Cold Missouri Waters - Cry Cry Cry

[ChezKiva]

Whatever the story, this is a great venue for me to say my last goodbye to my dear friend Regan Cole, an unsung soldier of the folk music movement since around '61. We'll send you our love in this song...

[swansondew]

Whoops, the crew was from Missoula, not the fire. My bad.

[swansondew]

The song is factually incorrect, but still a good one. The Mann Gulch fire happened in Missoula, Montana. Not Missouri. And 13 men died, 3 survived. Bob Sallee survived the fire and is in fact the last of the three to still be living.

[CanmoreMiner]

@swansondew There is nothing factually incorrect about this song. It clearly states that the fire is in north Montana. The river is the Missouri River, hence the title. All Missouri references are to the river not the state.

[ZeldaGlitterKitty]

@MrJamesesmith: yes, they did survive the fire. Walt Rumsey was apparently killed in a plane crash in the early 80's (I think) but Robert Salee survived into good old age.

[ZeldaGlitterKitty]

I love you Wag - you deserved so much better than you got...

[Alexmcgruer3]

I heard this for the first time today.

I am a jumper but not a fire fighter..

Love the story, know the background as I sported joining the fire service.

Very touching....

[MrJamesesmith]

Great You Tube.....but I thought that Robert Salee, along with Walt Rumsey, survived by outrunning the fire....

[sprtwolf71]

Actually it is written and originally performed by James Keelaghan, but yes this is the Cry Cry Cry Version with Richard Shindell singing it. Lucy Kaplansky and Dar Williams are on harmony.

[gwienbarg]

Richard Shindell

[Pe30Beat]

who sings this song ?

[Pe30Beat]

ho sings this song ?

[janiepdoodle]

One of the boys I grew up with fights fires for us. I applaud him.

[smokey1255]

What a song and a tribute not only to Wag but all of my brothers and sisters who risk their lives to slay the forest dragon. Unfortunately we've had too many fires like Mann Gulch. I was on the line near El Cariso when the Loop Fire dragon stole 12 of my friends. I've been out of firefighting now since 1987 but as part of the brotherhood, firefighting isn't out of me. I grieve deeply for each one who dies ajnd commit them to eternal peace. They are truly blessed.

[jjzanoni]

This song reminds me of the great west after the war, towering pines, America in love again with their great outdoors, mountains, rivers, the big sky country beckoning us to take to the road and see what an incredible place we call home. And to those who protected it, and paid the ultimate price to preserve it for those who came later. We owe you so much.

[shamrockclark]

way to rip off a good song title u stupid fucks,,,,and u suck

[eileen63105]

Terrific song!

I reflect on the pilot flying over the nuclear plants in Japan.

Very moving song.

[Terrordales]

James wrote the song, but I feel it celebrates the lives of those who are prepared to put themselves in danger to save others or their property.

Read the book, James admits that's where he got the inspiration from for the song.

[MsTubbytube]

Lyrics are by James Keelaghan, I think they are some of the most incredible I know of - a song about a horrible fire that used imagery of a cold river...

But the lead singer here, Richard Shindell, is the one who brings it alive, and puts tears in my eyes whenever I hear it. Almost up there with Hurt as performed by Johnny Cash.

[mpsingleton]

I've loved this song for years, and my heart still comes up from my belly every time I hear it. It makes me want to take up my instruments again, so I can sing it for others.

[raincoatmusic]

a beautifully written and thoughtful song... Wag Dodge is truly a legend in the wildland fire world... one of the earlier records of using a safety fire... if the crew had listened many more of them would have likely lived, but there's always that moment of decision between a calculated act like lighting a safety fire or these days perhaps deploying a fire shelter... or the age old... "feet don't fail me now". I hope you have great peace now Wag. You deserve it.

[rdwfire41]

Awesome song. The history of this song can be found in the book "Young Men and Fire" an account of the Mann Gultch fire. History repeated itself at the South Mountain fire in Colorado. Be safe out there all of you who take on the beast in the mountains.

