this means nothing to me!!!! could someone send me a link to find a video to explain it? something would help. many people are saying this isn't the theory, well what is it?
dude. this is not chaos theory. u cant say this is "my theory" if u dont like it or not. this is not religion to have different believes. In science u can only have one universal theory. wat u r saying is about probability and randomness. pls do not mislead ppl and pls do not give senseless answers to viewers questions with ur misunderstanding of different subjects. u seem like jack of all and master of none.
fuking awsum, but doesnt that mean that it will not only eventually happen because time is infinate, given that space and the universe is infinate it is actually happenning rite now,in an infinate number of locations?
@DeadSea000 (say approx 15 billion years) then it is meaningless to ask what happened before then. Also, if it had a specific beginning then the age of the universe either carries on increasing with time or comes to an end. Even if it carries on forever, it never becomes infinite. The time and the number of monkeys required to type a copy and subsequent copies refer to probability only. There is order in a copy of Shakespeare's works but in this scenario it is brought about by chance.
@DeadSea000 This is what makes it a philosophical problem, not a scientific one. I think the spatial paradox can be resolved. The error is in picturing ourselves viewing the universe from outside. We are not outside but within it. It may be that space curves back on itself in such a way that if we continue in a straight line we come back to our point of departure. I don't know quite what to make of the paradox of time. If the temporal universe began at a specific time ago [cont]
@DeadSea000 What I said about coherence applies to concepts generally, not just that of infinity. Consider the paradox of space. Where does space end? If one says at X, one can always ask: what is beyond that? On the other hand, there seems something wrong with the notion that it goes on and on forever. It is not just that we don't know the answer; no answer seems possible. So there must be something wrong with our thinking. [cont]
@DeadSea000 Oh you weren't picking on me, surely. You were just challenging what I said. And since I enjoy debate, I welcome anybody who challenges me. What I've no time for is people who attack me personally, riff raff who say stuff like, 'bla bla bla...you stupid idiot...bla bla you moron' usually peppered with expletives. Sometimes there's not even a counter-argument at all, just abuse. Thx for a civilised response.
@DeadSea000 However, 'infinity' also refers to a mathematical tool which the mathematician well knows doesn't correspond to anything real. In maths, infinity divided by an integer, no matter how big, equals infinity. Given a large enough number of monkeys (X) one will type out a copy of Shakespeare. How many to type Y copies? X times Y. If X times Y is unlimited, so is Y (the number of copies). Yet Y is a fraction of X times Y. That is all I mean by 'a fraction of infinity'.
@DeadSea000 Infinity is an abstract like truth or beauty. We cannot encounter infinity any more than we can truth or beauty, though we may encounter what is true, beautiful etc. Can we ever encounter anything that is infinite? I cannot imagine it. Can I conceive of it? Well, there is something I attach the label to but it might be an internally incoherent concept. If it is, then it cannot correspond to anything real. Even if coherent, it still might not exist. [cont)
That is assuming that space and time are infintite, we don't know that. It's an assumption trying to explain how we got here. By random chance. The same idea is being put into evolution, if only you have enough time and enough randomness, then eventually we come out of the slimey soup. But we don;t even know for sure if time is a constant. Or gravity. We don;t know half-time is a constant. We assume a lot of things, just to make us randomly possible.
I think the Chaos Theory is a theory that develops within itself. Its inevitable and I believe your prof. used a good example. Eventually one of the monkeys was going to type it because out of all the combinations and monkeys eventually it would unfold. It is chaos which is still looked at and studied in many different ways today.
You should have titled this "random thoughts", what you have described has no scientific or theoretical value, because everything you said is unfalsifiable. Who has an infinite amount of time, or even more silly, an infinite amount of monkeys? Chaos theory is brilliantly explained with graphical, and numerical methods. Explaining iterated maps, fractals, attractors, and orbit diagrams is a much more prowerful and really scientific way to see what chaos is about.
(think of this more as philosofy rather than science):
Imagine an infinite amounts of monkeys, who each live forever, typing all their life (forever).
The number of monkeys writing "Hamlet" would naturally also be infinite. But is it possible that the monkeys suceeding would end up understanding what they wrote?
It sounds stupid, but the more you think about it, the less stupid it seems. Remember that the monkeys live forever.
Don't listen to him, You did a perfect example in my eyes, i understood Clearly what you were saying, and that caught my eye about how you said that other people might think they understand the chaos theory, and then later on they might understand that there was more to learn from there, maybe more to learn to all of us.
@TryLSDnow Ya you would only need an infinite number of monkeys and typwriters, not time. within the time it takes to time a shakespeare play, you'd have an infinite number of copies of it. you'd also have an infinite number of it prefectly backwards, you'd have an infinite number of bibles, you'd have an infinite number of my personal life story. you'd also have a hell of a time finding anyone one of these written works in an infinite number of writings.
The probability in this chaotic universe that most of what has already happened - will repeat itself numerous times, if it hasn't already yet occurred....
think about what your fucking doing right now,up to this point the sentence i have typed out, as you read time accumulates ,now put all of what i have stated in an infinity,perhaps you and i and the actions there in have been repeating them self forever and variations there of,we just keep crossing the same path,always trying to do it differently so we can actually remember doing it for once.
think about what your fucking doing right now,up to this point the sentence i have typed out, as you read time accumulates ,now put all of what i have stated in an infinity,perhaps you and i and the actions there in have been repeating them self forever and variations there of,we just keep crossing the same path,always trying to do it differently so we can actually remember doing it for once.
An INFINITE number of monkeys typing randomly would not only result in one of them typing out Hamlet, but an INFINITE number of them doing so at first attempt without mistakes. In fact, it would result in an INFINITE number of monkeys typing out the whole of Shakespeare, and so on. This follows from the fact that the tiniest fraction of infinity is infinity.
Infinity is a weird notion. It may even be internally incoherent. ANYONE THINK IT IS?
Well, it's certainly not chaos theory, that's for sure. Isn't ETERNAL RECURRENCE Nietzsche's idea that if time is eternal, the same atoms that constitute you, indeed the planet, indeed the universe itself, must come together again and again endlessly?
Hes showing Examples to help you understand it for once, give him a chance, he described it clearly to me, and if you dont understand then dont Fucking comment. Get an actual life instead of commenting dumb shit, all it causes is Chaos Like he was explaining, Do you people have no sense?
Sure he was saying "think of the monkeys living forever" Hes not Literally Saying they Will live forever hes breaking down Life wise to help it Easier to understand.
hrm, i enjoyed most of what you wrote however, time is not infinite, time is not energy or mass it is not alive yet it isnt dead, how might such a thing end? maybe whats known as a time freeze? where time still exists but doesnt actually have any effect would you say frozen time is still time? sorry its just a subject i cant quite get my head around.
Finally something worth reading... I personally don't believe in the Omega, so I don't believe in time ending, hey, but that's my opinion. However, what matters to you is what you believe and a "time freeze" is a brilliant theory! IMO, frozen time is like a stopped watch or a single frame in a film. There's more to it than this, that's why you can't get it out of your head. You're onto something...
i know this may not sound true, but I'm only 15 but i have left university professors speechless with some of my theories and questions, i spend much of my time scared as to the possibilities the universe is yet to uncover or rather if it ever will, i hate not being able to understand which is what is said to have led many scientists to mental health issues, haha hopefully that wont happen to me! but yes i never use anyone elses ideas all of my previous comment is purely my own theory/question
skip the notions of what you are. Move on to the point at hand: Time and it's existence.
Time as I have been taught isn't a separate entity but a measurement of change. Time is an organized principle created to take a measurement of change. We base time off the lunar cycle of 24-25 hour intervals. "Freezing" time requires one to stop a rate of change (IE to reduce bacteria growth we freeze foods to slow the rate of reproduction of bacteria). Now, the problem with determining the origin is
i thought the chaos theory was that if u drop a stone in water it makes a wave that travels around the world but what i wonder is wat happens when 2 ppl drop a stone at the same time in hoping that the 2 wave it toghter
Probably some smuck who took the time to READ or MAKE this vid. really, to TryLSDnow, get a life and figure out what the Chaos Theory is all about. Or even get a better example, like a butterfly's wings flapping will make a soft gentle ripple on the other side of the world, or a gentle fart from 1hits2best's arse. (~);}
Ah, there's just another thing I'm uncertain about. Does our belief change the outcome of the Chaos? Because when we agree to the point of infinite possibility, we also agree that to some degree our thinking and perception can affect the possibility.
Ha, knowledge is like sand in desert. We pick up some sands or a handful of sand are no different: meaningless. We human find it fun to do so though ^^
"Eventually in infinity, our world could be created"
Srange, I had that thought long before I read about Chaos theory.
