Dinesh D'Souza & David Silverman Debate - Part 1

[ASexyChef]

This is the Truth about Religion, it can be a good thing, it can be positive, but Organized Religion can be the cause of destroying any country at any time. The founding fathers new that, his reference to colonial period, and the crazy shit christians did, yup thats when a religion sect controlled an area, they went bat crazy. You can have you Religion, it can be a great positive influence, but it can only be that way, if it has nothing to do with Government, Religion and politics are BAD

[ASexyChef]

This dumb fuck, my ancesters were Quackers, they were always against slavery, they are also the only christian group to get along and treat the indians were they lived like people, never fought them, very peaceful, they did come along or being to question slavery, they were always opposed to SLAVERY.. The aspect this guy ignores is the fact Slavery was not Race Based historically, its the west that started the Black slavery business, Arabs would enslave europeans at the time.... 

[heeki]

If you watch this video and your takeaway is that Dinesh/David is a moron, stupid and lost horribly, it means that you are brainwashed and so blinded by your tribalistic identity that you are not comprehending the substance of the debate. We can all agree or disagree but both Dinesh and David are good if not great debaters and this was a close and fascinating debate.

[ASexyChef]

@heeki Fuck off, Dinesh is a twit, first off by he's definition of Jefferson was not a Good Christian, well Sir Issac Newtons great religious revelations was the clear fact Jesus was not God, that learning Greek and studying the most early translations proved that the trintiy was clearly a construct of the catholic church.

[ASexyChef]

@heeki Next, Religions can be Good, but he never focuses on the pure fact the whole point of why the founding fathers wanted separations between church and state, what made the US overall a great nation, is its SECULARISM. lets talk about the Quackers my great great aunt is Mary Dyer, she is the only person in the USA to ever be

[ASexyChef]

@heeki Murdered by the state, in colonial times because of Religions, yup she was Hung for being a Quaker, in a colony were that was outlawed, its out of control crazy ass shit like that, that the founders figure out, Oooo yes Religions God as long as it has not real power, Organized Religion is horrible, it does crazy shit

[ASexyChef]

@heeki Sorry, Dinesh, fucks up allot of history in this debate, & he fully miss represents the ISSUE by ignoring the Truth. Religion can be a good or decent thing, as long as everyone is foremost free from any religion, ,The virtue that makes the USA such a great country is not anything to do with christianity, its all secularism!

[ASexyChef]

@heeki Sorry, if you do not grasp after getting I hope even the most basic high-school education in history, & studying government class, and they did not get you to realize that freedom from religions was the key factor, than they clearly failed you. I am a Theist, I think Christianity can be great for people, just not government!

[holio84]

Dinesh, for the LOSE, again !!

[bary1234]

I was positively surprised by the performance of David Silverman here. He kicked the ass of the superstitious moron. Problem here is that the superstitous moron is braindamaged beyond any hope for recovery.

[ACEdualblade]

What a fucking farce.

[northoforacle]

D'Souza should be arrested and charged with the psychological abuse of thousands of people.

[keewee1091]

OMG I WAS AT THIS DEBATE!! thats weird that i stumbled on this lol...this was a Penn University idk why KingsCollegeNYC posted this, but it was definitely in philly at penn u....awesome debate and dinesh was totally tripping over himself

[rAnC1dPsYcH0]

Ugh silverman... this debate only makes me wish christopher hitchens didn't die

[Hunter3457]

@carlindelco THANK YOU!!!

[Zenhumanist]

The vulnerable - that would be women who find themselves pregnant who aren't in a position to support a child or indeed more children. Not very compassionate towards their lives are you D'Souza ya sick fuck.

[OrlandoDibiskitt]

d'souza says he id going to talk only facts and then spouts a load of lies, specuations and conjectures. blimey :(

[sarainreno30]

I am disappointed that Silverman allowed D'Souza to get away with this claim. The bible was used to argue for slavery, trapping slaves in this Christian system for years and years.

[sykregen784]

Let me get this straight...D'Souza claims that the bible contains absolute morality and that christianity abolished slavery...so why does it advocate slavery? Wouldn't god get at least that right concerning morality? Dinesh...you're insane...