[gdurkee]

For more information, see the Wikipedia entry on Mann Gulch Fire. There are some comments below on why some didn't drop their tools. When accidents are examined, it's often found that people revert to their training and that's likely what happened -- just an automatic response to not let go of their tools because that's what they're taught to do.

On the positive side, the USFS made this central to developing safer fire-fighting practices. Definitely read Norman Maclean's Young Men and FIre.

[MrHayiz4horses]

my great uncle died in that he is honored by many

[SirXtofur]

@MrHayiz4horses Who was your great uncle?

[levendi49]

An incredible song performed by an incredible trio of musicians which details a tragic fire which occurred three months before I was born....so thankful that it has been documented in this wonderful piece of music

[mohz2010]

"The fire was spotted by a forest ranger around noon on August 5, 1949. James O. Harrison, the recreation and fire prevention guard for Meriwether Canyon Campground, had given up his former job as a smokejumper to find a less dangerous profession."

Harrison was the the person who brought the death total to 13. 15 jumped. Harrison joined the crew on the ground making 16. 13 died. Sullee would be awfully surprised to find that he didn't survive. ;-)

[mohz2010]

In cruel irony, the ranger used to be a smoke jumper but at the urging of his mother he quit and took a job with the park service. She urged him to quit because she was afraid for his safety as a fire fighter.

[mohz2010]

This is very nice.

But there is a mistake. Where you list the survivors of the Mann Gulch Fire there were three:

Bob Sallee

Walter Rumsey

and Dodge

When he says "non but two survived" in the song he isn't counting himself.

[EddieKingZ1992]

@mohz2010 nope...its counting himself...fifteen of them went into the fire, thirteen dead...only two survived including him..

[conor610]

@EddieKingZ1992 There was a sixteenth man there, Jim Harrison, who didn't jump in but was fighting the fire before the jumpers got there. So, sixteen total, three survivors including Dodge. In the song, he's not counting himself.

[simonarcher20002]

@conor610 He says 15 " others" dropped above ... So he's either not counting himself or somebodyelse was already there ... Anyway ... professor Karl Wieck gives an incredible account of what happened there and some equally incredible and counterintuitive explanations of why those people eventually died when escape was so affordable ... Karl Wieck, " The collapse of sense making in organizations" The academy of management review ... I guess is was year 1993 or 1983 I don't remember ...:)

[conor610]

@simonarcher20002 The line is "fifteen OF US dropped above the cold Missouri waters." Fifteen jumpers, one other ranger, thirteen dead, two besides Dodge survived. Read "Young Men and Fire" for all the details.

[bobslugger]

I know this song well but the images add an incredible feel and reality to it. Thanks for your effort. It was wonderful

[angels187420]

LIL WAYNE IS BETTER

[sciowapker]

this song is fucking horrible, this is the twenty first century. I understand liking older music but what the fuck, this? Seriously??

[MrFix3]

@sciowapker So what defines "newer" or "21st century" music? Justin Bieber? Lady Gaga? Folk is folk, and it's been around since humans started making music. New artists are recording new folk songs every day.

[sciowapker]

@MrFix3 listen you mother fucker and listen good. This shit doesn't sound good anymore. People made new music because the other shit got old and boring. Listening to this is like living your life in the woods naked. People change for a reason YOUR JUST AFRAID TO ACCEPT CHANGE FUCKER.

[MrFix3]

@sciowapker You're obviously trolling, but what the heck. What exactly defines "change"? My musical tastes are nearly as broad as your forehead, from Beethoven to NIN, Presley to Titus Andronicus, Guthrie to Shindell, Stones to Sex Pistols, Beatles to Eye Alaska. I thrive on change, but that doesn't preclude liking all great music. So your theory is wrong. Next theory?

[SmokePole59]

@sciowapker Most of the new music is just trivial crap, recorded because some girl can wiggle and squeak. If that's your speed, go for it.

[themuse64]

A good version. I heard it live from Keeligan at Kate Wolf Festival one year, and that one is burned into my soul. This rivals the emotion of that live performance.

