wow cool piece. I'm interested in unusual time signature, so I think this piece is great. But I have to admit also that it's great piece apart from the time signature. So thanks very much John Bull! :)
listening to riu riu chiu again, it's weirder than that. It's basically in cut time, but the refrain is in 2/2 -3/4- 5/4 - 3/2 if I catch it correctly. Also a lot of folk music is in odd time signatures like 7/8 - some of the Romanian and Hungarian folk songs that Bartok and Kodaly collected, but also some Appalachian fiddle music.
Nice! Although there's plenty of irregular beats in Habsburgian/German music of the 17th century. Take Schmelzer's "Harmonia a cinque" for example, also there's one sonata a 5 by Giovanni Valentini and one string sonata a 10 by a German guy whose name I don't remember at the moment. The latter even changes beats progressively until it arrives back at 4/4.
@JohnDowl I should be interested to know more. Im already in your debt for introducing me to Schmelzer's music & particularly his Sonata 'on the day of the fart' - about which, as yet, I have not been able to find more. I should be interested if you could give clear references for the other pieces.
I think you'll find Glinka and Tchaikovsky were doing unequal bars long before Stravinsky, hence Stravinsky and others were able to develop them, because they were part of their musical heritage!
@flibbertergibbet If you really want to be pedantic, it wasnt 'long' before Stravinsky, it was merely a generation - and I would incline to doubt that they had much influence on S, whose lifelong ability was to distil musical ideas AHEAD of the pack, not as a response to the experimentation of others. The issue here is that Bull's rhythmic experimentation was as sui generis AS Stravinsky's or as Gesualdo's tonal experimentation.
@maxwellsteer I'd like to point out the difference between pedantry and ACCURACY: with greatest respect, what you actually wrote is "Nobody before Stravinsky ever experimented with irregular bars". Not true!
@flibbertergibbet Well now, the issue would concern the word irregular. I dont know the piece/s of Glinka you're refering to, but is there anything other than the 5/4 movt in Pathetique in Tchaik? As far as Im aware even that movt isnt, strictly, 'irregular' bars since the metre remains constant. You could argue that that is also true of the In Nomine since the metric pattern is consistent, yet its notation as 4/4+4/4+3/4 validates my statement, unless you can Glinka me to the contrary!
@maxwellsteer Ah: here's our problem. We're both confusing a) regular but asymmetrical metres (e.g. extended passages of 5/4) with b) irregular metres (passages where the metre changes every bar or so). Glinka did the former in choruses from either Life for the Tsar or Ruslan (can't remember which), and Tchaik, as you say, in the Pathetique, whereas Mussorgsky did both in the Promenades from Pictures at an Exhibition and choruses in Boris and possibly the Stone Guest, if I remember correctly.
Beautiful job Max. I have a recording of this piece played by Pierre Hantai. I have listened to it dozens of times w/ great fascination. Thank you for providing additional insight into the music, and for putting out there for more people to enjoy.
My wide experience of early english keyboard music convinces me that the continental baroque convention of starting ornaments on the upper note does not apply. In at least half the cases of the dozens of ornaments in any given piece of english music it simply doesnt suit the character of the music and in an even greater proportion theyre actually unplayable.
Excellent piece! Technically rather demanding, but generally well done! Although I'd prefer the trills a bit more pronounced and starting on the upper note where appropriate. Excellent choice of music, this piece is played far too litlle.
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Tobbe999999999999999 1 month ago
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wow cool piece. I'm interested in unusual time signature, so I think this piece is great. But I have to admit also that it's great piece apart from the time signature. So thanks very much John Bull! :)
Tobbe999999999999999 1 month ago
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Tobbe999999999999999 1 month ago
11/4, was he drunk when wrote this?
Fervorum 1 month ago
<3 <3 <3
My very favourite kind of instrumental music!!!!
BlackHeartDarkSoul 2 months ago
Such flowing style....
mrdavethecomposer 2 months ago
listening to riu riu chiu again, it's weirder than that. It's basically in cut time, but the refrain is in 2/2 -3/4- 5/4 - 3/2 if I catch it correctly. Also a lot of folk music is in odd time signatures like 7/8 - some of the Romanian and Hungarian folk songs that Bartok and Kodaly collected, but also some Appalachian fiddle music.
gspaulsson 3 months ago
Actually, "irregular" time-signatures were quite common in renaissance music, cf. the 16th c. Spanish carol "Riu riu chiu" in 5/4 time
gspaulsson 3 months ago
Please listen to Mike Oldfileds 'Ommadawn' and tell me if you think it sounds relalted in some way.
comprehensiveboy 3 months ago
Nice! Although there's plenty of irregular beats in Habsburgian/German music of the 17th century. Take Schmelzer's "Harmonia a cinque" for example, also there's one sonata a 5 by Giovanni Valentini and one string sonata a 10 by a German guy whose name I don't remember at the moment. The latter even changes beats progressively until it arrives back at 4/4.
