Your Flight Has Been Delayed--And It's Washington's Fault!

[seeburg220]

A slickly-produced video, but I'm not buying it. This Poole guy makes his living chipping away at things he doesn't like. I would hardly think that makes him an expert. Has he ever controlled air traffic ? No. Does he realize that the US FAR exceeds Canada in aircraft movements. It's not even close ! In fact, using 2010 statistics, 20 OUT OF 32 OF THE WORLD'S BUSIEST AIRPORTS (by aircraft movement, which is a true indicator of ATC ability) ARE IN THE U.S.A, WHILE CANADA HAS ONE !!!

[daconqueror101]

Let me try and get both sides of the argument to agree here.

How about we get the current FAA ATC system, and make it a private company. Everybody who works at the FAA right now will keep their job, but instead of being government employees, they are private employees. NATCA will still exist. If the company tries to put profit over safety, the union steps in. There is a reason why unions exist in a free market. If ATC are so concerned about safety, the union will keep the company in check.

[OJA861]

Nav Canada is NOT controlled by the airlines. It is a non-share capital corporation (not for profit). It's Board of Directors is made up by appointees from government, business, unions, and airlines. No group has a majority.

As for delays, anywhere, this is not due to antequated equipment, but the result of congestion due to weather and airline scheduling practices, and most importantly due to a lack of runway and gate capacity. Electronic strips and ADSB will do nothing to help this.

[BbdHome]

The private sector would not exist for 2 seconds if it wasn't for MASSIVE government subsidizes which has be going on since aerospace existence. 60% of Boeing revenue comes from government contracts, after of course WE fund the research. That's why we have NASA, Pentagon, MIT, DARPA, Purdue, 100s of other taxpayer funded university research centers.

[PhiDelt937]

As a Air Traffic Controller in Canada, I can tell you our equipment is far better then american . I went to university in the States for Aerospace sciend (major ATC) and have seen 1st hand the equipment used in real life. And i still say Nav Canada has way better equipment. We are also a non for profit company , and that was the only way that Transport Canada(federal govt) would let us be a private company .

[Silvsilvchan]

Wow. Al Gore +1 respect point.

That puts him at.... well. Its a triple digit negative number. I lost track past -100

[uffda12345]

Yes, private ATC is all about safety ... funny how they ignored the mid-air over Switzerland that was being controlled by a private ATC company.

ATC has put more airplanes in the sky by reducing separation (and strips are basically gone from centers), but those planes need to come down sometime. Where are the runways and gates?

This appears to be a bit old since Carr hasn't been president of NATCA for about three years.

[ATCinWI]

I'm a radar controller at a major TRACON facility in the midwest (not in WI). Today I was vectoring several aircraft to the airport when the city that operates the airport (not the FAA) closed that airport for 25 minutes for snow removal. Six aircraft diverted and several dozen more were delayed due to the ensuing delay program. I wonder how Canada's private ATC system would have gotten all those planes into the airport and avoided the "ATC Delays".

[HeadTater]

I just now saw on ABC that, on the Monday before Thanksgiving, two jets came within 1.7 miles distance and 200ft altitude of colliding outside Denver because of bad info and direction given by an FAA controler.

[ATCinWI]

@HeadTater There are several privately run (contracted out in an experiment by the FAA) Air Traffic Control Towers in the USA (google Midwest ATC, Serco, and Robinson Aviation). They have operational errors there, too. What's your point?

[HeadTater]

True, the private sector does make mistakes. Humans make mistakes. However, it seems as though the private sector is generally more effective, productive and efficient than the government sector. Those private companies may be out there but the whole system is still run by the FAA and those private companies that are operating are very heavily regulated.

[bbranson]

Yeah... Al Gore is a f***-ing right-wing extremist!

[kokid0012001]

Robert Poole has long had an agenda of trying to turn over the responsibility for the safety of the skies in America to the airlines or private industry. I, personally, do not trust "for profit" corporations running Fire Departments, Police Departments, Food Safety Inspection, or Air Traffic Control. Some things are inherently governmental.

[HeadTater]

You don't trust for-profit companies. What about non-profits? How about the government? How much do you trust it? Besides, NavCanada is a private company and it is safer, more efficient and costs less than than the FAA.

[ATCinWI]

@HeadTater It costs less because they work a fraction of the traffic US FAA controllers work. NavCanada STILL hasn't figured out how to get more than 1 airplane on a runway at a time, which is, by a huge margin, the reason for airline delays.

