How Hollywood Gets It Wrong on Torture and Interrogation: P1

[Kersey475]

I completely agree that torture is very inefficient in extracting information, there is a reason why (in my opinion) it's acceptable in hollywood. Real interrogation is about negotiation and wordplay, but for a fast-paced action flick that would be too long, boring, and would upset the pacing. I think it's only okay if despicable villains get tortured.

Torture getting info is like accurately shooting akimbo pistols, it won't work in real life, but looks plausible enough for FICTIONAL stories.

[SuperStonedWeed]

so what this video is about, is how unrealistic TV is... RLY? it's a movie... nobody wants to see paper work or shit -.-

[givebirthathome]

Jerry Mander, Four Arguments for the Elimination of TV.

TV-free America.

"You Are Your Child's First Teacher"

Don't expose your kids to this poison.

The "Lost" producers were incredibly socially irresponsible to include this in their show. If torture is "visceral entertainment", why not pedophilia? At least that's against the law to show on TV...otherwise, they would have, if they thought it would make money.

[Halo6406]

I want to become an agent just like Jack Bauer to do what ever is necessary

[Halo6406]

I want to become an agent just like Jack Bauer..... To do what ever is necessary!

[B7ACKNEONder]

Do people who watch 24 connect the dots and understand that slow encapsulating feeling of emasculation and humiliation. For f**k sake, I even sound as though I've been watching too much fuckwittery of late :)

[B7ACKNEONder]

Turn a blind eye to torture and that is the end of your DNA.

[lordofwrath88]

bette rule, your not allowed to torture unless your last name is Bauer or Norris

[mickdukes]

What these people don't seem to understand is that when certain humans (terrorists) do their best to deprive other humans (civilians) of their rights, they (the terrorists) give up theirs. What's more important, the lives of innocents or some radical's state of comfort? If it means saving millions, why cry out if we waterboard some potential murderer?

[savednorwegian]

@mickdukes you dont understand the concept and principle of both the constitution and human rights.

you will fit good as a "secret interrogator"...just get a uniform on and a security clearence and your good to go, i hope you get your satisfaction and release

men are truly beasts and all we need to do this is just a "reason" from authority of somekind(tv, job,government,court system,army,police,school,fami­ly/friends) and the beast is let go

[mickdukes]

@savednorwegian, Knowing that you're quite surprisingly a fellow Christian, I have to say, with all respect, I think I as an American would better understand the concept of my constitution than a Norwegian. I'm in college and have no desire to become a secret interrogator. All I'm saying is terrorists (in current affairs anyway) are even worse beasts than the men interrogating them. Again, let them pull fingernails or deprive sleep if it means saving lives.

[savednorwegian]

@mickdukes lets be friends on yt(im not kidding though it sounds like it)

well i too believed what you say but i stopped watching tv that much and God has changed alot in me, however im far from changed all around. i get your point but no reason can be good enough to torture im sorry. but what makes everything complicated if you understand me correct is that if any stranger or cop or anybody wanting me harm came into my appartment, if i could get to weapon or something i would have def myself

[mickdukes]

@savednorwegian, For sure, glad we didn't get into some heated argument... look, I absoluely wish that torture wasn't necessary, but it's a necessary evil in this kind of war. But you and I are both looking forward to the day when none of this will matter anymore! And yeah, people are bound to abuse laws and take advantage of people, and I'm with you on that. Take it easy and God bless.

[vincentkjones1]

Can these idiots just please move back to their dream land East Germany. Please stop wasting memory space on any computer or server in this country. I mean who do you think you are talking to you xxxxxxxxx xxx aholes. Just crawl back into your little obama wonderland and stay there. Sorry about the French, but really!

[jaaagosto]

Remember Captain West, Shot a gun next to the terrorist ear and he coughed up where the ambush of Our U.S. Troops is going to be

[soccom8341576]

This kind of torture is one big overstated part of a failed defense strategy. It fails because there is no other way.

Sure, in every war people like to be sadistic to their enemy. HOwever, it doesn't work in real life.

