Don't get me wrong, I don't want to interfere with your faith in any way, you're doing a wonderful job and have a great ministry, what I challenge is the angle given to some theological doctrines. The traditional angle, which comes from medieval understanding, must be revisited because we have knowledge about energy, magnetism and quantum physics that can help us understand better the creation and God's plan. If we don't use our God given knowledge to base our faith, we will loose many souls. GB
@dejesusluisx >> I don't want to interfere with your faith in any way
Don't be ridiculous! You deny the doctrine of the Fall, Original Sin and (hence) the need for salvation. You want to change the doctrines given to us by God Himself. The presumptive arogance which calls doctrines believed for hundreds of years by millions of people "self-refuting" is ludicrous; if they were so self-refuting, they wouldn't be believed by the majority of Christians!
@dejesusluisx >> If we don't use our God given knowledge to base our faith, we will loose many souls.
But what you are doing is NOT based on knowledge - it is based on your personal subjective feelings and incomplete information. And what you are advocating (a denial of original sin, and hence the need for Christ) will lead to the loss of ALL souls; because it only by accepting original sin and our need for a savior we are saved.
@SaintMichaelsMedia "a denial of original sin, and hence the need for Christ" first, I'm not denying original sin, just the interpretation given. Christ is needed because mankind needed a path for salvation, He was a message, the incarnated verb, and a message is to be followed, to be lived.
@dejesusluisx Ah, Pelagianism - the idea we can be saved by our own effort. You characterize Christ as something we must do (a verb), something we must follow ... NOT someone who saves us as a result of His actions. You deny the role of Christ's actions, only speaking about ours. You are denying fundamental doctrines of Christianity, and I really question whether or not your beliefs can genuinely be called Christian. I don't think they can.
@dejesusluisx Is that why Saint Paul says he does things he should not, and does not do things he should? Those who are in a state of grace still have the urge to sin - and that is one of the things purgatory does; remove that concupisence from people and make them perfect for Heaven. Unless people are perfect when they die on this earth, they have to made perfect. And that perfection happens in purgatory.
@SaintMichaelsMedia You are correct, we do have the urge to sin even in grace, but if we do sin, we fall out if grace. So, if we confess and repent, we gain again our grace once more, and if we die in grace, we may go to heaven. Hell is the absence of God, is what you call purgatory. The reference to fire is what you feel, not what you see, because Hell is the eternal darkness.
The doctrine is self refuting and should be removed as dogma. God Bless.
@dejesusluisx Just an aside, the arogance of someone saying "this is self-refuting" when your comments show you clearly don't even UNDERSTAND what the doctrine teaches is very wearing. Please stop making such statements; they are patently false. If it were self-refuting, then it would not be believed by the majority of Christians and every single Christian (including the Fathers of the Church) before 1517 AD.
@dejesusluisx You admit we have the urge to sin even in grace, but then deflect away and start talking about ACTUAL sins. Purgatory is for the cleansing of the urge to sin (not sins) and for the temporal punishment for forgiven sins (NOT the forgiving of sins). When we confess, we are saved and regain grace - but still need purgatory to be made perfect. After purgatory, we go to Heaven. Your argument is based on false equivalence.
@SaintMichaelsMedia I'm afraid you are missing one important piece of the puzzle, when we die, we no longer have sinful urges. Our sins are humans just following our selfish animal instincts, those instincts are part of our material body, not our consciousness. Once we don't have a material body, the carnal urges are gone, and if we live in grace, we can go to heaven. Follow the logic and the truth will set you free. God Bless.
@dejesusluisx Ah, gnosticism :( Humans are a body-soul combination; our bodies are PART of us. Our sinful urges are NOT merely physical ones or from the body (what about intellectual pride?) Bear in mind the resurrection of the body - when we are given our bodies back, glorified. I have followed the logic - but I have based it on the truth of Christianity, not heresies of the first and second centuries as you have. The process by which our carnal urges are removed is purgatory, NOT a disconnect.
@dejesusluisx Your beliefs are based on a heresy called gnosticism - which holds humans are spirits trapped in bodies, rather than a fusion of body & soul. This belief is VERY common (& is the core of all Protestantism - a denial of the importance of the physical). It leads to all sorts of errors, such as the one you are in now (which is where you think we have "animal instincts" as a result of our bodies). God made our bodies & said they are "very good".
@dejesusluisx Christ took a human body - a real, genuine, human body. He had a real, human, carnal body yet did not need purification because He was perfect blows holes in your idea. Our tendency to sin is a result of original sin and concupisence, NOT the mere possession of a human body. If that was all it was, then all the dead would have no urge to sin (not having bodies) but that is clearly not the case; those in Hell rail and hate God (sinful behavior).
@SaintMichaelsMedia ""carnal body yet did not need purification because He was perfect"" Indeed true, but He didn't need purification because He wasn't driven by selfish animal instincts, He had God's consciousness in Him, so no purification needed. What we call original sin is precisely our sinful nature as a result of our selfish animal instincts that we needed during our evolutive process to survive, and now they interfere with our advancement to the next consciousness level as Christ wanted.
@dejesusluisx "What we call original sin is precisely our sinful nature as a result of our selfish animal instincts that we needed during our evolutive process to survive" - that is another heresy right there; the denial of the Fall. And all this "next consciousness level" garbage is New Age twaddle which has no place in genuine Christian thought.
I strongly advise you abandon your prideful attachment to your personal beliefs and accept the teaching of God. I will pray for you.
@claudius860 - I wouldn't be so sure. An apparition of the Virgin Mary told some folks that some people would suffer in purgatory "until the end of the world."
After watching this and reflecting on it, I've realized that I've used purgatory so many times as an excuse to avoid total devotion to christ, his teachings, and his commands. We are blessed that there is a purgatory, very true. Very, VERY true. But if this issue is as common as I think it is, it seems like it might be better to act as if purgatory wasn't an option sometimes, even though I know that I'm not the one earning my way into Heaven. God Bless.
@joe4jesus1989 We are made perfect through Christ IN PURGATORY - when you die, are you going to be perfect? I am certain you think you are going to Heaven, but if you died right now, would you be perfect? No - you would still have a tendency to sin and a desire to do evil. That is concupiscence. Purgatory is the method of how we are made perfect.
Although I notice you just laugh ("LOL") rather than take this seriously. So, why should I take you seriously?
@joe4jesus1989 Let's put it this way. Jesus died so that our sins will be forgiven. So you believe that right now you are not perfect right? And after you die, when you get to heaven you will be perfect, because of what Jesus did on the cross. Something happens in between the time we die, and the time we get to heaven, that makes us perfect and unsinful. That something is called purgatory. It's as simple as that.
. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be "SAVED"—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
I hope there is a purgatory because if thats true anyone who is unclean doesnt go to heaven without purgatory there is only one place and that is hell.
first the extra books are not part of the bible because JESUS never referred to them. They are not part of the canon. Second if we could make heaven our home through good works we would not need Jesus to die on the cross........
@biblelover777 You can't love the Bible that much as you are ignorant of it; there are MANY books of the Old Testament Jesus never refers to. Being refered to by Christ is NOT the reason for the books being there; they were chosen by the Church in the 1st to 4th centuries. Secondly, Catholics don't believe we earn Heaven through good works BUT we MUST do good works - the Bible says as much.
Biblelover; do you believe we are saved through faith alone?
@biblelover777 Let me rephrase. Jesus teachings and Gods teachings did not coincide with these other books. I was catholic for 10 years, which really doesn't mean anything. Most catholics don't know their bible. I agree that good works do not save us and we should do them. Romans 6 talks all about that. I do believe Catholics should learn more about the teachings of the catholic church and compare them to the bible.
@biblelover777 You didn't answer the question; although you do say "I agree that good works do not save". There are two problems with this; one, I didn't say it so you can't agree and two, good works DO save. Read James chapter 2 - right there is explicit teaching we are saved by good works. V 24.
So, you say most Catholics don't know the Bible. Perhaps true; but this one does. And you're called Biblelover and don't know it at all.
@biblelover777 We don't EARN Heaven as something we are deserving; but good works are meritorious and do save. The Bible is very clear on this - and if you've actually read the Deuterocanon (you have, right? I mean, when you say the 7 books don't coincide, you know what you are talking about? Can you name the books without looking the list up, for openers?) you'll find they DO jive with Christ's teachings.
Catholics aren't afraid of the Bible; the Church wrote it. Every Catholic should read it
@biblelover777 if quotation equals canonicity, then there are numerous books of the protocanonical Old Testament which would have to be excluded. This would include the Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Obadiah, Zephaniah, Judges, 1 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Lamentations and Nahum. Not one of these Old Testament books is ever quoted or alluded to by Christ or the Apostles in the New Testament.
then the corrupt kjv of the Bible came and removed 7 books and changed verses.
Purgatory was dreamed up to extract money from people for prayers for people in a place that does not exist and explains why the bible was banned from the public by the Catholic church for centuries and the extras added, so the truth would not be known and they could teach what they liked!
@mikeeboy1000 What a simply ignorant comment. Purgatory was not "dreamed up" - it was taught from apostolic times. It is FORBIDDEN to charge for indulgences, and trying to do so renders the indulgence null and void. The Church NEVER forbade people to access the Bible. And the "extras" were in there from the first copies of the Bible. The Protestants hacked the Bible up because they dislike the truth of Christ.
@mikeeboy1000 2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.
So are you saying that through true repenting forgiveness I am saved? I must imaging Hitler went to Hell, for both that he was not a follower of God & his inhuman actions on this Earth. But if before he died, he honestly repented for his wrong doings, felt God has touched his life & accepted Jesus as his savior he would then go to Heaven? But I, being a peaceful, moral, and overall 'good' person, am damned to hell because I do not follow? Wheres the justice in that.