An idea about infinite-finite:
You draw a straight line, and continue drawing, further to infinity - but then in our universe, that infinity means you comes back to starting point -> finite
You draw a circle, then the area within is limit (finite) - but then if you put dots in that finite area, zoom in, put more dots, zoom in more, more dots, you can put infinite dots there.
My belief on finite universe (not about time, too much): think about 2d beings that live in the surface of a globe. That surface sure is limited, and there are space outside it. BUT the 2d entities CANNOT COMPREHEND the 3d space. So they might know that their universe is finite, but cannot explain why, just that if they go straight forever they will eventually end up at the starting point.
No seashore, no wall, no boundary, yet LIMITED by our COMPREHENSION CAPABILITY
I don't believe that everything and anything is possible. What I believe is that only what "IS" is possible. For example, you could say that it is possible that I could have drank something and would be going to the the bathroom right now. The reality is that I am not in the bathroom but at my computer. There is only one reality and it is not possible that I am somewhere else.
I agree with that, pretty much. Like, what if you just wanted to spread wings and be able to fly to other galaxies, while breathing, heat, cold, radiation, etc, wouldn't be a threat. I just don't see you doing that right this instant. Yet, it is an unlikely possiblity that you may miraculously be able to do just that instantly one day. Yet, very, very unlikely. However, that call isn't my call to be made.
(Part 2) I used to believe that "Anything is Possible" in given time, but rarely as soon as the idea was thought. However what ever is wondered if possible may be a normal occurance in some other location - Maybe within an atom in your own body? (~);}
(Part1) I think that we live in the possibility that WE EXIST - because if we don't how can we be here wondering?
In this possibility, all the laws of physics and all things that we consider "normal" are all so that WE EXIST.
Let's say there's another universe where the laws of physics are different, people there are made from metal and can walk through walls... It doesn't matter because WE just don't exist there - it's no more than imagination
(Pt. 1) Clever... if there is another universe where metalians may walk through walls and our state of universal physics are only imagitive, then it seems a likely possibility. I mean, what is the standand set of physics in our universe - only the ones humanity has claimed?
(Part2) In that universe, people begin to wonder "why it's like this but not like that? why I'm made with metal, not with meat and all?"
I've read one argument against Darwinism and origin of life: "why can't just say coincidentally material come together and become bricks and cement, then coincidentally come together to become a house?"
Well that world is a possibility, but these thing doesn't help WE exist.
(Part 2) Well, yes, I guess it doesn't help "WE" exist, but does "WE" help the metal ones exist? If they truely exist, really what do we have to offer to its reality? Actually, probably a lot...
That really made me think. However I kinda believe time and space equally share infinity. Since you are more of a "time" believer, consider halving an area of space consistently.
Mathematically, one should be able to do this indefinitely, getting answers for each halving for infinity. Or, let's say even though a distance/space from point A to point B is an exact number, it's the numbers which indefinitely continue to grow smaller with each division, forever. My apology if this is too basic for you. (~);}
i apoligise if this question is not of a itilectual standard but im going to the butterfly effect here does the fact the human race create's chaos in itself were inevitably going to destroy our selves
The monkeys / typewriters thing has nothing to do with chaos theory, its a saying to try and explain the concept of infinity thru the application of total randomness. Chaos theory is about complex dynamical systems.
Yeah, you and many other open-minded folks. Also, I've found many trippers to have pondered the notion. However, I've been suprised at the number of people who've thought it to be heretical. hehe.
what you've explained in your video is not in fact thoughts on chaos theory, but in fact thoughts on probability and chance. For example you talk of how 10 monkeys given an infinite amount of time would eventually type out shakespeare's hamlet, this is true, yet it has nothing to do with chaos theory. This example only outlines that nothing is impossible as everything is based on chance and seeing as time is infinite then eventually the said event must happen.
Thanks for the input. I know what you're saying, but check out the "more info" description link on this vid. I'm aware. I just think it's cool that (somewhat?) order may come from chaos. (~);}
In opinion perhaps, we are not creting an illusion all. You see, everything we make is to help us understand not to blanket in illusion. I see your statement and understand it but I think thatonce someone has indeed discovered that this blanket is a simle comforting illusion then its not an illusion anymore.
a problem with your "recreated world" thought, scientists have recently shown that space is finite, and that time had a beginning, thus Chaos Theory in that since doesn't apply.
Thanks for the input, but maybe there is an end to "space" but I'm sure there is something after "space." Maybe some term not yet defined... or a solid wall(hehe). However, what do you think about infinite smallness? (~);}
well at the end of space, you go to the beginning, like how in two dimensions a sphere in infinite, you start off in a path, you keep going until you end up in the starting point, there was no "beginning" and no "end" just one seam less path, that goes on forever, the same is with our universe, as long as we go in 3 dimensions we will go in one seamless path. However if we were to go into the 4th, we would see hyperspace, and other universes. This was taken from Dr. Michio Kaku.
if i understude you you are saying that everything is looped, i think maybe this loop also works with the past present and futer the present is really the past turning in to the futer so the present dosent really exist any ways what im trying to say is that "The Present is the end the present is the begaining" what so you think?
My problem with the Creation Theory is that it claims the universe was created by god. But, then how was god created? Maybe through randomness? Anyway, thanks for your interesting, mind-blowing input! (~);}
well, we come into the same problem with the big bang theory to quote Stephen Hawking"why does the Universe even bother existing?"
with M- theory we are left with one universe membrane with nothing to collide with to create more big bangs. God solves this, if God is math itself, (and yes, according to our wonderful world of the quantum He must be a being) than he has always existed, else there would be a time before math.
So following this idea I come to realize that I am eternal (as a real entity) for I can exist again an again (this idea gives me chills since I rather be with God as I was taught.Relativity's theory sustains that the Universe is finite in space but endless in time.
I sometime feel sorry for God, for how was he created and by whom. Many creationists believe humans had to be created, but they never question God's creation. Therefore if God always existed, then why can't humans have evolved from our cosmic stew without God's creation, but instead as a natural occurrence?
But, as I learned in my electronics classes, "Energy is never lost - it dissipates into the atmosphere."
Our bodies are filled with energy and upon death, I believe our energy/soul will depart our bodies. Don't let my video influence you if you find comfort in being with God. My vid is only a theory. Anyway, anyone with a good soul like yours, needn't worry. You will be fine.
Don't fear death, as a child shouldn't fear being born. Life is of the flesh and full of different senses, where our "souls" are not to know our senses, but find new ones and yet survive, as a naked child in a new world.
One last note - it's difficult for me not to believe space isn't infinite - it's like does it finally stop and hit a wall? Also, infinity may go two ways - infinite greatness and infinite smallness. Theoretically, there may be a whole universes in each atom or smaller matter unit. Our bodies could be hosts to whole different areas / galaxies / spaces if we had the technology to really search extremely small particles, millions of times smaller than atoms. I guess, never say never.
But, if you believe in God and wish to be with your deity, then I hope your beliefs happen for you. First off, you're a nice person to converse with, and you didn't use negative language posting to me. You seem really nice. Godspeed.
You were talking about the universe being infinite, but its not. The universe is growing which means it cannot be infinite. It may be big but it is nowhere close to infinity and will never get to infinity.
Go to school, or whatever. If the universe is growing, then where is it going to expand? Also, ever heard of infinite smallness? That's a perfect example of infinity.
Einstein made a clean explanation of Hubble's law observed Hubble's law which indicates that galaxies that are more distant from us appear to be receding faster than galaxies that are closer to us. I know what infinity means, but being infinitely small is known is being infinitesimal. According to Einstein's theory of relativity, a singularity does not contain anything that is actually infinite, only things that move mathematically towards infinity.
Anything that is curved and has no center of expansion or edge such as a balloon is boundless but finite because its physical extent will come to an end. So you can imagine the universe using that balloon analogy.
Trinity31338 - This raises another question. After the physical end to an entity, like the universe, what continues? A solid impenetrable wall or a void of nothingness? Both of these examples would seem to continue for a while. Yet this example is for greatness.
What about looking inward, instead of outward, for example, looking at an atom as a galaxy itself, with the core being a sun and the electrons and protons being rotating planets. Look even deeper and we may experience different life forms existing on these different electrons and neutrons. Maybe magnify an atom by the trillions and who knows?
If you believe in God, then why look up to the Heavens when looking down to the microcosmic universes may be the same - God is everything and everywhere?
TryLSDnow, I and many others have already thought about this. Anyway, if you have the time, go to my youtube profile, and look for my myspace URL. I wrote a blog about the possiblities of the universe being finite/infinite and I tied some of your ideas with it. By the way, I was only speaking for a curved universe.