[parasitesarefunny]

David Silverman is a nasty JEW who hates Christianity and Islam yet supports the racist bigot state of Israhell.

Jews = Anti Christ

[R0YB0T]

@parasitesarefunny So Jesus is an anti christ?

[alika6855]

Dinesh fails, that and the poor lighting makes him look like Hitler at times.

[a7x1337]

I saw him debate on this topic against Alex McFarland last week. I am happy he dropped the abortion point, because you'll find many atheists opposed to abortion as well.

[brbhatta]

Silverman should be exiled to live in Islamic nations so that he would come to know how bad Christianity is...this man talks like a child who seems to have no idea about what is good and bad.

[83Hammerhead]

@brbhatta what's your point? That Silverman should not speak out against how Christians act in America?

[Gnomefro]

@brbhatta "Silverman should be exiled to live in Islamic nations so that he would come to know how bad Christianity is.."

When there's no need to choose between black death and cholera, you choose neither. That's how simple this is. Christianity is *not* "good", and we have terrible experiences with what happens when it gets mixed up with politics. That is why it's so important to oppose undermining the separation of church and state in the US and build up walls elsewhere in the world.

[colocolo1546]

Scumbag D'Souza, says that "At no point in this debate will I appeal to divine authority", then talks about "rights given by God".

[28rebotco]

Silverman does not state "the facts" in full. Only partial truth. Just for one instance = "Christianity opposes stem cell research". Christianity does not oppose ADULT stem cell research! He should get HIS facts straight for crying out loud. And how can he be so ignorant as to make a statement like, "Christianity does not like sex". Geeeesh. He looks more inteligent than he IS.

[estevancarlos]

@28rebotco I think both parties were exaggerating and generalizing their points.

[carlindelco]

@28rebotco LOL I know.. you're right. If he had his facts straight , he wouldn't be an atheist. 2) "Be fruitful and multiply" Doesn't like sex? He is atypical idiot . ah I mean atheist.

[patatepowa]

i cant listen to denish im cringing too much

[Brushles83]

silverman was great in this debate

[melonbarmonster]

@s2shephe I see how Kim Jongil grossly violates Silverman and other American atheist sensibilities but North Korea's atheism is as atheism as it gets. How you behave beyond your initial atheist position is your own business.

[yvranx]

4:44 to skip the intro.

[heeki]

Norway and Sweden?? Bastions of Christian worldview and Judeo-Christian values. For real atheism you have to look at the most atheist country in the world... North Korea.

[Drgamedood]

@heeki I love how you idiots will always credit Christianity when a secular society does just fine without religion or belief in God. And yet will conveniently ignore the USSR's christian roots when it suits you.

[heeki]

@Drgamedood All of Europe had 'christian roots' and you're the one ignoring inconvenient facts. USSR experienced this little thing called a revolution where they overthrew their czar and instituted an communist government with atheism as one of its core values. You might want to check out an obscure document called the communist manifesto if you don't want to take my word for it.

[vgerdj]

@heeki The USSR government was a totalitarian dictatorship, the people did not come to Atheism voluntarily. Can you point to, in the communist manifesto, where it says that Atheism is a 'core value', or that the state requires an individual to reject religions and/or gods. I know that Marx and Engels promoted Humanism, but where is the anti-religion?

[heeki]

@vgerdj I stated atheism was a core value of the USSR. Marx: "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people." "Religion is opium for the people. Religion is a sort of spiritual booze, in which the slaves of capital drown their human image, their demand for a life more or less worthy of man.: Lenin.

[vgerdj]

@heeki You are dishonest. Marx and the USSR were anti-religious, you then equated that with Atheism. This is why it is important to debate with theists. It is in your own words that you don't know what you are talking about. I pointed out that NKs are religious and worship their leader. That makes them NOT Atheists. You just can't live with the fact that they are just like you, just a different deity. I've screen captured this thread for posterity.

[chinamanspeakenlis]

@heeki you r an idiot n infact ignorant one.