@SytrusISurtys If a person shows contrition for their sins, rejects them and seeks forgiveness - then, yes, they are forgiven. If a person does NOT seek forgiveness, then they are not. You are spinning a disingenous situation - invoking Godwin's Law to make it seem as if you are so much better than Hitler. But, IF Hitler seeks forgiveness and you don't, then you aren't. God is merciful to those who ask for mercy - if you can't be bothered with that . . .
@SaintMichaelsMedia Im not saying im better, im saying that I am aware of my existence on this Earth & how it affects others. I dedicate my mind to peace, love & positivity. Sure I mess up, and I learn from my mistakes. We live in a time of deceit & destruction. Am I to blame for not being able to choose Christianity or Catholicism over Buddhism or Hinduism? shouldnt Heaven be based on the overall Moral value of your life rather than your particular Religion?
@SytrusISurtys Again, you are being deliberately disingenous - someone who seeks forgiveness vs someone who does NOT is what we are discussing here, not a nice guy vs Hitler. ONLY Catholicism has true moral value - everything else is either flawed or incomplete. "Be perfect" says Jesus, and ONLY by asking for His forgiveness can we actually be perfect.
Remember; your original argument has two people - one who who ask forgiveness & one who doesn't. Don't be surprised when the first is forgiven
@SaintMichaelsMedia I do pray for forgiveness. But am I praying to the Catholic God? maybe, maybe not. I am aware I am praying to a Divine Being. Why is this not enough? why must I conform to something just as imaginary as any other idol. If Jesus were the man you claim him to be, im sure he unlike you would understand the circumstances of the modern day World & understand my dilemma. He would see the goodness in me, and my sincerity would he not? Or is it "join the club, or go to hell."?
@SytrusISurtys That's not what you originally said - you're changing your position. The bottom line is this - God is God, and there is no other. You must conform to THE TRUTH - what YOU think doesn't matter. There IS an objective Truth in the universe, and God expects you to conform to it if you have the ability. Those who are utterly ignorant of Christianity MIGHT be saved by responding to what they do know, but those who have the ability are required to give God His due.
@SytrusISurtys Jesus Christ came to earth in order to bring salvation to Humanity. If people choose to reject that, then they make their own bed. I don't claim Jesus to be any sort of man except the man He was - which is someone who came to earth to teach the Truth - a Truth which you reject. There is no dilemma here; accept the Truth of the One True God in the way He has revealed Himself, or reject God. That is what Hell is - the natural consequence of rejecting God.
@SytrusISurtys You say you pray - but I don't think you do so openly or honestly; you call Jesus Christ "as imaginary as any other idol", imposing your prideful view that we cannot know God onto Him. You don't give any possibility to the idea Jesus might be the one, true revelation of God. You are beginning by rejecting God, and therefore everything you do actively rejects Him.
Finally, someone is preaching the truth, also the people choose not to believe in purgatory because the pain there is worse than anything here on earth. i'm asking everyone here please pray for the souls in purgatory, they need it more then anyone else, the pain in purgatory is unimaginable please pray the rosary for the souls in purgatory everyday, Blessed are those who are merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
@RIMBR We do not atone for sin - we pay the temporal punishment for sin. If you listen to the podcast for the full program (it is on the website linked in the description) it will explain it much better than I can in this small box.
@RIMBR Jesus died for all sins - His suffering was sufficient to pay all debts. Without the sacraments, however, we cannot avail ourselves of this great treasury of grace.
well shoot, no one is perfect. I agree we can't enter Heaven unrighteous, but Jesus paid the fine so that we could be righteous before God. If there is a purgatory, what it the point of Jesus Christ's death on the cross?
@SaintMichaelsMedia Pardon me, but that is worse. Think about it. Jesus was already punished for that sin. There is no need for 2 punishments for the same sin. That's saying what Jesus did was not enough. Also, the Bible says that "He has separated our sin from us as far as the east is from the west." We will have a robe of righteousness, not because of ourselves, but because of Christ.
@steffyb528 You need to watch (or listen to, there is a podcast of the whole show for free) the full show and read the resources to understand why that view is not only wrong, but simply not supported. There are always consequences for sinful behavior, even AFTER we are forgiven. If we steal and apologize, we still go to jail. Purgatory is that punishment - but it can (and is) expiated by indulgences in this life. What you have right now is an incomplete understanding of Catholic doctrine
@SaintMichaelsMedia How do I listen to it? I will when I get a chance. How do you answer the Scripture that I gave. and "Christ died once for all, the just for the unjust" I watch The Journey Home when I can stay awake long enough on Saturday nights and you know I could probably buy into the Eucharist being the body and blood of Jesus thing as I can see how you could interpret the Last Supper scriptures that way. It's the purgatory thing that keeps me away from the Catholic church.
@steffyb528 Go to the website listed in the description, and from there you can select "podcasts". As for the Scripture, yes - Christ died once, but that does NOT mean we are perfect when we enter Heaven. Christ's death redeems us, saves us, pays the price for us AND makes us perfect. That perfection is accomplished for most people in purgatory (who is perfect - without ANY inclination to sin - when they die? St. Paul says he does what he knows he shouldn't! We must be perfected to enter Heaven)
@JesusNameSoulja Alright, I have tried to be polite here - but this blank REFUSAL to read the resources in the description is just annoying. I've told you twice now. Three times is too much. Go away until you can learn manners. The Scriptures are RIGHT THERE! You are ignoring them.
@JesusNameSoulja Anyone can refer to a video, but I refered to various resources which DO mention the Bible. And although anyone can refer to resources, it takes a special kind of arrogance to ignore them and claim the Bible says no such thing when it, in fact, does.
Read the resources. Come back with a point-by-point refutation, please.
The fact that something is not mentioned in the Bible is not proof of non-existence. The Doctrine of the Trinity is not found in the Bible, and it is for this reason that the Jehovas Witnesses attempt to deny the trinity. In the same way, you are trying to deny the existence of Purgatory. But i'me afraid Purgatory won't ceace to exist just because you don't like it, or can't find it in your Bible.
Somebody tell me where did the catholic church find this purgatory place. If u believe in that foolishness. U need to come out of that false doctrine. The devil got y'all fooled.. much love
@JesusNameSoulja We found it in the teaching of Jesus Christ, who founded the Catholic Church. The teaching is very clear, as the resources linked to in the description of the video will show you.
we can become clean by repenting-that way we dont need a purgatory. 1 john 1:9-"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness" God forgives AND purifies us when we confess. if we are pure from all unrighteousness, there's no need for purgatory
@soccer21928 >> if we are pure from all unrighteousness
And what if we are not? That is the KEY issue. What if, for example, a Christian confesses a sin (such as lust) but continues to commit the sin (because, after all, he is only human). Virtually every Christian continues to sin - because we are flawed humans. Unless the person has no desire to sin (by which it means they never even think about it, and are never tempted) then they are NOT pure from all unrighteousness.
@SaintMichaelsMedia no purgatory. the point is that all we need to do is ask God to frogive us and he will. we dont have to go to a priest and do penance. verse 8 says "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us" if what you say is true, then EVERYONE would go to purgatory, even john the apostle, and he's a saint. just accept what the Bible teaches, and you can be assured of going straight to heaven when you die.
I have no idea why you use that quote; it proves my point more than it does yours. Your thesis requires we have no sin and no sinfulness when we die. It requires we are perfect when we die, which is not the case.
Only the perfect will enter Heaven. And when we die are not perfect. How are we made perfect? That process is called purgatory.
I find it funny a non-Catholic is telling me to accept what the Bible teaches when Protestants DON'T.
The problem with your understanding is that you think purgatory forgives sins - it does not. It purifies us and pays the temporal punishment for sins already forgiven. Before you continue to post here, it is imperative you understand what the doctrine is - I think you are ignorant of the Catholic belief, and so we are talking at cross-purporses.
Please take an hour to listen to the podcast and resources linked to in the description of this video.
@soccer21928 --Jesus said in St Johns Gospel "whos sins you forgive, they are forgiven; whos sins you do not forgive they are not forgiven"... Jesus gave his Apostles and all preist after them the authority to forgive sins in his name. And most people will go to prugatory because even though we are saved we still have a sinful nature and God says no unclean ting will enter heaven.
@QuantumUni There is plenty of evidence and discussion on this page, in the supporting documentation (linked from the description of your video) and in the history of the Church. In addition, the burden of proof is on YOU given the fact most Christians alive today and alive historially believed in this.
However; it is clear you are a person who does not listen to reason; what proof could be contained in a PM beyond that? Go away.
@Thunderhead889 Why don't the Jews believe in Purgatory since they Follow the Old Testament? NOTE: Most Jews do not accept this book in the Bible because it was not inspired by God and was written by Hellenistic Jews (who did their best to appease their Greek invaders).
@Cgullins Prior to about 100AD Jews DID believe in purgatory and DID accept those books as canonical (they were canonical from the time they were written until the Rabbis cut them out after the destruction of the Temple). The Rabbis cut out ALL the Scriptures the Christians were using (because they needed to deny Jesus). So, if you don't accept these books then you are following the lead of people who denied Christ!
I have seldom herd of a bigger twisting of scripture other than maybe the Muslims that claim Mohammed is mentioned in the BIBLE., to justify the existence of purgatory. If this guy is refering toI Corinthians 3:9-15 - We know that because of verse 15 - everyone at this judgment is saved. God will test our works by fire, and our reward will depend on how well our works stand up to that fire. WE ARE already SAVED. It is our deeds that are judged by fire.Paul contrasts precious stoned to wood
And that is EXACTLY what purgatory is - it is NOT a means of being saved; those are saved who are there; they are being prepared for Heaven.
Perhaps if you, you know, had some actual KNOWLEDGE about the thing you are talking about? It might help you not make silly mistakes like arguing against something we don't say.
@SaintMichaelsMedia So if we are already saved why do we need to suffer.?? Either the job is done or it isn't. To me it makes a mockery of the sacrifce our Lord made.