I can't prove infiinity in our universe, as you truly can't prove it in your explanations. What? After the universe ends, there is a solid non-existence or area? Kinda reminds me of the early sailors that believed one could encounter the end of the Earth's ocean and fall into a non-existence. Serious, however, do you believe that at the end of the universe, there is a solid wall? Or an ending? Whatever. Your guess is as good as mine. Thanks for your input.
If you're pulling my leg, good job! You had me going until now.
Else... sigh. If the use of the word arbitrary turns a field into non-reasoning, well, goodbye mathematics! In math, "arbitrarily small" has a technical meaning which is essential for such staples as calculus (theory of limits anyone?) Put in non-technical language, Lorenz's discovery might be better expressed, "For two starting points as close together as you like, their long term behavior will diverge as far apart as you like."
Meanwhile, I noticed that you replied to nothing in my posts save for a single word you found offensive because you don't understand its technical use. You can assert that my reasoning or math are lacking, but you certainly haven't shown it. Shall I interpret your "goodbye" as a concession?
Killerlimpet, I had to reply... your concepts and theories are just. What ever gets you through? My theory is simpaly a theory, and not a proven fact. I enjoy my freedom to express myself, even if you disagree. Also, my "goodbye" is a concession, as you put it, for I don't have an argument with your beliefs. Believe as you will, for you are your own in this world.
living organisms such as us humans are of this sort, dependent on such a web of chance for their coming-to-be that even their possibility - had they not existed - would have evaded prediciton.
take for exapmle copper sulfate. it may behave stably in ways that laws of physical and chemical combination of their atomic parts can predict. still, their actual coming to be could not be predicted; only its possibility. other entities have novel rules of stable behavior not predictable from merely general physics or chemistry, and not understandable except within the context of concrete chance world-history.
To start, you're grossly misrepresenting Lorenz' discovery- it was not merely that changes in input led to changes in output, but that arbitrarily small changes in input could lead to arbitrarily large changes in output. Lorenz did not run screaming "eureka," but quietly published his results in a little-known meteorological journal.
Now, you seem to claim that your distortion of this idea is deficient because it is trivial. (con't)
The actual events, as I have described them, were quite counterintuitive to a scientific world trained in studying linear systems as it was at the time; its effect has been likened to one of Kuhn's "revolutions" or "paradigm shifts." As for Perelman, forgive my skepticism. If you can point to him expressing this opinion publically, I'll believe it; else, it's anonymous anecdotal internet name dropping to me. Regardless, I would disagree still, unless Perelman can elaborate. CT places (con't)
limits on our knowledge (ie, our ability to know the weather accurately a year from now) but it does not prohibit understanding- it can illuminate deep order in apparently random processes. I gave you one example of something that CT tells us about the world, contra your earlier statement that CT effectively makes no predictions. Would you like to explain why Feigenbaum's constant does not represent an understanding of the world that CT has given us?
... or maybe I'm a mathematician who studies chaos theory and tires of people psuedointellectualizing about things they don't understand? In any event, you are still incorrect; chaos theory does not claim that "anything is possible," but makes several strong predictions about the world- the universality of Feigenbaum's constant in period doubling is one example.
Sure, monkeys on typewriters are a classic example, but it has nothing to do with Chaos Theory. CT is a specialized branch of mathematics (with applications to physics, chemistry, biology, etc) which, contrary to its name, does not study randomness or disorder, but the ability of relatively simple systems to have complex and surprising behavior. Your monkeys example is true enough, and your conclusions (accepting other assumptions) are plausible, but chaos theory appears nowhere here.
Chaos Theory is not "just a" theory. Theory in this sense refers to a branch of knowledge, ie, number theory, queer theory, political theory. It is certainly not "only an opinion." The Chaos in the title does not refer to our inability to understand it (A great deal is understood about chaos; Read Gleick's book by that name) but rather our inability to accurately model chaotic systems in the long term.
that's so retarded. an infinte number of monkeys would type out any sentence you can think of including hamlet in the time it takes for them to strike the keys to do it... becuase there is an infinite number of them! duuuuh!
Correct. Assuming there were an infinite amount of monkeys, at least one of them would type it first time. Even the entire works of Shakespeare, at least one monkey would correctly type it first time around. Also, a theoretical infinite amount of monkeys, billions of them would type it right first time, and an infinite amount more would do it wrong.
hah! but you still understimate the word infinite. not at least one, but an infinite number would type them wrong and an infinte number would type them right. infinite does not work like an ordinal number
That is true, it is impossible to model this example in any way really. Even saying 999999 trillion monkeys, there is no guarentee any of them would type anything, trying to imagine what would happen just messes with your head :p
How about reading a book on Chaos Theory before you share your "deep thoughts". I obviously don't know you, but if I had to describe you based on this video, I would say that you were not a smart person trying to be smart. You think you're deep, but in fact you are the opposite. There is an immense amount of fascinating knowledge and theory about this weird universe we live in, please don't cheapen it with ridiculously inaccurate videos that only mislead people.
well? what the hell do you believe then? you say this is wrong , where the fuck is the right opinion then? lol ?? come on tell us then ? tell us what this chaos theory actually means? all u done was leave a derogatroy statement which just angers me.
to checkomsky - actually, the more educated I got, the more stupid I felt - and I'm really dumb. As for the Chaos Theory, I do realize what I was taught to be the CT is not correct - read the full discription of my vid.
Many people have their own theories for how we came to existence (Creationism, BigBang, Darwinism), thus they all have their own creation theory. Well, the chaos theory in my opinion is the one I use in my vid.
Also, why do actions always have to cause bigger actions for those who believe a butterfly's wings flapping will create a hurricane elsewhere in the world - why not a gentle waft or a ripple in a pond?
There are only about 3 × 1079 hydrogen atoms in the universe and only 4.3 × 1017 seconds have elapsed since the Big Bang. If the universe were filled with monkeys typing for all time, their total probability to produce a single instance of Hamlet would still be less than one in 10183,800. The probability of Hamlet is therefore zero in any operational sense of an event.
That is nothing to do with Chaos Theory - that's simple counting techniques and probabilty. (and btw space and time are not infinite - space is only 10^26 meters wide and 10^10 years old.)
Chaos Theory is about the flow on effect in a complex system, whereby an infinitely small change in inital conditions can result in huge changes in final conditions....... (cont)
(The most famous example is the Butterfly Effect - a butterfly flapping its wings can disturb the complex system of the weather enough to create a hurricane a week later.)
Finally somebody who has the same view as me! Although I disagree with the probability part because the monkeys can be replaced with computers making combinations and permutations on the alphabet, no probablity involved.
Are you seriously trying to say that space is infinite because nobody has gone that far? I can argue the same thing and say have you been going through space a very long time and realised it is infinite? If not, then its obviously finite. I think its best to trust the observational EVIDENCE which shows the universe is quite finite.
WHAT?! The universe by definition is in no way infinite according to the best theories we have, the same theories which explain why the Earth orbits the Sun and apples fall to the ground.
Think about it, though. What we're referring to is the 3D universe, as we are 3D (I hope). What about a 2D universe? What about (applies chaos theory here)an infinite-dimension theory? At least one of them's got to have other Universal *snigger* laws?
Our universe is 4D...An infinite dimension theory? Do you care to explain what you mean by infinite dimensions and what evidence or reason is there to accept infinite dimensions or what relevance it has at all to Chaos.
reason and logic are creations by people for people. we know nothing of what is out there. thinking in terms of logic and reason is all we have but it isn't enough.
In my view if their were an infinite number of monkeys. And say Shakespeares 'Hamlet' was 20,000 characters long, and all monkeys could type at a constant (say 200 characters a minute). Then an infinite number (but by no means all) would have written Hamlet in 100 minutes.
i like this theory.... of course there must be another world like ours...... with the universe so vast and big there just HAS to be.......... btw can anybody understand the meaning of "infinity"? cuz i cant. i cant imagine something going on forever...... hmmm
its one of those things. everything has a beginning and end as one of its funamental qualities. something endless is impossible for us to fully comprehend because there is nothing to liken it to
or in the time span it would take that certain monkey to hit all those keys in the correct sequence, since the novel is quite long... Thanks for your valid input. (~);}
you are forgetting something. no matter how many monkeys there are, there is a small (VERY VERY SMALL) chance that they will NEVER write shakespear or even that sentence. its like lottery. you hav pretty much no chance to win it. but there is still a chance.
If you have an infinite number of computers making an infinite number of permutations and combinations on letters then you know with certainty that all meaningful (and not so meaningful sentences) will be typed. There is no question of probability.
There is no such thing as "ALMOST complete certainty". There is no talk of chance or probability. If every combination and permutation of the alphabet where to be compiled all meaningful sentences would be produced. There is no infinitely small chance that it wont, there is no talk of chance! If you claim that there is probability involved, prove it mathematically or logically.