Goes to show how stupid some considerably intelligent people have become.

[Thadumas]

Why do Americans feel that they matter more than anyone else? What makes Americans sure that their country deserves to survive?

[1997074]

Fuck you

[Thadumas]

Yeah,you AND your Mom WISH you could fuck me,punk. And another thing, that flag you worship belongs to a nation that MURDERED 3 innocent prisoners at Gitmo on a particular night in 2006,by stuffing rags down their throats....this,of course,was followed by a system-wide cover-up which is still in full effect. You either just don't care about something like that,or you're too stupid to know when you're being lied to. Blow me.

[deecunt]

However, this issue is extremely sensitive.. and any decisions made by clear conscious interrogators in the field.. cannot be second guessed by people who were not there and were not experiencing the situation in person.. as Robert Ludlum said.. you cannot second guess decisions made in the field from an arm chair.

Human Rights Organisations are good org. to have.. however instead of always trying to stand in the way of the army.. they should try to work together to resolve these issues.

[deecunt]

Looking at inflicting pain on a subject in order to gain information crucial to an investigation, when all other means have been used.. is sometimes the only resource interrogators have to turn to when times are crucial.. Therefore the issue's lie in 2 main areas: 1) what times are "considered crucial" and 2) what information is worth this process. These areas must be looked at with great scrutiny because without these stringent guidelines, interrogators wouldnt know where the boundaries lie..

[trickplay96]

Stop Terrorist!

If hooking up one terrorist prisoners testicles to a car battery to get the truth out of the lying bastard will save just one life, then I have only three things to say, Red is positive, Black is negative and Make sure his nuts are wet.

[boijorzee]

People like you are part of the problem.

[allgoo19]

So, this is where pro-torture opinions are coming from, a TV show?

You know there are people believing they can jump out a window and fly because they watched Superman? And they belong either in a hospital or a coffin.

"Give me Dick Cheney and an hour, I can have him confess Sharon Tate murder by waterboarding him." : Jessie Ventura

Besides all of this, what Dick Cheney wanted was a false information he wished, not the truth. How useful is that? Totally stupid.

[oista800]

Hehe, I especially liked the torture method in Taken where he sticks the electrical rods in the dudes legs x]

[gameragodzilla]

guys, your talking about a terrorist who doesn't give a **** about human rights. torturing a torturer is justifible. Even if we dont get "true" information, we still can get some payback for every soldier that died a terrible death from being tortured by a terrorist.

human rights, my ass. It should be american safety first, terrorist welfae second. If someone was gonna freaking BOMB us, then we have to do everything that's necessary to stop it, not worry about human rights.

[Exitus767]

So you're fine with being the same level of criminal as a terrorist? What a wise and critical person you must be. Torture dose not help us meet our goals nor dose it bring us justice. It does not make us safer. It does not protect our troops, quite the opposite in fact. All it does is give a little satisfaction to dumb wannabe savages like yourself.

[gameragodzilla]

i'm not saying torture protects us. i'm saying torture gets us some payback for what the terrorists do to our troops. these guys will torture our troops whether we torture them back or not, so the most LOGICAL thing to do is to torture them back for some payback for our troops.

and i take back my "torturing not gaining info" comment. with our lie detectors, we can tell if someone's lying or not, and therefore determine if they do or don't know something.

torturing a torturer is ok.

[OrmEmber]

If an Al Qaida or other muslim operative saw his wife and children threatened with death, he would be delighted; because if they were killed, they would go to Paradise as martyrs, and he would look like more of a hero letting them die. One man in Iraq put a bomb belt on his wife, and told her to go the market and blow herself up, because he didn't feel like dying that day. She wore the bomb belt to the market and turned herself in to the police. Threats don't work with fanatics....

[lorettab77]

ROFL....The makers of this video are the same as the "real" life adversaries. They make up all sides. They are the terrorists and they are the those who cause us to fear the terrorists. It's a GAME! You want to stop this madness. Don't watch TV. Don't enlist. Don't support CORPORATIONS. Read, research. Don't eat or buy trash nonfoods. Don't believe what you have been told in schools/tv/press/radio. They are the MindFUCKERS!