@MrMaxTruth Purgatory pays the temporal punishment for sins already forgiven; I suggest you listen to the podcast of this episode and read all the comments on this video (in which you will find instructions on how to find the podcast). It explains it much better than a 500 character box can.
@Fintinobrien Is that supposed to be an ironic attempt at humor? If so, it fails because the hypocrisy overcomes the irony ; "God doesn't like it when you speak for him"? Erm, what are you doing - except claiming to speak for Him, right there?
So, you claim to speak for God, and do so before an audience of YouTube people.
@SaintMichaelsMedia I'd like to know where Jesus Himself talked about purgatory? I'd like to think Jesus was able to make FULL atonement for sin. Purgatory gives me the idea that Christ suffered to only complete 90% of our cleansing. Please tell me when this idea started?
@cryinglion The idea of Purgatory was started by God when He made the universe. Jesus can make full atonement for sin - purgatory does NOT forgive sins. Perhaps you would like to LEARN what purgatory is before you talk about it? It sounds to me like you don't have the first idea what it is. Check out the resources in the description of this video.
@SaintMichaelsMedia Well then, I would like a scripture passage that says it exists. I don't want an arrogant attitude about it, just a a scripture passage. If the bible says in 1 John 1:9 that "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.", there should be no need for a purgatory. The blood of Christ is no ordinary blood. And if he cleanses us by it, then we are clean. So again, show me scripture that says about purgatory.
@cryinglion Show me a scripture passage which says "everything we need to know is in the Bible and if something is not in the Bible then it is not true, even though the Church, not the Bible, is the pilar and foundation of truth, and even though the Bible specifically says we are to listen to not JUST written stuff and even though the Bible was not written until after the beginning of Christianity."
@SaintMichaelsMedia You side-stepped the question. I asked you to show me scripture where it says we will go there. The church has it's basis on the WORD OF GOD and Jesus Christ. If church teaching does not reflect biblical doctrine, how can I know if the church is telling me the truth? I want evidence that Jesus Himself taught it. Otherwise, forget trying to convince me.
@cryinglion And you continue to assume something which is not true. You don't deny the fact the Bible does NOT talk about the Bible being the sole rule for Christians. You just pretend that is true - and it is not. It is NOT true the Bible is the sole rule for Christians.
The Church IS. I have evidence Jesus taught it; His Church teaches it.
YOU need to prove I have to provide Biblical evidence; you fail to do so. I see no reason to continue to talk to someone who avoids something so fundamental.
Let me state, ONCE AGAIN - the BIBLE says the Church is the pilar and foundation of the truth and the BIBLE does NOT support sola scriptura. So, tell me, why should I believe it?
@SaintMichaelsMedia Well lets see...the gospels were WRITTEN to spread the good news. The letters of Paul & Peter were WRITTEN to back up the gospels, to encourage believers, and to confront false teachings. They were written for the early church, and for us. To teach things that were not endorsed by Jesus Himself or the apostles shows that they cannot be a true church of Christ. Satanists call themselves a church too. Are you suggesting that they must be right? Bible above "tradition".
@cryinglion I wonder sometimes if sola scriptura Protestants are DELIBERATELY trying to sound idiotic. No, no-one (except perhaps you) are suggesting Satanists are right, or a church, or anything of the sort.
Yes, the Gospels were WRITTEN. It is HILARIOUS you think the epistles were written to "back up" the Gospels when the Gospels were written AFTER them.
And the fact things are written does NOT mean ONLY that which is written can be used.
I am, quite literally, done with you. You do not know the Bible, you refuse to engage with the FACT the Bible tells us to use things which are NOT written and NEVER tells us to ONLY use the Bible, and you display a complete ignorance of history.
Your privilege to display your ignorance here is revoked.
@SaintMichaelsMedia when you die you dont go to heaven or hell you are just dead asleep in the grave until the resurrection. That is what the bible tells us.
@SanderDolce What rubbish - Jesus Christ specifically talks about Heaven and Hell. I see no reason to allow you to continue to post here if you are going to lie.
Have you read the book Goodbye Good Men by Michael Rose? I wonder if you accept the premise put forward that there is an insurrection of sorts at SOME catholic seminaries against the teachings of the Majesterium.
We have discussed the thief elsewhere here. It is very simple - suffering on earth can mitigate suffering in purgatory. The thief participates in Christ's passion, suffering crucifixion and offering that up to Jesus as all he has. His earthly suffering is applied to mitigate purgatory.
Can I have confirmation from Scripture that you HAVE to have confirmation from Scripture? Can you prove your assertion that something has to be in the Bible to be true?
Because the Bible never says that, so you are ADDING to Scripture by this. You are, in fact, being hypocritically illogical.
Tell me - why does something have to be in the Bible to be true? Sola Scriptura is a lie - the Bible even says as much.
Also - where did we get the Bible? If you are saying that something has to be in the Bible to be true, it would be helpful to know where the Bible came from. How the books were chosen.
The short answer? The CATHOLIC CHURCH chose the books to go into the Bible. WE chose what goes in. WE wrote the book.
And the Church NEVER intended the Bible to be the pillar and foundation of the truth. The Church is the final authority, NOT the Bible.
The Bible makes a very clear statement saying that Jesus not only provided purification for our sins, but he has made us perfect forever. If we still must suffer temporal punishment and need purification the writer of Hebrews must have been incorrect.
"..... After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. (Hebrews 1:3)
"...because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." (Hebrews 10:14)
Re Hebrews 10:14 - those who are BEING MADE holy. That means there is a process.
The process of being made holy and perfect continues AFTER death in purgatory.
Again, a typical Protestant position - take one verse, stretch the interpretation, and ignore the MANY other verses and Tradition which speaks clearly to the issue.
Seriously people; how can you believe a religion what has only been around for 500 years, and which the majority of Christians still don't believe?
asking to find the word purgatory in the Bible is like asking to find the word TRINITY in the bible. does that also mean that the trinity does not exist?
so if its not in the bible then i have to just take your word for it. hmmmmm. in which case i have in one hand a bible which all agree comes from God and never changes and in the other a church teaching which is unvalidated by this book and the word of the teachings proponents. this situation does not give me much confidence. ill stick with what is in the God inspired never changing word you can have the rest because i have no way of knowing for sure its true.
>> a church teaching which is unvalidated by this book
A lie and a slander. Nothing in the Catholic religion is contrary to the Bible. Given the fact the Catholic Church wrote the Bible, that is hardly suprising.
>> what is in the God inspired never changing word
This is the "never changing" Bible the Protestants changed? THat Bible? The one you treated and still treat like a rag?
Haven't I made these points about 100 times before? Can't people be bothered to read the discussion?
badpanda84, church fathers (humans) can err, God and Jesus do not, and 'their' Word has stood the test of time, even when we've messed up. I'd take the Bible over any 'persons' sayings any day of the week.
But this is not the case of saying "throw out the Bible and use the Church Fathers!" This saying "use BOTH, because the Fathers EXPLAIN what the Bible means."
You lot don't mean "Let's use the Bible!" - you mean "Let's use my interpretation of the Bible, and not the Catholic one."
And why should I listen to you lot? Seriously? Just who are these Protestants anyway? What do they know?
@SaintMichaelsMedia "These Protestants" that you claim to know "Precious little" share in your belief that Jesus Christ is their Lord and Savior...thats an awfully condescending generalization of your brothers in Christ...
It is ACCURATE. They know LITTLE and what they do know is PRECIOUS. Surely the knowledge "Jesus is Lord" is precious, but a small part of the full knowledge of Christianity?
Explain to me how Protestants are so lacking in knowledge...and of course what you mention must include ALL Protestants as your making such a brash generalization.
Also if you truly do believe that Protestants know so little shouldn't your all of your strength and efforts be put towards helping them come to the truth rather than berating them with condescending generalizations?
ALL Protestants "protest" against the Church which is the ONLY means of salvation. It's the ONLY means of meeting Christ as He WANTS to be encountered
The Church was founded BY Christ so we could KNOW Christ. Protestants, by their very nature, PROTEST against the Church.
This isn't a condescending generalization, it's a logical fact. Protestants deny the Church which is the Body of Christ. Protestants deny Christ.
They need to be told this, accept it, admit they are wrong, & come home
There is a link in the description to many verses. But, of course, remember that something does NOT have to be in the Bible to be true. Sola Scriptura is a heresy and dangerous.
Oh, wow - theological errors, spelling mistakes AND logical flaws in three lines? Impressive!
Selling indulgences isn't in the Bible because the Catholic Church never allowed it. Last time I am saying this - seriously. Anyone else making a comment about selling indulgences will just get the comment deleted and their account blocked.
The Church does not allow for the selling of indulgences. If one bad man does it, it does not make it Church policy! Shall I judge all Protestants by Hagee?
Sola Scriptura is impossible - because we have to take SOMEONE's word for it. Why should I believe any Protestant when he disagrees with other Protestants? Popes have CONSITENTLY said the same thing for 2000 years.
And why should I trust myself? I am not as clever, holy, or learned as the Church.
As for condom use; EVERY SINGLE CHRISTIAN BEFORE 1930 AD said it was wrong.
EVERY
SINGLE
ONE
Your acceptance of contraception is unChristian, anti Biblical, opposed to the historical record, idiotic, and leads to abortion.
Condom use is wrong BECAUSE IT IS WRONG not because the Pope says so. The Pope says it is wrong because, guess what? IT IS WRONG, A MORAL EVIL, AND IT LEADS TO THE DESTRUCTION OF THE FAMILY!
>> they say it's a place of total darkness and where hope is forever lost.
That I could not say for certain - there was a lot of debate about what it was. But, as I say, it was never official teaching and was just a theory. Most people reject it now.
Limbo is a doctrinal hypothosis (basically, a guess or theory) which seeks to solve the problem of "What happens to unbaptized babies?" They have no personal sin, but are not baptized and thus cannot be normatively saved.
Limbo is a place where there is no torment, but where the full presence of God is not clear. It is distinct from Purgatory, which is a "waiting room" for Heaven.