[heeki]

@chinamanspeakenlis I've been to China and South Korea and have spoken with North Koreans. Tell me where you get your 'facts' and we'll see who has better facts.

[vgerdj]

@heeki How can N Korea be an atheist country when they all worship their leader as a god. Just because you don't believe that he is a god, they do. That makes them NOT atheist. To be Atheist, you have to believe there are NO gods. N Koreans do not fit the definition of Atheist.

[heeki]

@vgerdj I agree with you that the NK's are as illogical and superstitious but IMO that's attributable to human nature and not to their atheism. They are poor atheists but atheists nonetheless. To disclaim their atheism is like a theist claiming the crusades and religious wars and atrocities are not really "Christian" bc they violate Christian tenants.

[vgerdj]

@heeki NO, that's like saying that christians are atheists, they don't believe in Ra or Zeus. The NKs are theists, they believe their leader IS more than human, hence supernatural, or godlike. And they worship him. I think that qualifies as theist. Just because their beliefs are lumped in with your beliefs, under the encompassing word of theism, you want to distance yourself from them. You believe - their wacky religion is unlike my sane religion.

[heeki]

@vgerdj The NK propaganda office creates myths for POLITICAL purposes but no they do not believe that their dictators are deity. I've met NK's and spoken to them. And no they do not worship him. They are as atheist as you can get.

[vgerdj]

@heeki Right, so the documentaries and the videos of the recent death of 'our dear father' are not to be believed because you talked to a couple of NKs. Just like I don't believe theists about their god, I don't believe you. But more importantly, when a government enforces an atheistic policy, that is as wrong as a theocracy. People in Norway and Sweden and Japan are atheists by choice, forcing atheism on the populace is like living in Saudi Arabia. Totalitarianism by any other name?

[heeki]

@vgerdj You and I agree on the FACT that NK is a moronic and illogical government. But the FACT is that they are 99.999% atheists.

[vgerdj]

@heeki You can have your own opinions, you can't have your own facts. The NK government is a totalitarian dictatorship. They force their citizens to WORSHIP their leader. Similar to other religions that force their members to remain in the religion or face eternal torture. Look, no matter how you try to spin this, the fact remains that NKs have a religious devotion to their leader. That makes them ineligible as Atheists. Because they don't worship your god, does not make them Atheist.

[heeki]

@vgerdj North Koreans being atheists is a FACT. You're complaining about how they act and behave. You not liking the FACT that atheists are behaving badly(ie worshipping and killing people) doesn't make North Koreans theists. By that logic Christians would disavow all atrocities committed in the name of religion since it violates everything Christianity is supposed to be. NK is empirical proof that hypocrisy isn't an exclusively religious trait.

[vgerdj]

@heeki But Christians DO disavow all atrocities committed in the name of religion since it violates everything Christianity is supposed to be. No True Scotsman. You just pwnd yourself. You just don't 'get it'. You can't spin this. Everything you present here are just assertions, half-truths, or blatant lies. State enforced religious worship of "Our Dear Leader" is not Atheism. State enforced anti-religion is not Atheism.

[heeki]

@vgerdj LOL. I hope you have years of schooling ahead of you bc you need it. Atheists religiously worship their dictator and kill anyone who is not an atheist. That's empirical FACT.

[vgerdj]

@heeki Attack me personally, because your position is weak. Then, babble "Atheists religiously worship," does not make any sense. But even more astonishing, "kill anyone who is not an atheist." With that reasoning, there would be no theists left in the world, and this mind numbing discourse would be over. I'm educated in Science, Computers, and Engineering, but no amount of education can refute your willful lying.

[Deathfromtheskieslol]

24:30 "absolute power corrupts absolutely" - Dinesh D'Souza

So either god doesn't have absolute power or he is absolutely corrupt. Which is it?

[sparrow3210]

D'Sousa drives me crazy. He misrepresents facts and history, misquotes people, misunderstands his opponents on purpose, and just outright lies. People need to stop debating him. His tactics are dishonest and underhanded. At no time during this debate does he say why Christianity is good for America.

