this was a waste of my time!!! i always understood dropping a slide with ammo in the gun was the danger.... so whats the fucking point here with no ammo in the gun.....
Hey deadeye, props to you for doin that! Not so much to the gun, as I'm with you on the slide drops, but I saw your palm starting to get raw near the end there!
My opinion is this... And like i said OPINION.... It may hurt it it may not but unless u haveE monedy just to throw around and buy new whenever u want why take tha risk it prolly wont hurt ur gun but like me most people dont have the money to replace parts or git a new gun whenever so why not just take tha extra precautions and not have to worry about it in the first place?
@1988sureshot Thank, plz allow me to observe about your opinion which is summarized in that since we don't know if damage will occur and we don't have the money to fix or replace if damage does occur, then we should avoid. If these were the only factors then you might just me correct. However, these aren't the only factors.
Empty chamber slide drops mimick action of chambering just with more energy. However the chambering is followed by an explosion producing more energy than the slide drop. These actions cause "damage" known as wear. But, people are selective about what damage they worry about. Which is what you are doing. You are saying- to avoid possible repair from slide drops I won't do it, but I will shoot and deal with having to make the repairs shooting the gun WILL eventually necessitate.
The question which puts value to your position is one of how many chambers = 1 slide drop. It's the same action, remember. So if we shoot, we create the same wear, the same damage. No one knows, because this is the realm of big egos and big attitude and who can insult the other person the best and therefor be the winner of the argument. (not you, sir, you're not doing this) Is a slide drop = 10 chamberings? 100? 500? 1000? 10, 000? If shot that gun 70,000 times...
If 1 slide drop = 100 chamberings, then you observed the equivilent of 50,000 chamberings which is still less than the 70,000 chamberings, and is the equivilent of 120,000 chamberings and yet it's still fine. At the end of this all I come to this conclusion- people can't prove damage (v. wear) occurs, they can't identify how many slide drops are REQUIRED to damage the gun, yet they still sissy over a slide drop...
The claims of damaging a sear or hammer hooks on a 1911 make know sense. How many of the folks that buy into this crap actually know how the gun works? Just watched a vid by armory channel trying to explain why you should not decock a 1911. All I can say is fail.
maybe the reason the manufacturers tell us not to do that is due to litigation crazy people? Obviously, the gun companies can't prove one dropped the slide on an empty chamber a ton of times ... so on a warranty they won't want to replace a wrecked weapon system. Thanks for putting your .45 through the paces so I didn't have to.
@YoungBeastly Yes sir, my though was, "supposedly." I know that sounds snarky and I don't mean it that way. Unless we can account for a lot of variables all we have is a gun which broke and a theory as to why. We can't say why it happened as the gun was given to what? Thousands of people who shot 100s of thousands of rounds through it and ultimately it broke? Some people dropped the slide on an empty chamber, but on an order of what? One MT drop to 7 or 8 live feeds? Which is to blame?
@YoungBeastly We agree, you raise a valid point- a slide picking up a round wears, but supposedly less so that when a slide drops on an mt chamber. But to what degree? 10-1 ratio? 100-1? Or is it 2-1, 1.5-1 or even 1.00005 - 1? Was 500 slide drops on mt = 5000, 50,000, or 500,000 regular loadings? OR did I reduce weaponlife by only 2 shots? I don't know. Neither do all the E-experts. They are just repeating the unsubstantiated gobbledy-gook they head from someone else.
@DeadeyeSteve The logical following thought- since all guns wear, all guns have a maintenance cycle and service life. All parts wear. We replace the springs sooner than all other parts; replace at 5k rnds. @ 30k inspect for cracks in the slide, replace extractors, and check the barrel for accuracy/velocity. We can wear out the barrel and they are one of the hardest parts of the 1911 but the constant running of bullets across those lands wears them out.
@DeadeyeSteve Bob Londrigan of Brazos Custom Gunworks in the Dec 2009 Front Sight magazine opines that the hammer/sear should be evaluated at 30k and re-evaluation every 10k there after. Logically he expexcts sometimes the sear/hammer to need replacing near 30k or sometime thereafter. Just recently I replaced the hammer and sear. At over 50k (maybe 60k) I call that a win; especially with the "abuse" I subject my gun to. It still worked, I just didn't like the feel.