[Brighty18]

I love their version of this song and you did a very fine job with telling the story visually.

[Chicagoan444]

I think this is a difficult song to sing well, and Cry Cry Cry does a beautiful job with it. The pictures go so well with the song. . . I just find this production very moving and emotional. Great job.

[breesana]

each word sung is clear, each word communicates emotioin, a regret in ever note. so beautiful

[A9158162]

this is the best version ever! love it so so much

[jemckinn1]

no one can sing this song like James Keelaghan

[lgcrooks]

@jemckinn1

You are absolutely right! This version is so-so. However, Jane Leche does a very, very good cover (Mann Gulch Fire Tribute).

[papsthe3rd]

this song makes me want to be a better person than i am. he is a hero no matter what anyone says. if he tried to save people he is a hero. put one self above all and ye she be........what ever you like.

[bdkellmer]

the survivor list misses Bob Sallee

[papsthe3rd]

such a beautiful song

[SEVFEST]

This song is outta sight Thanx for posting it The whole CD is great but this tune sticks out above & beyond Dar Williams, Richard Shindell and Lucy Kaplansky make one hell of a fabulous trio...

[kenorian]

Recently took "Young Men and Fire" out from the library. Great story, a great song... thanks for this...

[BeeCool866]

i <3 this video. amazing song

[Wesleyintheory]

They had the last survivor on an interview on NPR The Story, go look it up on Itunes to listen to it. I only knew the song and then heard the story and it just made the song more powerful

[davidalexander79]

The most shocking fact is that they found them dead with their tools on. None of them dropped the tools to make it easier to run ... and the daunting question is WHY? An even more daunting answer is that they had "no tools to drop" ... Shovels, chainsaws and the like are not "tools" ... their are extensions of their identities ... because they are FIREFIGHTERS ... If they drop the "tools" then what are they?

[Farfignewton1]

You have to understand that back then, they were caught to keep hold of their tools because they were held liable for them; it's not like today, with the development of the 10's and 18's ( Watchout Conditions ), that were created to prevent what happened at Mann Gulch, and the change in ideology that no matter what, life is worth more than property.

[simonarcher20002]

Do you think that in that hell they had the time to think of being held liable if they dropped the tools and let them behind? I don't think so... They didn't had the time to realize they were actually carrying the tools ... because the tools were part of their identity ... But that's not my idea ... I read it in books and journals trying to explain that terrible disaster ...

[Farfignewton1]

The fire moved from the South Ridge and dropped via-firebrand to the West where they were headed ( Toward the Missouri River ) in order to attack the Fire from the black. They couldn't see the fire until it was right ontop of them because it initiated on the otherside of the drop, closest to the Missouri River; it's understandable why some of them still had their tools on them accidentally, because the rate of the first was some 120 ft/min, on an 18% Hill-Grade.

[NevTheDeranged]

Heard a bit of this song on the episode of The Story about the Mann Gulch Fire, and had to track it down. Beautiful and haunting.

[BelindaKyle]

This is Richard Shindell singing lead on a James Keelaghan song -- listen to James singing it for a wonderful different interpretation. The book is mesmerizing, and they persecuted Dodge to his death of a non-Hodgkjins lymphoma, partially, I think, due to guilt and exhaustion. He did right and they blamed him for all the deaths. The escape fire is accepted practice now. My heart hurts when I think of Dodge's suffering, in the name of Fire Service's misguided persecution.

[LesPaulable]

they should make a movie , the book and this song is phenomenal

[K1P2]

I keep thinking of this incident & hearing the song in my head, as I watch the flames on the hills of the Station fire that is raging right now in So. Cal. Despite the experience since Mann Gulch, improved technology and abundant resources being used on this fire, it keeps growing. Dodge couldnt have known that the Mann Gulch fire would become the monster that it did.

[LesPaulable]

did you read the book?

[tjpjk33]

One main reason they kept running was because they thought he was crazy. In those days to light a fire to escape from a fire was not policy, it wasn't even discussed. The fact that Dodge thought of that in the spur of the moment under those circumstances is truly amazing!

