" Ali barely trained for 1st fight with Frazier"... totally false. Ali " fooled" around because he couldn't do anything else. Volume on or off , Joe dominated winning at least 10 rounds. Ali was digging in and throwing hard punches in first 3 rds.because he knew he wasn't gonna be able to handle the pace. NO version of Ali in his 2nd career would beat Joe on that march nite in '71. Where do you get that the crowd was one sided for Joe? Of couse the k.d. played a role, it won the rd. for Joe.
If joe dominated why did he end up in the hospital for 2 weeks after the fight with a twisted jaw and injuries to his internal organs? Look at their faces after the fight, clearly frazier took a lot of punches.
@Triangulove - Twisted jaw? injuries to his internal organs? lmao... Did Joe get his internal organ injuries from Ali's blistering body attack? I seem to remember Ali had the "twisted" jaw. Newsflash... Judges dont award fights on the looks of the fighters after the fight. Do some research... Joe went to the hosp. for exhaustion, which he got by handing out one serious ass whipping.
He did suffer a jaw injury toward the end of the fight, as did ali. Joes entire left jaw area was welted, and he was nearly blind in one eye. I am not saying ali won the fight, but he landed a lot of punches, and it showed on joes face afterwards.
@Triangulove - I hate not to agree with you but Frazier suffered no jaw injuries. His face was a mask of lumps especially over the eyes. Ali did land a lot of punches but this was not scored by amateur rules(a jab counts as much as a powerful hook). Joe dominated this fight by all accounts, almosy knocking Ali out in the 11th.
I n '74 Joe was lucky to be 50% of the fighter he was in '71. The Ali that beat Joe in '74 wouldn't have come close to beating a '71 Frazier. Ali wasn't at his best in'71 but he was a lot closer to his prime than Joe was in '74.
@1899sharkey Ali barely trained for his first fight against joe frazier and fooled around. But you have a point frazier of 71 was a machine and very hard to stop but If you actually score the 71 fight by turning off the volume. You'll see that Ali won more round than frazier. The crowed and judges that night were in support of frazier and that knock down played a role too. Otherwise In my mind Ali won the fight.
Chuvalo EASILY went 15 w/ Clay in 66'. No bloody mess - Chuvalo simply was outpointed. A year later Chuvalo fights Frazier. First (and last) time Chuvalo ever STOPPED...4th RD. TKO. I laugh at the Ali-Superfans who say a "prime" Ali would've beat a "prime" Frazier. Check Joe's power v. Chuvalo compared to how Ali fared year earlier.
Chuvalo was stopped by Foreman 3 years later in 3 rounds. Foreman dazed him and pounded him in the corner until the ref stopped the bout. Frazier was a hurtful puncher, even tough Jerry Quarry could not go further than 7 rds in their first bout due to cuts, and 5 rds in the second bout by overwhelming force, simply. Although not a true KO artist, Joe's punches were hard enough for most people to just fall over at some point. Way of a true pressure fighter.
@3244gorilla A prime Joe Frazier did beat a prime Ali in 1971 Madison Square garden. You could also say that Frazier would of beaten Ali in Manilla if it wasn't for his trainer pulling him out at the end of the 14th round. Frazier, in his corner wanted to fight, but Ali in his wanted to give up and if Frazier's trainer had waited about half a minute more then Frazier would have won. Frazier's 2 defeats to Foreman don't reflect his skill at all. RIP the Legend Smokin' Joe.
@finerbiner A bigger and stronger Ali was in '71. He was lighter and faster in 60's. In '71, Joe could move around a ring just as fast as Ali, Ali couldn't handle how strong Joe was in '71, why would Ali be able to handle Joe's strength when he himself was not as strong in the 60's? Ali would have been forced into fighting Joe, no matter what year it was. In '71, Ali never beats Joe.
@blite13 - Thats the point that Ali's rabid fans cant digest. While he had lost some speed during his layoff, he also physically matured and was much stronger in '71 than in '67.
@1899sharkey Bigger and stronger are not the same as better. When Ali beat Liston was he bigger and stronger than him? What is not believable is that Ali would hone his craft for a decade, to the point of becoming the worlds clear best, take 3.5 yrs off and come back better. The returning Ali showed the world how tough he was, but he was not better.
@finerbiner - You're right. He wasn't a better fighter but he was a little stronger. I've never said that a '71 Joe would beat a '67 Ali, only that it would be a great fight.
@3244gorilla Any person who thinks that the this person only beat that person and another beat them more stuff can not be taken seriously. It has exactly zero value in predicting anything. It is plain DUMB.
yep, and just like always people forget Croatians and just shun them and many other legends btw, and still everyone thinks that Ali is the best. No, George Chuvalo was the BEST!!! And all Croatians and smart people know it
the key point in this fight was the stamina, frazier had super stamina, if you watch the first moments, chuvalo was stronger than frazier, he pushed back frazier without problems, but frazier dominated him later because he had better stamina, and his pressure was lethal
@combatesdeboxeo I didn't know chuvalo till I watched "Facing Ali" and yeah , he was very strong, damn he fought Frazier, Ali and Foreman... Boxing at that era of hw was hard as hell
Apparently toughness is not facing the best punchers around and taking a punch and staying on your feet but it is avoiding noted punchers bar one huge guy who decks you at will and you are tough if you get up.
@1899sharkey. Yes indeed. Given that Calzaghe is a lot bigger than Hagler, somehow the rules of boxing don't apply. Calzaghe did enter the ring at about 180lbs while Hagler entered at just over 160 so they would never ever meet.
BTW Joe Frazier has random, ridiculously low percentage, plucked from thin air percentage of the punch resistance of Evander Holyfield.
If you don't shut up, I'll get Frank Bruno to you, Joe Bugner.
@1899sharkey Ah, so speaks the man who commented on Ellis-Frazier and ignored the fact that the commentator noted that Ellis had been in command for 2.5 rounds, Frazier having made a slow start.
Given that Tyson didn't lose a fight before the 5th round until he was 38, that means Frazier will have to be fitted with an iron head and hands to survive that long and win since his defence is woeful in the early rounds and he never makes a good start.
@BruceinFalkirk - Hey Mr. spellcheck english proffessor, Tyson didn't lose a fight before the 5th round until he was 38? What about the fight where he panicked and started eating Holy? Rolmao
Tougher than Joe Frazier? That comment alone proves that bruceinfuckirk is an idiot. NOBODY was tougher than Frazier,very few were just as tough, but NOBODY tougher. Tyson is about six levels below the Ali, Foreman and Fraziers, just an overhyped creation of Jim Jacobs who failed miserably everytime he fought a real fighter.Did that idiot actually sayTinman would beat Ali "cause Ali is open to the left hook" Unfuckinbelievable!
Nope, didn't say that Tyson would beat Ali. Joe Frazier is Robocop, Superman, the Incredible Hulk and James Bond put together.
Frazier is brilliant because he only lost to all-time greats. Ali lost to Leon Spinks and Ken Norton and, in fact, only narrowly beat Norton at best and even Ali thinks he lost the third fight. That makes Ali useless.
Ali was also nearly KO'd by Henry Cooper which also makes him useless. and other incoherent rubbish that follows from what you wrote
If Frazier was going to beat Tyson, he was going to have to make round 4 or 5 completely unhurt. When he got going, Frazier was difficult to hit and a much different proposition. Then, having done so, he would be able to hit Tyson steadily and beat him on points or by a late-round stoppage.
Tyson, however, was a lot stronger physically than Frazier. I just do not see how Frazier is going to be able to take Tyson's punches as he can't avoid them like Douglas, Holyfield and Lewis did.
@BruceinFalkirk Just rewatched Tyson-Holyfield I (Japanese commentary, o well). Holyfield was 34 and a big underdog. I don't think he won by "avoiding" Tyson's punches, Tyson did land several. But Holyfield showed no fear, didn't back up (pushed Tyson to the ropes a lot), did not rely on his jab, but did a lot of counterpunching with power shots in combination. His best punch probably his right, (a kinda half straight, half uppercut), but he knocked down Tyson in rnd 6 with a Left Hook.
@ogedei Holyfield was only taking one shot at a time and his toughness is a lot better than Joe Frazier's. His upper body strength is also a lot better than Joe Frazier's and Holyfield's chin can take the shots from an admittedly old George Foreman but that old George would still have eaten Joe Frazier for breakfast.
@BruceinFalkirk I think you underrate Joe Frazier's toughness; where's the evidence that Holyfield's is a lot better? Actually, they may be equally tough, but both would be well above Tyson (I'm talking mental toughness, resilience, response to adversity). Maybe Holyfield was "taking one shot at a time" because Tyson couldn't adapt to an infighting, unintimidated, combination throwing, skilled fighter, whose best punch might be his left hook and who was a natural cruiserweight.
@ogedei - Holyfield's toughness, I rate above Frazier's because he was nearly always the smaller man in the ring, often giving away a lot of weight.
Holyfield was taking one shot because Tyson was only throwing one shot. He was also 215lbs for his Tyson fight and had fought at heavyweight for 8 years. He moved up to heavyweight in 1988 because he had to starve himself to make the weight.
He was no more a natural cruiser than a 30 year old Thomas Hearns was a natural welterweight.
@BruceinFalkirk - I've figured it out. You were Tinmans cellmate in Indy that he talks about so fondly. You still FEEL that connection after all these years.
I figured out that you know about jail sex from personal experience. When any 70's fighter goes down, he 'got up to win' but Holyfield's brief knockdown means that he was almost KO'd. Lewis's defeats mean that he is useless and anyone he beat is also useless even though Lewis beat everyone he ever faced, if not always the first time.
@BruceinFalkirk Holyfield was damn tough, that's for sure; we could argue all day whether he or Frazier was tougher, but most would agree that they are very close in toughness, and BOTH are well above Tyson. If you rewatch Tyson-Holyfield I, you'd be hard pressed to argue that Tyson was only throwing one shot; he was perhaps just connecting with one shot, but he tried to throw more than one shot. It's just that Holyfield didn't back down, and counterpunched very effectively.
One other thing. Holyfield had a shootout with Tyson when they were both amateurs, handy experience for later as the Real Deal held his own. It's also one thing to not be intimidated before you get in the ring, it's another to still not be intimidated after your opponent has hit you.
@BruceinFalkirk Frazier wouldn't be intimidated before he gets in the ring or after he gets hit or even knocked down. Harder to argue that Tyson would be unaffected if he gets hit or knocked down; some argue that he was only a front-runner. I'm not sure about that, but it's hard to make the case that Tyson handled adversity when faced with good fighters. I think Tyson tests Frazier's chin, but Frazier tests Tyson's character in a match where both get hit hard. It could be like Foreman-Lyle.
If Frazier is still there in round 6 and in tact, then he has a pretty good chance of winning. If the fight is a shootout then Tyson will win, not because of character but because of his superior physical strength.
If Frazier is able to have Tyson on the deck that will be curtains for Tyson as he has no record of overcoming adversity. Frazier would be in trouble if Tyson was hitting him a lot as no one has ever been hit a lot and come back to beat Tyson.