We drop the slide on empty chambers all the time in the Marine Corps. Whether its an M9 or M1911 it doesn't matter. We don't even consider it an issue. The 1911 is a battle pistol meant to be absolutely abused. Dropping the slide is the least of its worries. A couple hundred thousand rounds with no maintenance other than cleaning and decades of humping around the Earth is about the only thing that kills this old war hoarse.
@910burns To be fair to the otherside, they were mostly worried about their $200+ trigger jobs. One declared, definatively declared, dropping the slide on an empty chamber 50-100 would bungle-fart the trigger. No bungle-farting. But we're in the same camp- it takes a lot to kill a 1911, dropping the slide on an empty just isn't one of them.
@DeadeyeSteve I suppose I understand. But in the end a pistol is a weapon with the sole purpose of killing men. So long as the hammer falls (it doesn't matter how mushy the trigger is) you can kill your target. I promise you will not care how crisp your trigger is in combat.
@DeadeyeSteve I have an argument with that. I don't have any intentions of killing anyone. It's comments like this that give pistol shooters the ignorent redneck soldier of fortune wannabe reputation and hurts the whole pistol shooting community.
BTW, you're right, it probably won't hurt to drop the slide on an empty chamber but on the other hand, what is it going to accomplish? The manufacturers say not to do it, so I try to avoid it. But dry firing doesn't hurt them.
@titandriver70 No need to get defensive. Ignorance is found in the claim that practicing with a pistol works toward something other than combat skill, or that the targets one uses are representations of anything but a human target.
@910burns Not defensive, just trying to make a point. I shoot a pistol strictly for recreation. For me the targets represent targets. I don't hunt so when I go shoot sporting clays the targets represent targets. As an NRA pistol instructor I spend a good amount of time fighting the "Combat" and "Weapon" ideals that usually make people look at you like you are a nut when you say you are going to go shoot your pistol. I'm trying to promote shooting a pistol for the fun of it.
@titandriver70 I think the word "sole" is with what you take issue? If we are honest the sole purpose of the handgun to launch a projectile and the original intent was to create a device capable of being carried more easily than a rifle yet remain lethal in it's ability to launch the projectile. Being capable of killing a man may not be the sole purpose, but it remains the primary purpose to a very large degree. The morality of the act remains subject to the situation.
@DeadeyeSteve The use of the word "Sole" was a big part of the issue I had but it's more than that. I think the vast majority of pistol owners are people who enjoy shooting, either hunting or target, but are so turned off by all the "tactical, combat, weapon" attitude that they don't practice with their pistols and instead go shoot clay sports with their shotguns. After all, a shotgun is rarely called a "weapon" and the primary purpose is recreation. So it has a much larger following.
@titandriver70 I appreciate the well written response. I am also an NRA instructor. I was also advised to never call the firearm a weapon. We can agree not to do so, and not mention the unmentionable self-defense aspect. Of all things which can be used as a weapon, the firearm is one of very few actually built as a weapon- a few others share this unique nature. The targeter recoginzes the inherent weapon status of his tool. I don't believe PC disenguiness serves us. It remains a weapon.
@titandriver70 slingshotting the slide (pulling it back and letting it go) it taught in a lot of places as the best most universal way to ensure a gun you've just picked up is loaded. (IDF would be one place) With that habit built, and in addition to running the slide during dry fire, it's pretty likely a semi auto handgun will see it's slide dropped on an empty chamber in normal use. That's why I'm searching for a description of -how- this can damage a gun.
@lexmark136 Congrats, you stated a possibility.... I suppose you tink the dismissive tone means something?
The evidence presented indicates no metal wear, my gunsmith doesn' t think it did, and the evidence supports that more than 500 slide closures on an empty chamber did nothing bad.
BTW, the gun has almost 10k rounds through it since then, still a great trigger.
Damn, don't know what you're getting bent out of shape for. I meant it as a joke since you made that look pretty easy. Although, now that I think about it, the only one of the 5 1911's I have that is that easy to manipulate the slide on is my old Caspian bullseye gun......
@madcapHPS I'm not bent out of shape, nor was I attempting to be rude. Please be advised that my Kimber Supermatch II is much akin to your Caspian Bullseye gun, it also has a lot of rounds through it and it cycles like ballbearings on glass. I also have lots of experience manipulating the slide.
@madcapHPS I expect you have a calibrated eyeball to back that statement up? Actullay, I am running maybe a 15# spring. Likely a 17#. I was dropping the slide on an empty chamber with the factory spring way before I started reloading. I dropped the slide on an empty champer a lot more times than 500 times with full power factory springs.