Most theologians now reject Limbo - it is generally believed unbaptized babies get to Heaven.
I think it is important to mention that purgatory isn't just for venial sins but also for the punishment of forgiven mortal sins that haven't been atoned for in this life.
Anything anyone says on here that goes against the Catholic Church the St. Michaels Media Guys give you alll the big slap slap slap LOL, they are kick all you all's asses big time LOL.
Keep it up SaintMichaelsMedia. Great work, too much Catholic bashing in this world.
Why didn't Lazarus the beggar and the good thief nor Stephen go to purgatory? (these all death stories from, appropriately the doctor Luke?) It almost seems he (under inspiration) went out of his way to disprove Judas Maccabeus' declaration concerning the dead soldiers.
> Why didn't Lazarus the beggar and the good thief nor Stephen go to purgatory?
Because they suffered during their lives, & that is applied to purgatory. Those who suffer physically can, if they offer their suffering up, apply this to their purgation.
> It almost seems he (under inspiration) went out of his way to disprove Judas Maccabeus' declaration
Not at all & remember Maccabeus' work is ALSO inspired & God cannot contradict. The stories cited show Catholic doctrine to be correct.
According to you, purgatory is for venial sins. The dead soldiers in 2 Macc 12 were wearing donaries of the idols of Jamnia, for which sin they died. So such an act was only a venial sin in a Catholic view and not a mortal sin?
Purgatory was made up by the roman catholic church in order to make money. People would pay to guarentee their place in purgatory which is just insane!! And yet intelligent people actually believe this!!
The concept of purgatory did not originate with the Catholic church. It was a common belief of Jews, and since the first Jewish converts to Christianity came about, it stands to reason that this belief passed onto the Christian faith. I suggest you do some studying before making the comment you just did.
>> isnt the blood that jesus shed supposed to make you clean?
Yes, when do you think that happens? It clearly doesn't happen completely during our lives because we are STILL sinners even after we have accepted Jesus and been forgiven. Purgatory turns sinful earthly humans into the saints in Heaven. It does not forgive sins, but it does remove the desire to sin.
>> Since we are all not perfect does that mean we all go to Purgatory?
It is possible to gain indulgences and thereby avoid some or all of purgatory. It is also the case that suffering in this life can "stand in" for purgatory.
But, generally speaking, the vast majority of people go to Purgatory before Heaven.
"Even Protestants abiding in only SCRIPTURAL presentations?? "
Yes, because it doesn't matter if you believe something wrong and foolish; it is still true. So, no matter what they believe, Protestants who are destined for Heaven (if there are any) will most likely go to Purgatory first.
I have listened to a place like Purgatory, it is a sad and painful place. I pray for them, hopefully there is hope for them. In the Bible (unless I am mistaken) they stay in such a place until the final judgment. Hell is the same, they stay until the final judgment. Hopefully Jesus has mercy on them and they don't have to wait that long to be released.
>> In the Bible (unless I am mistaken) they stay in such a place until the final judgment.
It sounds like you may be being confused with Abrahams Bosom or sheol.
Purgatory is a temporary place - and there is MUCH hope in there! Because people will eventually be cleansed and go to Heaven. We can speed this process by praying for the dead in Purgatory to be released sooner - the Chaplet of Divine Mercy is excellent for this.
>> Hell is the same, they stay until the final judgment
Technically true - but that does not mean those in Hell are ever released to salvation. When there is a new Heaven and a new Earth, those in Hell will be given their bodies back and live eternity in torment for rejecting God and love.
So basically, Purgatory is inbetween Heaven and Hell? And you go there, apologize/ask for forgiveness and account for all your sins, and once you do that, you get into Heaven? Am I right?
Not really - Purgatory is NOT a place where sins are forgiven. NO sins are forgiven in purgatory. Sins are forgiven BEFORE death. Purgatory is a place where people are made perfect so that they can go to Heaven - but not a place where sins are forgiven.
You account for sins in this life - which is why it is VERY important to go to confession regularly.
Because they are fallen humans - we are not perfect, thanks to the Fall.
>> how are they perfected?
Through the power of Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross. That is what allows for the perfection of humanity in purgatory. It is a state or place by which we are made perfect.
Don't get me wrong, I don't want to interfere with your faith in any way, you're doing a wonderful job and have a great ministry, what I challenge is the angle given to some theological doctrines. The traditional angle, which comes from medieval understanding, must be revisited because we have knowledge about energy, magnetism and quantum physics that can help us understand better the creation and God's plan. If we don't use our God given knowledge to base our faith, we will loose many souls. GB
dejesusluisx 4 months ago
@dejesusluisx >> I don't want to interfere with your faith in any way
Don't be ridiculous! You deny the doctrine of the Fall, Original Sin and (hence) the need for salvation. You want to change the doctrines given to us by God Himself. The presumptive arogance which calls doctrines believed for hundreds of years by millions of people "self-refuting" is ludicrous; if they were so self-refuting, they wouldn't be believed by the majority of Christians!
SaintMichaelsMedia 4 months ago
@dejesusluisx >> If we don't use our God given knowledge to base our faith, we will loose many souls.
But what you are doing is NOT based on knowledge - it is based on your personal subjective feelings and incomplete information. And what you are advocating (a denial of original sin, and hence the need for Christ) will lead to the loss of ALL souls; because it only by accepting original sin and our need for a savior we are saved.
SaintMichaelsMedia 4 months ago
@SaintMichaelsMedia "a denial of original sin, and hence the need for Christ" first, I'm not denying original sin, just the interpretation given. Christ is needed because mankind needed a path for salvation, He was a message, the incarnated verb, and a message is to be followed, to be lived.
dejesusluisx 4 months ago
@dejesusluisx Ah, Pelagianism - the idea we can be saved by our own effort. You characterize Christ as something we must do (a verb), something we must follow ... NOT someone who saves us as a result of His actions. You deny the role of Christ's actions, only speaking about ours. You are denying fundamental doctrines of Christianity, and I really question whether or not your beliefs can genuinely be called Christian. I don't think they can.
SaintMichaelsMedia 4 months ago
If you live in grace, you are clean and pure. The doctrine is contradictory. Is a self refuting argument.
dejesusluisx 4 months ago
@dejesusluisx Is that why Saint Paul says he does things he should not, and does not do things he should? Those who are in a state of grace still have the urge to sin - and that is one of the things purgatory does; remove that concupisence from people and make them perfect for Heaven. Unless people are perfect when they die on this earth, they have to made perfect. And that perfection happens in purgatory.
SaintMichaelsMedia 4 months ago
@SaintMichaelsMedia You are correct, we do have the urge to sin even in grace, but if we do sin, we fall out if grace. So, if we confess and repent, we gain again our grace once more, and if we die in grace, we may go to heaven. Hell is the absence of God, is what you call purgatory. The reference to fire is what you feel, not what you see, because Hell is the eternal darkness.
The doctrine is self refuting and should be removed as dogma. God Bless.
dejesusluisx 4 months ago
@dejesusluisx Just an aside, the arogance of someone saying "this is self-refuting" when your comments show you clearly don't even UNDERSTAND what the doctrine teaches is very wearing. Please stop making such statements; they are patently false. If it were self-refuting, then it would not be believed by the majority of Christians and every single Christian (including the Fathers of the Church) before 1517 AD.
SaintMichaelsMedia 4 months ago
@dejesusluisx You admit we have the urge to sin even in grace, but then deflect away and start talking about ACTUAL sins. Purgatory is for the cleansing of the urge to sin (not sins) and for the temporal punishment for forgiven sins (NOT the forgiving of sins). When we confess, we are saved and regain grace - but still need purgatory to be made perfect. After purgatory, we go to Heaven. Your argument is based on false equivalence.
SaintMichaelsMedia 4 months ago
@SaintMichaelsMedia I'm afraid you are missing one important piece of the puzzle, when we die, we no longer have sinful urges. Our sins are humans just following our selfish animal instincts, those instincts are part of our material body, not our consciousness. Once we don't have a material body, the carnal urges are gone, and if we live in grace, we can go to heaven. Follow the logic and the truth will set you free. God Bless.
dejesusluisx 4 months ago
@dejesusluisx Ah, gnosticism :( Humans are a body-soul combination; our bodies are PART of us. Our sinful urges are NOT merely physical ones or from the body (what about intellectual pride?) Bear in mind the resurrection of the body - when we are given our bodies back, glorified. I have followed the logic - but I have based it on the truth of Christianity, not heresies of the first and second centuries as you have. The process by which our carnal urges are removed is purgatory, NOT a disconnect.
SaintMichaelsMedia 4 months ago
@dejesusluisx Your beliefs are based on a heresy called gnosticism - which holds humans are spirits trapped in bodies, rather than a fusion of body & soul. This belief is VERY common (& is the core of all Protestantism - a denial of the importance of the physical). It leads to all sorts of errors, such as the one you are in now (which is where you think we have "animal instincts" as a result of our bodies). God made our bodies & said they are "very good".
SaintMichaelsMedia 4 months ago
@dejesusluisx Christ took a human body - a real, genuine, human body. He had a real, human, carnal body yet did not need purification because He was perfect blows holes in your idea. Our tendency to sin is a result of original sin and concupisence, NOT the mere possession of a human body. If that was all it was, then all the dead would have no urge to sin (not having bodies) but that is clearly not the case; those in Hell rail and hate God (sinful behavior).
SaintMichaelsMedia 4 months ago
@SaintMichaelsMedia ""carnal body yet did not need purification because He was perfect"" Indeed true, but He didn't need purification because He wasn't driven by selfish animal instincts, He had God's consciousness in Him, so no purification needed. What we call original sin is precisely our sinful nature as a result of our selfish animal instincts that we needed during our evolutive process to survive, and now they interfere with our advancement to the next consciousness level as Christ wanted.
dejesusluisx 4 months ago
@dejesusluisx "What we call original sin is precisely our sinful nature as a result of our selfish animal instincts that we needed during our evolutive process to survive" - that is another heresy right there; the denial of the Fall. And all this "next consciousness level" garbage is New Age twaddle which has no place in genuine Christian thought.