As Mr. Silverman points out, individual Christians have done good things. This is not because their religion told them to do it but rather because their own consciences did in spite of their Bible.

[heeki]

@sparrow3210 LOL. What you really mean is that D'Souza uses history and facts to draw conclusions you don't like. I think D'Souza is a tool and a rather annoying person but frankly he's a really good debater.

[MrTruthseeker45]

Unfortunately, I don't think David hasn't get the point when it comes to choice and science. First off, Christianity doesn't oppose science because it is bad rather it is American Politic that disregard education for both theist and non-theist because funding for war and to safeguard their checks. Secondly, fact holds no truth because like theory and evolution it changes so much that even some of my atheist friends agree that is true.

[Deathfromtheskieslol]

@MrTruthseeker45 Can you try that again in English?

[MrTruthseeker45]

@Deathfromtheskieslol In which form secular ignorance or the English I'm speaking which seems to have no misspelling or sentence fragment yet the language you desire cannot be obtain nor shall ever be spoken by anyone with common sense. Besides, all David was just repeating the same statement every atheist speak and that's not being original. "Oh, Christians did terrible things. Look at the history" Tolerance is the only most non-believers has a problem to coup with.

[Deathfromtheskieslol]

@MrTruthseeker45 I hope English is your second language because I have no idea what you're trying to say.

[MrTruthseeker45]

@Deathfromtheskieslol and I hope you're joking about English being a second language because again there was nothing I said in my statement that produce no misunderstanding of anything I'm talking about. It would best if we don't response to each other anymore since one of us has to be the mature one so have a good day. :)

[vgerdj]

@MrTruthseeker45 I concur, it is difficult to follow what you are saying. Your education in American English is in question. Your statement reads as if it was translated, because an educated American would not speak nor write like you did. Because a 'grammar checker' gives a paragraph a pass, it doesn't mean that it will make sense. Example: " Look at the history" Tolerance is the only most non-believers has a problem to coup with." This passed, but I have no idea what it means. Oh, it's 'cope'.

[Deathfromtheskieslol]

@Deathfromtheskieslol " Tolerance is the only most non-believers has a problem to coup with." LOL! WTF is that supposed to mean?

[pandurate]

I got to "There is a theology imbedded in the Declaration of Independence", then I had to choose either to turn it off, or engage in violent projectile vomiting. This guy claims to talk "facts" but he's so full of it I cannot take it. But it's typical because when you're defending what he is, you have no other method at your disposal.

[isamu135]

Dinesh: "Even today I would argue that science is making spectacular new discoveries that vindicate and support the idea of a creator"

I lol'ed XD

[leffehoegaarden]

It's the Asian Mr Bean!

[filorps]

the "State" is run by the people. So.. Liberals are legislating that the poor and weak are taken care of. I think that counts as caring, even if Dinesh thinks it doesn't

[filorps]

I really think that the core of the United States pre-dates Christianity and dates back to the Greeks and Democracy... but what do I know?

[tnordloh]

I miss the evil goatee.

[tubragnar]

Silverman is a fresh new voice in the debates, but I think he's being far too generous and kind to D'Souza, who obviously has no respect at all for facts, truth or history.

[heeki]

@tubragnar You're confusing facts with assumptions. You obviously have zero experience with academic debates.

[carlindelco]

Sweden 2010, about 70% of Swedes are members of the Church of Sweden .. where does this guy get his"facts"? @33:32 Yeah, we do have a pretty good idea what the country would look like without religion France 1789, 600,000 murdered, raped, butchered all in the name of "reason" reason of insanity I suppose. he is comparing us 312 + million to Sweden's 9 million? That's like a city here? The debate between science and religion is like saying crayons are the best artist. science has no morality.

[SkinnyMinnieModel]

@carlindelco He gets it from legitimate demographic polls like the Eurostat Eurobarometer poll. Also, the citizens of countries like Norway, Sweden, etc are typically registered into the church at birth. So, it's pretty clear that based on the polling, many haven't chosen or don't even care to intentionally unregister despite their lack of religious beliefs. It is practically common knowledge that Sweden is the most atheistic European country. Look it up.