@BruceinFalkirk We actually might be near agreement in thinking that if Tyson wins, he wins early, but if Frazier wins, he wins later. We differ in how we rate the chances of either happening. I will concede that both were good enough that if they fought 10 times, neither one shuts the other out. Having fun exchanging pleasantries with 1899sharkey? :)
@ogedei One possibly crucial point, how good are Frazier's uppercuts? Sharkey is an idiot. If any relatively recent fighter has so much as a scare in a fight, that means a 70's boxer would beat him in the opening round.
@BruceinFalkirk Don't know how good Frazier's uppercuts were. I'm sure he didn't throw many left uppercuts, it was mostly L hook head and body. Holyfield (vs Tyson I) really didn't throw many uppercuts either; he was effective with his left hook, and his right, which was in between an uppercut and a straight. He was especially effective counterpunching when Tyson missed or had his punch blocked, and showed no intimidation by being willing to trade with Tyson, & often got the last punch in.
@ogedei. Holyfield's power is rather underrated at this level. He didn't score an awful lot of knockouts but he was fighting generally men a lot bigger than himself. He wouldn't have been considered an especially small heavyweight in the 70's.
@ogedei I had a look at your previous comments, you made some excellent points. Your arguments for why Frazier beats Tyson are well articulated. But I'm afraid you wasted your time on BruceinFalkirk, he is a man who claims Tyson has a better chin than Frazier, a man who continually questions Frazier's toughness. A man who cites Tyson's "beating" to Douglas as reason for Tyson being tougher than Joe. Quite ridiculous! I enjoyed your very valid points on how Frazier wins. Your an intelligent man.
@XavierMarciano Thanx for the kind words; I was just trying to make logical and rational arguments instead of just arguing or name calling. I give BruceinFalkirk credit for not making any personal attacks on me and for being a boxing fan. I wish he gave more credit to Frazier and to the importance of psychological factors (e.g., persistence, determination, resilience in the face of adversity) in determining outcomes in sports. They're what often separate true greatness from near greatness.
Ogedei - one other thing, the men who beat Tyson all respected his power and with good reason. They all avoided taking too many punches and hit Tyson steadily, wearing him down.
Did Joe Frazier ever respect his opponent's power?
@BruceinFalkirk I'm sure the men who lost to Tyson "respected his power" too, so that alone isn't why Douglas and Holyfield beat Tyson. I think Frazier had enough "respect" for opponents' power that he didn't "wade in head first" but used a bob-and-weave still to avoid taking too many punches. I could easily envision a fight in which both Tyson and Frazier are knocked down, but only 1 keeps getting up. I could never imagine Tyson getting up 5 times if knocked down by a prime Foreman.
To get Tyson down in the first place, you have to hit him a lot and if you do that, he's finished. In the case of Foreman, he avoided him altogether and if he had been around in the 70's, Cus D'Amato would have kept him away from Big George.
Frazier's entire style depended on him being able to take his opponent's punches in the early rounds. Tyson's style was to avoid the other man's punches and he was good at doing that. When he stopped doing that, he became much more beatable
@BruceinFalkirk Methinks you're straying from analysis to generalities: with most boxers, "you have to hit him a lot and if you do that, he's finished." With most boxers, the idea is to "avoid the other man's punches." Not sure how Tyson avoids Frazier's punches, when Ali, in their first fight, with faster hands, faster feet, faster head, longer reach, taller height (than Tyson), couldn't. True, Frazier gets hit by Tyson too, but bob-and-weave can blunt the power; whose chin's stronger?
Undoubtedly, Tyson's chin is stronger. He survived a load of huge one-punch hits from Razor Ruddock. One big punch was never the way to beat him, the way to do it was to hit him a lot.
Frazier was the reverse, he wasn't the kind you could wear down, as such. Even in Manila, he was never of his feet and the fight was stopped when he couldn't see any more. He was vulnerable to really big punchers.
@BruceinFalkirk If the ONLY person to knock you out in the ring is one of the hardest punching, greatest heavyweights who lived, that doesn't prove you are "vulnerable to really big punchers" If your record includes being knocked out by Douglas, Holyfield, and Lewis, that weakens your argument about Tyson's "stronger" chin. Frazier would hit Tyson a lot (just as a 34-year-old Holyfield did); Frazier would get hit as well, but would show greater resilience, response to adversity, character.
@ogedei Frazier was decked by Oscar Bonavena and Mike Bruce and nearly decked in round 2 against Ali.
Douglas and Lewis are huge men, much bigger hitters than Frazier and Holyfield is no powder-puff hitter, before the Tyson fight, he was the first man to drop Ray Mercer and Riddick Bowe.
Douglas and Lewis also didn't deck Tyson with just one punch. I add again that Razor Ruddock hit Tyson with a lot of huge single punches and didn't have him down.
@BruceinFalkirk I guess it shows "toughness" by Frazier to be decked early and come back to win. Just as biting an ear in a boxing match betrays a lack of toughness. Being a big hitter is no guarantee of success (cf Ernie Shavers). Frazier wouldn't need to deck Tyson with one punch, just keep throwing combos (esp. L hood head, then L hook body). Again, how does Tyson avoid Frazier's punches when Ali couldn't? And Frazier is "no powder-puff hitter," his L hook was consensus devastating.
@ogedei This devastating puncher, Frazier, failed to KO Joe Bugner and, indeed, only narrowly beat him. Tyson is a different target to Ali and Ali was famously open to a left hook, just look at Henry Cooper.
Frazier's left hook was devastating against actual cruiserweights such as Jerry Quarry, Jimmy Ellis and, er, Dave Zyglewicz.
@BruceinFalkirk Tyson had 44 KO's in 58 fights (76%); Frazier had 27 in 37 (73%); Holyfield had 29 in 57 (51%); it's better to look at overall stats than to cherrypick: I could say that "this devastating puncher," Tyson, failed to KO James "Quick" Tillis, whose record was 42-22-1, but that would be cherrypicking. Tyson is a different target than Ali - shorter, easier for Frazier to get to. If a 34-year-old Holyfield knocks down Tyson with a left hook (6th round), why doesn't Frazier?
I am not a Tyson fanboy but you are a Joe Frazier fan boy. I detailed how the fighters who ACTUALLY BEAT MIKE TYSON did so and none of them did so by wading in face first.
As for losing to all time greats, how many atgs did Joe Frazier actually face in the ring? Hmm. Yes, 2 of them.
@BruceinFalkirk Frazier's style is "bob and weave," which is not the same as "wading in face first." You underestimate how much of Tyson's effectiveness hinged on his power of intimidation. One can argue that Douglas and Holyfield beat Tyson not simply because of their boxing styles, but because of their refusal to be intimidated. Only person who intimidates Smokin' Joe Frazier is his momma! The psyche is important in athletics!
I have a book on Tyson-Douglas and Holyfield's own book. In both fights, the gameplan was all-important. Neither man stood in front of Tyson. There was a big guy who could stand in front of Tyson and beat him. I know who he is, you know who he is and, more importantly, Tyson knew who he was.
Frazier was a well-documented slow starter. It took him a few rounds to get his rhythm going before he bobbed and weaved effectively so he really was going in face first.
Not all Tyson's victims were intimidated by him, it has to be said. Smokin Joe was never intimated by anyone, you're right, but that alone is no guarantee of winning in boxing.
@BruceinFalkirk Being a "slow starter" is no guarantee of losing in boxing. Intimidation was a big factor with Tyson's effectiveness. Also, Tyson's psyche did not seem equipped to handle adversity nearly as well as Joe Frazier's. The fight would probably be fought in close; Tyson wouldn't be able to keep Joe off him with the jab, as Ali did, nor keep Joe off him by pushing him off, as Foreman did. Were Frazier knocked down, he'd get back up, undeterred, but Tyson might be mentally broken
Being a slow starter against Mike Tyson when you're the same height and reach, roughly, as him is going to spell trouble.
Intimidation isn't necessary in this case. Frazier is going to be backed up by Tyson's much bigger punch. Ali didn't keep Frazier off with the jab when the fight got past the early rounds. Frazier fights like Monty Python's black knight and the way to break Tyson mentally is to avoid his punches, something that Frazier wouldn't do.
@BruceinFalkirk Not convinced that Frazier was that slow a starter: in his first 30 fights (the 30th was his KO by Foreman), 10 ended within 2 rounds, 6 ended within 4, and 6 ended within 6 rounds. I think both would land punches, but Frazier would be undeterred. Douglas didn't really avoid Tyson's punches (he was 1/2 second from being KO'd himself), but he came back unintimidated. Joe had the character to respond to adversity; Tyson not so much. Frazier fights like Monty Python's rabbit
@ogedei - Tyson -Douglas. Douglas took only one good punch from Tyson, the one that decked him and even then. he was awake and listening to the count when down.
As for adversity, Joe Frazier was undoubtedly better at handing it than Mike Tyson was. The problem being that he wouldn't have faced any adversary against Joe Frazier.
I have a number of Frazier fights on tape and dvd and I can see he always started slowly both in fights he won and fights he lost.
@BruceinFalkirk Perhaps the number of Frazier fights you have on tape and dvd do not include the 16 of the first 30 that ended within 4 rounds. Don't know how you could argue that Tyson wouldn't have faced "any" adversity against Frazier - how many high pressure, bob-and-weave, deadly left hook, only lost to 2 all time greats, fighters did Tyson face? It's not WHETHER either fighter would have faced adversity, it's HOW they would have handled it. 1 gets off the canvas, 1 bites ears.
@BruceinFalkirk Which Ellis fight - the one in which he lost in 5 rounds, or 9? Again, how many bob-and-weave, vicious left-hook (head and body), unable to be intimidated, boxers did Tyson face? In a golden era of heavyweights, how many non-all-time great fighters did Frazier lose to?
The first Ellis fight. How many fighters did Joe Frazier face who were roughly his height and reach with a much bigger punch and better chin, who nearly always made a good start and were very fast? Was Frazier faster than a young Tyson?
As for all-time greats, how many all-time greats did Joe Frazier face in the ring?
@BruceinFalkirk - You're an idiot,face it Mr.Sow starter. It took a prime Foreman to dent a well past his prime Frazier.You can rest ASSURED that the tinman would have only went down once against George, he had about 1% of the guts Frazier had.
I looked at the Mathis -Frazier clip and there you are with your double standard again. Apparently Buster Mathis was a great fighter, unlucky to be around at the time of Joe Frazier but Tony Tubbs was a bum and that's why he lost to Mike Tyson.
No need to say anything further to you, your double standards are there for all to see.
@BruceinFalkirk Now you're learning. Mathis was a level or two ahead of cokehead Tony. See, you might not understand this but cocaine takes a lot out of a fighter
@1899sharkey Strange that Tubbs won the first round against Tyson and had never been stopped before his fight but then you are never one to let facts get in the way of an argument.
You're right. Any man who holds a narrow points win over Joe Bugner would surely massacre Tyson, Lewis and Holyfield.