[anubis9109]

@lorettab77 Yes on some, no on others, IDK on the rest. Don't be some extreme man.

[marktwain4president]

Please, can somebody tell me what the opening guitar piece is called? It's fantastic, I'm desperate to know the name of it...

[vlada131]

It's called "Asturias", or sometimes "Leyenda" (the alternative title), by Spanish composer Isaac Albeniz

[gworksnell]

I'm glad you're not racist, but please find something else to talk about cortmeister. This doesn't involve you. I, along with several others I have shown your videos to..kindly ask you to shut the fuck up.

This is not your battle and we don't need you to help us.

[ThemedAttraction]

These people are namby pamby liberals that will get Americans killed.  Viva la Jack Bauer!

[MeritisDE]

Jack Bauer is no "hero".

No suprise that Keifer Sutherland is a right wing tool.

[funkor]

Great video.

[doxide]

Arguments like that don't even make sense. How the hell have they 'won'? Only the naive think they can keep their hands clean and still be safe.

Since when has being 'American' meant treating terrorists with courtesy? I love my country, which is why I believe we should do whatever it takes to keep it safe.

[USkicksass]

Completely agreed. A good friend of mine is ex spec ops (Vietnam) and I asked him for his personal opinion on the subject. He said of course it works; the info is verifiable and and that there are plenty of ways to prevent future lies. And it's not like France, Britain, and German y have a REAL good record on torture anyways.

[gagolplap]

human rights can, and do, often impact the greater good negatively. torture is a necessity. as long as fanatics exist, torture will be moot fact.

the danger lies in setting boundaries regarding evidence and just cause, especially with US policies.

Anyone who believes we don't need torture, ever, is deluding themselves.

Anyone who believes innocent people don't get tortured, often and for no good reason, is also deluding themselves.

[ChudFapper]

People who oppose torture are the most evil creatures on earth. They would sacrifice thousands, or even millions of innocent lives, so that one murderer doesn't suffer.

[tIhIoImIaIs]

Torture is not an answer to terrorism, it´s the reason. Even if there would be a "ticking time bomb" scenario, which i definetly doubt, what could u do with a last minute information ??? Make a call and say: "Run! It´s gonna blow!" ??? No, u can´t stop it, even if u want to. Torture only creates the illusion of control over an uncontrolable situation. Keep ur HUMANITY! Do NOT torture.

[danielraul1989]

mash his left testicle if he still don't talk, ahh what am I saying he's talking before you do it

[cmmndrblu]

How would you distinguish between an Al Quaida operative trained not to give away information in an interrogation and an innocent civilian caught with no knowledge of what the interrogator is asking him?

[ExodusNJ]

There's certain guys you KNOW are operatives. Like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. Is it ok to torture him? Afterall, he did mastermind the WTC bombing.

[Darusdei]

so basicaly you are saying eye for an eye?

and then you sit on your sofa and praise americans values?

[doxide]

No, I'm not saying eye for an eye. I'm saying a god damn head for an eye. And you know what? I'm willing to sacrifice my American values if I know that my family can sleep safely at night.

[Darusdei]

Then you are no different than them and they have already won.

when you're lost that way, you dont have the moral highground anymore and you become fairgame

[Jagged85]

Even if the prisoner is a real criminal like the one you speak of, torture is still counter-productive, as the prisoner would only end up telling you what you want to hear instead of the truth.

[USkicksass]

Then you kick the shit out of him after you verify the information as false. Think about it, if torture didn't work, then why the hell would we even use it? Why would almost every other nation use it if it wasn't effective? All these countries (Germany, France, Russia, etc) criticize us for torture, well a walk in the park compared to some of their own methods, and we actually heed their complaints.

[Jagged85]

All of that is a myth. The majority of professional interrogators have themselves stated that they never resort to torture, and the reason they don't is because it would be counter-productive.