JohnDowl 4 months ago
@JohnDowl I should be interested to know more. Im already in your debt for introducing me to Schmelzer's music & particularly his Sonata 'on the day of the fart' - about which, as yet, I have not been able to find more. I should be interested if you could give clear references for the other pieces.
TouchSensitive 4 months ago
@TouchSensitive
You will find the Schmelzer Harmonia here on youtube: watch?v=XrDYquUZLdY
although this is a very static interpretation. I recommend the one by Freiburger Barockensemble.
Giovanni Valentinis Sonata a 5 is available on Sony Classical on the CD "O Dulcis Amor Iesu"
The Sonata a 8 by David Pohle is available on "Guide des Instruments Baroques" on RICERCAR
JohnDowl 4 months ago
Busco una partitura del "Autorretrato de John Bull". Si alguien me la puede pasar...
gadsy 5 months ago
i honestly cant believe how much variation and art is in this piece of music, ive been listening to your recording of this for weeks now.
bastardtubeuser 6 months ago
I dont subscribe to other channels, simply because I already have enought to keep up with. But please write, you will easily find me on the web.
maxwellsteer 9 months ago
Comment removed
bastardtubeuser 9 months ago
What does in nomine mean?
MagicDolphinGO 1 year ago
You will find an entry on it in Wikipedia. It wont let me copy the link.
maxwellsteer 1 year ago
@MagicDolphinGO It means "in the name of" (usually in nomine Domini = in the name of the Lord)
gspaulsson 3 months ago
I think you'll find Glinka and Tchaikovsky were doing unequal bars long before Stravinsky, hence Stravinsky and others were able to develop them, because they were part of their musical heritage!
flibbertergibbet 1 year ago
@flibbertergibbet If you really want to be pedantic, it wasnt 'long' before Stravinsky, it was merely a generation - and I would incline to doubt that they had much influence on S, whose lifelong ability was to distil musical ideas AHEAD of the pack, not as a response to the experimentation of others. The issue here is that Bull's rhythmic experimentation was as sui generis AS Stravinsky's or as Gesualdo's tonal experimentation.
maxwellsteer 1 year ago
@maxwellsteer I'd like to point out the difference between pedantry and ACCURACY: with greatest respect, what you actually wrote is "Nobody before Stravinsky ever experimented with irregular bars". Not true!
flibbertergibbet 1 year ago
@flibbertergibbet Well now, the issue would concern the word irregular. I dont know the piece/s of Glinka you're refering to, but is there anything other than the 5/4 movt in Pathetique in Tchaik? As far as Im aware even that movt isnt, strictly, 'irregular' bars since the metre remains constant. You could argue that that is also true of the In Nomine since the metric pattern is consistent, yet its notation as 4/4+4/4+3/4 validates my statement, unless you can Glinka me to the contrary!
maxwellsteer 1 year ago
@maxwellsteer Ah: here's our problem. We're both confusing a) regular but asymmetrical metres (e.g. extended passages of 5/4) with b) irregular metres (passages where the metre changes every bar or so). Glinka did the former in choruses from either Life for the Tsar or Ruslan (can't remember which), and Tchaik, as you say, in the Pathetique, whereas Mussorgsky did both in the Promenades from Pictures at an Exhibition and choruses in Boris and possibly the Stone Guest, if I remember correctly.
flibbertergibbet 1 year ago
Beautiful job Max. I have a recording of this piece played by Pierre Hantai. I have listened to it dozens of times w/ great fascination. Thank you for providing additional insight into the music, and for putting out there for more people to enjoy.
mercoid 2 years ago
My wide experience of early english keyboard music convinces me that the continental baroque convention of starting ornaments on the upper note does not apply. In at least half the cases of the dozens of ornaments in any given piece of english music it simply doesnt suit the character of the music and in an even greater proportion theyre actually unplayable.
maxwellsteer 2 years ago
Excellent piece! Technically rather demanding, but generally well done! Although I'd prefer the trills a bit more pronounced and starting on the upper note where appropriate. Excellent choice of music, this piece is played far too litlle.
ocktube 2 years ago