D. Scarlatti - Sonata for Keyboard in D Minor K. 141

[Tjid7ske]

Great music. Perfectly played by Christophe Rousset!!

[Viahandel06]

Harmonico, in what part of Domenico's life did he write this sonata? Was he in Lisbon, or during his time in Rome?

[douskara]

It's like hearing a different piece compared to Martha Argerigh's performance on the piano. I believe that the repeated note acts in a more functional note on the Harpsichord, wehereas in the piano it acts more like an effect.

[friendant72]

Most harpsichordists use a little rubato, but not because they're being "Romantic"; on harpsichord, you can't do dynamics or accents by pressing harder or softer on the keys - everything just comes out at the same dynamic because of the way the mechanism works. So you have to slow down at emphatic points in the music to create the effect of an 'accent', or to emphasise something. It can sound strange to modern ears, but there is plenty of research suggesting this is how it was done.

[videogamer314]

What an awesome piece!

[DarkwingScooter]

This is an excellent interpretation. +1 Internet.

[mrmolinodelahoz]

this sonata is supposed to sound like a noisy flemenco guitar. It is too clean to imitate the right sound, espedcially in the left hand which is playing staccato chords where there should be savagely rolled chords.

[HARMONICO101]

"this sonata is supposed to sound like a noisy flemenco guitar."

I don't think Scarlatti wrote that on the score, so Mr. Rousset can do his own interpretation.

[mrmolinodelahoz]

I don´t think that you understood what i wrote. The piece SHOULD sound like a flemenco guitar, but it DOESN¨T.

The score does tell you the nature of the music by it´s intrinsic content.

Knowing the style indicates the character of the pieces within a limited range of variety. But this piece is not about clean playing, It´s about a raucos, in Spanish called Jaleo. See painting of Jaleo in Elizabeth Stuart Gardner museum in Boston.

[HARMONICO101]

What you are saying is nothing but subjective interpretation.

[mrmolinodelahoz]

Not So. It comes from a knowledge of the culture in which the music exists. It is not necessary to live in Spain as I do to understand this. One must have a collective listening experience with both guitar music and harpsichord music to form an OBJECTIVE deduction.

Hint--Any time your hear repeated notes it is most likely a reference to mandoline or guitar. Phrygian harmonies are another.

Unexpected changes in tonality and rhythym is another. It just doesnt jump out of nowhere.

[HARMONICO101]

"Any time your hear repeated notes it is most likely a reference to mandoline or guitar"

That's also very typical of violin music.

Look, clearly you are looking at interpretation of this piece form one unconvincing perspective. Though it is no secret that Scarlatti was inspired by local music, there still seems to be no reason that he would through away his Baroque era elegance and cleanliness.

[mrmolinodelahoz]

Violin repeated notes are usually a compound melody of two different notes as in Bach. The guitar repeats the same note as does the mandolin.

He didn´t throw away anything but he was more varied then you know . Sometimes he was very savage and elegance and cleanliness had nothing do do whatsoever with his style. Don´t try to catagorize Scarlatti because there are almost no 2 sonatas which fit into the same barrell of monkeys.

[HARMONICO101]

"Violin repeated notes are usually a compound melody of two different notes as in Bach."

No. Sometimes you just have repeated notes. Tremolo anyone?

"Sometimes he was very savage and elegance and cleanliness had nothing do do whatsoever with his style."

Then you truly don't know anything about Baroque harpsichord music. Clearly you seem to think he was some kind of Romantic who lived over hundered years before the movement occured.

[mrmolinodelahoz]

Music is a little like life.

You are driving down the road and you see a curve. The road has no sign to slow down because you can see the curve. If you didn´t adapt to the situation around you you would not be in reality.

There is much more in the score when you know what to look for and no composer with few exceptions tell you what to infer from the music in the final performance. That is where your creativity and cultural education come into play.

[HARMONICO101]

That's a poor analogy becuase it is obvious that there is only one route to take, which is not the case with music.

[mrmolinodelahoz]

No Sir, There are many routes to take, That is why each performer comes out differently. If they were all the same there would not be a need for various performers. There´s NOTHING in life which has only one route to take.

[HARMONICO101]

Well then why must this performer play this with an aesthetic that never existed in his lifetime?

[semicroma]

how do you know that it should sound like that and how do you know how flamenco sounded 1685 - 1757?

[mrmolinodelahoz]

Firstly Scarlatti was in Naples in 1685 and what he knew of sounds then did not exist in his knowledge. But all arts and sciences have years of study. How does a doctor know whats wrong with you by just listening to what you have to say'?

It comes with a lifetime of study, observation, reading, comparisons, and parallel observation of cultural aspects.

The musical score only tells you the notes.

Nothing more, and that is like seeing dance steps on paper. You have to learn to dance.

[semicroma]

You didnt really explain why the piece should be played like "a noisy flamenco guitar" (whatever that means). I feel you just used att argument of authority, and then argued for that the performer need to do an interpretation of a piece (which was really not my question). Btw Did it really exist flamenco and flamenco guitars at that time? Do we know how that music sounded like?

[HARMONICO101]

Flamenco as we know it today did not exist in Baroque Spain. The only comparable dance from that era would be the fandango,

[mrmolinodelahoz]

The museums have many remaining examples of Spanish guitars and vihuelas etc. Goya painted them and so did Watteau in France. Buy your self a recording of authentic Flemenco guitar music and maybe the lights will go on. Or look for some music on You Tube, and start listening with your heart and not only your rational head. When you smell a barbeque how do you know if it is fish, chicken, or hamburgers which are cooking? Use your senses. Once you get it your whole experi9ence will change.