[USkicksass]

So if they never resort to torture... then they'd have a good reason to do so because they aren't getting any information... so then what the hell is the problem? You're basically saying that we rarely resort to torture; when we do we must have a good reason. The well being of my enemies is not my concern, and I want whatever method keeps my family safe.

[Jagged85]

How is torturing your enemy supposed to keep your family safe? Have you even watched this video? Real interrogators themselves have clearly stated that torture is counter-productive. Building a relationship with the prisoner is far more productive in the long run.

[USkicksass]

Yeah, making friends with these guys is exactly what works and what they deserve. What I said was that we should use the best method possible to keep the country safe. To me, the argument isn't whether or not we should torture people, it's whether or not torture is effective. And from what I've seen it is.

And until everyone else stops it I see no reason for us too. Our form of torture is nothing compared to what Russia, Al quaeda, China, and others will do to extract information.

[Darusdei]

Torture is not effective, it never has been.

and the US to allow torture... well, when you stare in to the abyss the abyss stares back.

if you dont understand what that means i would advise to be quiet since your IQ doesnt

meet the requirements to participate in this conversation and thus only making you look even more of an idiot...

[USkicksass]

Ah, I disagree with you, so I must be an idiot? Tell me this, if torture is so ineffective, then why do so many countries use it? Surely asking them nicely while holding their hand must work better, right? You say torture doesn't work, but what is your solution? How would you get information out of America's enemies?

[Darusdei]

Torture doesnt work, these "ticking time bomb scenes" doesnt happen in real life

start torturing and i quarantee that ur family is not safer, if u become like them

you have negative image and the ones that u consider friends might not be so likely to help you... like it or not you need allies

let ur values decline and just see what happens, Bush sank your reputation...

[USkicksass]

When US special Forces raid a house and capture a terroist leader, it's not as if his friends aren't going to notice his absence. We need to get the information of what he was doing and who he was working with fast, so that we can hit other targets revealed by interrogation. In this war on terror, time is crucial. Our enemy is smart and determined, and they won't sit around and wait to die.

[USkicksass]

By the way, the US uses mostly psychological torture, with the exception of waterboarding. You talk of how our "values" will decline. If you measure our values by how we treat people who want to kill us, then yeah, we have pretty shitty values. Then again, I guess it's perfectly fine for Russia to dismember Chechens or Al-Qaeda to behead US soldiers, right?

And I'd like to see what you'd do instead of torture.

[Darusdei]

First of all lets not forget that you actualy created the taleban and al qaeda and supported them heavily when russia was in afghanistan and now it has become a problem...

Have you ever been in the army mate?

if terrorists capture one of your soldiers and tortures him and tries to get information about ur army... they will fail and why is that?

because you wouldnt know shit about any operations or plans

[USkicksass]

So you're saying that they'll tell you everything they know?

And considering the fact the USSR was far more formidable than the Taliban I'd say it was worth aiding them to cripple the Soviet economy. America should have done more after the war in terms of aid and etc to rebuild they're country, but that would be "nation building" and we can't have that now can we?

[Vyan1]

Torture generates lies and false confessions. Ibn Sheik Al Libi and Abu Zubaydah both LIED TO US about Iraq's WMDs and link to Al Qeada.What you'd do instead - is use you brain to build trust and a common bond so that the detainee is willing to tell you the Truth. That's how Special Forces interrogator Matthew Alexander help find Abu Musab al Zarqawi. You NEVER need to resort to Torture. Ever.

[USkicksass]

So you're saying that we we become their friends, maybe get them a latte and a massage. A good friend of mine was a sniper in the USMC during Vietnam- I asked his personal opinion on the matter and he said that that it's very effective. And if it's not, then why would so many other countries such as Russia and China do it?