Holyfield has a glass jaw, Tyson and Lewis can't punch, Tyson is rubbish anyway, worse than Bert Cooper, Joe Calzaghe is a middleweight, despite the fact that he would have had to saw of a bodypart to make the weight and a points win over Joe Bugner proves that you are a lethal puncher.
@BruceinFalkirk -You're not only a joke, but i'm starting to think you're borderline retarded. You said calzaghe would beat Hagler, and then acted like it was a trick question because he was a super middleweiht and Marvin was a middle. Youre clearly out of your league trying to discuss boxing,dont bother correcting my spelling I know I left the(g) out of middleweight. Keep bringing up fights that Frazier WON, while I watch the tinman get brutally k.o.d by clubfighters.Slow starter..Lmao
@1899sharkey Afraid not. I said you were so ignorant that you think Hagler would beat Calzaghe and I was right, you did. In fact, they would never meet in the ring, even with a time machine since they fought in different divisions.
Frazier was not a slow starter despite all the footage showing making a slow start, the writers who saw him fight describing him as a slow starter and the commentator Don Dunphy saying so, having watched him fight.
@BruceinFalkirk - You're obviously a mental case. Calzaghe and Hagler could never meet in the ring, so we cant predict who would win a hypothetical fight between them, but we can Frazier v Tyson? Youre more stupid than i thought!
@1899sharkey Frazier and Tyson fought in the same division, dickhead. Nobody tougher than Frazier? How about Ali?
Ali took punches from Big George that had him bleeding for days and was never off his feet and then he came back to win. Ali also defeated punchers Ron Lyle and Earnie Shavers, good going for a man who was getting old. He was never off his feet against Ken Norton, despite his wafer-thin winning margin.
How did Frazier do? He lost by massacre to the first and avoided the others.
@BruceinFalkirk - Are you actually saying that a middleweight couldn't fight a supermiddleweight? You dont even understand what "toughness" means. Frazier was on his feet when the Foreman fight was stopped, do you think the tinman or Holyfield would of got up six times vs. George? The Calzaghe comment you originally made proves you're retarded! Go play your video games Brucie. Why did your hero start eating Holy? He wanted the fuck outa that ring. What a cowardly way to quit.
@1899sharkey Hagler weighed in on the day of the fight, Calzaghe the day before and he entered the ring at about 180lbs. They could never meet, you idiot, especially as Hagler never fought at all outside of middleweight.
Would of? Holyfield wouldn't be on the deck 6 times. Angelo Dundee, Foreman's trainer, reckons that the punches Holyfield hit old George with would have decked young George. He presumably knows nothing and the correct phrase is 'would have'.
@BruceinFalkirk - Explain yourself on your retarded Calzaghe comment brucie. Are you that stupid that you think guys in different weight classes cant fight each other? I have to know if you're really mentally impaired.
Let's see. Hagler expressed no interest whatsoever in fighting anywhere other than at middleweight. Given that the weighing-in rules have changed since Hagler's day, Calzaghe is, in fact, 2 weight divisions above Hagler so the fight would not happen, even with a time machine.
Hagler vs Mike McCallum is a fight that could happen McCallum fought in Hagler's division for some of his career but this will probably take you several years to work out as you're not very bright.
@BruceinFalkirk dude I see where you are coming from but how many PRIME hall of famers did tyson beat...old larry holmes, michael spinks( great light heavy), he beat berbick, bruno pinkerton, all those good but not legendary.
@LLB9977 George Chuvalo originally "jure Cuvalo" (which is a croatian first and surname)is a son of croatian immigrants ! 100 percent croatian blood ! Its the blood not the passport that matters !
@Becarusa blood means nothing, its all about the streets you walked. Toronto born & raised. the man barely even speaks croat. & has probably never spent any significant time there.
Joe Frazier v Marciano at peak would have been a slug fest for the ages ,, rip big guy I hope you two are up there showing off the best right hook/left hook ever ha
It just seemed like the quality and passion was never there again with Frazier in the rest of his career after the first fight against Ali. Even the much hyped up Thrilla In Manilla over 4 and a half years later. Frazier hated draft dodger Ali backing out on his fellow country men way more than Foreman or anyone else.
Frazier was never the same after March 8th 1971. Went to the hospital to stay there for one month. Almost died while there. Even though he won the fight against Ali, he never was the same in his career after that night. Like the best of him was taken out of him after that fight. Does anyone notice the difference of Frazier's effectiveness in his fights after March 8th 1971 as compared to all his fights before March 8th 1971 and including that fight???
Draft dodger or man who follows his own conscience? Perhaps he felt that the US had neither the right or the competency to decide--at gunpoint--how another people should organize their own society. Furthermore, a "blow horn" is one who talks the talk but cannot back it up which hardly applied to Ali.
Chickenshit big mouth Muhammed Ali was so afraid of George Foreman he kept trying to delay fighting against him by having the fight match cancelled for a later date in 1974.
George Foreman in his Prime the Greatest Heavyweight Boxer Ever. And I'm a Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano Fan. George Foreman said George Chuvalo had the hardest solid iron head of any boxer he ever faced.
Two of the bravest guys ever to lace on a pair of gloves. Serious respect to them both. RIP to Smoking Joe. Some happiness to George Chuvalo. May their gods keep them. Legends who earned that staus the haedest way of all.
Joe was such a slow starter ... thats why he went thru a golden era of heavys and was undefeated after dominating Ali in "71. The man gets k.o.d by one of historys greatest hitters and all of a sudden anyone who starts out fast is gonna k.o. him! lol.Frazier(71) would eat the tin man for breakfast.
Afraid not but then you never let the facts get in the way of an argument. I have Frazier on tape making an awful start against the less than earthshattering Jimmy Ellis but somehow he'll get away with that against Mike Tyson.
@BruceinFalkirk - Joe was a slow starter... Joe was a slow starter...Joe was a slow starter... Tyson in his prime... Tyson in his prime... Tyson in his prime... HaHaHa... you are a fuckin joke and everyone on youtube knows it.
I can't even comprehend how much pain Chuvalo must have been in. This guy took so many hard shots, and you hear him today, he has no slur in his voice and came out of the fight game in good shape. Tough, tough guy, and seems very likable.
You gotta love these Tyson fanboys who claim " Tyson was ferocious early" How about not so early? Because if you sniffers think that shit he put on those novices would have worked against great fighters You're even more retarded than I thought.Tin man was a creation of Jim Jacbs who wanted to create another Dempsey, but lo and behold he couldn't give the tin man a heart.Everything about the tinman is way overated,especially his "vaunted" power.Tinman knows he couldn't stay with the greats.
When the bully cannot intimidate, he becomes intimidated. Tyson was a punk who should not be mentioned in the same breath as the atg heavys.Frazier got knocked down 6 x by George cause he KEPT getting up for more.Can anyone that is sane say that the tinman would of got off the floor against George. Bonavena would kick the cowars ass all the way back to Brownsville.
@1899sharkey Sharkey this guys is clearly a blind tyson fan, I was going to go down the road of insulting him but decided to try and reason with the man. I hope he will see my valid points and open his small mind to why frazier beats tyson. Honestly it does annoy me when people see tyson bowl over bums and past their best fighters and act like he was a god. He beat average fighters at best, he did it in impressive fashion but they were average, too often that's forgotten. I hope he realises this
@XavierMarciano - Some guys are bliss in their ignorance. Frazier beats Tyson cause the tinman folds like a cheap tent against even good heavys. Guys who've never been near a ring dont understand things you cant see, like intestinal fortitude.Anyone who says you dont need heart to beat Joe is a complete moron. He's just a highlight reel watcher and a repeater of what he hears other Tyson rectum sniffers say.He keeps repeating, "styles make fights" like thats the only thing that matters.
Nothing blind about me. I know Tyson's strengths and weaknesses and simply getting of the canvas when he knocks you over is not enough to beat him.
Strangely enough, what I do with boxers is watch HOW THEY ACTUALLY LOST and draw conclusions from that. To beat Tyson, you avoid his punches and keep hitting him. Charge in face first and he'll take your head off. Simples.
Anyway, Sharkey, I've got you on block user so I won't be notified of your fouled-mouthed idiocy that assumes because one fighter beats another, he must beat yet another and your complete ignorance of styles making fights.
Your other arguments are along the lines of 'when fighter A wins, it doesn't count' and 'when fighter B loses, it doesn't count' so get it right up you.
@BruceinFalkirk - Tell us how a relic, a man 20 YEARS PAST HIS PRIME... i'll repeat that.. 20 YEARS PAST HIS PRIME, almost beats Holy? Massacre? wtf do you think George at 25 would have did to holy? As far as your hero Tyson goes, he Ducked a 44 y.o. George. Your heros were barely good enough to beat a relic from the 70's.
@BruceinFalkirk One thing you have right is that tyson was a bully, and what happens when a bully is stood up to? They shatter!! Even great bullys like Foreman when he was stood up to by a past prime Ali, or Shavers being stood up to by Jerry Quarry, or Tyson being stood up to by Douglas. Bullies always cave when stood up to. That's why Frazier wins, Frazier is a mile wide and a mile deep. Tyson is a mile wide and an inch deep. If you can't see why tyson loses your just a blind fan of his.
Frazier stand up to Tyson? He never makes a good start and is easy to hit and the way to beat a bully is to make him take your punches, not ram your own face into his.
Frazier has the courage to beat Tyson but not the style so you are the fanboy. I know Tyson's strengths and weaknesses, you refuse to acknowledge Frazier's.
Tyson was 39 and should have retired years before. How good was Frazier at 39? Oh no, Joe had retired after being gifted a draw against Floyd Jumbo Cummings when he was 37. I'm using your own rubbish arguments against you, Marciano.
I also add that Mike Tyson was actually quite difficult to hit in his prime, something that was never true of Frazier so tell em exactly what Frazier was going to beat Tyson with? His face?
Joe was never anything but a slugger. He made up for his limitations with his heart and unrelenting will. Watch some of Joe's fights and notice that he is never on the retreat, always pressuring forward. Truly, Joe did not possess the KO power of todays heavyweights, simply because he ain't as heavy. Still doesn't change the fact that the boxers of old were mentally tougher than most heavyweights of today, regardless of their skills and athleticism.
Got quite a few of his fights on tape and DVD. Joe was king of the hill and deservedly so but he wouldn't beat the big hitters of recent years because he was too small.
Boxing has divisions for a reason and Joe would be a cruiserweight, if he was around today and would be king of the hill in that division.
As for heavyweights of yesteryear, Bob Fitzimmons and Tommy Burns would be supermiddleweights, Gene Tunney, Jack Dempsey, Rocky Marciano and Ezzard Charles would be cruiserweights after 1979 and some others could make 200lbs today and be cruiserweights without weakening themselves so it's no disgrace to say that these guys would not beat the superheavyweights of recent years. Size does count for something in boxing, after all.