[kamikaze2b]

Sunspots? What happens when the radar system is gone and a hijacked aircraft turns off its ADSB? Who is going to pay for retrofitting tens of thousands of airplanes with this costly equipment? NavCanda runs a tiny fraction of what the US runs! You cannot compare the two.

[kamikaze2b]

Robert Poole is a neo-con blowhard moron. So radar is 1950s technology? So? So are cars, and highways, and AIRPLANES! Oh wait those are 1900s technology. The Romans used concrete, and guess what we still do, because it works! Sure it would be great do go directly point to point, but there are tens of thousands of others that want to do the same thing. You can only have on airplane ONE airplane on the runway at a time. How exactly does GPS help there? How does GPS resolve wake turbulence, sunspot

[linenoyz]

Technology can't change the laws of physics. Two aircraft can't occupy the same space at the same time (or even a few miles behind them thanks to wake turbulence).

[davolijj]

Great, more propaganda from the reason foundation. I really hope no one watching this video mistakes it for legitamate information - any REAL industry-insider can see right through it.. It's pretty clear that the Reason Foundation is more agenda-driven than information-driven. Mr. Poole should stick to politics and leave the modernization of the National Airspace System to the real experts.

[quietwatch]

Yawn. This is old, tired, boring news regurgitated just in time for the holiday travel season. But the fact is the flying public as a whole doesn't care enough to demand action and never will. That's a good thing considering the misinformation spewed from the mouth of Reason. God forbid they should fall for such propaganda. You're wasting still more money and time Mr. Poole.

[ezrasugar]

Ive been an Air Traffic Controller for 5 years now at a large facility and we dont use strips, and havent since I was first employed. Mr. Poole, your information is outdated. Nice try though. We are talking about monitoring the skies over the sovereign jurisdiction of the United States. That is as inherently governmental as it gets. If you want to shrink government there are many ways do so. Removing Air Traffic Control is not one of them.

[MatrixJ]

The answer is not privatization and its not about airspace... it's about the lack of runways. IUS airspace is like driving home at 5pm, Mon-Fri. You get delayed because there are many more cars on the road than normal. You either build more roads or leave at a different time... the US can either build more airports or charge more for early slots. When was the last major airport built here in the US? Denver Intl, 14 years ago!

[redfinatic]

The state of TEXAS alone controls more aircraft then all of CANADA.

This Video is all about getting tax payer monies to big corp organization to members that have pretty much retired from FAA jobs to the corp.

So the revolving PR spin that the US ATC system is a failure or is failing. DONT believe the HYPE or this video. THE US STILL HAS THE BEST ATC SYSTEM IN THE WORLD!

Don't let Wall street dictate anything different to you.

Visit you local airport ATC controller and talk with them.

[ATCinWI]

Too bad no matter how close you can get the planes together in the sky, there is still a limited number of airplanes a runway can handle at a time. Has Canada figured out how to put more than one airliner on a runway at once? Nope! Almost all ATC delays are due to the airport not being able to handle more airplanes, so how is privatizing the ATC system going to solve that problem? Airport authorities aren't federally run organizations, so the argument in this video is completely rediculous.

[stephenramsden]

Yeah right,

Robert Poole is completely unbiased in his agenda....

[mikheii]

Yes, efficiency would increase. But private companies like NavCanada charge user fees to everyone- not just commercial flights- utilizing ATC and landing at an airport. The cost of training for pilots would skyrocket, and in ten years you'd have no new pilots left to fly the planes because no one can afford to obtain their licenses.

[inurik]

Wow what an eye opening video. I can't believe they still use white sticks to control multi million dollar planes. All those planes use high tech sat Navs and computerized controls, and they're are still saying it's not integrated with the Air traffic towers? Wtf?

[FiresWithWires]

The gov. always screws up great things.... like flight, healthcare and education.

[frequentairbusflyer8]

very true

[vinoberg]

Nice video reason!

[ThunderDonkey]

damn.. those "white blocks" are a backups for when electrical systems fail. (alternative reason of use), main reason is just to help the controller reminding things.

[chevydriver1123]

Never knew that about Gore.

[bellisor]

@chevydriver1123

neither did i, but he is still a dick

[MooseOfReason]

If a plane is going 500 miles per hour, that means it goes about 1.66 miles every 12 seconds.

Those must be some interesting blips. "Hey, the plane's in New Jersey. Now it's in New York."

[HeadTater]

Wait a second.

