Another common misconception of Sword-fighting. (series)

[jaredtime87]

Me no English very good.

[volarion]

@MrInfinitifitness does what????

[MrInfinitifitness]

Very brief yet clear explanation. A lot of people does this, and at the end of the day, the only one got hurt is your sword (and your wallet).

[hybriddefect]

This is a little snippet of information, but it's on such a fundamental level that it completely alters how I think about sword fighting. I find it much easier to spot people who looked skilled but still have no idea what they are doing. These videos have really helped my studies, especially in who's information i can trust.

[976723]

They do this in movies to avoid teaching every single actor there own choreography. To save time and money. I have never seen this by main characters in any movie.

[EntryStackEnthusiast]

@976723 Don't forget that they don't want to risk their main cast to get hit with even a dull but heavy piece of metal. 

[volarion]

@GianniWatchesVideos trust me far too many people take movies and anime as fact, i get where your coming from but here in america people are often woefully ignorant of what real european swordsmanship is.

[GianniWatchesVideos]

Cool stuff guys, although to be honest I didn't think there was anybody out there who didn't realize that stage-fighting is way different than a real fight. Any expert fencer could watch a sword fighting flick and identify about twenty missed openings per three seconds.

Not that I'm an expert fencer or anything, and I still enjoy watching sword fighting flicks regardless.

That being said, nice videos!

[IaMaPh1991]

on the flat and bend of break them, and this may be where people get that he doesnt advocate use of the flat at all ever. But the excessive crushing force and leverage of a curb stomp and a light displacement using natural flow of energy are two totally different things.

Just a few thoughts I figured id share. Always love a healthy logical debate :) Take care everyone!

[IaMaPh1991]

btw, I wouldnt really use Talhoffer or Fiore as "evidence" of explicit preference for either edge or flat parrying. Talhoffer just lists "technique vs technique" and offers little actual instruction or pedagogy at all. Fiore is very wordy in his descriptions of what he did, but I cannot recall his actual instructions on "parrying", frm what ive read its mostly described as counters, which as I stated before can be done many ways. Now Fiore does like to stomp on peoples blades (continued)

[IaMaPh1991]

plenty of other means to counter and defeat your opponent. No master was exclusionary in his techniques, and you will find BOTH parts of the sword used for their respective proper purposes n a variety of means in a lot of sources. For instance, youll find "displace with thy long or short edge", "parry his stroke on your flat", "intercept his stroke on the flat or cross at the strong", "strike against his cut", "strike to his flat" and others in Meyer and Wallerstein, two sources quoted so far

[IaMaPh1991]

defeat itself if it hits on his flat. the transfer of force and energy will give his counter extra "spring" power to strike around to the next opening as it is revealed, and all while his enemy's strike is easily glanced off. So that all being said, to put it in simple terms, you can strike edge to flat, properly intercept edge blows with your flat, counter displace somewhat less angled edge on edge if you use the stronger base of your sword, evade and strike to an opening, and (continued)

[IaMaPh1991]

or if you MUST make blade contact, you can do so in a variety of ways. you primarily DISPLACE with your edge on either his flat or near his edge at a good angle (ie, zorn, zwerch, krump etc), but never do you see perpendicular 90 degree static block/parry on your edge. you can also use your flat to intercept cuts or ward blows as you counter cut (schielhau, hanging ward, shrankhut, etc).if one is good and masters his force, leverage and time, he can cause an enemys strike to (continued)

[IaMaPh1991]

The correct answer is you do a little of BOTH in combat. You cant be exclusionary about techniques that can be effective in combat given the correct situations. I have about 20 books on European Sword Arts and spend countless research hours researching multiple archives and pdf scans of original manuscripts, and I can tell you that while i cant list every instance, you logically will want to counter with a single or half time strike or thrust at his opening as it appears, or if you (continued)

[mouthforwar17]

bullshit...medieval manuscripts advise to block with the edge.ive always heard arma preaching about flat blocking...you cant adiquately pull off some guards and parries by blocking with the flat..