I strongly advise you abandon your prideful attachment to your personal beliefs and accept the teaching of God. I will pray for you.
SaintMichaelsMedia 4 months ago
@claudius860 - I wouldn't be so sure. An apparition of the Virgin Mary told some folks that some people would suffer in purgatory "until the end of the world."
GlorifiedTruth 5 months ago
After watching this and reflecting on it, I've realized that I've used purgatory so many times as an excuse to avoid total devotion to christ, his teachings, and his commands. We are blessed that there is a purgatory, very true. Very, VERY true. But if this issue is as common as I think it is, it seems like it might be better to act as if purgatory wasn't an option sometimes, even though I know that I'm not the one earning my way into Heaven. God Bless.
ssjSephirothhiei 8 months ago
we are made perfect through Christ. so Christs death was not good enough for us to get to heaven?
our test is not here on earth only but....we get tested 2 times.....oh man. lol
joe4jesus1989 8 months ago
@joe4jesus1989 We are made perfect through Christ IN PURGATORY - when you die, are you going to be perfect? I am certain you think you are going to Heaven, but if you died right now, would you be perfect? No - you would still have a tendency to sin and a desire to do evil. That is concupiscence. Purgatory is the method of how we are made perfect.
Although I notice you just laugh ("LOL") rather than take this seriously. So, why should I take you seriously?
SaintMichaelsMedia 8 months ago
@joe4jesus1989 Let's put it this way. Jesus died so that our sins will be forgiven. So you believe that right now you are not perfect right? And after you die, when you get to heaven you will be perfect, because of what Jesus did on the cross. Something happens in between the time we die, and the time we get to heaven, that makes us perfect and unsinful. That something is called purgatory. It's as simple as that.
agentjs09 8 months ago
1 Corinthians 3
. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be "SAVED"—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
MrDIBBLY 9 months ago
I hope there is a purgatory because if thats true anyone who is unclean doesnt go to heaven without purgatory there is only one place and that is hell.
thegeezerdan 9 months ago
first the extra books are not part of the bible because JESUS never referred to them. They are not part of the canon. Second if we could make heaven our home through good works we would not need Jesus to die on the cross........
biblelover777 10 months ago
@biblelover777 You can't love the Bible that much as you are ignorant of it; there are MANY books of the Old Testament Jesus never refers to. Being refered to by Christ is NOT the reason for the books being there; they were chosen by the Church in the 1st to 4th centuries. Secondly, Catholics don't believe we earn Heaven through good works BUT we MUST do good works - the Bible says as much.
Biblelover; do you believe we are saved through faith alone?
SaintMichaelsMedia 10 months ago
@biblelover777 Let me rephrase. Jesus teachings and Gods teachings did not coincide with these other books. I was catholic for 10 years, which really doesn't mean anything. Most catholics don't know their bible. I agree that good works do not save us and we should do them. Romans 6 talks all about that. I do believe Catholics should learn more about the teachings of the catholic church and compare them to the bible.
biblelover777 10 months ago
@biblelover777 You didn't answer the question; although you do say "I agree that good works do not save". There are two problems with this; one, I didn't say it so you can't agree and two, good works DO save. Read James chapter 2 - right there is explicit teaching we are saved by good works. V 24.
So, you say most Catholics don't know the Bible. Perhaps true; but this one does. And you're called Biblelover and don't know it at all.
SaintMichaelsMedia 10 months ago
@biblelover777 We don't EARN Heaven as something we are deserving; but good works are meritorious and do save. The Bible is very clear on this - and if you've actually read the Deuterocanon (you have, right? I mean, when you say the 7 books don't coincide, you know what you are talking about? Can you name the books without looking the list up, for openers?) you'll find they DO jive with Christ's teachings.
Catholics aren't afraid of the Bible; the Church wrote it. Every Catholic should read it
SaintMichaelsMedia 10 months ago
@biblelover777 if quotation equals canonicity, then there are numerous books of the protocanonical Old Testament which would have to be excluded. This would include the Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Obadiah, Zephaniah, Judges, 1 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Lamentations and Nahum. Not one of these Old Testament books is ever quoted or alluded to by Christ or the Apostles in the New Testament.
then the corrupt kjv of the Bible came and removed 7 books and changed verses.
MysticalCity 9 months ago
Purgatory was dreamed up to extract money from people for prayers for people in a place that does not exist and explains why the bible was banned from the public by the Catholic church for centuries and the extras added, so the truth would not be known and they could teach what they liked!
mikeeboy1000 11 months ago
@mikeeboy1000 What a simply ignorant comment. Purgatory was not "dreamed up" - it was taught from apostolic times. It is FORBIDDEN to charge for indulgences, and trying to do so renders the indulgence null and void. The Church NEVER forbade people to access the Bible. And the "extras" were in there from the first copies of the Bible. The Protestants hacked the Bible up because they dislike the truth of Christ.
SaintMichaelsMedia 10 months ago
@mikeeboy1000 2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.
MysticalCity 9 months ago
So are you saying that through true repenting forgiveness I am saved? I must imaging Hitler went to Hell, for both that he was not a follower of God & his inhuman actions on this Earth. But if before he died, he honestly repented for his wrong doings, felt God has touched his life & accepted Jesus as his savior he would then go to Heaven? But I, being a peaceful, moral, and overall 'good' person, am damned to hell because I do not follow? Wheres the justice in that.
SytrusISurtys 11 months ago
@SytrusISurtys If a person shows contrition for their sins, rejects them and seeks forgiveness - then, yes, they are forgiven. If a person does NOT seek forgiveness, then they are not. You are spinning a disingenous situation - invoking Godwin's Law to make it seem as if you are so much better than Hitler. But, IF Hitler seeks forgiveness and you don't, then you aren't. God is merciful to those who ask for mercy - if you can't be bothered with that . . .
SaintMichaelsMedia 11 months ago
@SaintMichaelsMedia Im not saying im better, im saying that I am aware of my existence on this Earth & how it affects others. I dedicate my mind to peace, love & positivity. Sure I mess up, and I learn from my mistakes. We live in a time of deceit & destruction. Am I to blame for not being able to choose Christianity or Catholicism over Buddhism or Hinduism? shouldnt Heaven be based on the overall Moral value of your life rather than your particular Religion?
SytrusISurtys 11 months ago
@SytrusISurtys Again, you are being deliberately disingenous - someone who seeks forgiveness vs someone who does NOT is what we are discussing here, not a nice guy vs Hitler. ONLY Catholicism has true moral value - everything else is either flawed or incomplete. "Be perfect" says Jesus, and ONLY by asking for His forgiveness can we actually be perfect.
Remember; your original argument has two people - one who who ask forgiveness & one who doesn't. Don't be surprised when the first is forgiven
SaintMichaelsMedia 11 months ago
@SaintMichaelsMedia I do pray for forgiveness. But am I praying to the Catholic God? maybe, maybe not. I am aware I am praying to a Divine Being. Why is this not enough? why must I conform to something just as imaginary as any other idol. If Jesus were the man you claim him to be, im sure he unlike you would understand the circumstances of the modern day World & understand my dilemma. He would see the goodness in me, and my sincerity would he not? Or is it "join the club, or go to hell."?
SytrusISurtys 11 months ago
@SytrusISurtys That's not what you originally said - you're changing your position. The bottom line is this - God is God, and there is no other. You must conform to THE TRUTH - what YOU think doesn't matter. There IS an objective Truth in the universe, and God expects you to conform to it if you have the ability. Those who are utterly ignorant of Christianity MIGHT be saved by responding to what they do know, but those who have the ability are required to give God His due.
SaintMichaelsMedia 11 months ago
@SytrusISurtys Jesus Christ came to earth in order to bring salvation to Humanity. If people choose to reject that, then they make their own bed. I don't claim Jesus to be any sort of man except the man He was - which is someone who came to earth to teach the Truth - a Truth which you reject. There is no dilemma here; accept the Truth of the One True God in the way He has revealed Himself, or reject God. That is what Hell is - the natural consequence of rejecting God.
SaintMichaelsMedia 11 months ago
@SytrusISurtys You say you pray - but I don't think you do so openly or honestly; you call Jesus Christ "as imaginary as any other idol", imposing your prideful view that we cannot know God onto Him. You don't give any possibility to the idea Jesus might be the one, true revelation of God. You are beginning by rejecting God, and therefore everything you do actively rejects Him.
SaintMichaelsMedia 11 months ago
@SytrusISurtys
"shouldnt Heaven be based on the overall Moral value of your life rather than your particular Religion?"
Interesting question. If that is what you believe, why post it on a Catholic video?
"am I praying to the Catholic God? I am aware I am praying to a Divine Being."
How many Gods do you think there are and why?
"He (Jesus) would see the goodness in me, and my sincerity would he not?"
He would also see every sin you commit even the ones you are not aware.
MrChristianBeliever 10 months ago
Finally, someone is preaching the truth, also the people choose not to believe in purgatory because the pain there is worse than anything here on earth. i'm asking everyone here please pray for the souls in purgatory, they need it more then anyone else, the pain in purgatory is unimaginable please pray the rosary for the souls in purgatory everyday, Blessed are those who are merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
MysticalCity 11 months ago
For Protestants, 1 corinthians 3:15
YeshuaisYahweh1 1 year ago
@YeshuaisYahweh1 I hope they have it in their bibles... Maccabees is an important book and they don't have it.
ChrisDaron 11 months ago
thank you so much for these videos.. this is exactly what people need to see!!
do u have a book??
gio2000ish 1 year ago
@gio2000ish No, we just make full-length videos which you can get from our website (link in description)
SaintMichaelsMedia 1 year ago
@RIMBR We do not atone for sin - we pay the temporal punishment for sin. If you listen to the podcast for the full program (it is on the website linked in the description) it will explain it much better than I can in this small box.
