Because this is what the Gracies lead him to believe.

[GJJFan]

Really? And where did you find that Maeda was NOT somehow a DIRECT student of Kano's???

I did not take my information from a Gracie website. I've gotten my information from many JUDO websites, and from MAEDA'S OWN BIOGRAPHIES! lol So, I do not know where that came from.

As for you BJJ friend at work, sorry that he doesn't realize his arts REAL history.

And I did my research over years, with interviews, books, and visits to the schools and such. I've done what I can to help find the truth

[kirokyukan]

As far as my "research" says Tsunejiro Tomita was the instructor who Kano paired Maeda with. It's on plenty of sites including the wiki. Why would you bother highlighting "MAEDA'S OWN BIOGRAPHIES" since a biography is a second hand account of a mans life anyways, thereby no more accurate then any other article written on a person?

[GJJFan]

Well, it seems that no matter what is brought forth it will never be enough. Do you honestly think that Kano had no part in his development either? Considering it says that Kano spotted him and had Tomita teach him to show that "size does not matter"? It apparently also doesn't matter that the lineage goes from Kano/Tomita straight to Maeda? I am done trying to discuss this subject. There is apparently nothing that can be said. Biographies help us to learn about people along with history.

[d0itright]

right on and well said!

[GJJFan]

Thank you! Someone that understands a bit of history! :-) Yup, jujutsu was the term developed during translations done by scholars, who were translating Japanese in the late 1800's. Very good comment.

[GJJFan]

It has nothing to do with disrespect. They were ONLY taught the Fosen Ryu and NOT the full Judo curriculum. At the time, it was still considered "Kano Jiu-Jitsu" when Maeda had left Japan and went to Brazil. Although the have always recognized Maeda as a student of Kano's, he only taught them a portion of the system that Kano had (and was perfecting) developed. Yes, there are stricking attacks, weapon defenses, etc. If you've not taken any BJJ, then you would not know this.

[fumarin]

it looks like the one that Hidehiko used on Royce Gracie, But in full control.

[shinjukool]

yes. sode guruma jime. put him to sleep.

[jhelton0001]

Hmmm...guard in Judo...what's going on...maybe BJJ didn't create the position after all...makes you wonder what's going on in the world.

[ZUTOWI5]

why do they claim they did ? i thought all bjj was ancient judo/jujitsu teqniques modified by the gracies to use more leverage

[ojay67]

bjj is a modified form of japanese jiujitsu.judo specified in advanced,decisive techniques for combat.judo has secret techniques to kill.REMEMBER now judo is related to jiujitsu.

bjj is japanese jiujitsu just with a name in front.bjj is nothing new anyone could have modded a martial art for personal benefits.

but to break it down,bjj specializes mainly in ground game.

[GJJFan]

It is amazing how many people get "hurt and upset" on the FACT that Judo CAME FROM JIU-JITSU!!! It is even stated in MANY historical documents and even in interviews with JIGORO KANO HIMSELF that he took the best of the styles of JIU-JITSU and did what most people do with martial arts, he formed a cirriculum that would use the best of each to create and effective STYLE of JIU-JITSU and he CALLED IT JUDO!!!

It is an argument of symantics to think that judo is ANYTHING OTHER than jiu-jitsu!!

[GJJFan]

And YES if it "had not been for Judo, the Gracies would not know anything!" MIGHT be a "little" bit true. I am EXTREMELY grateful for the Gracies being taught the Judo/Jiu-Jitsu that they were. But, as there have been stated and documented in Brazilian history that there WERE other Martial Arts masters there before Maeda. (Even other styles of jiu-jitsu were being taught by Japanses immigrants there). They only studied Judo for about a year before they had to fill in the gaps with other schools

[shinjukool]

marketing; that's why.

[cygroltd]

As for George Mehdi he sounds a little bitter.

Judo is not very effective without the Gi.

In the street people do not wear gis especially in hot climates like Brazil.

The Gracies may have their flaws in their marketing strategies and exagerrated claims but they are the the ones who created a real revolution in reality fighting and BJJ is the core of this system .

It took judokas many years to start being able to effectively compete in mma and it's only the few who studied BJJ.