It does indeed. Still, I am lead to believe that many of todays superheavies would have been exposed by a number of the heavyweight champions of old. With the only advantage being superior weight, I don't see any present top contenders being able offer resistance against even someone like Joe Louis, who usually weighed around 200lbs and still put far heavier opponents to sleep. Superior weight is no match against superior speed and skill, especially in the case of Joe Louis.
True Joe Louis has a record of knocking over bigger men. His game, as it were, depended on avoiding the other man's punches and not wading in face-first unlike some bozos I've seen.
Which is also why someone like Jack Dempsey - a man who broke ribs, jaws and facial bones on poor Jess Willard - would fare well against todays standard heavyweights, simply because he was all over the place, throwing punches from so many different angles. In Jack's case, I have my money on him rather than some blown-up present heavyweight contender.
@BruceinFalkirk Nice how you dodged my point of how bullies cave!! By your logic a fighter like Quarry should have never been able to beat Shavers and Ron Lyle, but he did. What excuses have you for that? Sick of fanboys of Tyson making excuses for him. Tyson also ducked 40+ Foreman, or do you have some excuse for that? At least Holyfield manned up and fought Foreman, Tyson ran scared!!
@BruceinFalkirk Joe a slow starter, is but a myth. He got caught cold against Bonavena in their first fight, the only time he ever started "slow" but he went on to beat bonavena and again in the rematch. The only fights he lost was to two of the greatest fighters ever. Stop overating Tyson, not a single boxing expert rates Tyson in the top 10. Espn and Ring don't rate Tyson in the top 10, and never will. But you Tyson fanboys no more than the experts, you fanboys no more than Dundee and Arcel?
@BruceinFalkirk I'm tired of wasting my time on you now. You ducked my points of how, Tyson lost to the best fighters he ever faced, how Mike never beat a great fighter, Mike lost to very average men like douglas and mcbride, how bullies even great bullies like Foreman, Tyson, Shavers always cave when stood up to, how Mike ducked 40+ Foreman. Sick of you spouting the same crap like all the other Tyson dickriders and ducking my points. Ali, Louis, Dempsey, Marciano, Liston, Foreman etc beat Tyson
Duck the points? You're the one noting that Tyson lost to McBride. Tyson was also 39 when he lost to McBride. Using your own argument, does that mean that Frazier's draw with Jumbo Cummings is relevant?
As for Douglas, I detailed how Douglas beat Tyson and you completely ignored that. The fact that you deride me as a dickrider when I am nothing of the kind shows that you know you have lost.
And Marciano is far too small to beat Tyson so sod off.
I n the book 'Boxing's hall of shame' a 30's heavyweight called Jack Doyle (no, I've never heard of him either) commented that 70's heavyweights were not the calibre of Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano and reckoned he could have knocked Muhammad Ali out with one punch and the same with Joe Frazier. Compare this to the old farts disease displayed by Sharkey and you'll see nothing changes about boxing, only the names and years.
cont - Tyson had one punch power against genuinely big heavyweights. Joe Frazier needed to wear down cruiserweights like Jerry Quarry and the fat Buster Mathis.
The WBA elimination tournament was said by Teddy Brenner to have eliminated all 8 men but it's somehow an achievement for Frazier to ko both finalists.
Let's look at Tyson-Douglas. 6 foot 4, 230 lb Douglas boxed and moved against Tyson, using his huge size and reach and made a good start. It's well documented that Douglas had a smart gameplan for the fight. He beat Tyson by avoiding his punches.
Joe Frazier never makes a good start, walks straight forward, regardless of opponent and his entire style depends on taking the other man's punches.
None of this will work against Mike Tyson who has one punch power cont
Buster Douglas was a clubfighter before he fought the tin man and a clubfighter after he brutally k.o.d the tin man. Mike Tyson got his in prime ass handed to him by a clubfighter. Holyfield was nearly k.o.d by fuckin Bert Cooper! Cooper was about 5% of the fighter Frazier was. Brucein falkirk needs to change his name to pussyinfalkirk.
No analysis of style from sharkey. So because a 6 ft 4 inch 230lb man boxed and moved against Mike Tyson, Monty Python's black knight will do the same.
Holyfield gave Bert Cooper a kicking in the rest of the fight.
Sharkey needs to learn the meaning of words and rational argument and stop being a retard.
I think Chuvalo was never floored in his career, and his ability to take a punch was superhuman. He wasn't the most skilled heavyweight out there, but he was a rugged, tough SOB. What a lineup of terrific heavyweights in the late 60's-early 70's: Ali, Liston, Patterson, Frazier, Foreman, Mac Foster, Jerry Quarry, Oscar Bonavena, Ernie Terrell, Leotis Martin, Bugner, Shavers, Ron Lyle. Chuvalo fought most of them. Only Frazier and Foreman whupped him. Still an intelligent man to this day.
@ForeverYoung58 well said friend,i get so tired of George not recieving proper credit,its flat stupid what most of the uninformed think of him.thank u.
One other thing i like about Chuvalo is he gives us a look at how Jeffries looked physically. They are very similar sizewise and both could take heavy punishment.and not hardly wince.
" Ali barely trained for 1st fight with Frazier"... totally false. Ali " fooled" around because he couldn't do anything else. Volume on or off , Joe dominated winning at least 10 rounds. Ali was digging in and throwing hard punches in first 3 rds.because he knew he wasn't gonna be able to handle the pace. NO version of Ali in his 2nd career would beat Joe on that march nite in '71. Where do you get that the crowd was one sided for Joe? Of couse the k.d. played a role, it won the rd. for Joe.
1899sharkey 5 days ago
@1899sharkey
If joe dominated why did he end up in the hospital for 2 weeks after the fight with a twisted jaw and injuries to his internal organs? Look at their faces after the fight, clearly frazier took a lot of punches.
Triangulove 1 day ago
@Triangulove - Twisted jaw? injuries to his internal organs? lmao... Did Joe get his internal organ injuries from Ali's blistering body attack? I seem to remember Ali had the "twisted" jaw. Newsflash... Judges dont award fights on the looks of the fighters after the fight. Do some research... Joe went to the hosp. for exhaustion, which he got by handing out one serious ass whipping.
1899sharkey 1 day ago
@1899sharkey
He did suffer a jaw injury toward the end of the fight, as did ali. Joes entire left jaw area was welted, and he was nearly blind in one eye. I am not saying ali won the fight, but he landed a lot of punches, and it showed on joes face afterwards.
Triangulove 10 hours ago
@Triangulove - I hate not to agree with you but Frazier suffered no jaw injuries. His face was a mask of lumps especially over the eyes. Ali did land a lot of punches but this was not scored by amateur rules(a jab counts as much as a powerful hook). Joe dominated this fight by all accounts, almosy knocking Ali out in the 11th.
1899sharkey 3 hours ago
Chuvalo would get a beating like no other man. And he kept coming after you
BigDumbJerk 5 days ago
I n '74 Joe was lucky to be 50% of the fighter he was in '71. The Ali that beat Joe in '74 wouldn't have come close to beating a '71 Frazier. Ali wasn't at his best in'71 but he was a lot closer to his prime than Joe was in '74.
1899sharkey 1 week ago
@1899sharkey Ali barely trained for his first fight against joe frazier and fooled around. But you have a point frazier of 71 was a machine and very hard to stop but If you actually score the 71 fight by turning off the volume. You'll see that Ali won more round than frazier. The crowed and judges that night were in support of frazier and that knock down played a role too. Otherwise In my mind Ali won the fight.
324582782 5 days ago
@324582782 Ali himself said he lost the fight, get over it. Joe hurt Ali almost every round.
blite13 1 day ago
@blite13 ali was being humble
324582782 1 day ago
@324582782 Yeah, sure, everyone but you knows Joe won the 1st fight.
blite13 1 day ago
Chuvalo EASILY went 15 w/ Clay in 66'. No bloody mess - Chuvalo simply was outpointed. A year later Chuvalo fights Frazier. First (and last) time Chuvalo ever STOPPED...4th RD. TKO. I laugh at the Ali-Superfans who say a "prime" Ali would've beat a "prime" Frazier. Check Joe's power v. Chuvalo compared to how Ali fared year earlier.
3244gorilla 1 month ago
@3244gorilla
Chuvalo was stopped by Foreman 3 years later in 3 rounds. Foreman dazed him and pounded him in the corner until the ref stopped the bout. Frazier was a hurtful puncher, even tough Jerry Quarry could not go further than 7 rds in their first bout due to cuts, and 5 rds in the second bout by overwhelming force, simply. Although not a true KO artist, Joe's punches were hard enough for most people to just fall over at some point. Way of a true pressure fighter.
MrRoyalFatness 4 weeks ago
@3244gorilla A prime Joe Frazier did beat a prime Ali in 1971 Madison Square garden. You could also say that Frazier would of beaten Ali in Manilla if it wasn't for his trainer pulling him out at the end of the 14th round. Frazier, in his corner wanted to fight, but Ali in his wanted to give up and if Frazier's trainer had waited about half a minute more then Frazier would have won. Frazier's 2 defeats to Foreman don't reflect his skill at all. RIP the Legend Smokin' Joe.
TheFakeAssGangsta1 2 weeks ago
@TheFakeAssGangsta1 Wrong, Ali was coming off a 3+year layoff. Thee is no way that is his prime.
Wrong again. Ali won in Manilla and Frazier was a hollow shell after 14. What is he gonna do in 15 that he could not do min the first 44?
I love Smokin too, but Ali 63 to 67 is the man.
finerbiner 1 week ago
@finerbiner A bigger and stronger Ali was in '71. He was lighter and faster in 60's. In '71, Joe could move around a ring just as fast as Ali, Ali couldn't handle how strong Joe was in '71, why would Ali be able to handle Joe's strength when he himself was not as strong in the 60's? Ali would have been forced into fighting Joe, no matter what year it was. In '71, Ali never beats Joe.
blite13 1 day ago
@blite13 - Thats the point that Ali's rabid fans cant digest. While he had lost some speed during his layoff, he also physically matured and was much stronger in '71 than in '67.
1899sharkey 1 day ago
@1899sharkey Bigger and stronger are not the same as better. When Ali beat Liston was he bigger and stronger than him? What is not believable is that Ali would hone his craft for a decade, to the point of becoming the worlds clear best, take 3.5 yrs off and come back better. The returning Ali showed the world how tough he was, but he was not better.
finerbiner 22 hours ago
@finerbiner - You're right. He wasn't a better fighter but he was a little stronger. I've never said that a '71 Joe would beat a '67 Ali, only that it would be a great fight.
1899sharkey 22 hours ago
@3244gorilla Ali was also pissing blood for a while after his fight with George in '66. Ali had to go to the hospital after that fight.
blite13 1 day ago
@3244gorilla Any person who thinks that the this person only beat that person and another beat them more stuff can not be taken seriously. It has exactly zero value in predicting anything. It is plain DUMB.
finerbiner 21 hours ago
yep, and just like always people forget Croatians and just shun them and many other legends btw, and still everyone thinks that Ali is the best. No, George Chuvalo was the BEST!!! And all Croatians and smart people know it
brothachiken023 1 month ago
@brothachiken023 how the fuck was george chuvalo the best? I respect him and he was a great fighter, but he wasn't the best, not even close.