It was a resopnse written back from Wilson Combat....person was "Nick M."....could have been a product manager or a secretary, so who really knows if this is from personal experience in visually seeing this first hand or copy and paste.
I think I know where you're headed: When reseting the hammer and all the slide allows small movement on the hammer which allows small movement of the hooks against the sear. The damage is theorized to happen because of bounce of the sear against the hammer hooks (according to Wilson Combat smith in lDT-ZgX0cp0,
This is probably the best post on the subject, better than any of mine. Thanks for taking the time to share your experience and insights. Much appreciated.
Gun Doctor 45-70: If 500 slide drops on a properly fitted and smithed trigger job doesn't degrade the trigger, then how many in your experience or simple estimation will it take to degrade the trigger?
Can we honestly say it's the result of the slide drop or just normal shooting?
Are you aware of any tests which showed that the slide drop on MT chamber caused more wear or damage than not?
These would take us miles from the theoretical argument we've at and to imperical evidence.
I've talked to shooters who report potentially thousands (maybe tens of thousands) of slide drops on an empty chamber as a result of extensive dry fire.
gundr4570 thanks for sharing your insight and experience. My smith agrees with you; keeping the trigger depressed prevents any alleged bouncing and any alleged damage. My Father-in-Law commanded an AMU, he never saw a cracked hammer hook. Like the USMC pistol team the AMU soldiers fire more than the average shooter on several order of magnitudes. For the average and even above average shooter, the fear of breaking the hooks isn't justified.
"Yes, dropping the slide on an empty chamber will cause the sear to bounce against the hammer hooks and will eventually crack the sear nose and/or hammer hooks. Once either or both have a crack or brake the chances of you pistol going full auto rise quickly. Dropping the slide a few times will not hurt the gun, too many times will. IF you want to let the slide rest against the slide, do so by hand and bring the slide into battery slowly.
LOL, maybe so. I hate to think of all the times I dropped the slide on an empty chamber during dry fire practice. Before I heard it was so bad for my gun. To be honest I don't drop the slide on an empty chamber on purpose like this. But, I don't get concerned when I do. Ain't no way an all steel 1911 is that sissy.
question...isnt there more force generated when you use the decocking lever....i know it seems to be more viloent when ever i have used it....this is a question not a statment so no need to freak out and go all i am a gun guru on me..
no worries, you didn't troll into my channel, and your asking a question, not insulting me- The amount of force w/ which the slide locks up is based on the spring weight and any impedience. Since the spring pressure doesn't change (it's the same spring) then the only thing which would change the energy on lockup is impedience (dirty, poorly lubed, or picking up a round).
Since the slide stop stops the slide slightly forward that a full cycle rearward and the slide encounters some friction past the slide stop (though admittedly very minimal) from slide lock the energy ought to be slightly less than slide pulled backwards and released. If one were to submit that there is slight drag across your fingers I'd have to agree and say then they ought to be equal. But there is not reason why the drop from lock should be more, at least not by the weapons design.
I am uncertain as to why you would perceive the release from slide lock as more violent. One could test this perceiption by holding the gun in a padded vice and dropping the slide on some type of puddy which deforms under impact from both slide lock and cycle and release. Measure the depth of the impact. If one had sophisticated impact measuring censors then it would be more reliable. If the puddy deforms more one way or another that would be some type of imperical evidence.
Good test, you should have worn some gloves to save your hands.
I only see one flaw here, though. You appear to be a competition shooter of some sort. Have you put a light recoil spring in, to shoot lighter target loads? Less spring force could explain it.
Also, 10,000 rounds downrange has probably weakened the spring over time, giving you a lighter spring. That could explain it.
I actually don't think it is an issue, just playing devil's advocate.
I think your mostly right. I am running a "lighter" spring, but only 15# as compared to 17.5# which is what I believe I recall Kimber installs at the factory. The spring doesn't have 10k on it, less than 5k. I shoot major power factor, but they aren't +P either.
The video was in response to strong declarative statements that only 100 slide drops would "bungle fart" my trigger job. Clearly it didn't.
Hi Deadeye Steve - and thank you for doing this as an experiment so that we will be able to see if this is true. I think it will take a lot to gradually wear the steel down - that is if it is true. I have always been told not to drop the slide AND not to dry fire as well. Anyway, you have my sub just for the effort. I will say a prayer that you won't develop some type of repetitive stress injury like tendonitus, arthritus, or carpel tunnel syndrome. Thank You. JAMES.