[davidalexander79]

"The Collapse of Sense Making in Organisation"

Admnistrative Science Quarterly

Karl Weick

It teaches us how "sense making" breaks down in "cosmology episodes", situations we've never been in ... so called "ja de view" (opposite of deja view)

The Mann Gulch disaster is just one of the examples ...

Respect for the heros ... better if they were alive and well and we knew nothing about all this ...

[davidalexander79]

Yet, there is an even more shocking fact ... It sounds like Dodge had found the solution in the escape fire. Why didn't the other firefighters jump into the escape fire? Why did they "cursed" Dodge (as the song says)? Was it because they did not hear him? Or because they decided to take the "race" on their own, Dodge having been already wrong after mistakenly sizing the fire? In this last case, there is a pure case of lack of leadership on Dodge's side ...

[davidalexander79]

The paper goes even further to introduce the notion of "improvisation" (planning in action) ... the escape fire set up by Dodge ... and you can see this in the song as well when he says ... "I don't know why ... I just thought it" ... I struck a match " ... this was Weick's best epitome for planning in action

[davidalexander79]

There's an outstanding paper by Karl Weick. He tries to explain what happened there ... Why didn't firefighters drop their tools to make it easier for them to run? The answer is truly stunning ... They did not drop the tools because they had none ... Of course, they were found with the tools upon them but, from inside, they had no tools ... what seemed to be tools to us ... was part of their IDENTITY - FIREFIGHTERS ... What are they without their tools?

[Roulette55]

this is James Keelaghan

[wernox]

Its written by Keelaghan, but that's Richard Shindell singing.

[Roulette55]

word

[ntoolebwick]

oh man such a great song. it was a favorite when preformed at my camp.

[TMacMT1]

Bob Sallee was supposed to be on hand for the 60th anniv, but was unable to make it. hiked to the head of Mann Gulch last week. A small fire had gone through it a few days earlier. Oddly, the location of Wag Dodge's small fire had burned black as hell.

Spooky!

Yes...very sad song, sad story, Hard not to cry when you look at the markers.

[crewsader100]

i cant listen to this song with out crying

[mugmiso]

There was an interview today on American Public Radio's "The Story" with Bob Sallee who was one of the 2 men besides Wag Dodge who lived. Excellent interview, I don't think this lets me post the link, worth googling.

[PlaytoLive03]

I have been jumping out of Missoula for 20 years. We always remember the 13 who died. Done Mackey should be remembered as well. He died on the Storm King fire. He was a good bro and I miss him.

[wernox]

Don Makey was a hero.....we all miss him.

[wernox]

He's talking about Sallee and Rumsey as the survivors, not himself. Also, Navon was Jewish so the placed a star of David for him, there are 14 markers in Mann Gulch.

[wernox]

only 13, my math was fouled up.

[EthanSurbaugh]

Respect well deserved to the Smoke Jumpers.

[WildFruit12]

I always become sad with this song its so beautiful but the story behind it is full of hate and anger and sadness... and so many men died because they were scared to listen

[ford1580]

im a firefighter and i wish that we would lean from the fatel fire but we repeating the sam mistake when will it stop this song good reminder of what we should rember.

[Jay3039]

i love a good story song

and i love richard shindell

[machadoneto41]

Touching..Lov it. Congrats.

[Kiloburn]

We listened to this song every day on our way to set prescribed fires when I worked for the nature conservancy. Sure kept us on our toes!

[ryanmalham]

This is such a great story song.  I love it. One of my fav from RS and Keelahan.

[lswope58]

A beautiful song about fire so warm and deadly. Thanks, Bruce!

[doctordave52]

step into the fire to save yourself from fire, a great metaphor and paradox, kind of like surrender to win but with a deadly consequence. A vry touching song. You can feel the anguish.