Since the monkeys are being used as random character generators, probability enters in that not every string of characters need be produced; there is no rule, for example, that prevents the monkeys from simply typing A over and over. It's incredibly improbably but then again so is any string of significant length. This sort of situation is why you sometimes here people talk about events w/"a probability of 1"
A similar situation is playing "pick a number between 1 and infinity" with a deity. You pick three. The odds of being correct are essentially zero, but it's still possible that you picked correctly.
I think the whole monkey business can be ignored. I believe the issue is to do with permutations. You could have said the same thing with an infinite amount of computers performing permutations and combinations with letters. Also according to modern physics the universe is infinite in neither space or time...so no unlimited possibilities as the stars will burn out.
I don't agree with the limit of possibilites due to 'stars burning out', (By the way- new stars are constantly being created). Their energy and mass originated from the big bang; which (according to popular belief) was initially nothing.
Also I feel that I should point out that our space/time universe (in your view) may have limited possibilities. But there maybe be alternate universes governed by different laws of physics.
Yeah, and the big bang is a theory for our universe, but I'm sure there are other "universes" out there or totally different places governed by different laws of physics or totally different unknown concepts. Just a theory... (~);}
In this example, if it is possible then it has already happened. This is why infinity cannot exist at this level. Infinity is simply a perception of the unknown in a false reality.
The chaos theory is a very strange thing to think about. The whole butterflies and hurricanes concept blows me away (no pun intended :P)
Something like..stopping to tie your shoelace results in you being late for you bus, which makes you late for work. Which gets you fired. Which makes you really depressed. Which results in suicide.
Im not saying that just because you get fired means you will kill yourself, thats just a drastic example.
Actually if you had an infinite number of monkeys doing said task, you would have the complete work of Shakespeare done in an infinitely small quantification of time.
Thanks for your reply. Maybe time isn't a factor, if the universe in infinite - then maybe whatever is possible is happening somewhere else, like at a microscopic, macroscopic, or in our level? For infinity goes into infinite smallness and greatness, too.
You and your professor are missing a key point about Infinity. That is, if an infinite number of monkeys were typing on keyboards one of those Monkeys would type Hamlet from beginning to end, with no errors....Immediately.... As infinity is quite big.
Also, a more open comment - surely infinity does not 'make all things possible'. Infinite monkeys may type Shakespeare, but could they speak it? No, because monkeys lack the necessary vocal equipment. Would I ever be able to touch my right elbow with my right hand (without harm)? Or George Bush correctly to pronounce the word 'nuclear'? (I begin to see why he prefers not to think of himself as evolved from monkey forbears...).
The concept of infinity has **nothing** to do with Chaos theory, a mathematical theory, which does not depend upon infinity to create its effects. Your Theology professor is not a Mathematics professor, and has misled you.
Wouldn't that be defined as ideas into dementions. What if there is a super subconsciousness communicating between these monkeys. How do you know It will definitely appear or eventually happen? Its a growing change in ideas to create a sentence. There is a possibility that sentence would never appear and besides the fact that that it already exsists. Could be the same with the Universe.
That has to be the greatest argument for intelligent design I've ever heard. If chaos is an academic theory, then the academy is wholly in a new dark age. I invented the infinite universe theory when I was 15 in 1973. At the time physicists were positing an end to space.
An infinite number of monkeys would write anything in an infinitesimal period of time.
mlawren7 3 weeks ago
this means nothing to me!!!! could someone send me a link to find a video to explain it? something would help. many people are saying this isn't the theory, well what is it?
theguydudety 9 months ago
dude. this is not chaos theory. u cant say this is "my theory" if u dont like it or not. this is not religion to have different believes. In science u can only have one universal theory. wat u r saying is about probability and randomness. pls do not mislead ppl and pls do not give senseless answers to viewers questions with ur misunderstanding of different subjects. u seem like jack of all and master of none.
kesav1985 10 months ago
fuking awsum, but doesnt that mean that it will not only eventually happen because time is infinate, given that space and the universe is infinate it is actually happenning rite now,in an infinate number of locations?
dingdonghead100 1 year ago
Probability and chaos are completely different things. Chaos is entirely deterministic.
Probability doesn't really feature in chaos.
Chaos isn't about things being likely or unlikely, it's about things being unpredictable.
marcotenshi 1 year ago
Probability for something to happen in a system = chaos
00Avenger17 1 year ago
my explanation for why the universe must be infinite in nature is that everything is made of infinite points.
Cantor said there were infinite infinites, which can explain relative infinities in the universe. (ie, inifinity^2, infinity ^3, etc..)
billybob1212 1 year ago
@DeadSea000 (say approx 15 billion years) then it is meaningless to ask what happened before then. Also, if it had a specific beginning then the age of the universe either carries on increasing with time or comes to an end. Even if it carries on forever, it never becomes infinite. The time and the number of monkeys required to type a copy and subsequent copies refer to probability only. There is order in a copy of Shakespeare's works but in this scenario it is brought about by chance.
archdeaconj 1 year ago
@DeadSea000 This is what makes it a philosophical problem, not a scientific one. I think the spatial paradox can be resolved. The error is in picturing ourselves viewing the universe from outside. We are not outside but within it. It may be that space curves back on itself in such a way that if we continue in a straight line we come back to our point of departure. I don't know quite what to make of the paradox of time. If the temporal universe began at a specific time ago [cont]
archdeaconj 1 year ago
@DeadSea000 What I said about coherence applies to concepts generally, not just that of infinity. Consider the paradox of space. Where does space end? If one says at X, one can always ask: what is beyond that? On the other hand, there seems something wrong with the notion that it goes on and on forever. It is not just that we don't know the answer; no answer seems possible. So there must be something wrong with our thinking. [cont]
archdeaconj 1 year ago
@DeadSea000 Oh you weren't picking on me, surely. You were just challenging what I said. And since I enjoy debate, I welcome anybody who challenges me. What I've no time for is people who attack me personally, riff raff who say stuff like, 'bla bla bla...you stupid idiot...bla bla you moron' usually peppered with expletives. Sometimes there's not even a counter-argument at all, just abuse. Thx for a civilised response.
archdeaconj 1 year ago
@DeadSea000 However, 'infinity' also refers to a mathematical tool which the mathematician well knows doesn't correspond to anything real. In maths, infinity divided by an integer, no matter how big, equals infinity. Given a large enough number of monkeys (X) one will type out a copy of Shakespeare. How many to type Y copies? X times Y. If X times Y is unlimited, so is Y (the number of copies). Yet Y is a fraction of X times Y. That is all I mean by 'a fraction of infinity'.
archdeaconj 1 year ago
@DeadSea000 Infinity is an abstract like truth or beauty. We cannot encounter infinity any more than we can truth or beauty, though we may encounter what is true, beautiful etc. Can we ever encounter anything that is infinite? I cannot imagine it. Can I conceive of it? Well, there is something I attach the label to but it might be an internally incoherent concept. If it is, then it cannot correspond to anything real. Even if coherent, it still might not exist. [cont)
archdeaconj 1 year ago
That is assuming that space and time are infintite, we don't know that. It's an assumption trying to explain how we got here. By random chance. The same idea is being put into evolution, if only you have enough time and enough randomness, then eventually we come out of the slimey soup. But we don;t even know for sure if time is a constant. Or gravity. We don;t know half-time is a constant. We assume a lot of things, just to make us randomly possible.
Rxmundi 1 year ago
I think the Chaos Theory is a theory that develops within itself. Its inevitable and I believe your prof. used a good example. Eventually one of the monkeys was going to type it because out of all the combinations and monkeys eventually it would unfold. It is chaos which is still looked at and studied in many different ways today.
jdogndross 2 years ago
You should have titled this "random thoughts", what you have described has no scientific or theoretical value, because everything you said is unfalsifiable. Who has an infinite amount of time, or even more silly, an infinite amount of monkeys? Chaos theory is brilliantly explained with graphical, and numerical methods. Explaining iterated maps, fractals, attractors, and orbit diagrams is a much more prowerful and really scientific way to see what chaos is about.
mavadd88 2 years ago
(think of this more as philosofy rather than science):
Imagine an infinite amounts of monkeys, who each live forever, typing all their life (forever).
The number of monkeys writing "Hamlet" would naturally also be infinite. But is it possible that the monkeys suceeding would end up understanding what they wrote?
It sounds stupid, but the more you think about it, the less stupid it seems. Remember that the monkeys live forever.
HarboeDrinker 2 years ago
thats not chaos theory. u just described probabilty...
bmed19 2 years ago 10
yeah, just like the butterfly effect, which just describes probablity, like one event leads to another...