NathanStormrage 1 month ago
the key point in this fight was the stamina, frazier had super stamina, if you watch the first moments, chuvalo was stronger than frazier, he pushed back frazier without problems, but frazier dominated him later because he had better stamina, and his pressure was lethal
combatesdeboxeo 1 month ago
chuvalo was a complete animal, he was a compact 214-220 pounder of solid frame, foreman(an animal) said that chuvalo was strong like hell.
combatesdeboxeo 1 month ago
@combatesdeboxeo I didn't know chuvalo till I watched "Facing Ali" and yeah , he was very strong, damn he fought Frazier, Ali and Foreman... Boxing at that era of hw was hard as hell
chamanista 1 month ago
Joe's a true warrior. I love this quality man. Joe didn't have an evil bone in his body. A real gentleman also. Rest in Peace brother. maurice
PIANOBYMAURICE 1 month ago
Comment removed
PIANOBYMAURICE 1 month ago
Apparently toughness is not facing the best punchers around and taking a punch and staying on your feet but it is avoiding noted punchers bar one huge guy who decks you at will and you are tough if you get up.
Hmm
BruceinFalkirk 2 months ago
@BruceinFalkirk - Everybodys laughing at you Brucie!!! That Calzaghe comment even has the grandkids rolling over. Go home little boy.
1899sharkey 2 months ago
@1899sharkey. Yes indeed. Given that Calzaghe is a lot bigger than Hagler, somehow the rules of boxing don't apply. Calzaghe did enter the ring at about 180lbs while Hagler entered at just over 160 so they would never ever meet.
BTW Joe Frazier has random, ridiculously low percentage, plucked from thin air percentage of the punch resistance of Evander Holyfield.
If you don't shut up, I'll get Frank Bruno to you, Joe Bugner.
BruceinFalkirk 2 months ago
Frazier over the tinman when Mikey stays on his stool at the end of the fifth round.
1899sharkey 2 months ago
@1899sharkey Ah, so speaks the man who commented on Ellis-Frazier and ignored the fact that the commentator noted that Ellis had been in command for 2.5 rounds, Frazier having made a slow start.
Given that Tyson didn't lose a fight before the 5th round until he was 38, that means Frazier will have to be fitted with an iron head and hands to survive that long and win since his defence is woeful in the early rounds and he never makes a good start.
BruceinFalkirk 2 months ago
@BruceinFalkirk - Hey Mr. spellcheck english proffessor, Tyson didn't lose a fight before the 5th round until he was 38? What about the fight where he panicked and started eating Holy? Rolmao
1899sharkey 2 months ago
@1899sharkey
Dear oh dear. Tyson, according to you, has less punch, less skill and less punch resistance than Joe Bugner.
There is only one explanation: You are Joe Bugner and you are so punchdrunk, you don't know you are Joe Bugner.
While you're at it, please learn the difference between a TKO and a disqualification.
BruceinFalkirk 2 months ago
Tougher than Joe Frazier? That comment alone proves that bruceinfuckirk is an idiot. NOBODY was tougher than Frazier,very few were just as tough, but NOBODY tougher. Tyson is about six levels below the Ali, Foreman and Fraziers, just an overhyped creation of Jim Jacobs who failed miserably everytime he fought a real fighter.Did that idiot actually sayTinman would beat Ali "cause Ali is open to the left hook" Unfuckinbelievable!
1899sharkey 2 months ago
@1899sharkey
Nope, didn't say that Tyson would beat Ali. Joe Frazier is Robocop, Superman, the Incredible Hulk and James Bond put together.
Frazier is brilliant because he only lost to all-time greats. Ali lost to Leon Spinks and Ken Norton and, in fact, only narrowly beat Norton at best and even Ali thinks he lost the third fight. That makes Ali useless.
Ali was also nearly KO'd by Henry Cooper which also makes him useless. and other incoherent rubbish that follows from what you wrote
BruceinFalkirk 2 months ago
If Frazier was going to beat Tyson, he was going to have to make round 4 or 5 completely unhurt. When he got going, Frazier was difficult to hit and a much different proposition. Then, having done so, he would be able to hit Tyson steadily and beat him on points or by a late-round stoppage.
Tyson, however, was a lot stronger physically than Frazier. I just do not see how Frazier is going to be able to take Tyson's punches as he can't avoid them like Douglas, Holyfield and Lewis did.
BruceinFalkirk 2 months ago
@BruceinFalkirk Just rewatched Tyson-Holyfield I (Japanese commentary, o well). Holyfield was 34 and a big underdog. I don't think he won by "avoiding" Tyson's punches, Tyson did land several. But Holyfield showed no fear, didn't back up (pushed Tyson to the ropes a lot), did not rely on his jab, but did a lot of counterpunching with power shots in combination. His best punch probably his right, (a kinda half straight, half uppercut), but he knocked down Tyson in rnd 6 with a Left Hook.
ogedei 2 months ago
@ogedei Holyfield was only taking one shot at a time and his toughness is a lot better than Joe Frazier's. His upper body strength is also a lot better than Joe Frazier's and Holyfield's chin can take the shots from an admittedly old George Foreman but that old George would still have eaten Joe Frazier for breakfast.
BruceinFalkirk 2 months ago
@BruceinFalkirk I think you underrate Joe Frazier's toughness; where's the evidence that Holyfield's is a lot better? Actually, they may be equally tough, but both would be well above Tyson (I'm talking mental toughness, resilience, response to adversity). Maybe Holyfield was "taking one shot at a time" because Tyson couldn't adapt to an infighting, unintimidated, combination throwing, skilled fighter, whose best punch might be his left hook and who was a natural cruiserweight.
ogedei 2 months ago
@ogedei - Holyfield's toughness, I rate above Frazier's because he was nearly always the smaller man in the ring, often giving away a lot of weight.
Holyfield was taking one shot because Tyson was only throwing one shot. He was also 215lbs for his Tyson fight and had fought at heavyweight for 8 years. He moved up to heavyweight in 1988 because he had to starve himself to make the weight.
He was no more a natural cruiser than a 30 year old Thomas Hearns was a natural welterweight.
BruceinFalkirk 2 months ago
@BruceinFalkirk - I've figured it out. You were Tinmans cellmate in Indy that he talks about so fondly. You still FEEL that connection after all these years.
1899sharkey 2 months ago
@1899sharkey
I figured out that you know about jail sex from personal experience. When any 70's fighter goes down, he 'got up to win' but Holyfield's brief knockdown means that he was almost KO'd. Lewis's defeats mean that he is useless and anyone he beat is also useless even though Lewis beat everyone he ever faced, if not always the first time.
BruceinFalkirk 2 months ago
@BruceinFalkirk Holyfield was damn tough, that's for sure; we could argue all day whether he or Frazier was tougher, but most would agree that they are very close in toughness, and BOTH are well above Tyson. If you rewatch Tyson-Holyfield I, you'd be hard pressed to argue that Tyson was only throwing one shot; he was perhaps just connecting with one shot, but he tried to throw more than one shot. It's just that Holyfield didn't back down, and counterpunched very effectively.
ogedei 2 months ago
@ogedei
One other thing. Holyfield had a shootout with Tyson when they were both amateurs, handy experience for later as the Real Deal held his own. It's also one thing to not be intimidated before you get in the ring, it's another to still not be intimidated after your opponent has hit you.
BruceinFalkirk 2 months ago
@BruceinFalkirk Frazier wouldn't be intimidated before he gets in the ring or after he gets hit or even knocked down. Harder to argue that Tyson would be unaffected if he gets hit or knocked down; some argue that he was only a front-runner. I'm not sure about that, but it's hard to make the case that Tyson handled adversity when faced with good fighters. I think Tyson tests Frazier's chin, but Frazier tests Tyson's character in a match where both get hit hard. It could be like Foreman-Lyle.
ogedei 2 months ago
@ogedei
If Frazier is still there in round 6 and in tact, then he has a pretty good chance of winning. If the fight is a shootout then Tyson will win, not because of character but because of his superior physical strength.
If Frazier is able to have Tyson on the deck that will be curtains for Tyson as he has no record of overcoming adversity. Frazier would be in trouble if Tyson was hitting him a lot as no one has ever been hit a lot and come back to beat Tyson.
BruceinFalkirk 2 months ago
@BruceinFalkirk We actually might be near agreement in thinking that if Tyson wins, he wins early, but if Frazier wins, he wins later. We differ in how we rate the chances of either happening. I will concede that both were good enough that if they fought 10 times, neither one shuts the other out. Having fun exchanging pleasantries with 1899sharkey? :)
ogedei 2 months ago
@ogedei One possibly crucial point, how good are Frazier's uppercuts? Sharkey is an idiot. If any relatively recent fighter has so much as a scare in a fight, that means a 70's boxer would beat him in the opening round.
BruceinFalkirk 2 months ago
@BruceinFalkirk Don't know how good Frazier's uppercuts were. I'm sure he didn't throw many left uppercuts, it was mostly L hook head and body. Holyfield (vs Tyson I) really didn't throw many uppercuts either; he was effective with his left hook, and his right, which was in between an uppercut and a straight. He was especially effective counterpunching when Tyson missed or had his punch blocked, and showed no intimidation by being willing to trade with Tyson, & often got the last punch in.
ogedei 2 months ago
@ogedei. Holyfield's power is rather underrated at this level. He didn't score an awful lot of knockouts but he was fighting generally men a lot bigger than himself. He wouldn't have been considered an especially small heavyweight in the 70's.
BruceinFalkirk 2 months ago
@ogedei I had a look at your previous comments, you made some excellent points. Your arguments for why Frazier beats Tyson are well articulated. But I'm afraid you wasted your time on BruceinFalkirk, he is a man who claims Tyson has a better chin than Frazier, a man who continually questions Frazier's toughness. A man who cites Tyson's "beating" to Douglas as reason for Tyson being tougher than Joe. Quite ridiculous! I enjoyed your very valid points on how Frazier wins. Your an intelligent man.
XavierMarciano 1 month ago
@XavierMarciano Thanx for the kind words; I was just trying to make logical and rational arguments instead of just arguing or name calling. I give BruceinFalkirk credit for not making any personal attacks on me and for being a boxing fan. I wish he gave more credit to Frazier and to the importance of psychological factors (e.g., persistence, determination, resilience in the face of adversity) in determining outcomes in sports. They're what often separate true greatness from near greatness.
ogedei 1 month ago
Ogedei - one other thing, the men who beat Tyson all respected his power and with good reason. They all avoided taking too many punches and hit Tyson steadily, wearing him down.
Did Joe Frazier ever respect his opponent's power?