Reason siding with Al Gore and the Canadian government? Even more confusing is the fact that Al Gore and Canada are taking the side of the free market! Maybe the Mayans are right. The end is nigh.

[MooseOfReason]

@HeadTater That's right. Ron Paul, a libertarian, and Bernie Sanders, a socialist, teaming up against the Federal Reserve, as well.

[b07rivera]

Maybe we do need Universal Health Care, maybe that big bill is able to break down these corrupted Private insurance companies.

[MothmanCometh]

All that money put into homeland security and we still use RADAR? WTF!?

Goddamn, our leaders are fucking stupid.

[shalcall]

Yeah, because we need a monopoly running our air traffic control system. . .

[Anakha13]

Isn't that what the FAA pretty much is? A monopoly?

[stealth350]

@Anakha13 The FAA is there to ensure that safety is maintained in all areas. This is anything from Maintenance to training requirements for pilots. However, they often get in the way. Key example is that an identical bolt sold for a car is about 5% the cost of the same bolt for an airplane. The reason? Certification and safety requirements. Even this is more of a necessary evil than ATC. If the FAA is that concerned, use modern tech, or give it to someone who will.

[IVoteNone]

"Hi, you doubled my bill recently and I want to know why." "Oh, we're trying out a new business strategy called profits before people.." "Right.. well I'm canceling your service." "No you don't understand, this is profits before people. New business strategy. You can't just.. *beep*"

[imrubberandyoureglue]

If it's so much better how come they still use those little white blocks up in Canada? The pay and benefits are worse, the workload is higher and there are less jobs.

[dmrndrt]

So, what is it that makes us think the government can run healthcare?

[dickyco2]

Fly "The Burning Sky" fly Air-Pollution luxury club Volcano of Oil, Insinerator class Smogliners, Cloud of Combustion service, non-stop to the End of the Earth.

[FriendFromUpNorth]

Nav Canada has never received a dollar of public money nor does it benefit from any government guarantees or subsidies; there has never been any bailouts, despite what odaatob says. It is totally, financially self-sufficient. The rates it charges its customers today are 25% less than the cumulative rate of inflation from when it started 13 years ago.

[FatherTime89]

...I can't believe such a prominent democrat would be on board with privatizing something that big. Props to Al Gore.

[odaatob]

They fail to mention that the new, private Canadian Air Traffic Control company has been bailed out by the government three times in its short existence in order to avoid bankruptcy.

[z3jk3]

Seems like that could be an issue with licensing. Why is one company given the whole country's ATC biz?

[FriendFromUpNorth]

indeed, but operating the ATC is a natural monopoly (it doesn't make sense to have multiple companies competing to operate it), so that is why it is a not for profit, non-share capital corporation.

[z3jk3]

In a singular airport I could see it as a natural monopoly, but couldn't each airport have a franchise (sort of how cable operators work in the USA).

[sigmet61]

odaatob... when was navcanada bailed out? or are you talking out of your derriere?

[imrubberandyoureglue]

Well when I was at NavCanada we still used flight strips. You now have to pay for your own training at NCTI and the process of reducing tower controllers is well under way. NavCanada provides a good service but with reduced employment, pay and increased workload.

[Wargoat6]

Wait, Gore and I agree on something?

[El3ctricPenguin]

omg, Manbearpig is real!

[Ksabrs45]

Obviously the only alternative to Public Monopoly is Private Monopoly..... ugh...

[Guest655321]

@6:51 ... examples?

[Aeschylus]

"Profits before people"? Profit drives service, which benefits people.

[seismedia]

"Profits before people"?

Sure, three word bumper sticker slogans work great for the analytically challenged.

[sca719]

I would like to punch that fucking John Carr in his face.

[DCetrick]

This is awesome.

[bittergunowner12]

Wow for once I actually agree with Al Gore.

[sopps]

What BS reporting.

-Most airline delay is caused by the airlines themselves

-Of the delay that is cause by the air space system it is almost always because there is too many planes trying to use too few runways, not ATC's inability to handle the traffic.

-The US ATC technology IS being upgraded

-That $14 billion hanger was NOT paid for with AIP funding.

-Nav Canada is government owned.

-ATC does not rely on primary radar.

[sniper6081]

So, I'm supposed to take your word over an organization dedicated to proper investigative journalism?

[sopps]

As a general rule news outlets know nothing about the aviation industry and their reports are full of errors. You could take my comments as a sign that this organization misrepresented the truth and do a little research of your own. But that is too much to ask for.