Hey, it's my Chaos Theory. If you don't like it then whatever...
Pick on Creationism. Even though it's generally one concept, there are many theories beyond that one idea.
Imagine Swirled Peas, (~);}
TryLSDnow 2 years ago
Don't listen to him, You did a perfect example in my eyes, i understood Clearly what you were saying, and that caught my eye about how you said that other people might think they understand the chaos theory, and then later on they might understand that there was more to learn from there, maybe more to learn to all of us.
TigerBlossom101 2 years ago
@TryLSDnow Ya you would only need an infinite number of monkeys and typwriters, not time. within the time it takes to time a shakespeare play, you'd have an infinite number of copies of it. you'd also have an infinite number of it prefectly backwards, you'd have an infinite number of bibles, you'd have an infinite number of my personal life story. you'd also have a hell of a time finding anyone one of these written works in an infinite number of writings.
MrAronwelsh 1 year ago
The probability in this chaotic universe that most of what has already happened - will repeat itself numerous times, if it hasn't already yet occurred....
GratefuLSDead 9 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
think about what your fucking doing right now,up to this point the sentence i have typed out, as you read time accumulates ,now put all of what i have stated in an infinity,perhaps you and i and the actions there in have been repeating them self forever and variations there of,we just keep crossing the same path,always trying to do it differently so we can actually remember doing it for once.
ventilize 2 years ago
think about what your fucking doing right now,up to this point the sentence i have typed out, as you read time accumulates ,now put all of what i have stated in an infinity,perhaps you and i and the actions there in have been repeating them self forever and variations there of,we just keep crossing the same path,always trying to do it differently so we can actually remember doing it for once.
ventilize 2 years ago
An INFINITE number of monkeys typing randomly would not only result in one of them typing out Hamlet, but an INFINITE number of them doing so at first attempt without mistakes. In fact, it would result in an INFINITE number of monkeys typing out the whole of Shakespeare, and so on. This follows from the fact that the tiniest fraction of infinity is infinity.
Infinity is a weird notion. It may even be internally incoherent. ANYONE THINK IT IS?
archdeaconj 2 years ago
You've got this stuff down. As for infinity being incoherent... hmmm? Good post, however.
TryLSDnow 2 years ago
Thats 'eternal recurrence' not chaos theory.
HexicRave 2 years ago 3
Well, it's certainly not chaos theory, that's for sure. Isn't ETERNAL RECURRENCE Nietzsche's idea that if time is eternal, the same atoms that constitute you, indeed the planet, indeed the universe itself, must come together again and again endlessly?
archdeaconj 2 years ago
True. it also assumes that space is a closed system.
HexicRave 2 years ago
Hes showing Examples to help you understand it for once, give him a chance, he described it clearly to me, and if you dont understand then dont Fucking comment. Get an actual life instead of commenting dumb shit, all it causes is Chaos Like he was explaining, Do you people have no sense?
Sure he was saying "think of the monkeys living forever" Hes not Literally Saying they Will live forever hes breaking down Life wise to help it Easier to understand.
TigerBlossom101 2 years ago
hrm, i enjoyed most of what you wrote however, time is not infinite, time is not energy or mass it is not alive yet it isnt dead, how might such a thing end? maybe whats known as a time freeze? where time still exists but doesnt actually have any effect would you say frozen time is still time? sorry its just a subject i cant quite get my head around.
jc108 2 years ago 2
Finally something worth reading... I personally don't believe in the Omega, so I don't believe in time ending, hey, but that's my opinion. However, what matters to you is what you believe and a "time freeze" is a brilliant theory! IMO, frozen time is like a stopped watch or a single frame in a film. There's more to it than this, that's why you can't get it out of your head. You're onto something...
GratefuLSDead 2 years ago
i know this may not sound true, but I'm only 15 but i have left university professors speechless with some of my theories and questions, i spend much of my time scared as to the possibilities the universe is yet to uncover or rather if it ever will, i hate not being able to understand which is what is said to have led many scientists to mental health issues, haha hopefully that wont happen to me! but yes i never use anyone elses ideas all of my previous comment is purely my own theory/question
jc108 2 years ago
skip the notions of what you are. Move on to the point at hand: Time and it's existence.
Time as I have been taught isn't a separate entity but a measurement of change. Time is an organized principle created to take a measurement of change. We base time off the lunar cycle of 24-25 hour intervals. "Freezing" time requires one to stop a rate of change (IE to reduce bacteria growth we freeze foods to slow the rate of reproduction of bacteria). Now, the problem with determining the origin is
optimize0 2 years ago
true true
rank6274elite5 2 years ago
i thought the chaos theory was that if u drop a stone in water it makes a wave that travels around the world but what i wonder is wat happens when 2 ppl drop a stone at the same time in hoping that the 2 wave it toghter
rank6274elite5 2 years ago
soz the 2 wave come toghter making a bigger wave maybe if aliens are real hear the sound
rank6274elite5 2 years ago
maybe they cancel each other out?
GratefuLSDead 2 years ago
Even in the case of chaos theory being (kind of) true. I do not think that any of those monkeys would necessarily type out Hamlet.
leebotton 2 years ago
Truley, who cares?
1hits2besthitback 2 years ago
Probably some smuck who took the time to READ or MAKE this vid. really, to TryLSDnow, get a life and figure out what the Chaos Theory is all about. Or even get a better example, like a butterfly's wings flapping will make a soft gentle ripple on the other side of the world, or a gentle fart from 1hits2best's arse. (~);}
TryLSDnow 2 years ago
Your misunderstanding of chaos theory is matched only by your misunderstanding of cosmology.
MikeReadsPopQuiz 2 years ago
damn it i forgot the answer to this question. we came from the stars yet we cannot control them. WHY is that so? can anybody help me?
xBLOODBAFx 3 years ago
Ah, there's just another thing I'm uncertain about. Does our belief change the outcome of the Chaos? Because when we agree to the point of infinite possibility, we also agree that to some degree our thinking and perception can affect the possibility.
Ha, knowledge is like sand in desert. We pick up some sands or a handful of sand are no different: meaningless. We human find it fun to do so though ^^
cutevil 3 years ago
"Eventually in infinity, our world could be created"
Srange, I had that thought long before I read about Chaos theory.
An idea about infinite-finite:
You draw a straight line, and continue drawing, further to infinity - but then in our universe, that infinity means you comes back to starting point -> finite
You draw a circle, then the area within is limit (finite) - but then if you put dots in that finite area, zoom in, put more dots, zoom in more, more dots, you can put infinite dots there.
cutevil 3 years ago
I get tired of putting in dots in finite areas. It's like coloring. I'd rather color outside the lines.
Imagine Swirled Peas, TryLSDnow
TryLSDnow 3 years ago
My belief on finite universe (not about time, too much): think about 2d beings that live in the surface of a globe. That surface sure is limited, and there are space outside it. BUT the 2d entities CANNOT COMPREHEND the 3d space. So they might know that their universe is finite, but cannot explain why, just that if they go straight forever they will eventually end up at the starting point.
No seashore, no wall, no boundary, yet LIMITED by our COMPREHENSION CAPABILITY
poor English sorry ^^
cutevil 3 years ago
thanks a lot
kamalmichael 3 years ago
I don't believe that everything and anything is possible. What I believe is that only what "IS" is possible. For example, you could say that it is possible that I could have drank something and would be going to the the bathroom right now. The reality is that I am not in the bathroom but at my computer. There is only one reality and it is not possible that I am somewhere else.
343gspark 3 years ago
(Part 1) Thanks for sharing your thoughts...
I agree with that, pretty much. Like, what if you just wanted to spread wings and be able to fly to other galaxies, while breathing, heat, cold, radiation, etc, wouldn't be a threat. I just don't see you doing that right this instant. Yet, it is an unlikely possiblity that you may miraculously be able to do just that instantly one day. Yet, very, very unlikely. However, that call isn't my call to be made.
TryLSDnow 3 years ago
(Part 2) I used to believe that "Anything is Possible" in given time, but rarely as soon as the idea was thought. However what ever is wondered if possible may be a normal occurance in some other location - Maybe within an atom in your own body? (~);}
TryLSDnow 3 years ago
(Part1) I think that we live in the possibility that WE EXIST - because if we don't how can we be here wondering?
In this possibility, all the laws of physics and all things that we consider "normal" are all so that WE EXIST.
Let's say there's another universe where the laws of physics are different, people there are made from metal and can walk through walls... It doesn't matter because WE just don't exist there - it's no more than imagination
cutevil 3 years ago
(Pt. 1) Clever... if there is another universe where metalians may walk through walls and our state of universal physics are only imagitive, then it seems a likely possibility. I mean, what is the standand set of physics in our universe - only the ones humanity has claimed?