BruceinFalkirk 2 months ago
@BruceinFalkirk I'm sure the men who lost to Tyson "respected his power" too, so that alone isn't why Douglas and Holyfield beat Tyson. I think Frazier had enough "respect" for opponents' power that he didn't "wade in head first" but used a bob-and-weave still to avoid taking too many punches. I could easily envision a fight in which both Tyson and Frazier are knocked down, but only 1 keeps getting up. I could never imagine Tyson getting up 5 times if knocked down by a prime Foreman.
ogedei 2 months ago
@ogedei
To get Tyson down in the first place, you have to hit him a lot and if you do that, he's finished. In the case of Foreman, he avoided him altogether and if he had been around in the 70's, Cus D'Amato would have kept him away from Big George.
Frazier's entire style depended on him being able to take his opponent's punches in the early rounds. Tyson's style was to avoid the other man's punches and he was good at doing that. When he stopped doing that, he became much more beatable
BruceinFalkirk 2 months ago
@BruceinFalkirk Methinks you're straying from analysis to generalities: with most boxers, "you have to hit him a lot and if you do that, he's finished." With most boxers, the idea is to "avoid the other man's punches." Not sure how Tyson avoids Frazier's punches, when Ali, in their first fight, with faster hands, faster feet, faster head, longer reach, taller height (than Tyson), couldn't. True, Frazier gets hit by Tyson too, but bob-and-weave can blunt the power; whose chin's stronger?
ogedei 2 months ago
@ogedei
Undoubtedly, Tyson's chin is stronger. He survived a load of huge one-punch hits from Razor Ruddock. One big punch was never the way to beat him, the way to do it was to hit him a lot.
Frazier was the reverse, he wasn't the kind you could wear down, as such. Even in Manila, he was never of his feet and the fight was stopped when he couldn't see any more. He was vulnerable to really big punchers.
If Frazier was going to beat Tyson
Continued.
BruceinFalkirk 2 months ago
@BruceinFalkirk If the ONLY person to knock you out in the ring is one of the hardest punching, greatest heavyweights who lived, that doesn't prove you are "vulnerable to really big punchers" If your record includes being knocked out by Douglas, Holyfield, and Lewis, that weakens your argument about Tyson's "stronger" chin. Frazier would hit Tyson a lot (just as a 34-year-old Holyfield did); Frazier would get hit as well, but would show greater resilience, response to adversity, character.
ogedei 2 months ago
@ogedei Frazier was decked by Oscar Bonavena and Mike Bruce and nearly decked in round 2 against Ali.
Douglas and Lewis are huge men, much bigger hitters than Frazier and Holyfield is no powder-puff hitter, before the Tyson fight, he was the first man to drop Ray Mercer and Riddick Bowe.
Douglas and Lewis also didn't deck Tyson with just one punch. I add again that Razor Ruddock hit Tyson with a lot of huge single punches and didn't have him down.
BruceinFalkirk 2 months ago
@BruceinFalkirk I guess it shows "toughness" by Frazier to be decked early and come back to win. Just as biting an ear in a boxing match betrays a lack of toughness. Being a big hitter is no guarantee of success (cf Ernie Shavers). Frazier wouldn't need to deck Tyson with one punch, just keep throwing combos (esp. L hood head, then L hook body). Again, how does Tyson avoid Frazier's punches when Ali couldn't? And Frazier is "no powder-puff hitter," his L hook was consensus devastating.
ogedei 2 months ago
@ogedei This devastating puncher, Frazier, failed to KO Joe Bugner and, indeed, only narrowly beat him. Tyson is a different target to Ali and Ali was famously open to a left hook, just look at Henry Cooper.
Frazier's left hook was devastating against actual cruiserweights such as Jerry Quarry, Jimmy Ellis and, er, Dave Zyglewicz.
BruceinFalkirk 2 months ago
@BruceinFalkirk Tyson had 44 KO's in 58 fights (76%); Frazier had 27 in 37 (73%); Holyfield had 29 in 57 (51%); it's better to look at overall stats than to cherrypick: I could say that "this devastating puncher," Tyson, failed to KO James "Quick" Tillis, whose record was 42-22-1, but that would be cherrypicking. Tyson is a different target than Ali - shorter, easier for Frazier to get to. If a 34-year-old Holyfield knocks down Tyson with a left hook (6th round), why doesn't Frazier?
ogedei 2 months ago
@ogedei
Because he won't be in the 6th round.
BruceinFalkirk 2 months ago
@BruceinFalkirk I do give Tyson a great chance of reaching the 6th round, given how Frazier was such a slow starter :)
ogedei 2 months ago
His ass got smoked out by the one and only "Smoking" Joe Frazier.
Davidsondaini 2 months ago
george's eye was not 100% going into the fight, just maybe things would have been alot different if it was.
redcliff416 2 months ago
croat stays croat wherever he lives ! Like Rocky is the ITALIAN STALLION and not the american stallion ! Jure Cuvalo is the croatian bull !!
P.S i hope you never walked some streets in china accidentially because that would make you a chinese by your definition !!
Becarusa 2 months ago
@XavierMarciano
I am not a Tyson fanboy but you are a Joe Frazier fan boy. I detailed how the fighters who ACTUALLY BEAT MIKE TYSON did so and none of them did so by wading in face first.
As for losing to all time greats, how many atgs did Joe Frazier actually face in the ring? Hmm. Yes, 2 of them.
BruceinFalkirk 2 months ago
@BruceinFalkirk Frazier's style is "bob and weave," which is not the same as "wading in face first." You underestimate how much of Tyson's effectiveness hinged on his power of intimidation. One can argue that Douglas and Holyfield beat Tyson not simply because of their boxing styles, but because of their refusal to be intimidated. Only person who intimidates Smokin' Joe Frazier is his momma! The psyche is important in athletics!
ogedei 2 months ago
@ogedei
I have a book on Tyson-Douglas and Holyfield's own book. In both fights, the gameplan was all-important. Neither man stood in front of Tyson. There was a big guy who could stand in front of Tyson and beat him. I know who he is, you know who he is and, more importantly, Tyson knew who he was.
Frazier was a well-documented slow starter. It took him a few rounds to get his rhythm going before he bobbed and weaved effectively so he really was going in face first.
BruceinFalkirk 2 months ago
@ogedei Continued.
Not all Tyson's victims were intimidated by him, it has to be said. Smokin Joe was never intimated by anyone, you're right, but that alone is no guarantee of winning in boxing.
BruceinFalkirk 2 months ago
@BruceinFalkirk Being a "slow starter" is no guarantee of losing in boxing. Intimidation was a big factor with Tyson's effectiveness. Also, Tyson's psyche did not seem equipped to handle adversity nearly as well as Joe Frazier's. The fight would probably be fought in close; Tyson wouldn't be able to keep Joe off him with the jab, as Ali did, nor keep Joe off him by pushing him off, as Foreman did. Were Frazier knocked down, he'd get back up, undeterred, but Tyson might be mentally broken
ogedei 2 months ago
@ogedei
Being a slow starter against Mike Tyson when you're the same height and reach, roughly, as him is going to spell trouble.
Intimidation isn't necessary in this case. Frazier is going to be backed up by Tyson's much bigger punch. Ali didn't keep Frazier off with the jab when the fight got past the early rounds. Frazier fights like Monty Python's black knight and the way to break Tyson mentally is to avoid his punches, something that Frazier wouldn't do.
BruceinFalkirk 2 months ago
@BruceinFalkirk Not convinced that Frazier was that slow a starter: in his first 30 fights (the 30th was his KO by Foreman), 10 ended within 2 rounds, 6 ended within 4, and 6 ended within 6 rounds. I think both would land punches, but Frazier would be undeterred. Douglas didn't really avoid Tyson's punches (he was 1/2 second from being KO'd himself), but he came back unintimidated. Joe had the character to respond to adversity; Tyson not so much. Frazier fights like Monty Python's rabbit
ogedei 2 months ago
@ogedei - Tyson -Douglas. Douglas took only one good punch from Tyson, the one that decked him and even then. he was awake and listening to the count when down.
As for adversity, Joe Frazier was undoubtedly better at handing it than Mike Tyson was. The problem being that he wouldn't have faced any adversary against Joe Frazier.
I have a number of Frazier fights on tape and dvd and I can see he always started slowly both in fights he won and fights he lost.
BruceinFalkirk 2 months ago
@BruceinFalkirk Perhaps the number of Frazier fights you have on tape and dvd do not include the 16 of the first 30 that ended within 4 rounds. Don't know how you could argue that Tyson wouldn't have faced "any" adversity against Frazier - how many high pressure, bob-and-weave, deadly left hook, only lost to 2 all time greats, fighters did Tyson face? It's not WHETHER either fighter would have faced adversity, it's HOW they would have handled it. 1 gets off the canvas, 1 bites ears.
ogedei 2 months ago
@ogedei
How many really huge punchers did Joe Frazier face and how did he do against them?
I have Ellis-Frazier I on tape BTW and I can see Frazier taking a lot of punches in the first 2.5 rounds.
BruceinFalkirk 2 months ago
@BruceinFalkirk Which Ellis fight - the one in which he lost in 5 rounds, or 9? Again, how many bob-and-weave, vicious left-hook (head and body), unable to be intimidated, boxers did Tyson face? In a golden era of heavyweights, how many non-all-time great fighters did Frazier lose to?
ogedei 2 months ago
@ogedei
The first Ellis fight. How many fighters did Joe Frazier face who were roughly his height and reach with a much bigger punch and better chin, who nearly always made a good start and were very fast? Was Frazier faster than a young Tyson?
As for all-time greats, how many all-time greats did Joe Frazier face in the ring?
BruceinFalkirk 2 months ago
@BruceinFalkirk - You're an idiot,face it Mr.Sow starter. It took a prime Foreman to dent a well past his prime Frazier.You can rest ASSURED that the tinman would have only went down once against George, he had about 1% of the guts Frazier had.
1899sharkey 2 months ago
@1899sharkey
You're the idiot. Mike Tyson didn't need guts to beat an opponent who would ram his own head into his knuckles.
BruceinFalkirk 2 months ago
@1899sharkey
I looked at the Mathis -Frazier clip and there you are with your double standard again. Apparently Buster Mathis was a great fighter, unlucky to be around at the time of Joe Frazier but Tony Tubbs was a bum and that's why he lost to Mike Tyson.
No need to say anything further to you, your double standards are there for all to see.
BruceinFalkirk 2 months ago
@BruceinFalkirk Now you're learning. Mathis was a level or two ahead of cokehead Tony. See, you might not understand this but cocaine takes a lot out of a fighter
1899sharkey 2 months ago
@1899sharkey Strange that Tubbs won the first round against Tyson and had never been stopped before his fight but then you are never one to let facts get in the way of an argument.
BruceinFalkirk 2 months ago
@1899sharkey
You're right. Any man who holds a narrow points win over Joe Bugner would surely massacre Tyson, Lewis and Holyfield.
Holyfield has a glass jaw, Tyson and Lewis can't punch, Tyson is rubbish anyway, worse than Bert Cooper, Joe Calzaghe is a middleweight, despite the fact that he would have had to saw of a bodypart to make the weight and a points win over Joe Bugner proves that you are a lethal puncher.