[gurkfisk89]

@mouthforwar17

I haven't seen any clear statement in the medieval manuscripts either for or against edge blocks. I myself often use the flat but not always. Can you please direct me to where the manuscripts advise this, I would like to read it in the context.

[mouthforwar17]

@gurkfisk89 i believe talhoffer indtructs not to use the flat i think fiore also states not to use flat.but as far as being a tool even against plate armor they were effective..look at halfswording techniques and the evolution of the blade. the pommel was made into more of a mace like object and the blade tapered more to get between plate. plus techniques exist so you dont strike armor and get between gaps and weak areas

[Treifla]

@mouthforwar17 i think it's more of a matter of trying to block with the flat when you have the choice, swords were never really that great of a tool in battle against evenly matched opponents, especially when plate is involved, more likely they were used as a status symbol, and a way for knights to effectivly cut down less armoured (and less wealthy) opponents like the common rabble. there is a disconect between battle use and dueling, and i think this is where the problem lies.

[mouthforwar17]

@Treifla as far as being a tool even against plate armor they were effective..look at halfswording techniques and the evolution of the blade. the pommel was made into more of a mace like object and the blade tapered more to get between plate. plus techniques exist so you dont strike armor and get between gaps and weak areas

[Treifla]

@mouthforwar17 effective, i will give that, but compared to a hammer or similar weapon? i don't know if they would be.

[mouthforwar17]

@Treifla thats where the length of the blade comes in vs the one handed size of a hammer...you wont have to block if youre good

[tantorecords]

my advice to you loud american: if you're sword is "dinged" and rendered useless after a single flurry of parries... try buying a hardened steel one next time not a $60 soft steel fabrication off youtube lol. And yes, basically this video covers nothing. If they are out of range you need not worry. thanks.

[HereTheArtBegins]

@tantorecords

You'd be surprised how many people actually don't realize such a simple truth as cutting towards someone else's body and how many people take precisely the sort of display he's showing here as if it were "authentic" European swordsmanship. I deal with this persistently even with other Medieval history students at my university and endlessly online.

[mojothemigo]

@tantorecords I thought just about every seriouse sword style poo-pooed edge to edge contact except MAYBE modern western fencing/sabre fighting. He might be stating the obviouse, but sometimes the obviouse must be pointed out for those of us that do not know how to swordfight and have a lot of bad info on TV and movies. Seriouse question though, can you still buy usable swords in the UK? I thought I read you have some goofy laws you can't own a newly made (as apposed to antique) sword.

[tantorecords]

@mojothemigo Yes you can buy usable swords in the UK, you can buy them sharpened as well but only for cutting exercises and you must be insured to own one. Blunts are fine for re-enactors as well. You can buy some beautiful swords from certain british armouries if you know where to look.

[mojothemigo]

@tantorecords WOW, that is a horrible law. I hope things change and thank you for answering

[tantorecords]

@mojothemigo it's not too bad actually - if youre a member of a club or society the insurance is free, so i've got 4 sharps and 2 blunt re-enactment swords.

[mouthforwar17]

@tantorecords thank you.!! ARMA gives a bad name to people interested in these martial arts,,blocking with the flat terrible and historical sources even say not to

[tantorecords]

@mouthforwar17 Most of it is beyond a joke. They have no right to promote themselves as being a source of accuracy with OUR martial arts. I often wander if they have ever even bothered to look at the manuscripts they claim to interpret in their teachings. Most of it seems made up, fanciful film fighting. Especially the fucking wrestling bullshit they preach about.

[mouthforwar17]

@tantorecords i do re-enacting in california...yes my groups routines are choreographed BUT weve been making it a group goal to learn about these techniques the correct way as they were done in centuries past. a few members of my group including me are rejecting our choreographed routines and are learning the true way of the sword by studying old manuscripts such as talhoffer and other sources like fiore. we take pride in the art by learning the correct way

[mouthforwar17]

@tantorecords my group will soonbe incorporating these original techniques into our re-enactments for better realism..also you cant beat true sword arts even if it is in a re-enactment. it just looks good and like it hasnt been choreographed

[FlashHawk4]

@davehead3

Pretty much, it's as if two boxers go into the ring and punch each other in the knuckles.