[Gnomefro]

@carlindelco "science has no morality"

While that's true, the best morality is still based on science, simply because it's science that produces teh best understanding of factual problems and how they impact humans. On the flip side, Christianity has no morality at all. What it has is a divine command theory and threats of torture. Which, by the way, can easily be adopted as "motivation" by secular governments as well, without introducing superstition, if that's what you think morality is.

[carlindelco]

@Gnomefro RE:"the best morality is still based on science," ??? really, ok then survival of the fittest, are you for that, liberal? Science is devoid of morality. Science produces people who subscribe to eugenics.. no one other than an atheist would condone that, which now shows why it's dangerous to have people like you in power.

Christianity which has the ten commandments has no morality? You guys really are stupid.. I never realized just how dumb you were.

[blowfly02]

@carlindelco

you should read moral landscape by sam harris

[carlindelco]

@blowfly02 LOL Yeah ok, morality can NOT be determined by science anymore than than using math. It's just another attempt to displace God, by use of another flavor of intellectual candy apples to lure people away. God is the author of morality AND the laws of nature.

[loremdolorfu]

@tubragnar Yes. Dinesh doesn't do facts.

[tubragnar]

Ouch! Christianity lived alongside slavery for almost 2000 years! Christians own slaves until 1865 and Christians fought a bloody civil war to prolong slavery. Yet, somehow, we're to thank Christianity that slavery was finally abolished.

Never mind that abolitionism directly followed the enlightenment!

Never mind that Thomas Paine, America's foremost abolitionist, was a deist, the contemporary pc term for atheist.

Wow, Dinesh! You really are a piece of work! Facts... Who needs them?!

[carlindelco]

@tubragnar What are you smokin? The term Deist back then was someone who believed that there was a God. atheist can't understand the concept, and therefore do not believe in God. Lincoln was a Christian , the south then like today liberals demoncrats prolonged slavery. I lie how you leave out the FACT that modern slavery was occurring in Africa 300 years before Europeans even set foot on the continent! Or that the absence of God, leads to 100 million deaths, mao, stalin, hitler, etc

[tubragnar]

@carlindelco You're of course right that a deist is not the same thing as an atheist, but the point I was trying to make is that during the day of Thomas Paine, no one would dare call him/herself an atheist, but a deist is the closest you can come to an atheist, while still professing some sort of belief in a deity. Paine certainly had no respect for christianity. Lincoln was not a member of any christian church, but his beliefs are shrouded, since he didn't profess belief. He did admire Paine.

[tubragnar]

@carlindelco

And I never claimed christianity caused slavery, just pointed out that the christian world approved of slavery for almost 2000 years. The bible shows us the Jews had slaves long before christianity. As did the Romans, Egyptians, etc...

The absence of god doesn't lead to anything, but funny you should mention Hitler... A christian dictator who led a christian nation to commit genocide, based on 2000 years of antisemitic propaganda from the clergy.

[heeki]

@tubragnar Hitler was a crackpot who believed in ghosts, phrenology, and social Darwinianism. Do you really want to use conjectures about Hitler's beliefs to win arguments on youtube??? Abolitionists in US and UK were Christians. Whoopee doo. Let's move on.

[carlindelco]

Silverman typical smug sarcastic,insulting atheist he even has contempt for the audience. You don't open up an alleged intellectual debate with mockery, it shows that you are a child.nothing new. When you really don't have a strong position to defend , you attack and smear. If Christianity is at fault for saying what is moral, what are atheist? LOL hypocrites, they want THEIR view on morality which doesn't have ANY standards This guy is a joke, he needs to get his head petted by the audience.

[parasitesarefunny]

@tubragnar

Jews ran the slave ships here in America with the Negroids and Jews ran the slave ships that enslaved the Irish at the same time as Negroids.

Jews current religious book supports slave ownership.

The word SLAVE comes from SLAVIC, since the Slavic people were constantly enslaved by guess who... JEWS.

Israhell is the LARGEST White Sex Slave trade Nation on Earth.

Jews enslaved and murdered MILLIONS with Jew Communism.