SaintMichaelsMedia 1 year ago
@RIMBR Jesus died for all sins - His suffering was sufficient to pay all debts. Without the sacraments, however, we cannot avail ourselves of this great treasury of grace.
SaintMichaelsMedia 1 year ago
evryone sins, so does that mean everyone goes to purgatory? because nobody doesnt sin
bannanaization 1 year ago
@bannanaization Pretty much - although we can avail ourselves of indulgences to lessen the time spent there
SaintMichaelsMedia 1 year ago
well shoot, no one is perfect. I agree we can't enter Heaven unrighteous, but Jesus paid the fine so that we could be righteous before God. If there is a purgatory, what it the point of Jesus Christ's death on the cross?
steffyb528 1 year ago
@steffyb528 Jesus' death forgives sins, purgatory does NOT. It is for temporal punishment for sins already forgiven.
SaintMichaelsMedia 1 year ago
@SaintMichaelsMedia Pardon me, but that is worse. Think about it. Jesus was already punished for that sin. There is no need for 2 punishments for the same sin. That's saying what Jesus did was not enough. Also, the Bible says that "He has separated our sin from us as far as the east is from the west." We will have a robe of righteousness, not because of ourselves, but because of Christ.
steffyb528 1 year ago
@steffyb528 You need to watch (or listen to, there is a podcast of the whole show for free) the full show and read the resources to understand why that view is not only wrong, but simply not supported. There are always consequences for sinful behavior, even AFTER we are forgiven. If we steal and apologize, we still go to jail. Purgatory is that punishment - but it can (and is) expiated by indulgences in this life. What you have right now is an incomplete understanding of Catholic doctrine
SaintMichaelsMedia 1 year ago
@SaintMichaelsMedia How do I listen to it? I will when I get a chance. How do you answer the Scripture that I gave. and "Christ died once for all, the just for the unjust" I watch The Journey Home when I can stay awake long enough on Saturday nights and you know I could probably buy into the Eucharist being the body and blood of Jesus thing as I can see how you could interpret the Last Supper scriptures that way. It's the purgatory thing that keeps me away from the Catholic church.
steffyb528 1 year ago
@steffyb528 Go to the website listed in the description, and from there you can select "podcasts". As for the Scripture, yes - Christ died once, but that does NOT mean we are perfect when we enter Heaven. Christ's death redeems us, saves us, pays the price for us AND makes us perfect. That perfection is accomplished for most people in purgatory (who is perfect - without ANY inclination to sin - when they die? St. Paul says he does what he knows he shouldn't! We must be perfected to enter Heaven)
SaintMichaelsMedia 1 year ago
can someone appoint me the pergatory scripture...... In the BIBLE.. Please do... enlighten me.. Much love
JesusNameSoulja 1 year ago
@JesusNameSoulja Alright, I have tried to be polite here - but this blank REFUSAL to read the resources in the description is just annoying. I've told you twice now. Three times is too much. Go away until you can learn manners. The Scriptures are RIGHT THERE! You are ignoring them.
SaintMichaelsMedia 1 year ago
Anyone can refer to a video.. But that one and only HOLY BIBLE speaks of no such thing... With love
JesusNameSoulja 1 year ago
@JesusNameSoulja Anyone can refer to a video, but I refered to various resources which DO mention the Bible. And although anyone can refer to resources, it takes a special kind of arrogance to ignore them and claim the Bible says no such thing when it, in fact, does.
Read the resources. Come back with a point-by-point refutation, please.
SaintMichaelsMedia 1 year ago
@JesusNameSoulja
The fact that something is not mentioned in the Bible is not proof of non-existence. The Doctrine of the Trinity is not found in the Bible, and it is for this reason that the Jehovas Witnesses attempt to deny the trinity. In the same way, you are trying to deny the existence of Purgatory. But i'me afraid Purgatory won't ceace to exist just because you don't like it, or can't find it in your Bible.
Vitiello180 1 year ago
Somebody tell me where did the catholic church find this purgatory place. If u believe in that foolishness. U need to come out of that false doctrine. The devil got y'all fooled.. much love
JesusNameSoulja 1 year ago
@JesusNameSoulja We found it in the teaching of Jesus Christ, who founded the Catholic Church. The teaching is very clear, as the resources linked to in the description of the video will show you.
SaintMichaelsMedia 1 year ago
The Jews called purgatory, sheol. This is nothing new, even many mainstream protestants believe in this. It's only the neo-protestants who refuses.
Naturalhit 1 year ago
where in the bible is purgatory mentioned? i would like to read about it.
brandonkr 1 year ago
@brandonkr Read the comments for this video, and also the resources listed in the description!
SaintMichaelsMedia 1 year ago
Fascinating message.
HeatherOfOz 1 year ago
we can become clean by repenting-that way we dont need a purgatory. 1 john 1:9-"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness" God forgives AND purifies us when we confess. if we are pure from all unrighteousness, there's no need for purgatory
soccer21928 1 year ago
@soccer21928 >> if we are pure from all unrighteousness
And what if we are not? That is the KEY issue. What if, for example, a Christian confesses a sin (such as lust) but continues to commit the sin (because, after all, he is only human). Virtually every Christian continues to sin - because we are flawed humans. Unless the person has no desire to sin (by which it means they never even think about it, and are never tempted) then they are NOT pure from all unrighteousness.
Hence, purgatory
SaintMichaelsMedia 1 year ago
@SaintMichaelsMedia no purgatory. the point is that all we need to do is ask God to frogive us and he will. we dont have to go to a priest and do penance. verse 8 says "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us" if what you say is true, then EVERYONE would go to purgatory, even john the apostle, and he's a saint. just accept what the Bible teaches, and you can be assured of going straight to heaven when you die.
soccer21928 1 year ago
@soccer21928 Not everyone - but most people :)
I have no idea why you use that quote; it proves my point more than it does yours. Your thesis requires we have no sin and no sinfulness when we die. It requires we are perfect when we die, which is not the case.
Only the perfect will enter Heaven. And when we die are not perfect. How are we made perfect? That process is called purgatory.
I find it funny a non-Catholic is telling me to accept what the Bible teaches when Protestants DON'T.
SaintMichaelsMedia 1 year ago
The problem with your understanding is that you think purgatory forgives sins - it does not. It purifies us and pays the temporal punishment for sins already forgiven. Before you continue to post here, it is imperative you understand what the doctrine is - I think you are ignorant of the Catholic belief, and so we are talking at cross-purporses.
Please take an hour to listen to the podcast and resources linked to in the description of this video.
SaintMichaelsMedia 1 year ago
@soccer21928 --Jesus said in St Johns Gospel "whos sins you forgive, they are forgiven; whos sins you do not forgive they are not forgiven"... Jesus gave his Apostles and all preist after them the authority to forgive sins in his name. And most people will go to prugatory because even though we are saved we still have a sinful nature and God says no unclean ting will enter heaven.
Thunderhead889 1 year ago
Purgatory doesn't exist and I challenge any Catholic to send me a private message and show me otherwise.
QuantumUni 1 year ago
@QuantumUni There is plenty of evidence and discussion on this page, in the supporting documentation (linked from the description of your video) and in the history of the Church. In addition, the burden of proof is on YOU given the fact most Christians alive today and alive historially believed in this.
However; it is clear you are a person who does not listen to reason; what proof could be contained in a PM beyond that? Go away.
SaintMichaelsMedia 1 year ago
@QuantumUni --Purgatory is clearly described in 2 Maccabees.
Thunderhead889 1 year ago
@Thunderhead889 Why don't the Jews believe in Purgatory since they Follow the Old Testament? NOTE: Most Jews do not accept this book in the Bible because it was not inspired by God and was written by Hellenistic Jews (who did their best to appease their Greek invaders).
Cgullins 1 year ago
@Cgullins Prior to about 100AD Jews DID believe in purgatory and DID accept those books as canonical (they were canonical from the time they were written until the Rabbis cut them out after the destruction of the Temple). The Rabbis cut out ALL the Scriptures the Christians were using (because they needed to deny Jesus). So, if you don't accept these books then you are following the lead of people who denied Christ!
SaintMichaelsMedia 11 months ago
Either God's grace is sufficient, or it isn't.
BigBrousky 1 year ago
@BigBrousky God's grace IS sufficient - and it is sufficient to power purgatory, so that we can be cleansed and made perfect.
SaintMichaelsMedia 1 year ago
I have seldom herd of a bigger twisting of scripture other than maybe the Muslims that claim Mohammed is mentioned in the BIBLE., to justify the existence of purgatory. If this guy is refering toI Corinthians 3:9-15 - We know that because of verse 15 - everyone at this judgment is saved. God will test our works by fire, and our reward will depend on how well our works stand up to that fire. WE ARE already SAVED. It is our deeds that are judged by fire.Paul contrasts precious stoned to wood
MrMaxTruth 1 year ago
@MrMaxTruth >> WE ARE already SAVED
And that is EXACTLY what purgatory is - it is NOT a means of being saved; those are saved who are there; they are being prepared for Heaven.
Perhaps if you, you know, had some actual KNOWLEDGE about the thing you are talking about? It might help you not make silly mistakes like arguing against something we don't say.
SaintMichaelsMedia 1 year ago
@SaintMichaelsMedia So if we are already saved why do we need to suffer.?? Either the job is done or it isn't. To me it makes a mockery of the sacrifce our Lord made.
MrMaxTruth 1 year ago
@MrMaxTruth Purgatory pays the temporal punishment for sins already forgiven; I suggest you listen to the podcast of this episode and read all the comments on this video (in which you will find instructions on how to find the podcast). It explains it much better than a 500 character box can.