Thanks for the gracious comment. We can all take a lesson from your words- lots of things the experts claimed we should or shouldn't do based on their opinion yet sorely lackied fact have been disproven- like dry-firing. It used to be accepted fact that dry-firing a center-fire pistol would be disasterous. Now, not a single serious shooter doesn't dry fire magnitudes more than they actually shoot. I shot maybe 20k thru a G23, I must've dryfired it 200k.
The Kimber was turned over to David Berry, gunsmith at the Powderhorn in San Antonio, TX.
His advsied me today that the sear was, "a little beat up," but he was, "amazed at how small the wear was" on the gun given how many rounds had been through it.
Agreed, in fact the entire gun is built handle pressures most men can't generate (not that you couldn't break it if you tried). In the end the test is simple. It was worked on in the past by smith, I'll have him look it over again and I'll honestly report his opinion. If dropping a slide on an empty chamber will damage the gun I want people to know it for a fact, not because they heard hearsay repeated.
You'd think that if the breechface and firing pin hole are subject to constant explosions (firing the gun) that dropping the slide on it wouldn't be a problem.
Suicideking- if you read the video description you would find that clue you are looking for.
DeadeyeSteve 2 months ago
and he is just racking the gun?... i dont see that as the same as a slide lock where the slide is locked then dropped
suicideking302 2 months ago
this was a waste of my time!!! i always understood dropping a slide with ammo in the gun was the danger.... so whats the fucking point here with no ammo in the gun.....
suicideking302 2 months ago
Hey deadeye, props to you for doin that! Not so much to the gun, as I'm with you on the slide drops, but I saw your palm starting to get raw near the end there!
thegrossmaster 2 months ago
@thegrossmaster Indeed, I was not prepared for the heat manipulating the slides would produce or the friction on my hand.
DeadeyeSteve 2 months ago
My opinion is this... And like i said OPINION.... It may hurt it it may not but unless u haveE monedy just to throw around and buy new whenever u want why take tha risk it prolly wont hurt ur gun but like me most people dont have the money to replace parts or git a new gun whenever so why not just take tha extra precautions and not have to worry about it in the first place?
1988sureshot 3 months ago
@1988sureshot Thank, plz allow me to observe about your opinion which is summarized in that since we don't know if damage will occur and we don't have the money to fix or replace if damage does occur, then we should avoid. If these were the only factors then you might just me correct. However, these aren't the only factors.
DeadeyeSteve 3 months ago
Empty chamber slide drops mimick action of chambering just with more energy. However the chambering is followed by an explosion producing more energy than the slide drop. These actions cause "damage" known as wear. But, people are selective about what damage they worry about. Which is what you are doing. You are saying- to avoid possible repair from slide drops I won't do it, but I will shoot and deal with having to make the repairs shooting the gun WILL eventually necessitate.
DeadeyeSteve 3 months ago
The question which puts value to your position is one of how many chambers = 1 slide drop. It's the same action, remember. So if we shoot, we create the same wear, the same damage. No one knows, because this is the realm of big egos and big attitude and who can insult the other person the best and therefor be the winner of the argument. (not you, sir, you're not doing this) Is a slide drop = 10 chamberings? 100? 500? 1000? 10, 000? If shot that gun 70,000 times...
DeadeyeSteve 3 months ago
If 1 slide drop = 100 chamberings, then you observed the equivilent of 50,000 chamberings which is still less than the 70,000 chamberings, and is the equivilent of 120,000 chamberings and yet it's still fine. At the end of this all I come to this conclusion- people can't prove damage (v. wear) occurs, they can't identify how many slide drops are REQUIRED to damage the gun, yet they still sissy over a slide drop...
DeadeyeSteve 3 months ago
when the gun was built to handled the stress of 50,000+ explosions, before the repairs are expected.
.
I appreciate you posting as to allow me the opportunity to share those thoughts.
DeadeyeSteve 3 months ago
Oops NO sense!
ryanburbridge 10 months ago
Thank you for this!!!!
The claims of damaging a sear or hammer hooks on a 1911 make know sense. How many of the folks that buy into this crap actually know how the gun works? Just watched a vid by armory channel trying to explain why you should not decock a 1911. All I can say is fail.
ryanburbridge 10 months ago
M4. It is custom which was the type of trigger definitely declared to be bugglefarted by slide drops on empty. As little as 100 it was declared.
DeadeyeSteve 11 months ago
Have you had a custom trigger job done on this gun or is it stock?