[OkamsRazer]

@tubragnar Paine was a Deist that is true, but Deist and Athiest are NOT synonyms. Deists are what you would call a "Agnostic Theist". Gnostic and Theist are two seperate terms. Gnostic literally means "knowledge" and Theist means "belief".

An agnostic theist would be someone who is a believer in a God but asserts that knowledge of the god in question is unknown. Deists as a group believe there is a Divine aspect to the Universe but make no claims regarding knowledge of that god.

[OkamsRazer]

@tubragnar a Gnostic Theist would be someone who not only has the belief in a god but is also making an assertion they have direct knowledge of the god in question. An example of this would be for example an Christian Apologist such as William Lane Craig.

The nature of "theism" is frankly the "Easy" one to go with since it doesnt require knowledge or evidence. Its the gnostic aspect of your religious views which determine the nature of your belief.

[OkamsRazer]

@tubragnar He lies about the nature of Christianity being "anti-slavery" since the Torah establishes very clearly that God decreed specific characteristics of slavery. Their god HIMSELF declared slavery as being moral. Those Christians who wanted to abolish the presence of slavery from this Great Experiment that is America were in essence defying their God's decree.

[ASexyChef]

@tubragnar Diest would be possibly be relatively Agnostic there was no need to be that P.C at the founding of the USA. Its honestly was less Religious Politically than Today, atheists were actually more common if you do not know during that time, it was a huge movement during the french revolution which was going on at the time. Thomas Paine may of been an Atheist in realty, judging from his writings, but the other figures who were Deist, like Jefferson, would not atheistic by any means.

[ASexyChef]

@tubragnar If you do not actually know, Religion in the US, swings, from like the colonial period, were people went religiously crazy, so many of the founding fathers were very anti religion, faith was one thing but you had founding fathers saying I wish every church was a lighthouse so it would have a purpose, so during and after the revolution, Religion kind of went away politically, until around andrew jackson than there was huge revivals, it got into politics big time, you have these cycles

[commandermudpie]

Good Job David. D'Sousa is a very clever guy and slippery as an eel. Also, this topic is very broad and it's general nature makes it hard to pin down. "Is Christianity Good for America" has lots of logical baggage. Debaters have to agree on the definition of "good" as well as agree on what "Christianity" means in this context. Keep it up David... I'm a big fan.

[walkingphilosopher]

@commandermudpie Great to see a sportive atheist. I am somewhere in the middle actually, leaning slightly to deism, but yes this debate builds my respect for Silverman. I never heard of him before, but I admit his arguments are great. This leaves me wondering WHY on earth more atheists (the new atheist type) look up on Dawkins and the likes whose arguments are mostly ad hominems / strawman. Wish to see more thinking people (from both sides), because our understanding may then advance. Cheers!

[pandurate]

@walkingphilosopher If you think Dawkins relies on ad hominem and strawman arguments, I seriously doubt you've read his work.

[anthonyalien]

@thegoat .. respect is where its at! without it conversations like this couldn't take place. thanks for the reply!

[thegoat]

Great job by Dinesh!

[anthonyalien]

third! its good to see silverman debate i havent really got to hear him speak. to hear him debate dsouza is really cool. as time goes on i respect dsouza more and more, even though i dont agree with him at all..

[allan3141]

@thegoat Harris yes. Hitchens yes. Silverman yes. Atkins yes. Law yes. Milligan yes. Flew yes. etc etc

Dawkins, Toynbee, Grayling? No. Not now.

[walkingphilosopher]

D'Souza never fails to impress me. But the atheist here is not bad either. Interesting debate from both sides!

[MrItchyElbow]

Peter Singer :In 1979 he wrote, “Human babies are not born self-aware, or capable of grasping that they exist over time. They are not persons”; therefore, “the life of a newborn is of less value than the life of a pig, a dog, or a chimpanzee.”1

[nemirn]

@MrItchyElbow

How can anyone subscribe to theism when Baruch Goldstein was Jewish? He committed a massacre at the Cave of the Patriarchs. It’s scary to think how many people out there hold such extreme views.

Do you see how silly this is?