[davehead3]

So, essentially, hitting on the sword is less effective than hitting on the swordsman.

[DiabolusIgnis]

A dull sword is better than nothing. It doesn't cut, but does very well crack open a skull with a hit. Just saying =P

@SirTreSwordReviews, we don't use the flat to parry, we use the edge, because it's stronger. I don't know about the Chinese swords, but that is the case with the longsword.

[Lukos0036]

@DiabolusIgnis The guys in the video just said they do use the flat. And every reconstructionist I have seen has said the same thing. Defend with the flat, attack with the edge.

[DiabolusIgnis]

@Lukos0036 You really shouldn't use the flat, as the edge is stronger.

[Lukos0036]

@DiabolusIgnis The flat will flex, it's supposed to. But not much. It is a steel bar after all. You bang up your edge your sword will be compromised and it will snap. The storm blows the the proud oak over, the reed bends and survives.

[Halofreakanoid]

@DiabolusIgnis : Don't put mindless garbage into his head, you NEVER block or parry with edge unless it's a properly angled parry that doesn't damage the sword. FLAT OF THE STRONG, is where all the manuscripts from longsword master say to block and parry.

[DiabolusIgnis]

@Halofreakanoid You again? Your edge is stronger than your flat. Need I say more? This is very easily tested, too.

Your opinion versus mine, Fiore dei Liberi's and Guy Windsor's opinions... Really interesting. Do give me proof of Talhoffer & co. telling you to parry with the weaker part of your sword.

Flat of the strong? That means absolutely nothing. Edge on flat. Strong on weak. Besides Fiore does tell you to parry with your edge. Because it's stronger. Quite simple logic.

[Halofreakanoid]

@DiabolusIgnis : It is NOT stronger than the flat. The flat of the strong is located near the base of your blade on the flat. Trying reading something from MEYER, the LONGSWORD MASTER of the rennaisance. It's not an opinion, it's simply science. Blocking with the edge gives a HUGE disadvantage to the fighter doing so, there is both no point to it, and doesn't allow for as many counter-attacks. You CAN parry with your edge, but NEVER block. You will DESTROY the blade.

/watch?v=TtNZQBc4RpE

[Halofreakanoid]

"Despite what some enthusiasts imagine they see, there are also no edge-on-edge blocks in the various editions of Talhoffer’s fencing texts. As researcher-practitioner Mark Rector notes in his modern version of the 1467 Talhoffer Fechtbuch, “Talhoffer never shows anything resembling static, blade on blade blocks. His setting aside techniques are fluid and dynamic, and naturally lead into counter-attacks.” "

[Halofreakanoid]

@DiabolusIgnis "In its section on the Langenmesser, the Von Bauman version of the mid 15th century Codex Wallerstein more than once specifically instructs to defend by setting aside blows mit der flech (or mit de Flache) – that is literally, “with the flat”. "

Is that enough to convince you yet?

[DiabolusIgnis]

@Halofreakanoid Ah, but see, that alone does not convince me, as you fail to present me with any source at all, however convincing it might sound. I also must comment on the weapon in question, the langes messer, which is not a longsword for all that I care, but a long knife. It doesn't work in the same way. You're holding it with one hand, it's wider and it is much shorter, making the flat about as strong as the edge.

tl;dr-version, nope. Wrong weapon.

[Halofreakanoid]

@DiabolusIgnis : Youtube doesn't allow for sources, and there is far more to the writing than the Langer messer. But he talks about that the most, the person you read about when it comes to the longsword is Meyer, and he says the same thing about longswords. Some teachers of the eras did say to block with the edge, but they have long since been discredited by more accomplished masters of the same time period, and they are widly regarded as inferior techniques by anyone who does their research.

[Halofreakanoid]

@DiabolusIgnis: thearma (dot) org/essays/edgemyth (dot)htm

[DiabolusIgnis]

@Halofreakanoid This wouldn't fit into a comment, so I'll just PM you instead. =)

[gurkfisk89]

@DiabolusIgnis

Please try to fit it into comments, break it into a lot of comments if you have to. Because I think that this is very interesting and I want to read more about it.