M4CarbineGuy 11 months ago
maybe the reason the manufacturers tell us not to do that is due to litigation crazy people? Obviously, the gun companies can't prove one dropped the slide on an empty chamber a ton of times ... so on a warranty they won't want to replace a wrecked weapon system. Thanks for putting your .45 through the paces so I didn't have to.
ShooterReview 1 year ago
@YoungBeastly I'm looking forward to it. Take care.
DeadeyeSteve 1 year ago
@YoungBeastly Yes sir, my though was, "supposedly." I know that sounds snarky and I don't mean it that way. Unless we can account for a lot of variables all we have is a gun which broke and a theory as to why. We can't say why it happened as the gun was given to what? Thousands of people who shot 100s of thousands of rounds through it and ultimately it broke? Some people dropped the slide on an empty chamber, but on an order of what? One MT drop to 7 or 8 live feeds? Which is to blame?
DeadeyeSteve 1 year ago
@YoungBeastly We agree, you raise a valid point- a slide picking up a round wears, but supposedly less so that when a slide drops on an mt chamber. But to what degree? 10-1 ratio? 100-1? Or is it 2-1, 1.5-1 or even 1.00005 - 1? Was 500 slide drops on mt = 5000, 50,000, or 500,000 regular loadings? OR did I reduce weaponlife by only 2 shots? I don't know. Neither do all the E-experts. They are just repeating the unsubstantiated gobbledy-gook they head from someone else.
DeadeyeSteve 1 year ago
@DeadeyeSteve The logical following thought- since all guns wear, all guns have a maintenance cycle and service life. All parts wear. We replace the springs sooner than all other parts; replace at 5k rnds. @ 30k inspect for cracks in the slide, replace extractors, and check the barrel for accuracy/velocity. We can wear out the barrel and they are one of the hardest parts of the 1911 but the constant running of bullets across those lands wears them out.
DeadeyeSteve 1 year ago
@DeadeyeSteve Bob Londrigan of Brazos Custom Gunworks in the Dec 2009 Front Sight magazine opines that the hammer/sear should be evaluated at 30k and re-evaluation every 10k there after. Logically he expexcts sometimes the sear/hammer to need replacing near 30k or sometime thereafter. Just recently I replaced the hammer and sear. At over 50k (maybe 60k) I call that a win; especially with the "abuse" I subject my gun to. It still worked, I just didn't like the feel.
DeadeyeSteve 1 year ago
You need to do it a few more times than that before it hurts your gun.
(a joke).
ronpaul2008rocks 1 year ago
@ronpaul2008rocks I got the joke and laughed with you. I also agree- maybe just 50 more times and the gun would have simple fell apart in my hands.
DeadeyeSteve 1 year ago
We drop the slide on empty chambers all the time in the Marine Corps. Whether its an M9 or M1911 it doesn't matter. We don't even consider it an issue. The 1911 is a battle pistol meant to be absolutely abused. Dropping the slide is the least of its worries. A couple hundred thousand rounds with no maintenance other than cleaning and decades of humping around the Earth is about the only thing that kills this old war hoarse.
910burns 1 year ago
@910burns To be fair to the otherside, they were mostly worried about their $200+ trigger jobs. One declared, definatively declared, dropping the slide on an empty chamber 50-100 would bungle-fart the trigger. No bungle-farting. But we're in the same camp- it takes a lot to kill a 1911, dropping the slide on an empty just isn't one of them.
DeadeyeSteve 1 year ago
@DeadeyeSteve I suppose I understand. But in the end a pistol is a weapon with the sole purpose of killing men. So long as the hammer falls (it doesn't matter how mushy the trigger is) you can kill your target. I promise you will not care how crisp your trigger is in combat.
910burns 1 year ago
@910burns No arguments with that, none at all.
DeadeyeSteve 1 year ago
@DeadeyeSteve I have an argument with that. I don't have any intentions of killing anyone. It's comments like this that give pistol shooters the ignorent redneck soldier of fortune wannabe reputation and hurts the whole pistol shooting community.
BTW, you're right, it probably won't hurt to drop the slide on an empty chamber but on the other hand, what is it going to accomplish? The manufacturers say not to do it, so I try to avoid it. But dry firing doesn't hurt them.
titandriver70 1 year ago
@titandriver70 No need to get defensive. Ignorance is found in the claim that practicing with a pistol works toward something other than combat skill, or that the targets one uses are representations of anything but a human target.