BruceinFalkirk 2 months ago
@BruceinFalkirk -You're not only a joke, but i'm starting to think you're borderline retarded. You said calzaghe would beat Hagler, and then acted like it was a trick question because he was a super middleweiht and Marvin was a middle. Youre clearly out of your league trying to discuss boxing,dont bother correcting my spelling I know I left the(g) out of middleweight. Keep bringing up fights that Frazier WON, while I watch the tinman get brutally k.o.d by clubfighters.Slow starter..Lmao
1899sharkey 2 months ago
@1899sharkey Afraid not. I said you were so ignorant that you think Hagler would beat Calzaghe and I was right, you did. In fact, they would never meet in the ring, even with a time machine since they fought in different divisions.
Frazier was not a slow starter despite all the footage showing making a slow start, the writers who saw him fight describing him as a slow starter and the commentator Don Dunphy saying so, having watched him fight.
BruceinFalkirk 2 months ago
@BruceinFalkirk - You're obviously a mental case. Calzaghe and Hagler could never meet in the ring, so we cant predict who would win a hypothetical fight between them, but we can Frazier v Tyson? Youre more stupid than i thought!
1899sharkey 2 months ago
@1899sharkey Frazier and Tyson fought in the same division, dickhead. Nobody tougher than Frazier? How about Ali?
Ali took punches from Big George that had him bleeding for days and was never off his feet and then he came back to win. Ali also defeated punchers Ron Lyle and Earnie Shavers, good going for a man who was getting old. He was never off his feet against Ken Norton, despite his wafer-thin winning margin.
How did Frazier do? He lost by massacre to the first and avoided the others.
BruceinFalkirk 2 months ago
@BruceinFalkirk - Are you actually saying that a middleweight couldn't fight a supermiddleweight? You dont even understand what "toughness" means. Frazier was on his feet when the Foreman fight was stopped, do you think the tinman or Holyfield would of got up six times vs. George? The Calzaghe comment you originally made proves you're retarded! Go play your video games Brucie. Why did your hero start eating Holy? He wanted the fuck outa that ring. What a cowardly way to quit.
1899sharkey 2 months ago
@1899sharkey Hagler weighed in on the day of the fight, Calzaghe the day before and he entered the ring at about 180lbs. They could never meet, you idiot, especially as Hagler never fought at all outside of middleweight.
Would of? Holyfield wouldn't be on the deck 6 times. Angelo Dundee, Foreman's trainer, reckons that the punches Holyfield hit old George with would have decked young George. He presumably knows nothing and the correct phrase is 'would have'.
BruceinFalkirk 2 months ago
@BruceinFalkirk - Explain yourself on your retarded Calzaghe comment brucie. Are you that stupid that you think guys in different weight classes cant fight each other? I have to know if you're really mentally impaired.
1899sharkey 2 months ago
@1899sharkey
Let's see. Hagler expressed no interest whatsoever in fighting anywhere other than at middleweight. Given that the weighing-in rules have changed since Hagler's day, Calzaghe is, in fact, 2 weight divisions above Hagler so the fight would not happen, even with a time machine.
Hagler vs Mike McCallum is a fight that could happen McCallum fought in Hagler's division for some of his career but this will probably take you several years to work out as you're not very bright.
BruceinFalkirk 2 months ago
@BruceinFalkirk dude I see where you are coming from but how many PRIME hall of famers did tyson beat...old larry holmes, michael spinks( great light heavy), he beat berbick, bruno pinkerton, all those good but not legendary.
B04Jordan 2 months ago
@B04Jordan
How many hall of famers were around when Tyson was fighting? Tyson could only beat the guys who were there.
There were ways to beat him, of course and I make my observations based on those who actually did beat him plus the one guy he always avoided.
BruceinFalkirk 2 months ago
@BruceinFalkirk good point...like Mike said himself though we will never know because it never happened:)
B04Jordan 2 months ago
never went to the ground !!not against ali,not against foreman and not against the great frazier ! this was the croatian in him !
Becarusa 2 months ago
@Becarusa croation?? Chuvalo was Canadian, born & raised
LLB9977 2 months ago
@LLB9977 George Chuvalo originally "jure Cuvalo" (which is a croatian first and surname)is a son of croatian immigrants ! 100 percent croatian blood ! Its the blood not the passport that matters !
Becarusa 2 months ago
@Becarusa blood means nothing, its all about the streets you walked. Toronto born & raised. the man barely even speaks croat. & has probably never spent any significant time there.
LLB9977 2 months ago
Joe Frazier v Marciano at peak would have been a slug fest for the ages ,, rip big guy I hope you two are up there showing off the best right hook/left hook ever ha
seanman47 2 months ago
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It just seemed like the quality and passion was never there again with Frazier in the rest of his career after the first fight against Ali. Even the much hyped up Thrilla In Manilla over 4 and a half years later. Frazier hated draft dodger Ali backing out on his fellow country men way more than Foreman or anyone else.
BBQFanNo1 2 months ago
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BBQFanNo1 2 months ago
Frazier would literally die if that was the cost to defeat Ali in that first fight between them.
BBQFanNo1 2 months ago
Frazier was never the same after March 8th 1971. Went to the hospital to stay there for one month. Almost died while there. Even though he won the fight against Ali, he never was the same in his career after that night. Like the best of him was taken out of him after that fight. Does anyone notice the difference of Frazier's effectiveness in his fights after March 8th 1971 as compared to all his fights before March 8th 1971 and including that fight???
BBQFanNo1 2 months ago
@BBQFanNo1 - Theres absolutely no doubt that Frazier was never the same after the first Ali fight.
1899sharkey 2 months ago
Joe Frazier,George Chuvalo,and George Foreman belong in a courage class above draft dodger big mouth blowhorn Muhammed Ali.
RIP Smokin' Joe.
BBQFanNo1 2 months ago
@BBQFanNo1
Draft dodger or man who follows his own conscience? Perhaps he felt that the US had neither the right or the competency to decide--at gunpoint--how another people should organize their own society. Furthermore, a "blow horn" is one who talks the talk but cannot back it up which hardly applied to Ali.
dinan5iver 2 months ago
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Chickenshit big mouth Muhammed Ali was so afraid of George Foreman he kept trying to delay fighting against him by having the fight match cancelled for a later date in 1974.
BBQFanNo1 2 months ago
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George Foreman in his Prime the Greatest Heavyweight Boxer Ever. And I'm a Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano Fan. George Foreman said George Chuvalo had the hardest solid iron head of any boxer he ever faced.
BBQFanNo1 2 months ago
Two of the bravest guys ever to lace on a pair of gloves. Serious respect to them both. RIP to Smoking Joe. Some happiness to George Chuvalo. May their gods keep them. Legends who earned that staus the haedest way of all.
simaginfan 2 months ago
We'll never forget you Joe...3-8-71!
1899sharkey 2 months ago
R.I.P. big guy.
TetrapakProdzekt 2 months ago
R.I.P Joe Frazier.
93stormer 2 months ago
Mr. Frazier, you were an example to us all...you never gave up, and brought all you had every time out. You had class and grace too. God bless you.
jgkuster1 2 months ago
Joe was such a slow starter ... thats why he went thru a golden era of heavys and was undefeated after dominating Ali in "71. The man gets k.o.d by one of historys greatest hitters and all of a sudden anyone who starts out fast is gonna k.o. him! lol.Frazier(71) would eat the tin man for breakfast.
1899sharkey 3 months ago
@1899sharkey
Afraid not but then you never let the facts get in the way of an argument. I have Frazier on tape making an awful start against the less than earthshattering Jimmy Ellis but somehow he'll get away with that against Mike Tyson.
Idiot.
BruceinFalkirk 2 months ago
@BruceinFalkirk - Joe was a slow starter... Joe was a slow starter...Joe was a slow starter... Tyson in his prime... Tyson in his prime... Tyson in his prime... HaHaHa... you are a fuckin joke and everyone on youtube knows it.
1899sharkey 2 months ago
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@1899sharkey
Nope. You are the joke. You are attacking things that I haven't said and you don't speak English and you don't even know the rules of boxing, retard.
BruceinFalkirk 2 months ago
I can't even comprehend how much pain Chuvalo must have been in. This guy took so many hard shots, and you hear him today, he has no slur in his voice and came out of the fight game in good shape. Tough, tough guy, and seems very likable.
jimmyg141 3 months ago 2
You gotta love these Tyson fanboys who claim " Tyson was ferocious early" How about not so early? Because if you sniffers think that shit he put on those novices would have worked against great fighters You're even more retarded than I thought.Tin man was a creation of Jim Jacbs who wanted to create another Dempsey, but lo and behold he couldn't give the tin man a heart.Everything about the tinman is way overated,especially his "vaunted" power.Tinman knows he couldn't stay with the greats.
1899sharkey 3 months ago
When the bully cannot intimidate, he becomes intimidated. Tyson was a punk who should not be mentioned in the same breath as the atg heavys.Frazier got knocked down 6 x by George cause he KEPT getting up for more.Can anyone that is sane say that the tinman would of got off the floor against George. Bonavena would kick the cowars ass all the way back to Brownsville.
1899sharkey 3 months ago
Tyson is a bully and you think that the way to beat such a bully is to walk straight toward him with your head exposed and let him hit you at will.
You have clearly spent your life studying pig ignorance and have no grasp of style, psychology or strategy.
Oh, Buster beat Tyson with jabs so Frazier will beat him by standing toe-to-toe and throwing only left hooks.
BruceinFalkirk 3 months ago
@BruceinFalkirk - Stick to your spelling bees,fuckwad! You embarrass yourself when you try to talk boxing.
1899sharkey 3 months ago
@1899sharkey Sharkey this guys is clearly a blind tyson fan, I was going to go down the road of insulting him but decided to try and reason with the man. I hope he will see my valid points and open his small mind to why frazier beats tyson. Honestly it does annoy me when people see tyson bowl over bums and past their best fighters and act like he was a god. He beat average fighters at best, he did it in impressive fashion but they were average, too often that's forgotten. I hope he realises this
XavierMarciano 3 months ago
@XavierMarciano - Some guys are bliss in their ignorance. Frazier beats Tyson cause the tinman folds like a cheap tent against even good heavys. Guys who've never been near a ring dont understand things you cant see, like intestinal fortitude.Anyone who says you dont need heart to beat Joe is a complete moron. He's just a highlight reel watcher and a repeater of what he hears other Tyson rectum sniffers say.He keeps repeating, "styles make fights" like thats the only thing that matters.
1899sharkey 3 months ago
@XavierMarciano
Nothing blind about me. I know Tyson's strengths and weaknesses and simply getting of the canvas when he knocks you over is not enough to beat him.
Strangely enough, what I do with boxers is watch HOW THEY ACTUALLY LOST and draw conclusions from that. To beat Tyson, you avoid his punches and keep hitting him. Charge in face first and he'll take your head off. Simples.
BruceinFalkirk 3 months ago
@1899sharkey
You've embarassed yourself. I showed that above.