SaintMichaelsMedia 1 year ago
God doesn't like it when you claim to speak for him. Such a man as you, full of ego before an audiance will never get near the gates of heaven
Fintinobrien 1 year ago
@Fintinobrien Is that supposed to be an ironic attempt at humor? If so, it fails because the hypocrisy overcomes the irony ; "God doesn't like it when you speak for him"? Erm, what are you doing - except claiming to speak for Him, right there?
So, you claim to speak for God, and do so before an audience of YouTube people.
Hmm.
Care to try again?
SaintMichaelsMedia 1 year ago
@SaintMichaelsMedia I'd like to know where Jesus Himself talked about purgatory? I'd like to think Jesus was able to make FULL atonement for sin. Purgatory gives me the idea that Christ suffered to only complete 90% of our cleansing. Please tell me when this idea started?
cryinglion 1 year ago
@cryinglion The idea of Purgatory was started by God when He made the universe. Jesus can make full atonement for sin - purgatory does NOT forgive sins. Perhaps you would like to LEARN what purgatory is before you talk about it? It sounds to me like you don't have the first idea what it is. Check out the resources in the description of this video.
SaintMichaelsMedia 1 year ago
@SaintMichaelsMedia Well then, I would like a scripture passage that says it exists. I don't want an arrogant attitude about it, just a a scripture passage. If the bible says in 1 John 1:9 that "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.", there should be no need for a purgatory. The blood of Christ is no ordinary blood. And if he cleanses us by it, then we are clean. So again, show me scripture that says about purgatory.
cryinglion 1 year ago
@cryinglion Show me a scripture passage which says "everything we need to know is in the Bible and if something is not in the Bible then it is not true, even though the Church, not the Bible, is the pilar and foundation of truth, and even though the Bible specifically says we are to listen to not JUST written stuff and even though the Bible was not written until after the beginning of Christianity."
SaintMichaelsMedia 1 year ago
Show me that, then we can talk. Sola Scriptura is a lie. There are lots of things which are true which are not in the Bible.
SaintMichaelsMedia 1 year ago
@SaintMichaelsMedia You side-stepped the question. I asked you to show me scripture where it says we will go there. The church has it's basis on the WORD OF GOD and Jesus Christ. If church teaching does not reflect biblical doctrine, how can I know if the church is telling me the truth? I want evidence that Jesus Himself taught it. Otherwise, forget trying to convince me.
cryinglion 1 year ago
@cryinglion And you continue to assume something which is not true. You don't deny the fact the Bible does NOT talk about the Bible being the sole rule for Christians. You just pretend that is true - and it is not. It is NOT true the Bible is the sole rule for Christians.
The Church IS. I have evidence Jesus taught it; His Church teaches it.
SaintMichaelsMedia 1 year ago
YOU need to prove I have to provide Biblical evidence; you fail to do so. I see no reason to continue to talk to someone who avoids something so fundamental.
Let me state, ONCE AGAIN - the BIBLE says the Church is the pilar and foundation of the truth and the BIBLE does NOT support sola scriptura. So, tell me, why should I believe it?
SaintMichaelsMedia 1 year ago
@SaintMichaelsMedia Well lets see...the gospels were WRITTEN to spread the good news. The letters of Paul & Peter were WRITTEN to back up the gospels, to encourage believers, and to confront false teachings. They were written for the early church, and for us. To teach things that were not endorsed by Jesus Himself or the apostles shows that they cannot be a true church of Christ. Satanists call themselves a church too. Are you suggesting that they must be right? Bible above "tradition".
cryinglion 1 year ago
@cryinglion I wonder sometimes if sola scriptura Protestants are DELIBERATELY trying to sound idiotic. No, no-one (except perhaps you) are suggesting Satanists are right, or a church, or anything of the sort.
Yes, the Gospels were WRITTEN. It is HILARIOUS you think the epistles were written to "back up" the Gospels when the Gospels were written AFTER them.
And the fact things are written does NOT mean ONLY that which is written can be used.
SaintMichaelsMedia 1 year ago
I am, quite literally, done with you. You do not know the Bible, you refuse to engage with the FACT the Bible tells us to use things which are NOT written and NEVER tells us to ONLY use the Bible, and you display a complete ignorance of history.
Your privilege to display your ignorance here is revoked.
SaintMichaelsMedia 1 year ago
@SaintMichaelsMedia when you die you dont go to heaven or hell you are just dead asleep in the grave until the resurrection. That is what the bible tells us.
SanderDolce 1 year ago
@SanderDolce What rubbish - Jesus Christ specifically talks about Heaven and Hell. I see no reason to allow you to continue to post here if you are going to lie.
SaintMichaelsMedia 1 year ago
BLESSED BE THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH
grekito 2 years ago
Have you read the book Goodbye Good Men by Michael Rose? I wonder if you accept the premise put forward that there is an insurrection of sorts at SOME catholic seminaries against the teachings of the Majesterium.
jotyod 2 years ago
Our sister company RealCatholicTV has made videos advocating this very premise.
SaintMichaelsMedia 2 years ago
What happened to the thief on the cross that died with JESUS? JESUS said today you will be with me in paradise. (Luke 23:43)!
konadave29 2 years ago
We have discussed the thief elsewhere here. It is very simple - suffering on earth can mitigate suffering in purgatory. The thief participates in Christ's passion, suffering crucifixion and offering that up to Jesus as all he has. His earthly suffering is applied to mitigate purgatory.
SaintMichaelsMedia 2 years ago
I need confirmation from scripture on your assertions.
konadave29 2 years ago
Can I have confirmation from Scripture that you HAVE to have confirmation from Scripture? Can you prove your assertion that something has to be in the Bible to be true?
Because the Bible never says that, so you are ADDING to Scripture by this. You are, in fact, being hypocritically illogical.
Tell me - why does something have to be in the Bible to be true? Sola Scriptura is a lie - the Bible even says as much.
I would not stick to it if I were you.
SaintMichaelsMedia 2 years ago
Also - where did we get the Bible? If you are saying that something has to be in the Bible to be true, it would be helpful to know where the Bible came from. How the books were chosen.
The short answer? The CATHOLIC CHURCH chose the books to go into the Bible. WE chose what goes in. WE wrote the book.
And the Church NEVER intended the Bible to be the pillar and foundation of the truth. The Church is the final authority, NOT the Bible.
SaintMichaelsMedia 2 years ago
St. Paul also says that a day in human minds is like a thousand years in Gods mind
cdogtherapper7 2 years ago
The Bible makes a very clear statement saying that Jesus not only provided purification for our sins, but he has made us perfect forever. If we still must suffer temporal punishment and need purification the writer of Hebrews must have been incorrect.
"..... After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. (Hebrews 1:3)
"...because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." (Hebrews 10:14)
FiberMania 2 years ago
Re Hebrews 10:14 - those who are BEING MADE holy. That means there is a process.
The process of being made holy and perfect continues AFTER death in purgatory.
Again, a typical Protestant position - take one verse, stretch the interpretation, and ignore the MANY other verses and Tradition which speaks clearly to the issue.
Seriously people; how can you believe a religion what has only been around for 500 years, and which the majority of Christians still don't believe?
SaintMichaelsMedia 2 years ago
asking to find the word purgatory in the Bible is like asking to find the word TRINITY in the bible. does that also mean that the trinity does not exist?
uhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm NO.
purgatory is completely real.
sola scriptura = no no
aea1016 2 years ago
so if its not in the bible then i have to just take your word for it. hmmmmm. in which case i have in one hand a bible which all agree comes from God and never changes and in the other a church teaching which is unvalidated by this book and the word of the teachings proponents. this situation does not give me much confidence. ill stick with what is in the God inspired never changing word you can have the rest because i have no way of knowing for sure its true.
gthumb123 2 years ago
>> a church teaching which is unvalidated by this book
A lie and a slander. Nothing in the Catholic religion is contrary to the Bible. Given the fact the Catholic Church wrote the Bible, that is hardly suprising.
>> what is in the God inspired never changing word
This is the "never changing" Bible the Protestants changed? THat Bible? The one you treated and still treat like a rag?
Haven't I made these points about 100 times before? Can't people be bothered to read the discussion?
SaintMichaelsMedia 2 years ago
>> if its not in the bible then i have to just take your word for it
Not at all - take the words of the Church Fathers who were taught by the Apostles and were the people who assembled the Bible.
You say you know the Bible is the word of God - how do you know this? How do you know it is inspired without the Church telling you?
SaintMichaelsMedia 2 years ago
Right so we just have to take the words of the Church Fathers instead of having any written proof.
badpanda84 2 years ago
You reveal your ignorance with this statement. The Church Fathers wrote stuff down. That is why we know what they say.
They were the people who DECIDED what went in the Bible. Catholic Bishops and Popes etc.
SaintMichaelsMedia 2 years ago
badpanda84, church fathers (humans) can err, God and Jesus do not, and 'their' Word has stood the test of time, even when we've messed up. I'd take the Bible over any 'persons' sayings any day of the week.
jebeja 2 years ago
But this is not the case of saying "throw out the Bible and use the Church Fathers!" This saying "use BOTH, because the Fathers EXPLAIN what the Bible means."
You lot don't mean "Let's use the Bible!" - you mean "Let's use my interpretation of the Bible, and not the Catholic one."
And why should I listen to you lot? Seriously? Just who are these Protestants anyway? What do they know?
Answer : Precious little.
SaintMichaelsMedia 2 years ago
@SaintMichaelsMedia "These Protestants" that you claim to know "Precious little" share in your belief that Jesus Christ is their Lord and Savior...thats an awfully condescending generalization of your brothers in Christ...
swa5297 2 years ago
It is ACCURATE. They know LITTLE and what they do know is PRECIOUS. Surely the knowledge "Jesus is Lord" is precious, but a small part of the full knowledge of Christianity?
SaintMichaelsMedia 2 years ago
Explain to me how Protestants are so lacking in knowledge...and of course what you mention must include ALL Protestants as your making such a brash generalization.