[Chicagoan444]

Beautiful version of this song, and I love the photos. However, there's one error. I think it only lists two survivors of the fire, when actually there were three - Dodge, Rumsey, and Salle. The latter two visited Mann Gulch again, years later, and were quoted in the book "Young Men and Fire". It's worth a read.

[Finitetoast]

Well, the song is told in Dodge's voice, and he says "there were none but two survived," not counting himself. So that makes three total, which is correct, although Dodge was long dead by the time MacLean wrote Young Men and Fire.

[intracoast]

Cry, cry, cry...indeed. I am reminded of Dave Barry's long ago article of the differences between Latin music and English music. He claimed that "The Sinking of the Edmond Fitzgerald" was a typical of the English style and "La Vida Loca" was typical of the Latin style. Funny to me. This song seems to fit into that style. Great song still.

[jackwhiskey]

I prefer the tempo to this version than any other. It moves with some urgency to it. . . .like it should given the circumstances of the event. And those diminished and major-seventh choral chords are very well-placed to emphasize fear and anxiety. The man must have died a thousand deaths after this event before this deathbed account.

[BobAcoustic]

I was a big fan of Dar Williams, and hence of "Cry Cry Cry" when I first heard this song. It wasn't till a couple years later that I learned that it was about a real event.

A former fire-jumper told me about it, said that every new recruit is made to learn about this fire.

[oldbearswitch]

Hi Bob, sorry to say but most of the wildfire deaths in modern times are because the lessons of the Mann Gulch disaster, and the guidlines formed in its aftermath are violated or neglected.

MG, Storm King, Engine 57, Lt Rucker, all had similar causes. Of course MG was the first so it led to the FF general orders.

Sadly, ther are too few books about wildland FF. Young men and fire is about SK mountain, and good.

[Theatreman19]

I have to say i LOVE this version of this song. Absoloutly lovely. I have to ask though, wasn't there another survivor? I thought it was Wag Dodge, Walter Rumsey, and Robert Salee. I may just be losing my mind

[jackwhiskey]

One of those was a ranger, not a smoke jumper I think.

[Theatreman19]

I believe it was harrison that was the ranger. But he mentions in the song that fifteen of them jumped and there are only 13 dead listed, including the ranger. I read the young men and fire some time ago, and im pretty sure when dodge says in the song"none but two survived" he ment Rumsey and Salee.

[jackwhiskey]

You're right. There was another survivor. Keelaghan acknowledges (paraphrased) in his cover notes from the "Then Again" CD: "The 15 jumpers were joined by the ranger....who had hiked up to meet them at the top of Mann Gulch. Fifteen jumpers plus one ranger is sixteen people on the fireline. Three survived so....13 crosses." I don't know which three.

[Theatreman19]

Cool, im not crazy. The three that survived are Robert Salee, Walter Rumsey, and Wag Dodge. Thanks for the clarification!

[sxeptomaniac]

Coming late, but if you've read Young Men and Fire, MacLean mentions that Robert Jansson, a district ranger, was trying to walk up Mann Gulch from the river to meet them and barely escaped alive (he was caught in the middle of several spot fires and actually passed out for a short while after escaping the center). He could be considered a survivor, and led the rescue efforts as well.

[stars1861]

"My name is Dodge, but then you know that..." So many emotions in this song. Great job. Think they'll ever put out another album?

[jeffsaxton22]

@stars1861 Rumour has it that Dar & Richard were not at the best of terms at the end of their tour. Too bad. They made some great music together.

[spooksie24]

Great work, thank you. I love it, have to watch it again and again...

[ElMcMeen1]

Awesome job on the video.

This rendition was so powerful it made me read the book!

E

[joecoolmccall]

nice :)

[49erfrank28]

and what a beautiful rendition by "Cry Cry Cry". One of the most beautiful songs i've heard about a very sad subject. Thanks for putting the effort in.

[Metro879]

Excellent song, and you did a great job of linking pictures to it. Really, very nice. Thanks for sharing.

Have a good day, and God bless.

[cagotahoe]

Thank you. :). It was really hard to sync it all up... but the end product made it all worth it!!