BruceinFalkirk 3 months ago
Anyway, Sharkey, I've got you on block user so I won't be notified of your fouled-mouthed idiocy that assumes because one fighter beats another, he must beat yet another and your complete ignorance of styles making fights.
Your other arguments are along the lines of 'when fighter A wins, it doesn't count' and 'when fighter B loses, it doesn't count' so get it right up you.
BruceinFalkirk 3 months ago
@BruceinFalkirk - Tell us how a relic, a man 20 YEARS PAST HIS PRIME... i'll repeat that.. 20 YEARS PAST HIS PRIME, almost beats Holy? Massacre? wtf do you think George at 25 would have did to holy? As far as your hero Tyson goes, he Ducked a 44 y.o. George. Your heros were barely good enough to beat a relic from the 70's.
1899sharkey 3 months ago
@1899sharkey
Tyson isn't my hero, I've already told you that, you complete fucking retard.
Angelo Dundee says that the punches Holyfield hit Foreman with would have decked a young George. He must know nothing about boxing, according to you.
BTW Old George would still have massacred Joe Frazier.
BruceinFalkirk 3 months ago
@BruceinFalkirk One thing you have right is that tyson was a bully, and what happens when a bully is stood up to? They shatter!! Even great bullys like Foreman when he was stood up to by a past prime Ali, or Shavers being stood up to by Jerry Quarry, or Tyson being stood up to by Douglas. Bullies always cave when stood up to. That's why Frazier wins, Frazier is a mile wide and a mile deep. Tyson is a mile wide and an inch deep. If you can't see why tyson loses your just a blind fan of his.
XavierMarciano 3 months ago
@XavierMarciano
Frazier stand up to Tyson? He never makes a good start and is easy to hit and the way to beat a bully is to make him take your punches, not ram your own face into his.
Frazier has the courage to beat Tyson but not the style so you are the fanboy. I know Tyson's strengths and weaknesses, you refuse to acknowledge Frazier's.
BruceinFalkirk 3 months ago
And Tyson-McBride?
Tyson was 39 and should have retired years before. How good was Frazier at 39? Oh no, Joe had retired after being gifted a draw against Floyd Jumbo Cummings when he was 37. I'm using your own rubbish arguments against you, Marciano.
I also add that Mike Tyson was actually quite difficult to hit in his prime, something that was never true of Frazier so tell em exactly what Frazier was going to beat Tyson with? His face?
BruceinFalkirk 3 months ago
@BruceinFalkirk
Joe was never anything but a slugger. He made up for his limitations with his heart and unrelenting will. Watch some of Joe's fights and notice that he is never on the retreat, always pressuring forward. Truly, Joe did not possess the KO power of todays heavyweights, simply because he ain't as heavy. Still doesn't change the fact that the boxers of old were mentally tougher than most heavyweights of today, regardless of their skills and athleticism.
MrRoyalFatness 3 months ago
@MrRoyalFatness
Got quite a few of his fights on tape and DVD. Joe was king of the hill and deservedly so but he wouldn't beat the big hitters of recent years because he was too small.
Boxing has divisions for a reason and Joe would be a cruiserweight, if he was around today and would be king of the hill in that division.
BruceinFalkirk 3 months ago
@BruceinFalkirk
He would indeed.
MrRoyalFatness 3 months ago
@MrRoyalFatness
The 'Hall of shame' book is by Thomas Myler.
As for heavyweights of yesteryear, Bob Fitzimmons and Tommy Burns would be supermiddleweights, Gene Tunney, Jack Dempsey, Rocky Marciano and Ezzard Charles would be cruiserweights after 1979 and some others could make 200lbs today and be cruiserweights without weakening themselves so it's no disgrace to say that these guys would not beat the superheavyweights of recent years. Size does count for something in boxing, after all.
BruceinFalkirk 3 months ago
@BruceinFalkirk
It does indeed. Still, I am lead to believe that many of todays superheavies would have been exposed by a number of the heavyweight champions of old. With the only advantage being superior weight, I don't see any present top contenders being able offer resistance against even someone like Joe Louis, who usually weighed around 200lbs and still put far heavier opponents to sleep. Superior weight is no match against superior speed and skill, especially in the case of Joe Louis.
MrRoyalFatness 3 months ago
@MrRoyalFatness
True Joe Louis has a record of knocking over bigger men. His game, as it were, depended on avoiding the other man's punches and not wading in face-first unlike some bozos I've seen.
BruceinFalkirk 3 months ago
@BruceinFalkirk
Which is also why someone like Jack Dempsey - a man who broke ribs, jaws and facial bones on poor Jess Willard - would fare well against todays standard heavyweights, simply because he was all over the place, throwing punches from so many different angles. In Jack's case, I have my money on him rather than some blown-up present heavyweight contender.
MrRoyalFatness 3 months ago
@MrRoyalFatness
Unless his opponent was black, of course.....
BruceinFalkirk 3 months ago
@BruceinFalkirk
Thankfully, those politics are long gone. Dempsey would be free to spank any black man today!
MrRoyalFatness 3 months ago
@MrRoyalFatness
I wonder how he would do against Mike Tyson, given that Dempsey was Tyson's ring idol and old-timers reckoned that a young Tyson fought like him?
BruceinFalkirk 3 months ago
@BruceinFalkirk Nice how you dodged my point of how bullies cave!! By your logic a fighter like Quarry should have never been able to beat Shavers and Ron Lyle, but he did. What excuses have you for that? Sick of fanboys of Tyson making excuses for him. Tyson also ducked 40+ Foreman, or do you have some excuse for that? At least Holyfield manned up and fought Foreman, Tyson ran scared!!
XavierMarciano 3 months ago
@BruceinFalkirk Joe a slow starter, is but a myth. He got caught cold against Bonavena in their first fight, the only time he ever started "slow" but he went on to beat bonavena and again in the rematch. The only fights he lost was to two of the greatest fighters ever. Stop overating Tyson, not a single boxing expert rates Tyson in the top 10. Espn and Ring don't rate Tyson in the top 10, and never will. But you Tyson fanboys no more than the experts, you fanboys no more than Dundee and Arcel?
XavierMarciano 3 months ago
@BruceinFalkirk I'm tired of wasting my time on you now. You ducked my points of how, Tyson lost to the best fighters he ever faced, how Mike never beat a great fighter, Mike lost to very average men like douglas and mcbride, how bullies even great bullies like Foreman, Tyson, Shavers always cave when stood up to, how Mike ducked 40+ Foreman. Sick of you spouting the same crap like all the other Tyson dickriders and ducking my points. Ali, Louis, Dempsey, Marciano, Liston, Foreman etc beat Tyson
XavierMarciano 3 months ago
@XavierMarciano
Duck the points? You're the one noting that Tyson lost to McBride. Tyson was also 39 when he lost to McBride. Using your own argument, does that mean that Frazier's draw with Jumbo Cummings is relevant?
As for Douglas, I detailed how Douglas beat Tyson and you completely ignored that. The fact that you deride me as a dickrider when I am nothing of the kind shows that you know you have lost.
And Marciano is far too small to beat Tyson so sod off.
BruceinFalkirk 2 months ago
@BruceinFalkirk
Just got the image of Joe Frazier beating up Steve Cunningham, I would have liked to see that...
MrRoyalFatness 3 months ago
@MrRoyalFatness
I n the book 'Boxing's hall of shame' a 30's heavyweight called Jack Doyle (no, I've never heard of him either) commented that 70's heavyweights were not the calibre of Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano and reckoned he could have knocked Muhammad Ali out with one punch and the same with Joe Frazier. Compare this to the old farts disease displayed by Sharkey and you'll see nothing changes about boxing, only the names and years.
BruceinFalkirk 3 months ago
cont - Tyson had one punch power against genuinely big heavyweights. Joe Frazier needed to wear down cruiserweights like Jerry Quarry and the fat Buster Mathis.
The WBA elimination tournament was said by Teddy Brenner to have eliminated all 8 men but it's somehow an achievement for Frazier to ko both finalists.
BruceinFalkirk 3 months ago
Let's look at Tyson-Douglas. 6 foot 4, 230 lb Douglas boxed and moved against Tyson, using his huge size and reach and made a good start. It's well documented that Douglas had a smart gameplan for the fight. He beat Tyson by avoiding his punches.
Joe Frazier never makes a good start, walks straight forward, regardless of opponent and his entire style depends on taking the other man's punches.
None of this will work against Mike Tyson who has one punch power cont
BruceinFalkirk 3 months ago
Buster Douglas was a clubfighter before he fought the tin man and a clubfighter after he brutally k.o.d the tin man. Mike Tyson got his in prime ass handed to him by a clubfighter. Holyfield was nearly k.o.d by fuckin Bert Cooper! Cooper was about 5% of the fighter Frazier was. Brucein falkirk needs to change his name to pussyinfalkirk.
1899sharkey 3 months ago
@1899sharkey
No analysis of style from sharkey. So because a 6 ft 4 inch 230lb man boxed and moved against Mike Tyson, Monty Python's black knight will do the same.
Holyfield gave Bert Cooper a kicking in the rest of the fight.
Sharkey needs to learn the meaning of words and rational argument and stop being a retard.
BruceinFalkirk 3 months ago
With the kind of iron chin Chuvalo had if anyone had ever bothered to teach him how to box he would have been unstoppable.
CyrustheVirus1234 4 months ago
I think Chuvalo was never floored in his career, and his ability to take a punch was superhuman. He wasn't the most skilled heavyweight out there, but he was a rugged, tough SOB. What a lineup of terrific heavyweights in the late 60's-early 70's: Ali, Liston, Patterson, Frazier, Foreman, Mac Foster, Jerry Quarry, Oscar Bonavena, Ernie Terrell, Leotis Martin, Bugner, Shavers, Ron Lyle. Chuvalo fought most of them. Only Frazier and Foreman whupped him. Still an intelligent man to this day.
ForeverYoung58 5 months ago
@ForeverYoung58 well said friend,i get so tired of George not recieving proper credit,its flat stupid what most of the uninformed think of him.thank u.
dempsey981 4 months ago
Chuvalo might have been a tough fighter but he was still a loser.
Beastie06 5 months ago
Canadians can't Fight, Joe Frazier Beat That Ass
fingerleeshands 5 months ago
That must have hurt like a s.o.b. When a man like Chuvalo calls it quits it's got to be bad.
CassiusMClay 6 months ago
Chuvalo was good, always underrated. Frazier was great.
NoGoodBoyo1000 6 months ago
One other thing i like about Chuvalo is he gives us a look at how Jeffries looked physically. They are very similar sizewise and both could take heavy punishment.and not hardly wince.
1899sharkey 7 months ago
@1899sharkey OH NO you again with that bum jeffries
illmatic826 6 months ago
Comment removed
1899sharkey 6 months ago
@1899sharkey show me some respect boy
illmatic826 6 months ago
this looks like two really good inside fighters havin a serious fight.these two are certified tough guys
dempsey981 7 months ago