910burns 1 year ago
@910burns Not defensive, just trying to make a point. I shoot a pistol strictly for recreation. For me the targets represent targets. I don't hunt so when I go shoot sporting clays the targets represent targets. As an NRA pistol instructor I spend a good amount of time fighting the "Combat" and "Weapon" ideals that usually make people look at you like you are a nut when you say you are going to go shoot your pistol. I'm trying to promote shooting a pistol for the fun of it.
titandriver70 1 year ago
@titandriver70 Sorry, I understand.
910burns 1 year ago
@titandriver70 I think the word "sole" is with what you take issue? If we are honest the sole purpose of the handgun to launch a projectile and the original intent was to create a device capable of being carried more easily than a rifle yet remain lethal in it's ability to launch the projectile. Being capable of killing a man may not be the sole purpose, but it remains the primary purpose to a very large degree. The morality of the act remains subject to the situation.
DeadeyeSteve 1 year ago
@DeadeyeSteve The use of the word "Sole" was a big part of the issue I had but it's more than that. I think the vast majority of pistol owners are people who enjoy shooting, either hunting or target, but are so turned off by all the "tactical, combat, weapon" attitude that they don't practice with their pistols and instead go shoot clay sports with their shotguns. After all, a shotgun is rarely called a "weapon" and the primary purpose is recreation. So it has a much larger following.
titandriver70 1 year ago
@titandriver70 I appreciate the well written response. I am also an NRA instructor. I was also advised to never call the firearm a weapon. We can agree not to do so, and not mention the unmentionable self-defense aspect. Of all things which can be used as a weapon, the firearm is one of very few actually built as a weapon- a few others share this unique nature. The targeter recoginzes the inherent weapon status of his tool. I don't believe PC disenguiness serves us. It remains a weapon.
DeadeyeSteve 1 year ago
@titandriver70 slingshotting the slide (pulling it back and letting it go) it taught in a lot of places as the best most universal way to ensure a gun you've just picked up is loaded. (IDF would be one place) With that habit built, and in addition to running the slide during dry fire, it's pretty likely a semi auto handgun will see it's slide dropped on an empty chamber in normal use. That's why I'm searching for a description of -how- this can damage a gun.
Galt425 1 year ago
Comment removed
titandriver70 1 year ago
in that case sir, was your recoil spring the standard type? about how much was the force of the recoil spring?
lisolangka 1 year ago
@lisolangka
asked and answered- look below.
DeadeyeSteve 1 year ago
@DeadeyeSteve my fault..anyway, thanks for answering sir.
lisolangka 1 year ago
@lisolangka No worries. Be safe, and have lots of fun.
DeadeyeSteve 1 year ago
@DeadeyeSteve thank you sir.
lisolangka 1 year ago
Your videos are very entertaining! You would be fun to go shooting with lol.
thefastlife4me1 1 year ago
congrats... it fires, but that doesn't mean you didn't wear down any metal.
lexmark136 1 year ago
@lexmark136 Congrats, you stated a possibility.... I suppose you tink the dismissive tone means something?
The evidence presented indicates no metal wear, my gunsmith doesn' t think it did, and the evidence supports that more than 500 slide closures on an empty chamber did nothing bad.
BTW, the gun has almost 10k rounds through it since then, still a great trigger.
and it doesn't just fire, it fires really well.
DeadeyeSteve 1 year ago
Damn, don't know what you're getting bent out of shape for. I meant it as a joke since you made that look pretty easy. Although, now that I think about it, the only one of the 5 1911's I have that is that easy to manipulate the slide on is my old Caspian bullseye gun......
madcapHPS 2 years ago
@madcapHPS I'm not bent out of shape, nor was I attempting to be rude. Please be advised that my Kimber Supermatch II is much akin to your Caspian Bullseye gun, it also has a lot of rounds through it and it cycles like ballbearings on glass. I also have lots of experience manipulating the slide.
DeadeyeSteve 1 year ago
Looks like a pretty light spring. :)
madcapHPS 2 years ago
@madcapHPS I expect you have a calibrated eyeball to back that statement up? Actullay, I am running maybe a 15# spring. Likely a 17#. I was dropping the slide on an empty chamber with the factory spring way before I started reloading. I dropped the slide on an empty champer a lot more times than 500 times with full power factory springs.