[DiabolusIgnis]

@gurkfisk89 I really don't want to flood a rant here. I'll copypaste my message to you, okay? If Halofreakanoid (oh, the name...) wishes you to know our conversation, he can copypaste his answer here or straight to you, but I won't copy someone else's messages.

[gurkfisk89]

@DiabolusIgnis

OK, that would be nice. And I understand if you don't want to post private messages here because they are, well private =)

[DiabolusIgnis]

@gurkfisk89 Great ^^ I sent it.

[gurkfisk89]

@DiabolusIgnis

After reading what you sent to me I think you both are saying the same thing. That you don't want to strike edge on edge. Of course you can parry with the edge if you parry on his flat. So I think you are saying that "you can parry with your edge" and Halofreakanoid is saying that "you don't want parry edge on edge if you can avoid it". Those two can be true at the same time.

(Correct me if I'm wrong and your points went over my head.)

[DiabolusIgnis]

@gurkfisk89 I thought of that possibility, too. But he did say you never block or parry with the edge.

But I also mean that you want to parry with your edge, if at all possible. Simply because it is stronger. Whereas he says it's wrong, and sent me an essay saying it's right. I think he might mean you never want edge on edge contact. You shouldn't go for it, since I'm pretty sure you can always parry edge on flat, and edge on edge only if you do it wrong.

You do make a valid point.

[Halofreakanoid]

@gurkfisk89 : Yes, that was what I was originally going for. Parrying or blocking with flat, or parrying with edge against opponent's flat. What I thought he was implying was edge on edge parrying. 

[Halofreakanoid]

@DiabolusIgnis : Yes, my name has to do with a game. I've had this account since I was 14.

[DiabolusIgnis]

@Halofreakanoid I understand. You have my most heartfelt condolences. But it's not that hard to change your account, if you wish to have a nick which would describe you a bit better. You're not any game-fag, for whatever I care.

[Halofreakanoid]

@DiabolusIgnis : I have strong emotional ties to things I create, I've had no desire to change it.

[DiabolusIgnis]

@Halofreakanoid IMHO it gives a very bad image of you. However proud you might be, you're not such a bad person. Being tied to Halo makes you look somewhat childish, and I believe that's the first impression people get about you. I suggest you change your nick, become less aggressive and drop that foolish pride for a bit.

[Halofreakanoid]

@DiabolusIgnis : So be it, if people just decide with their eyes then it's their own fault. It is less pride and more nostalgia.

I still play games, it's not like it's not me anymore. But I'm a man of many things.

[DiabolusIgnis]

@Halofreakanoid First impressions are something you really have no control over. I wasn't talking about pride in games. I do play games too, although I like strategy more than shooters.

[Halofreakanoid]

@DiabolusIgnis : This is true.

I'm an all around gamer, but I'm best at shooters. Reflexes I suppose. I'm not one of those idiots that screams into the mic and acts like an ass though.

[DiabolusIgnis]

@Halofreakanoid Good to hear.

[FoolingWithFuhlen]

I seriously can't watch movie sword combat without cringing. I wish everyone would educate themselves with videos like these

[Gariel2007]

@FoolingWithFuhlen but theh i could never watch Star Wars again... and that aint ganna happen my friend. in fact i'm going to stop watching this vids right now and throw in the Stars wars Trilogy. Thankyou, you've opened my eyes

[Farrem]

Why there's a brazilian flag there?

[Charlizard777]

I'm happy ARMA exist to educate us about such things.

[SirTreSwordReviews]

as a Chinese swords style person, i had a misconception myself about euro longsword. in jian we use the flat to parry, i was pleased to see that you all do as well.... i blame movies. of course they do the sam guff with pistols... when a person uses a pistol like a movie everything gets shot but the true target :)

[kaindrg]

@SirTreSwordReviews really i just though it was mechanically obvious. then again ive never paid attention to movied fighting