TryLSDnow 3 years ago
(Part2) In that universe, people begin to wonder "why it's like this but not like that? why I'm made with metal, not with meat and all?"
I've read one argument against Darwinism and origin of life: "why can't just say coincidentally material come together and become bricks and cement, then coincidentally come together to become a house?"
Well that world is a possibility, but these thing doesn't help WE exist.
cutevil 3 years ago
(Part 2) Well, yes, I guess it doesn't help "WE" exist, but does "WE" help the metal ones exist? If they truely exist, really what do we have to offer to its reality? Actually, probably a lot...
TryLSDnow 3 years ago
A small talk about GOD
"Man made GOD in his own image"
I don't mean that there's no GOD, but the way we perceive GOD, think what GOD is - is basically just limit.
Look at the cloud, you see faces.But I see a dragon, my friend says it's just cloud.
Another one: The earth is flat, sphere, or just a dot?
. <- this is a dot, or a square?
Try to think about more like those.
Hate the character count LOL
Basically what we know is too little, knowledge is mere entertainment ^^
cutevil 3 years ago
and now a bow for cutevil....
TryLSDnow 3 years ago
i disagree, infinity exists, though its more about time than space. look at a star that is some number of light years away.
theres a reason theyre called light years you know..
Inkswim 3 years ago
That really made me think. However I kinda believe time and space equally share infinity. Since you are more of a "time" believer, consider halving an area of space consistently.
TryLSDnow 3 years ago
Mathematically, one should be able to do this indefinitely, getting answers for each halving for infinity. Or, let's say even though a distance/space from point A to point B is an exact number, it's the numbers which indefinitely continue to grow smaller with each division, forever. My apology if this is too basic for you. (~);}
TryLSDnow 3 years ago
so if infinity was compared to the ocean, then there'd be a shore surrounding it?
TryLSDnow 3 years ago
i apoligise if this question is not of a itilectual standard but im going to the butterfly effect here does the fact the human race create's chaos in itself were inevitably going to destroy our selves
zeek281 3 years ago
it kinda sad to think, but hopefully the human race destroys itself, before destroying so many more species...
TryLSDnow 3 years ago
The monkeys / typewriters thing has nothing to do with chaos theory, its a saying to try and explain the concept of infinity thru the application of total randomness. Chaos theory is about complex dynamical systems.
timegrinder 3 years ago 2
Yeah, you and many other open-minded folks. Also, I've found many trippers to have pondered the notion. However, I've been suprised at the number of people who've thought it to be heretical. hehe.
TryLSDnow 3 years ago
also, WiseSage3, what's up with salvia? (~);}
TryLSDnow 3 years ago
what you've explained in your video is not in fact thoughts on chaos theory, but in fact thoughts on probability and chance. For example you talk of how 10 monkeys given an infinite amount of time would eventually type out shakespeare's hamlet, this is true, yet it has nothing to do with chaos theory. This example only outlines that nothing is impossible as everything is based on chance and seeing as time is infinite then eventually the said event must happen.
kangaroobin 3 years ago
Thanks for the input. I know what you're saying, but check out the "more info" description link on this vid. I'm aware. I just think it's cool that (somewhat?) order may come from chaos. (~);}
TryLSDnow 3 years ago
i think that there is no end to the universe. i would say that if you keep going and reaching for infinity, youll wind up right where you started.
hiverjr 3 years ago
In opinion perhaps, we are not creting an illusion all. You see, everything we make is to help us understand not to blanket in illusion. I see your statement and understand it but I think thatonce someone has indeed discovered that this blanket is a simle comforting illusion then its not an illusion anymore.
shailor13 3 years ago
a problem with your "recreated world" thought, scientists have recently shown that space is finite, and that time had a beginning, thus Chaos Theory in that since doesn't apply.
candlehawk 3 years ago
Thanks for the input, but maybe there is an end to "space" but I'm sure there is something after "space." Maybe some term not yet defined... or a solid wall(hehe). However, what do you think about infinite smallness? (~);}
TryLSDnow 3 years ago
well at the end of space, you go to the beginning, like how in two dimensions a sphere in infinite, you start off in a path, you keep going until you end up in the starting point, there was no "beginning" and no "end" just one seam less path, that goes on forever, the same is with our universe, as long as we go in 3 dimensions we will go in one seamless path. However if we were to go into the 4th, we would see hyperspace, and other universes. This was taken from Dr. Michio Kaku.
candlehawk 3 years ago
if i understude you you are saying that everything is looped, i think maybe this loop also works with the past present and futer the present is really the past turning in to the futer so the present dosent really exist any ways what im trying to say is that "The Present is the end the present is the begaining" what so you think?
rys5227 3 years ago
My problem with the Creation Theory is that it claims the universe was created by god. But, then how was god created? Maybe through randomness? Anyway, thanks for your interesting, mind-blowing input! (~);}
TryLSDnow 3 years ago
well, we come into the same problem with the big bang theory to quote Stephen Hawking"why does the Universe even bother existing?"
with M- theory we are left with one universe membrane with nothing to collide with to create more big bangs. God solves this, if God is math itself, (and yes, according to our wonderful world of the quantum He must be a being) than he has always existed, else there would be a time before math.
candlehawk 3 years ago
COOL and very hip. and what about the odds for a led zippplin song? (M/D-OO)
TheFlowLox 3 years ago
hehe, or Skynard... but my bets are on a long tweaked out version of "Dark Star." (~);}
TryLSDnow 3 years ago
true dat. say... 1 flop x monkey should do that in about one second. album cover and all- LOL!
TheFlowLox 3 years ago
Why do you think Chaos Theory (I assume that's what you refer to) is "all but fake"?
I'm afraid I don't understand the rest.
killerlimpet 3 years ago
You very much understand, and surpass the meaning of this concept/thought. Thanks for replying.
TryLSDnow 3 years ago
So following this idea I come to realize that I am eternal (as a real entity) for I can exist again an again (this idea gives me chills since I rather be with God as I was taught.Relativity's theory sustains that the Universe is finite in space but endless in time.
jorgecalivalle 3 years ago
Thank you for your comment.
I sometime feel sorry for God, for how was he created and by whom. Many creationists believe humans had to be created, but they never question God's creation. Therefore if God always existed, then why can't humans have evolved from our cosmic stew without God's creation, but instead as a natural occurrence?
TryLSDnow 3 years ago
But, as I learned in my electronics classes, "Energy is never lost - it dissipates into the atmosphere."
Our bodies are filled with energy and upon death, I believe our energy/soul will depart our bodies. Don't let my video influence you if you find comfort in being with God. My vid is only a theory. Anyway, anyone with a good soul like yours, needn't worry. You will be fine.
TryLSDnow 3 years ago
Don't fear death, as a child shouldn't fear being born. Life is of the flesh and full of different senses, where our "souls" are not to know our senses, but find new ones and yet survive, as a naked child in a new world.
TryLSDnow 3 years ago
One last note - it's difficult for me not to believe space isn't infinite - it's like does it finally stop and hit a wall? Also, infinity may go two ways - infinite greatness and infinite smallness. Theoretically, there may be a whole universes in each atom or smaller matter unit. Our bodies could be hosts to whole different areas / galaxies / spaces if we had the technology to really search extremely small particles, millions of times smaller than atoms. I guess, never say never.
TryLSDnow 3 years ago
But, if you believe in God and wish to be with your deity, then I hope your beliefs happen for you. First off, you're a nice person to converse with, and you didn't use negative language posting to me. You seem really nice. Godspeed.
TryLSDnow 3 years ago
Channel, I meant..
trinity31338 3 years ago
You were talking about the universe being infinite, but its not. The universe is growing which means it cannot be infinite. It may be big but it is nowhere close to infinity and will never get to infinity.
ih8gamer 3 years ago
Go to school, or whatever. If the universe is growing, then where is it going to expand? Also, ever heard of infinite smallness? That's a perfect example of infinity.
Imagine Swirled Peas, (~);}
TryLSDnow 3 years ago
The universe itself isn't expanding but the distance between objects is increasing, therefore the entire thing as a whole is "growing",
ih8gamer 3 years ago
Einstein made a clean explanation of Hubble's law observed Hubble's law which indicates that galaxies that are more distant from us appear to be receding faster than galaxies that are closer to us. I know what infinity means, but being infinitely small is known is being infinitesimal. According to Einstein's theory of relativity, a singularity does not contain anything that is actually infinite, only things that move mathematically towards infinity.
ih8gamer 3 years ago
Anything that is curved and has no center of expansion or edge such as a balloon is boundless but finite because its physical extent will come to an end. So you can imagine the universe using that balloon analogy.
trinity31338 3 years ago 2
Trinity31338 - This raises another question. After the physical end to an entity, like the universe, what continues? A solid impenetrable wall or a void of nothingness? Both of these examples would seem to continue for a while. Yet this example is for greatness.