[shinjukool]

Mehdi sensei just saw through the BS and went to the source to study. Not everyone can do that though.

The G's indeed mass-marketed judo newaza for match fighting. No doubt.  But it's stil judo; not a new art.

Really? Yoshida (who is old) studied BJJ? Karo Parisyan? Nah. The point is judo schools that sufficiently emphasize newaza have not be so available, though that is changing.

Let's not forget too that 1 Japanese "wrestler" beat how many G's?

thanks for the discussion. out.

[GJJFan]

Judo is not a new art either.. Just a collection of movements borrowed from OTHER styles to creat A STYLE capable of being a form of self defense ON ITS OWN!

TO argue back and forth that JUDO is somehow NOT JIU-JITSU and that BJJ is ONLY Judo is preposterious!!! JUDO was and ALWAYS HAS BEEN movements taken from the various styles of JIU-JITSU studied by its creator (and developers!) To say that Jiu-Jitsu IS judo, well, just seems silly since Judo IS Jiu-Jitsu!!

LOL

[GJJFan]

That is true, but one thing people seem to forget,... People don't walk around NAKED either!! LOL Ya can use some techniques to grab a hold of a coat! Maybe a shirt?? I have seen some defensive classes (yes, BJJ based) were they mentioned this point when someone asked why we don't just practice withOUT the gi at all times. Learn EVERYTHING for ANY advantage could be the one that saves your life or the life of someone you care about!!

[GJJFan]

That is EXACTLY what it is!! I've enver heard of them claiming to have "invented" the guard position at all. Just that they brought it back as both a defensive and offensive position. I've seen pictures of leg control variants of "the guard" in both TRADITIONAL JIU-JITSU as well as old Judo photos.

[Acelif]

BJJ is an offshoot of Judo

[BigMcLargeHuuge]

he..he.. If you watch the whole volume you will see that the guard game here is just as advanced as BJJ and I am a BJJer(huh?). Open guard, spider guard, half guard, and pay attention to the various guard passes which are what we use today. BJJ used all Judo "kosen" techniques but maybe applying a different strategy or two. What seperates Gracie Jiu Jitsu is the full on combat style.

[jhelton0001]

I watched one the other day that was black and white and it was just like watching two Gracie black belts. I don't mean to sound against BJJ, cause I love it, study it and actually teach a beginner's class in it...but it amazes me at how unknowing a lot of people are when it comes to Judo.

[BigMcLargeHuuge]

You know what, I think all of the old school Brazilians will tell you the same thing. they are also very traditional in the way they run their classes. Don't step out of line because they will crush you. Great thing about all of this is how it is coming full circle. Now if we can get rid of the "badboy" bullshit that seems to be so prevelant, I think we will be much better for it.

[shinjukool]

Amen! Well said.

[GJJFan]

It is it really is. People see something popular, it's "new to them" and they think it was "invented" right then and there. ALL of the techniques in BJJ were ALREADY USED in JUDO, AND other styles of JIU-JITSU from which they came! To argue about "BJJ IS Judo" well then, you MUST agree that "Judo IS JIU-JITSU!" And I know I will get "noobs" arguing I am trashing Judo, but most will NOT see past the fact that I said "Judo IS JIU-JITSU" and NOT that I didn't say ANYTHING about "Judo = BJJ."

[cygroltd]

I think the Brazilians really expanded on the guard game and made it the center of BJJ and that was what made the big difference.

[shinjukool]

It's just a tactical and training emphasis on newaza for match fighting. do osae = "guard". never said they weren't good at applying judo newaza. I study "BJJ".

research. I read, write and speak Japanese which makes it easier...

[sheean42]

if you look closely, Hirata gives the uki (defender) a quick kiss. :) classic

i wonder if it would be a legal move... hehe

[saad1505]

woow this is amazing, submission from full guard!!!!

[xbxzxlx]

whatever you do, don't try that on anyone who knows how to use their hips. not only will they easily escape, but you'll probably get armlocked.

[xbxzxlx]

the submission from inside the guard, that is.

[RAxzibit]

ya i wouldnt recommend this on an experience bjj player.