[Vyan1]

Russia and China did it get *False* Confessions in order to justify their totalitarian policies. If that's what you want- if works fine, if you want the truth - that's another matter. The interrogator who captured Abu Musab Al Zarqawi did it through rapport building and creating respect and trust with his detainees. The real professions in the field, not the snipers, the INTERROGATORS, use this effectively all the time.-CIA Inspector General's Report from FBI Director both say we got zip.

[USkicksass]

Sure, they use it to get false confessions, but they also use it to get actionable intelligence. I don't give a flying fuck about the livelihood of detainees and I know for a fact that pain works. You can only lie so much and eventually you fuck up, eventually you lose your cover story.

Hell, American torture methods are so mild compared to what other countries. I'd beg for a waterboard if captured by Russia, China, or North Korea. You also state that Zarqawi was captured,but he died June 7,06

[Vyan1]

No, they haven't gotten "actionable intelligence" because you can't trust the accuracy of what someone tells you under torture. PEOPLE LIE, they'll say anything to make the pain stop. al-Libi was buried alive and told us Saddam had WMD and was training al-Qaeda on using them. He lied. FBI Director Mueller, FBI Agent Soufan (who interrogated Zubaydah successfully without torture) and even DNI Blair all say that anything they did lean, could have been learned with other methods. TOTAL FAIL!

[USkicksass]

Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was broken by waterboarding, it's effective. Do you think we let them get away with lying? We verify their claims by observing how much of the truth they tell and how often their story is the same, and we determine whether or not they're lying. If so, then we waterboard them again and again until they tell the truth. Therefore, lying doesn't stop the but but prolongs it. Telling the truth ends it.

Besides, I'd like to see what alternatives you come up with!

[Vyan1]

No, he really wasn't - not if it took them 183 tries. You are *Imagining* that they go verify the data - but we got info from al-Libi that was wrong, from Curveball that was wrong, and from Zubaidah that was wrong. Remember the "Weapons of Mass Destruction" - wonder why they didn't find any? Torture is why.

[USkicksass]

Are you joking? 183 tries merely means that they were resilient, not that torture doesnt work. I hardly call water boarding torture in the 1st place anyways, but we will for now. I notice that you have yet to give me an alternative to torture or harsh interrogation methods in general. Did you hear or Musab Zarqawi's attempt on the American embassy in Jordan? He planned on using chemical weapons and they confiscated. He also ran a terrorist training camp in Iraq. Explain where he got these.

[Vyan1]

No, I did give you an alternative the techniques of building a rapport and trust that FBI Agent Soufan used to even *catch* Abu Zubaidah in the first place (Gave a diabetic detainee some food so he wouldn't go into insulin shock) There are the techniques that Mattew Alexander used. In fact, WATCH THE DAMN VIDEO you're commenting on - they give you lots of examples.

Also Waterboarding isn't "simulated" anything - it's Real Drowning and Suffocation - they don't stop, YOU DIE. Try with a pillow

[USkicksass]

It is simulated in that you dont die, you just almost die. You have a good point in other interrogation techniques, but they simply do not work, (as you stated with waterboarding) on every individual.

Lets say Zarqawi survived the bombing. Lets say he was at Gitmo right now. You're telling me that you expect to be his buddy after killing his family ina precision airstrike? Sometimes you have to waterboard.

[Vyan1]

Yeah, they only kill you a little bit - not quite all the way. You're argument is all fail, Waterboarding Zubaidah made him STOP talking, when he had already been giving us good information. General Taguba, General Sanchez, General Petreaus, General Powell are all against you - i trust them, obviously you don't.

[USkicksass]

You make a valid point, but I still have to disagree with you. Tell me this- why would we ever use torture if regular interrogation methods were sufficient to extract information from detainees? Are you saying US troops are just fucked in the head and enjoy torture?

[Vyan1]

No - because a) They think LIKE YOU and clearly don't know the law and b) They wanted them to Lie - particularly about Saddam being involved with Al Qaeeda - in order to justify the invasion. This is why Cheney suggested Waterboarding the head of the Iraqi Secret Police even though he was already cooperating. Fortunately, Charles Duelfer and his team didn't do it because there was no need.