TryLSDnow 3 years ago
What about looking inward, instead of outward, for example, looking at an atom as a galaxy itself, with the core being a sun and the electrons and protons being rotating planets. Look even deeper and we may experience different life forms existing on these different electrons and neutrons. Maybe magnify an atom by the trillions and who knows?
TryLSDnow 3 years ago
If you believe in God, then why look up to the Heavens when looking down to the microcosmic universes may be the same - God is everything and everywhere?
TryLSDnow 3 years ago
TryLSDnow, I and many others have already thought about this. Anyway, if you have the time, go to my youtube profile, and look for my myspace URL. I wrote a blog about the possiblities of the universe being finite/infinite and I tied some of your ideas with it. By the way, I was only speaking for a curved universe.
Thanks
:)
trinity31338 3 years ago
I can't prove infiinity in our universe, as you truly can't prove it in your explanations. What? After the universe ends, there is a solid non-existence or area? Kinda reminds me of the early sailors that believed one could encounter the end of the Earth's ocean and fall into a non-existence. Serious, however, do you believe that at the end of the universe, there is a solid wall? Or an ending? Whatever. Your guess is as good as mine. Thanks for your input.
Sincerely, Try (~);}
TryLSDnow 3 years ago
If you're pulling my leg, good job! You had me going until now.
Else... sigh. If the use of the word arbitrary turns a field into non-reasoning, well, goodbye mathematics! In math, "arbitrarily small" has a technical meaning which is essential for such staples as calculus (theory of limits anyone?) Put in non-technical language, Lorenz's discovery might be better expressed, "For two starting points as close together as you like, their long term behavior will diverge as far apart as you like."
killerlimpet 3 years ago
Meanwhile, I noticed that you replied to nothing in my posts save for a single word you found offensive because you don't understand its technical use. You can assert that my reasoning or math are lacking, but you certainly haven't shown it. Shall I interpret your "goodbye" as a concession?
killerlimpet 3 years ago
Killerlimpet, I had to reply... your concepts and theories are just. What ever gets you through? My theory is simpaly a theory, and not a proven fact. I enjoy my freedom to express myself, even if you disagree. Also, my "goodbye" is a concession, as you put it, for I don't have an argument with your beliefs. Believe as you will, for you are your own in this world.
Sincerely, Try (~);} Imagine Swirled Peas
TryLSDnow 3 years ago
I thought this is called the infinite monkey theorem, not the chaos theory.
snakepit000 3 years ago
living organisms such as us humans are of this sort, dependent on such a web of chance for their coming-to-be that even their possibility - had they not existed - would have evaded prediciton.
IllegalPanda 3 years ago
take for exapmle copper sulfate. it may behave stably in ways that laws of physical and chemical combination of their atomic parts can predict. still, their actual coming to be could not be predicted; only its possibility. other entities have novel rules of stable behavior not predictable from merely general physics or chemistry, and not understandable except within the context of concrete chance world-history.
IllegalPanda 3 years ago
To start, you're grossly misrepresenting Lorenz' discovery- it was not merely that changes in input led to changes in output, but that arbitrarily small changes in input could lead to arbitrarily large changes in output. Lorenz did not run screaming "eureka," but quietly published his results in a little-known meteorological journal.
Now, you seem to claim that your distortion of this idea is deficient because it is trivial. (con't)
killerlimpet 3 years ago
The actual events, as I have described them, were quite counterintuitive to a scientific world trained in studying linear systems as it was at the time; its effect has been likened to one of Kuhn's "revolutions" or "paradigm shifts." As for Perelman, forgive my skepticism. If you can point to him expressing this opinion publically, I'll believe it; else, it's anonymous anecdotal internet name dropping to me. Regardless, I would disagree still, unless Perelman can elaborate. CT places (con't)
killerlimpet 3 years ago
limits on our knowledge (ie, our ability to know the weather accurately a year from now) but it does not prohibit understanding- it can illuminate deep order in apparently random processes. I gave you one example of something that CT tells us about the world, contra your earlier statement that CT effectively makes no predictions. Would you like to explain why Feigenbaum's constant does not represent an understanding of the world that CT has given us?
killerlimpet 3 years ago
... or maybe I'm a mathematician who studies chaos theory and tires of people psuedointellectualizing about things they don't understand? In any event, you are still incorrect; chaos theory does not claim that "anything is possible," but makes several strong predictions about the world- the universality of Feigenbaum's constant in period doubling is one example.
Good day,
Chuckles.
killerlimpet 3 years ago
No it isn't. No it most certainly does not. You have no idea what you are talking about. Good day.
killerlimpet 3 years ago
Sure, monkeys on typewriters are a classic example, but it has nothing to do with Chaos Theory. CT is a specialized branch of mathematics (with applications to physics, chemistry, biology, etc) which, contrary to its name, does not study randomness or disorder, but the ability of relatively simple systems to have complex and surprising behavior. Your monkeys example is true enough, and your conclusions (accepting other assumptions) are plausible, but chaos theory appears nowhere here.
killerlimpet 3 years ago
Chaos Theory is not "just a" theory. Theory in this sense refers to a branch of knowledge, ie, number theory, queer theory, political theory. It is certainly not "only an opinion." The Chaos in the title does not refer to our inability to understand it (A great deal is understood about chaos; Read Gleick's book by that name) but rather our inability to accurately model chaotic systems in the long term.
killerlimpet 3 years ago
that's so retarded. an infinte number of monkeys would type out any sentence you can think of including hamlet in the time it takes for them to strike the keys to do it... becuase there is an infinite number of them! duuuuh!
massiveforces 3 years ago
Correct. Assuming there were an infinite amount of monkeys, at least one of them would type it first time. Even the entire works of Shakespeare, at least one monkey would correctly type it first time around. Also, a theoretical infinite amount of monkeys, billions of them would type it right first time, and an infinite amount more would do it wrong.
VennomX 3 years ago
hah! but you still understimate the word infinite. not at least one, but an infinite number would type them wrong and an infinte number would type them right. infinite does not work like an ordinal number
massiveforces 3 years ago
That is true, it is impossible to model this example in any way really. Even saying 999999 trillion monkeys, there is no guarentee any of them would type anything, trying to imagine what would happen just messes with your head :p
VennomX 3 years ago
hah! but you still understimate the nature of monkey. shit would be flung by the megaton, and all the paper would be rendered unreadable anyway!
massiveforces 3 years ago
y do you keep postin this same thing everywhere
reword or sumthing mann
WyteBudz 3 years ago
If u had an infinite # of monkeys an infinite # would write hamlet because you have an uncountable # of monkeys
rob0is0god 3 years ago
Your Theology prof got it wrong and you took it a bit further into wrongdom.
evilferris 3 years ago
How about reading a book on Chaos Theory before you share your "deep thoughts". I obviously don't know you, but if I had to describe you based on this video, I would say that you were not a smart person trying to be smart. You think you're deep, but in fact you are the opposite. There is an immense amount of fascinating knowledge and theory about this weird universe we live in, please don't cheapen it with ridiculously inaccurate videos that only mislead people.
chechomsky 3 years ago 5
why dont u explain it then!?
adrianballestero 3 years ago
well? what the hell do you believe then? you say this is wrong , where the fuck is the right opinion then? lol ?? come on tell us then ? tell us what this chaos theory actually means? all u done was leave a derogatroy statement which just angers me.
Individuals11 3 years ago
to checkomsky - actually, the more educated I got, the more stupid I felt - and I'm really dumb. As for the Chaos Theory, I do realize what I was taught to be the CT is not correct - read the full discription of my vid.
TryLSDnow 3 years ago
Many people have their own theories for how we came to existence (Creationism, BigBang, Darwinism), thus they all have their own creation theory. Well, the chaos theory in my opinion is the one I use in my vid.
Also, why do actions always have to cause bigger actions for those who believe a butterfly's wings flapping will create a hurricane elsewhere in the world - why not a gentle waft or a ripple in a pond?
Imagine Swirled Peas - (~);}
TryLSDnow 3 years ago
There are only about 3 × 1079 hydrogen atoms in the universe and only 4.3 × 1017 seconds have elapsed since the Big Bang. If the universe were filled with monkeys typing for all time, their total probability to produce a single instance of Hamlet would still be less than one in 10183,800. The probability of Hamlet is therefore zero in any operational sense of an event.
From Textbook on Thermodynamics
moonlightbateman 3 years ago
even though the universe is huge its not infinite. there are different kinds of "infinite". the universe is ever changing.