DeadeyeSteve 2 years ago
It was a resopnse written back from Wilson Combat....person was "Nick M."....could have been a product manager or a secretary, so who really knows if this is from personal experience in visually seeing this first hand or copy and paste.
mlacey56 2 years ago
I think I know where you're headed: When reseting the hammer and all the slide allows small movement on the hammer which allows small movement of the hooks against the sear. The damage is theorized to happen because of bounce of the sear against the hammer hooks (according to Wilson Combat smith in lDT-ZgX0cp0,
See also 2:55 on 1H3IFJXxyEs).
Without the dry fire the slide doesn't reset the parts and I am moving the slide but not resetting.
Correctly devined?
DeadeyeSteve 2 years ago
Maybe you could post video with large cardboard representations to explain this all. Those little parts are hard to see on video.
DeadeyeSteve 2 years ago
This was done with all original parts.
DeadeyeSteve 2 years ago
This is probably the best post on the subject, better than any of mine. Thanks for taking the time to share your experience and insights. Much appreciated.
DeadeyeSteve 2 years ago
I agree. I stated while doing the slide drops that the slide was getting hot. Whether it be friction, solar or the 8 shots, it was heating up.
DeadeyeSteve 2 years ago
Gun Doctor 45-70: If 500 slide drops on a properly fitted and smithed trigger job doesn't degrade the trigger, then how many in your experience or simple estimation will it take to degrade the trigger?
Can we honestly say it's the result of the slide drop or just normal shooting?
Are you aware of any tests which showed that the slide drop on MT chamber caused more wear or damage than not?
These would take us miles from the theoretical argument we've at and to imperical evidence.
DeadeyeSteve 2 years ago
I've talked to shooters who report potentially thousands (maybe tens of thousands) of slide drops on an empty chamber as a result of extensive dry fire.
DeadeyeSteve 2 years ago
Damn that must hurt your hands after all that!. So what is the "empty chamber" drop supposed to cause anyway?
chuckeieio 2 years ago
The list is long but distinguished:
damage locking lugs slide and barrel
shear of the barrel linkage
damage the breech face
but most often cited
"bungle-fart" the trigger by damaging the sear and even shear off the hammer hooks.
DeadeyeSteve 2 years ago
Sorry you had to do this Deadeye Steve, looked like a real pain lol...
but yea, thanks. I never had any problems with mine either. I run a Colt and a SA. Both Gi.
Shabazz762 2 years ago
gundr4570 thanks for sharing your insight and experience. My smith agrees with you; keeping the trigger depressed prevents any alleged bouncing and any alleged damage. My Father-in-Law commanded an AMU, he never saw a cracked hammer hook. Like the USMC pistol team the AMU soldiers fire more than the average shooter on several order of magnitudes. For the average and even above average shooter, the fear of breaking the hooks isn't justified.
DeadeyeSteve 2 years ago
"Yes, dropping the slide on an empty chamber will cause the sear to bounce against the hammer hooks and will eventually crack the sear nose and/or hammer hooks. Once either or both have a crack or brake the chances of you pistol going full auto rise quickly. Dropping the slide a few times will not hurt the gun, too many times will. IF you want to let the slide rest against the slide, do so by hand and bring the slide into battery slowly.
Thank you
Nick M."--from wilson combat though
mlacey56 2 years ago
v= lDT-ZgX0cp0
Has the bounce even been proven to happen?
Has it been measured at the point of impact?
Can some engineer or metallurgist equate this difference or the strength of the impact into X drops will result in Y measurable damage?
Are we certain it is the bounce or just a poorly fitted sear/hammer hook connection?
So far, no one can answer this.
Unlike poser 32213P, The Wilson folk have explain why they think it is bad. Now I am waiting on imperical evidence.
Thanks
DeadeyeSteve 2 years ago
that's some feat. I feel your palm and fingers.
TheHiddenPart 2 years ago
all in the name of research!
-thats well over a lifetime of dropping it while empty isnt it?
dboy11368 2 years ago
LOL, maybe so. I hate to think of all the times I dropped the slide on an empty chamber during dry fire practice. Before I heard it was so bad for my gun. To be honest I don't drop the slide on an empty chamber on purpose like this. But, I don't get concerned when I do. Ain't no way an all steel 1911 is that sissy.
DeadeyeSteve 2 years ago
I got tired after just WATCHING this!!!
cilayin 2 years ago
LOL -after I finished just 200 I began to wonder what I got myself into.