[USkicksass]

So it was all a big conspiracy to invade Iraq?

Lets go back to some simple points.

Torture inflicts pain. People dont like pain, and they'd like it to stop, therefore they tell us what we ask. When they lie, you increase the dosage of pain. This isn't a guaranteed formula but merely a technique, it isn't used on everyone. There are plenty of cases where torture isn't necessary, but, like Khalid Sheik Mohammed, there are cases where it is. Mike Baker, former CIA agent, agrees with me.

[Vyan1]

Before he was even President Bush was saying "If I have a chance to invade - I'll have a good Presidency and get everything I want passed" - so yeah, they always planned to do it if they could find the excuse. They used torture to get it. Former CIA Agent Bob Baer (who *was* tortured) disagrees with you. So does FBI Agent Soufan (who did get good information), FBI Director Mueller, all the Generals I listed Previous and the CIA's Own Kubark Interrogation Manual.

Where's the WMD? They Lied.

[USkicksass]

Right. So did Hillary Clinton, Al Gore, and John Kerry all lie as well?Or were they deceived by the evil Bush administration. Congress had access to the same info that Bush did and agreed with him. You're telling me that Bush somehow managed to fool congress? Please.

I would have made the same decision.

Hell we waterboard Navy SEALs it isn't that damn bad. Did you know that detainees at Gitmo get 3 meals a day, all of which cost significantly more than food our own soldiers eat?

[Vyan1]

1) Al Gore wasn't in Congress during the vote for the Iraq War 2) No, Congress didn't get the same Intelligence information most of the parts of the Iraq NIE which pointed out that the Niger documents were a forgery, and the Aluminum tubes were harmless was CLASSIFIED and most of Congress couldn't even read it. Yeah, he fooled Congress and the UN and the American People. Navy Seal volunteer for S.E.R.E. school, people sold into captivity by Afghan Warlords (Uighurs) DIDN'T volunteer.

[USkicksass]

OK, I was just using Al as an example of someone who reversed their position on Iraq. And they got enough intelligence to make a decision, and they chose to Support Bush. The Legislative Branch is just as powerful as the executive, there's no way in Hell Bush fooled all those people.

And volunteer or not, its still not that brutal considering there are people willing to volunteer for it. Waterboarding may be torture, but just barely.

[johnbourbon]

personally, i don't care if it's effective or not. just give me a blow torch and a pair of pliers and let me draw my own conclusions.

one thing's for certain, after 5 minutes they'd beg me for a water-board...

[Tuppington]

jack bauer is a jack offer.

conspiracy = conservative + piracy

[topheavykoolaid]

stupid liberal

[Spartanmike23]

Waaaaaaaahhhh!! Ur magical world must be black and white.

[fridun007]

LOL Asturias as the theme?

[panthex]

You have to think about the time frame. In alot of tv programs, Theres is a small timelimit, 1 example.

In 24 they don't have alot off time, they need the information right away, you cant try to build a relationship in 2 hours.

I dont say torture is a good thing, but in that scenario they have build in 24. I cant see any other options

[Darusdei]

Yep but when ur in such a hurry your chances of gaining any reliable or even usable info is pretty grimm and the same time you are saying to all your enemies and allies "this is ok"

[Jagged85]

But that ticking time bomb scenario is a hypothetical situation that almost never occurs in reality.

[USkicksass]

How do you know? We almost never hear of failed terrorist exploits; hell, there was barely any coverage of the planned attack at Fort Dix and JFK airport.

[Jagged85]

Because that is what professional interrogators themselves have said.

[mysterywalker]

television is not much wronger on interrogation than on other things

[topheavykoolaid]

your grammar is not much "wronger" either

[mysterywalker]

my grammar is obviously the single most relevant factor to consider in regards to this issue

[ThoughtCriminal911]

Guantanamo Bay is a place of mass torture. How many other torture places does the us government have??. Too bad that most people are so easily brainwashed to believe that they are the good guys. bad guys of all sides should go to hell.