[HARMONICO101]

Flemenco guitar music didn't even exist yet!

[HARMONICO101]

So then your "flamenco guitar" interpretation is the only correct way to play this? Don't you see the hypocrisy in your argument?

[mrmolinodelahoz]

If if walks like a duck

quacks like a duck

swims like a duck

I must be a duck.

[HARMONICO101]

Again, total subjectivity.

[mrmolinodelahoz]

Yes you are right, If I see a duck my own subjectivity tells me that it is in fact a duck.

[HARMONICO101]

Or is it an image of a duck? Or is it a video clip of a duck, or a computer-genereted image of a duck, then is it truly a duck?

[mrmolinodelahoz]

That is referred to as a delusion.

[HARMONICO101]

But what is the delusion? The only thing confirming the existence of the duck is electrical signals being interpreted by your brain. That's why hallucinations are so real to people who suffer from them.

[mrmolinodelahoz]

Believe what ever you say, at least you have made one person happy.

[HARMONICO101]

Ugh, is it possible to have a debate about classical music without the other person acting as if they are in this great pulpit of knowledge preaching to the unwashed masses who are not "enlightened" enough to counter-argue, or god-forbid they have a different perspective?

Pretentiousness is a plague among this community.

[chuckfll]

Amen......This is a site that, for me, exists to broaden one's horizons...Sadly, for some, it exists merely for them to bloviate and fill their otherwise empty lives...As Virgil Fox wisely said, Those who can, do it....those who can't, bitch about it.

[vikingmerijn]

Indeed, but were many scholars of times past any different in attitude? Just relevating... :) I think the average person today is quite more a thinker then the average person of an.1711... ;)

[wevil770]

@mrmolinodelahoz lol.

[mrmolinodelahoz]

Do you know what painting by numbers is?

Each space has a pre formed space with a number in it and you select the paint with the same number and fill in the space.

In the end this has nothing to do with art or even crude painting.

Following the score ONLY is like playing by numbers. It takes an artis to make the gradations and fluctuations necessary to make a living work come alive.

Anyone who doesn´t understand this is like someone looking for love in the telephone book.

[HARMONICO101]

I still see no reason why his interpretation is wrong and your is right.

[mrmolinodelahoz]

Then you are not reading with any real interest what I have written.

Sometimes, we are only ready to understand at the right time, which has not yet arrived.

[HARMONICO101]

Don't give me this pretentious BS. You haven't convinced me that Scarlatti played with an aesthetic that didn't exist and would have been innapropriate for art music of the 18th century. There were still a lot rules in music, not like in the late romantic era.

[mrmolinodelahoz]

It´s called style. If you are a clothing designer, or interior decorator, or car designer you must know STYLE.

when you haven´t yet developed it you dismiss it as something nonexistant.

When you have accumulated style you see.

[HARMONICO101]

I get style buddy. I just don't think that (1) Scarlatti had the style you suggest (which is a very romantic almost Bartokian style) and (2) that whatever this style is you suggest., I don't think that it is the only correct interpretation.

[mrmolinodelahoz]

Ever work of art or music has historical precidents. By study, one must do some reverse engineering to go back step by step to discover the truth. This began with Dolmetsch and Wanda Landowska and only in the last few years have some people made historical discoveries.

Many talented people out there today.

Many dummies too.

[mrmolinodelahoz]

See John Singer Sargents¨painting in the Elizabeth Stuard Gardnir museum, Boston called Jaleo, (raucous)

If you don´t get the sound equivalent from that painting then your perception is not very responsive. Consider the effect upon Ravel, De Falla, Granados, Salvatghe, De Bussey that the Flemenco had. And then trace your steps backwards like an anthropologist traces back the bones of humans to 4.4 million years ago in Ethopia.

[HARMONICO101]

Why do you think that modern painting has anything to do with a baroque aesthetic?

[mrmolinodelahoz]

Because De Falla, Debussy, montsalvache, Ravel, Rodrigo are the first steps which connect the present with the past.

Painting always parallels music, etc.

You must learn to see art and music as expressions of the same idea. You start with the present which you can understand and work your way backwards step by step until you can see Gianquinto in Scarlatti. or Tiepolo, or Mengs.

[HARMONICO101]

They have no stylistic connection to baroque music.

"You must learn to see art and music as expressions of the same idea."

Doesn't mean that Scarlatti would use the same syntax, style, and emotional impulse as these composers. Music and Drama have changed alot over the centuries.

[HARMONICO101]

I remain unconvinced because you are clearly putting together an interpretation looking from the present backward. To truly understand a composer, and create an interpretation of his/her music that is as close as possible to that composers own interpretation, you have to look from the past forward to the composer. You need to see where he/she came from, not necessarily what would happen after the composer's lifetime.

[witchcraftlord]

i wanna learn this, i need the music.!!!! i could only learn so much from just hearing it

[cmpsr9258]

It's on the imslp.

[BarNuun]

Rousset was the director for exquisite music in Farinelli, an historic film (1994).

[HARMONICO101]

Was he really? I didn't know that. He is an excellant harpsichordist.

[EsperanzaGalera]

Like it :)