DeadeyeSteve 2 years ago
question...isnt there more force generated when you use the decocking lever....i know it seems to be more viloent when ever i have used it....this is a question not a statment so no need to freak out and go all i am a gun guru on me..
gunnuttcx4storm 2 years ago
no worries, you didn't troll into my channel, and your asking a question, not insulting me- The amount of force w/ which the slide locks up is based on the spring weight and any impedience. Since the spring pressure doesn't change (it's the same spring) then the only thing which would change the energy on lockup is impedience (dirty, poorly lubed, or picking up a round).
DeadeyeSteve 2 years ago
Since the slide stop stops the slide slightly forward that a full cycle rearward and the slide encounters some friction past the slide stop (though admittedly very minimal) from slide lock the energy ought to be slightly less than slide pulled backwards and released. If one were to submit that there is slight drag across your fingers I'd have to agree and say then they ought to be equal. But there is not reason why the drop from lock should be more, at least not by the weapons design.
DeadeyeSteve 2 years ago
I am uncertain as to why you would perceive the release from slide lock as more violent. One could test this perceiption by holding the gun in a padded vice and dropping the slide on some type of puddy which deforms under impact from both slide lock and cycle and release. Measure the depth of the impact. If one had sophisticated impact measuring censors then it would be more reliable. If the puddy deforms more one way or another that would be some type of imperical evidence.
DeadeyeSteve 2 years ago
It is until someone proves it does. 500 slide drops on my 1911
DID NOT
damage the hammer and sear faces.
For the record- I've put another 5000 rnds on that same hammer and sear face-
IT'S STILL A BEAUTIFUL TRIGGER PULL.
Right now all you got are empty words.
DeadeyeSteve 2 years ago
Good test, you should have worn some gloves to save your hands.
I only see one flaw here, though. You appear to be a competition shooter of some sort. Have you put a light recoil spring in, to shoot lighter target loads? Less spring force could explain it.
Also, 10,000 rounds downrange has probably weakened the spring over time, giving you a lighter spring. That could explain it.
I actually don't think it is an issue, just playing devil's advocate.
lamarbrog 2 years ago
Yep, gloves would have been helpfull.
I think your mostly right. I am running a "lighter" spring, but only 15# as compared to 17.5# which is what I believe I recall Kimber installs at the factory. The spring doesn't have 10k on it, less than 5k. I shoot major power factor, but they aren't +P either.
The video was in response to strong declarative statements that only 100 slide drops would "bungle fart" my trigger job. Clearly it didn't.
DeadeyeSteve 2 years ago
Hi Deadeye Steve - and thank you for doing this as an experiment so that we will be able to see if this is true. I think it will take a lot to gradually wear the steel down - that is if it is true. I have always been told not to drop the slide AND not to dry fire as well. Anyway, you have my sub just for the effort. I will say a prayer that you won't develop some type of repetitive stress injury like tendonitus, arthritus, or carpel tunnel syndrome. Thank You. JAMES.
buzzclark 2 years ago
Thanks for the gracious comment. We can all take a lesson from your words- lots of things the experts claimed we should or shouldn't do based on their opinion yet sorely lackied fact have been disproven- like dry-firing. It used to be accepted fact that dry-firing a center-fire pistol would be disasterous. Now, not a single serious shooter doesn't dry fire magnitudes more than they actually shoot. I shot maybe 20k thru a G23, I must've dryfired it 200k.
DeadeyeSteve 2 years ago
Where are you shooting in this vid?
drew83OEFvet 2 years ago
The Bullethole, San Antonio, TX.
DeadeyeSteve 2 years ago
hahahah. Good show, my friend, good show!
Stonyman65 2 years ago
Interesting. Will you follow up here with the findings of the smith? Thanks.
RobDTom 2 years ago
Yes.
DeadeyeSteve 2 years ago
The Kimber was turned over to David Berry, gunsmith at the Powderhorn in San Antonio, TX.
His advsied me today that the sear was, "a little beat up," but he was, "amazed at how small the wear was" on the gun given how many rounds had been through it.
DeadeyeSteve 2 years ago
Agreed, in fact the entire gun is built handle pressures most men can't generate (not that you couldn't break it if you tried). In the end the test is simple. It was worked on in the past by smith, I'll have him look it over again and I'll honestly report his opinion. If dropping a slide on an empty chamber will damage the gun I want people to know it for a fact, not because they heard hearsay repeated.
DeadeyeSteve 2 years ago
You'd think that if the breechface and firing pin hole are subject to constant explosions (firing the gun) that dropping the slide on it wouldn't be a problem.
6Demon6Face6 2 years ago