Also if you truly do believe that Protestants know so little shouldn't your all of your strength and efforts be put towards helping them come to the truth rather than berating them with condescending generalizations?
swa5297 2 years ago
ALL Protestants "protest" against the Church which is the ONLY means of salvation. It's the ONLY means of meeting Christ as He WANTS to be encountered
The Church was founded BY Christ so we could KNOW Christ. Protestants, by their very nature, PROTEST against the Church.
This isn't a condescending generalization, it's a logical fact. Protestants deny the Church which is the Body of Christ. Protestants deny Christ.
They need to be told this, accept it, admit they are wrong, & come home
SaintMichaelsMedia 2 years ago
i would like to know were in the bible dose it teach there is a Purgatory, i want to see the passage for that, can u plz show me thanx
MEEDDIE4 2 years ago
There is a link in the description to many verses. But, of course, remember that something does NOT have to be in the Bible to be true. Sola Scriptura is a heresy and dangerous.
SaintMichaelsMedia 2 years ago
You mean like how selling indulgences isnt in the bible.
"Sola Scriptura is a heresy and dangerous. "
But at least its better than taking the popes word for it.
IF the Pope says condom use is wrong dose that make it true
badpanda84 2 years ago
Oh, wow - theological errors, spelling mistakes AND logical flaws in three lines? Impressive!
Selling indulgences isn't in the Bible because the Catholic Church never allowed it. Last time I am saying this - seriously. Anyone else making a comment about selling indulgences will just get the comment deleted and their account blocked.
The Church does not allow for the selling of indulgences. If one bad man does it, it does not make it Church policy! Shall I judge all Protestants by Hagee?
SaintMichaelsMedia 2 years ago
Sola Scriptura is impossible - because we have to take SOMEONE's word for it. Why should I believe any Protestant when he disagrees with other Protestants? Popes have CONSITENTLY said the same thing for 2000 years.
And why should I trust myself? I am not as clever, holy, or learned as the Church.
SaintMichaelsMedia 2 years ago
As for condom use; EVERY SINGLE CHRISTIAN BEFORE 1930 AD said it was wrong.
EVERY
SINGLE
ONE
Your acceptance of contraception is unChristian, anti Biblical, opposed to the historical record, idiotic, and leads to abortion.
Condom use is wrong BECAUSE IT IS WRONG not because the Pope says so. The Pope says it is wrong because, guess what? IT IS WRONG, A MORAL EVIL, AND IT LEADS TO THE DESTRUCTION OF THE FAMILY!
Also, that has nothing to do with purgatory :)
SaintMichaelsMedia 2 years ago
Catholic Church = Bride of the Lamb :)
DavidVelezPerez 2 years ago
>> they say it's a place of total darkness and where hope is forever lost.
That I could not say for certain - there was a lot of debate about what it was. But, as I say, it was never official teaching and was just a theory. Most people reject it now.
SaintMichaelsMedia 2 years ago
Limbo is a doctrinal hypothosis (basically, a guess or theory) which seeks to solve the problem of "What happens to unbaptized babies?" They have no personal sin, but are not baptized and thus cannot be normatively saved.
Limbo is a place where there is no torment, but where the full presence of God is not clear. It is distinct from Purgatory, which is a "waiting room" for Heaven.
Most theologians now reject Limbo - it is generally believed unbaptized babies get to Heaven.
SaintMichaelsMedia 2 years ago
I think it is important to mention that purgatory isn't just for venial sins but also for the punishment of forgiven mortal sins that haven't been atoned for in this life.
billinmaryland 2 years ago
Cool St Michaels
trgijbitrptoiti 2 years ago
Anything anyone says on here that goes against the Catholic Church the St. Michaels Media Guys give you alll the big slap slap slap LOL, they are kick all you all's asses big time LOL.
Keep it up SaintMichaelsMedia. Great work, too much Catholic bashing in this world.
trgijbitrptoiti 2 years ago
"Kick asses" is perhaps not how we would like it described; but thank you for the support :)
SaintMichaelsMedia 2 years ago
Why didn't Lazarus the beggar and the good thief nor Stephen go to purgatory? (these all death stories from, appropriately the doctor Luke?) It almost seems he (under inspiration) went out of his way to disprove Judas Maccabeus' declaration concerning the dead soldiers.
Jere616 2 years ago
> Why didn't Lazarus the beggar and the good thief nor Stephen go to purgatory?
Because they suffered during their lives, & that is applied to purgatory. Those who suffer physically can, if they offer their suffering up, apply this to their purgation.
> It almost seems he (under inspiration) went out of his way to disprove Judas Maccabeus' declaration
Not at all & remember Maccabeus' work is ALSO inspired & God cannot contradict. The stories cited show Catholic doctrine to be correct.
SaintMichaelsMedia 2 years ago
According to you, purgatory is for venial sins. The dead soldiers in 2 Macc 12 were wearing donaries of the idols of Jamnia, for which sin they died. So such an act was only a venial sin in a Catholic view and not a mortal sin?
Jere616 2 years ago
>> According to you
Not at all - don't put words in my mouth. Purgatory does NOT forgive sins - it expiates the temporal punishment for sins ALREADY forgiven.
So, the soldiers would only benefit if they had sought forgiveness prior to death.
SaintMichaelsMedia 2 years ago
Purgatory was made up by the roman catholic church in order to make money. People would pay to guarentee their place in purgatory which is just insane!! And yet intelligent people actually believe this!!
kopite998 2 years ago
Yet another arrogant, foolish Protestant who can't even be bothered to read the resources ATTACHED TO THE VIDEO HE JUST WATCHED!
>> People would pay to guarentee their place in purgatory
AND he can't even get the slander right! Sheesh, I expect more from people. The quality of anti-Catholicism is really going downhill.
We didn't make it up - the Jews believed in it. It's in the Bible (that would be the Bible which WE wrote and which YOU lot cut to shreds!)
SaintMichaelsMedia 2 years ago
The concept of purgatory did not originate with the Catholic church. It was a common belief of Jews, and since the first Jewish converts to Christianity came about, it stands to reason that this belief passed onto the Christian faith. I suggest you do some studying before making the comment you just did.
HeartofTopaz 2 years ago
Amen
Marilyn5561 2 years ago
isnt the blood that jesus shed supposed to make you clean?
DocterX742 2 years ago
>> isnt the blood that jesus shed supposed to make you clean?
Yes, when do you think that happens? It clearly doesn't happen completely during our lives because we are STILL sinners even after we have accepted Jesus and been forgiven. Purgatory turns sinful earthly humans into the saints in Heaven. It does not forgive sins, but it does remove the desire to sin.
SaintMichaelsMedia 2 years ago
Since we are all not perfect does that mean we all go to Purgatory?
coolkid8900 2 years ago
>> Since we are all not perfect does that mean we all go to Purgatory?
It is possible to gain indulgences and thereby avoid some or all of purgatory. It is also the case that suffering in this life can "stand in" for purgatory.
But, generally speaking, the vast majority of people go to Purgatory before Heaven.
SaintMichaelsMedia 2 years ago
"the vast majority of people go to Purgatory before Heaven"
Even Protestants abiding in only SCRIPTURAL presentations??
jkw733 2 years ago
"Even Protestants abiding in only SCRIPTURAL presentations?? "
Yes, because it doesn't matter if you believe something wrong and foolish; it is still true. So, no matter what they believe, Protestants who are destined for Heaven (if there are any) will most likely go to Purgatory first.
SaintMichaelsMedia 2 years ago
I have listened to a place like Purgatory, it is a sad and painful place. I pray for them, hopefully there is hope for them. In the Bible (unless I am mistaken) they stay in such a place until the final judgment. Hell is the same, they stay until the final judgment. Hopefully Jesus has mercy on them and they don't have to wait that long to be released.
C4nUH34rM3G0d 2 years ago
>> In the Bible (unless I am mistaken) they stay in such a place until the final judgment.
It sounds like you may be being confused with Abrahams Bosom or sheol.
Purgatory is a temporary place - and there is MUCH hope in there! Because people will eventually be cleansed and go to Heaven. We can speed this process by praying for the dead in Purgatory to be released sooner - the Chaplet of Divine Mercy is excellent for this.
SaintMichaelsMedia 2 years ago
>> Hell is the same, they stay until the final judgment
Technically true - but that does not mean those in Hell are ever released to salvation. When there is a new Heaven and a new Earth, those in Hell will be given their bodies back and live eternity in torment for rejecting God and love.
SaintMichaelsMedia 2 years ago
purgatory is real and the people suffer the same as those in hell the differance is purgatory is temperally
democratsruleusa 3 years ago
purgatory is real and is apart of hell or in a seperate place above or beside hell
democratsruleusa 3 years ago
i don't believe in purgatory!
hahadillonsface66 3 years ago
>> i don't believe in purgatory!
Then you are wrong!
SaintMichaelsMedia 3 years ago
So basically, Purgatory is inbetween Heaven and Hell? And you go there, apologize/ask for forgiveness and account for all your sins, and once you do that, you get into Heaven? Am I right?
ColeNorCal 3 years ago
>> Am I right?
Not really - Purgatory is NOT a place where sins are forgiven. NO sins are forgiven in purgatory. Sins are forgiven BEFORE death. Purgatory is a place where people are made perfect so that they can go to Heaven - but not a place where sins are forgiven.
You account for sins in this life - which is why it is VERY important to go to confession regularly.
SaintMichaelsMedia 3 years ago
what makes a person in purgatory not perfect? and how are they perfected?
phpome8 3 years ago
>> what makes a person in purgatory not perfect?
Because they are fallen humans - we are not perfect, thanks to the Fall.
>> how are they perfected?
Through the power of Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross. That is what allows for the perfection of humanity in purgatory. It is a state or place by which we are made perfect.
SaintMichaelsMedia 3 years ago
In case I'm not truly saved, I do sure as hell hope there's a purgatory...
watariryusaki 2 years ago
Purgatory is real.
clubsoda69 3 years ago