Jonathick 3 years ago
Completely Wrong!
That is nothing to do with Chaos Theory - that's simple counting techniques and probabilty. (and btw space and time are not infinite - space is only 10^26 meters wide and 10^10 years old.)
Chaos Theory is about the flow on effect in a complex system, whereby an infinitely small change in inital conditions can result in huge changes in final conditions....... (cont)
mallamoozoo 3 years ago
......cont.
(The most famous example is the Butterfly Effect - a butterfly flapping its wings can disturb the complex system of the weather enough to create a hurricane a week later.)
mallamoozoo 3 years ago
Finally somebody who has the same view as me! Although I disagree with the probability part because the monkeys can be replaced with computers making combinations and permutations on the alphabet, no probablity involved.
KikiManini 3 years ago
have you been to the far reaches of space? i sure haven't. can you take me there some time? really really really please with cherries on top?
nofxmike06 3 years ago
Are you seriously trying to say that space is infinite because nobody has gone that far? I can argue the same thing and say have you been going through space a very long time and realised it is infinite? If not, then its obviously finite. I think its best to trust the observational EVIDENCE which shows the universe is quite finite.
KikiManini 3 years ago
WHAT?! The universe by definition is in no way infinite according to the best theories we have, the same theories which explain why the Earth orbits the Sun and apples fall to the ground.
KikiManini 3 years ago
That's exactly what I was going to say! Another theory like this is the 'Six degrees of Separation'. Pretty cool!
gammygoogur 3 years ago
deep... (~);}
TryLSDnow 3 years ago
Think about it, though. What we're referring to is the 3D universe, as we are 3D (I hope). What about a 2D universe? What about (applies chaos theory here)an infinite-dimension theory? At least one of them's got to have other Universal *snigger* laws?
gammygoogur 3 years ago
Our universe is 4D...An infinite dimension theory? Do you care to explain what you mean by infinite dimensions and what evidence or reason is there to accept infinite dimensions or what relevance it has at all to Chaos.
KikiManini 3 years ago
reason and logic are creations by people for people. we know nothing of what is out there. thinking in terms of logic and reason is all we have but it isn't enough.
nofxmike06 3 years ago
Some statements in logic transcend the fact that we are human. Example of statements:
There are 8 planets (bye bye Pluto) in our Solar System. (The statement is either true or false, whether or not humans exist)
So you cannot criticise the entire body of logic and say its flawed merely because its of human creation.
KikiManini 3 years ago
Yes I agree.
In my view if their were an infinite number of monkeys. And say Shakespeares 'Hamlet' was 20,000 characters long, and all monkeys could type at a constant (say 200 characters a minute). Then an infinite number (but by no means all) would have written Hamlet in 100 minutes.
xXSamAshtonXx 3 years ago
i like this theory.... of course there must be another world like ours...... with the universe so vast and big there just HAS to be.......... btw can anybody understand the meaning of "infinity"? cuz i cant. i cant imagine something going on forever...... hmmm
skygirl512 3 years ago
its one of those things. everything has a beginning and end as one of its funamental qualities. something endless is impossible for us to fully comprehend because there is nothing to liken it to
AlmightyFRACTA 3 years ago
A circle
KikiManini 3 years ago
or in the time span it would take that certain monkey to hit all those keys in the correct sequence, since the novel is quite long... Thanks for your valid input. (~);}
TryLSDnow 3 years ago
you are forgetting something. no matter how many monkeys there are, there is a small (VERY VERY SMALL) chance that they will NEVER write shakespear or even that sentence. its like lottery. you hav pretty much no chance to win it. but there is still a chance.
AlmightyFRACTA 3 years ago
If you have an infinite number of computers making an infinite number of permutations and combinations on letters then you know with certainty that all meaningful (and not so meaningful sentences) will be typed. There is no question of probability.
KikiManini 3 years ago
with ALMOST complete certainty. there is also an infinitely small chance that nothing meaningful will ever be typed.
AlmightyFRACTA 3 years ago
There is no such thing as "ALMOST complete certainty". There is no talk of chance or probability. If every combination and permutation of the alphabet where to be compiled all meaningful sentences would be produced. There is no infinitely small chance that it wont, there is no talk of chance! If you claim that there is probability involved, prove it mathematically or logically.
KikiManini 3 years ago
While I'm here...
Since the monkeys are being used as random character generators, probability enters in that not every string of characters need be produced; there is no rule, for example, that prevents the monkeys from simply typing A over and over. It's incredibly improbably but then again so is any string of significant length. This sort of situation is why you sometimes here people talk about events w/"a probability of 1"
killerlimpet 3 years ago
A similar situation is playing "pick a number between 1 and infinity" with a deity. You pick three. The odds of being correct are essentially zero, but it's still possible that you picked correctly.
killerlimpet 3 years ago
if the deity was smart they would pick an extremely large irrational number:P seriously though, very interesting and informative video.
Hatebreeder777 3 years ago
I think the whole monkey business can be ignored. I believe the issue is to do with permutations. You could have said the same thing with an infinite amount of computers performing permutations and combinations with letters. Also according to modern physics the universe is infinite in neither space or time...so no unlimited possibilities as the stars will burn out.
KikiManini 4 years ago
remember to button up (~);}
TryLSDnow 3 years ago
I don't agree with the limit of possibilites due to 'stars burning out', (By the way- new stars are constantly being created). Their energy and mass originated from the big bang; which (according to popular belief) was initially nothing.
Also I feel that I should point out that our space/time universe (in your view) may have limited possibilities. But there maybe be alternate universes governed by different laws of physics.
Just a thought.
xXSamAshtonXx 3 years ago
Yeah, and the big bang is a theory for our universe, but I'm sure there are other "universes" out there or totally different places governed by different laws of physics or totally different unknown concepts. Just a theory... (~);}
TryLSDnow 3 years ago
In this example, if it is possible then it has already happened. This is why infinity cannot exist at this level. Infinity is simply a perception of the unknown in a false reality.
pjeanfreau 4 years ago
not sure about it being a false reality, but I'm not one to shun the thought. Pondering minds want to know. (~);}
TryLSDnow 3 years ago
The chaos theory is a very strange thing to think about. The whole butterflies and hurricanes concept blows me away (no pun intended :P)
Something like..stopping to tie your shoelace results in you being late for you bus, which makes you late for work. Which gets you fired. Which makes you really depressed. Which results in suicide.
Im not saying that just because you get fired means you will kill yourself, thats just a drastic example.
Ace video
KickThePj 4 years ago 3
And of course you know all about Chaos Theory, don't you? ;)
You're quite right: every single decision we make affects everything around us, however small.
Excellent video on your channel, by the way. You clearly worked extremely hard.
jazzguy618 3 years ago
Haha, well..I dont like to brag ;)
Mmmhmm it's a very intresting thing to think about as it branches out so far.
Thanks so much though :D
KickThePj 3 years ago
Actually if you had an infinite number of monkeys doing said task, you would have the complete work of Shakespeare done in an infinitely small quantification of time.
itsacorporatething 4 years ago
Thanks for your reply. Maybe time isn't a factor, if the universe in infinite - then maybe whatever is possible is happening somewhere else, like at a microscopic, macroscopic, or in our level? For infinity goes into infinite smallness and greatness, too.
TryLSDnow 4 years ago
You and your professor are missing a key point about Infinity. That is, if an infinite number of monkeys were typing on keyboards one of those Monkeys would type Hamlet from beginning to end, with no errors....Immediately.... As infinity is quite big.
canvas42 4 years ago
Also, a more open comment - surely infinity does not 'make all things possible'. Infinite monkeys may type Shakespeare, but could they speak it? No, because monkeys lack the necessary vocal equipment. Would I ever be able to touch my right elbow with my right hand (without harm)? Or George Bush correctly to pronounce the word 'nuclear'? (I begin to see why he prefers not to think of himself as evolved from monkey forbears...).
hegs100 4 years ago
The concept of infinity has **nothing** to do with Chaos theory, a mathematical theory, which does not depend upon infinity to create its effects. Your Theology professor is not a Mathematics professor, and has misled you.
hegs100 4 years ago
Wouldn't that be defined as ideas into dementions. What if there is a super subconsciousness communicating between these monkeys. How do you know It will definitely appear or eventually happen? Its a growing change in ideas to create a sentence. There is a possibility that sentence would never appear and besides the fact that that it already exsists. Could be the same with the Universe.
Musashia1 4 years ago
That has to be the greatest argument for intelligent design I've ever heard. If chaos is an academic theory, then the academy is wholly in a new dark age. I invented the infinite universe theory when I was 15 in 1973. At the time physicists were positing an end to space.
neverbeenfree 4 years ago