THE MUSIC OF ANCIENT GREECE!

[nr900]

Wow thats a great instrument. And a very interesting mode.

[SUNIL007G]

nice

[TimisMcl0vin]

I'm currently attempting to transcribe this for classical guitar.

[TimisMcl0vin]

This is truly amazing. Do you know if there are any transcriptions of this and where I could get it?

[Klezfiddle1]

Those medieval guys REALLY made life complicated when they re-named all the musical modes with the wrong names!According to Wikipedia,Greek "Hypophrygian" is a scale from A-A; the same as the medieval "Aeolian" mode...this piece is certainly in a mode which to me, sounds more like a diatonic major scale.

[rakkav]

The mode of the tune is Gr. Hypophrygian = G-G, which is a "major mode" (because the interval from tonic-3rd degree is major). Sorry, but you misread Wikipedia! :) See its article "Hypophrygian mode". And keep playing - you're getting better with this lyre, limited as we both know it is, all the time!

[Klezfiddle1]

At last - I understand! I have updated this in the "about this video" details. I am fascinated by the similarity between the ancient Greek Dorian mode(EFGABCDE),and the Jewish "Ahava Raba" mode - the ONLY difference, is that the 3rd is sharpened in the Jewish scale: EFG#ABCDE.Possibly this is evidence of some ancient exchange of musical ideas??

[rakkav]

The "Sounds from the Past" conference in Jerusalem in January was all about such exchanges. Ancient Mesopotamia influenced everybody in the area and vice versa.

Once it was discovered that the "mode of E" was the ideal starting point for tuning modes, it was no great leap to create "mixed modes" where one or more degrees were augmented to form chromatic intervals. EFG#ABCDE, EF#GABCD#E, EF#GA#BCD#E, EF#G#ABCD#E - these are among the most common, in and out of SHV's "biblical chant".

[Klezfiddle1]

Why, of all the other possible starting notes, is E in particular, the ideal starting point for tuning modes?

[rakkav]

You HAD to ask! :) Take a look at Dr. Anne Kilmer's table of Babylonian tuning cycles on my Web page, "Sacred Music in Antiquity" for a clue. To create ANY OTHER MODE possible in diatonic-chromatic tonality, one need only raise one or more of the degrees in the E-E' mode by a half step, through a cycle or otherwise. Starting with C-C' would require raising and/or lowering some strings eventually, as would starting with other modes.

[rakkav]

Very nice job! *****

But the melody is not revolving around a "center of attraction" or tonic that suggests the "mode of B". It is rather the "mode of G" predominantly. Otherwise, you'd have chords dominated by the tritone rather than by the perfect fifth. You're "picking" on the effective tonic. :)

[Klezfiddle1]

Thanks for the clarification! Would this piece therefore be in the ancient Greek "Lydian" mode,(the regular diatonic major scale)? Is the "Ionic" mode the SAME as this - or is this the MEDIEVAL name for the diatonic major scale?

[rakkav]

No, this is not Greek Lydian (the "major" scale, the Church Ionian). This is Greek Hypophrygian (the Church Mixolydian).

Don't feel bad - I too still have to look these modal names up every time! :) You could cut and paste paragraphs from Wikipedia's "Musical mode" and then print out the two lists.

[Klezfiddle1]

Re;"Church Ionian"(C-C) and "Aeolian"(A-A) modes - are these original ancient Greek modes, or are they yet more Medieval misnamed modes, with Greek names attached to them...just to confuse the hell out of us all, 1000 or so years later?!? ;o)

[rakkav]

"The two pitch forms of the perfect system were finally dovetailed to form a dense double series of thirteen, or even fifteen, keys in chromatic sequence. The names of the keys were either duplicated and, to avoid confusion, distinguished by the epithets 'lower'...for the E scales and 'higher'...for the F scales, or else kept apart by reviving obsolete names, Iastian (Ionian) and Aeolian..." (Sachs, p. 233).

[rakkav]

Since the original Greek Perfect System ended up being even more complex than Wikipedia etc. let on, it's not surprising that the medieval sages got the names confused, eventually adding Ionian and Aeolian as names when "major-minor [C-C / A-A] tonality" began developing in the Middle Ages.

[rakkav]

In the eventual, complex Perfect System, High Lydian or Lydian was F major, Low Lydian or Aeolian was E major. High Phrygian or Phryigian = F minor w/D natural, Low Phrygian or Iastian (Ionian) = E minor w/C sharp. All these were descending scales (Sachs, THE RISE OF MUSIC IN THE ANCIENT WORLD: EAST AND WEST, p. 233, table). None were the same as their "medieval" counterparts!

[Klezfiddle1]

Really interesting! What ancient musical documents was all the information we have on the ancient modes actually written in? Also, what ancient manuscript do we have, which explains the alphabetic system of ancient Greek musical notation?

[Klezfiddle1]

On the theme of the alphabetic system of ancient greek musical notation, am I right in thinking there were 2 such systems, one for vocal, the other for instrumental music?How was rhythm notated in the instrumental alphabetical notation, when it obviously could not be infered from the syllables of the text of a song, as in the vocal alphabetical musical notation?

[rakkav]

On the ancient documents, it's best to look up references such as Sachs et al.; no way could I summarize the sources here, even if I knew more than a few! On notation, that's the problem: there WERE no rhythmic signs in either of the 2 notations. Rhythm must be inferred from melody vis-a-vis a text or else the standard Greek metrical feet; and sometimes it's easier to do this than at other times.

[Klezfiddle1]

Thanks so much for revealing the mystery of all these ancient modes - it has confused me for years!I'm still confused, though - I thought the Church Mixolydian was a diatonic scale whith a flattened 7th - this piece has a major 7th. What ARE the exact notes of this "Greek Hypophygian" mode again?

[rakkav]

The mode you play in the beginning (Gk. Mixolydian) is not the mode of the tune itself (Gk. Hypophrygian)! That's why you're confused. THE TUNE SHIFTS THE TONIC, so that the 7th relative to it is minor, not major. The starting point of a tuning cycle and the tonic of a mode are not always one and the same. But the opening mode has a minor 7th too (listen carefully). Gk. Hypophrygian = G-G; Gk. Mixolydian, B-B.