You trust Fox and all the other news outlets to report completely accurate information?

[sniper6081]

Um, no, but these people aren't FOX, NBC, CNN, CBS, or ABC. It's the Reason Foundation. The purpose of their existence is truth and have delivered time and time again. I always do esearch on news outlets before I take them seriously and these guys are among the very best. Besides, you haven't shown that you know much about the industry either. For example, do you know why so many planes fly past their destinations?

[sopps]

There are not very many planes that fly passed their destination.

Doing a quick search shows the Reason Foundation advocates the privatization of nearly all government functions, there is nothing wrong with that but to expect them to show an unbiased review of the circumstances is foolish.

[sniper6081]

I don't expect them too, but they do and lots of planes fly past their destinations all the time. Planes these days are highly automated. All the pilot has to do is push the right button at the right time and the plane takes off and lands itself. However, if the pilot isn't paying attention, as is most often the case, they fly past the airport and they have to turn around, but if the air traffic controlers had real time data they could contact the pilots and tell them they have to descend.

[sopps]

I wish I had more then 500 characters so I could go into more detail. But to get to the point, yes the pilots got distracted but ATC does have real time information on the flight including location, speed, altitude and unique squawk code. The problem was that the flight crew did not respond to ATC's radio calls. (MSP has a radar system with .5 second refresh.)

I'm a pilot and have degrees in flight operations and aviation management.

[sniper6081]

Oh how convenient. You're a pilot now. Well pilot, not all the airports in the country are the same, as displayed in this video. I'm sure there are some out there that are good, but it doesn't make up for the fact that they're out of date.

[sopps]

I did not pick MSP randomly, that was the destination of NWA flight 188. My comment was to prove that ATC's radar technology was not a contributing factor in the incident that you brought up.

And yes the National Airspace System could use some modernization, that is why, as previously mentioned, it is in the process of being upgraded.

[sniper6081]

They're certainly taking their time aren't they? If they were privatized it would've been done years ago.

[sopps]

Okay the video also leads people to believe ATC has not changed since the 1950s which is completely inaccurate. And to say the GPS in your car is more advanced then the equipment in the airliners is a flat out lie.

ATC uses 1950s technology in the same sense that airliners use jet engines that were developed in 1910. It may have been invented then but a lot has changed.

And I am not necessarily against privatized ATC, I'm again false and misleading reporting.

[sniper6081]

Maybe it is you that hasn't done enough research. Even if you are a pilot that doesn't mean you're all knowing. At this point this has become he said she said so do you have anything else to say or are we done?

[ATCinWI]

@sniper6081 Airports aren't run by the US government . . . they're all run by airport authorities, or local towns or cities, or private companies. In any case, the federal government doesn't decide when to build a new runway or new passenger facilities. Air traffic control, despite being "out of date" still deliver aircraft to runways at the maximum rate the runway can accept. New ATC equipment won't allow runways to accept more than one airplane at a time.

[sniper6081]

And I'm sure privatization could change that.

[ATCinWI]

@sniper6081 Up to 12 seconds of lag time causes planes to fly past their destination by 150 miles? WTF are you talking about?

[sniper6081]

When did I say that?

[sigmet61]

Sopps... Nav Canada is not goverment owned... it was purchased from the government in 96..... Read a bit before you post..

[787Bisurdaddy]

I can't believe people actually foster this mentality (or at least buy into it when the argument is made) that the government is the only thing keeping us safe. As if the FAA is the reason why planes don't crash more frequently, or that if a private company were to take over, safety would be compromised.

If anything, it's exactly backwards. Look at the FDA; despite its routine screw-ups, people still place faith in it because it's "the government." Government does not keep anyone safe.

[787Bisurdaddy]

And leave it to people with personal interests in mind to argue baseless points backed by nothing but appeals to emotion.

[787Bisurdaddy]

"There's some things the government has to do."

I disagree completely.

[LowcountryJoe2]

I disagree, too!  Unless getting the hell out of the way is at the very top of its list.

[Z14LDO]

Our biggest enemy right now is our own government. =-(

[DoomHippie]

Wow. I agree with Gore. Wow.

[somercet1]

I know, freaky, huh? We could cut carbon emissions by eliminating subsidies for oil companies and allowing free trade in biofuels (and their raw materials: sugar, &c.). Common sense would dictate that we eliminate the subsidies before we implement fines, but, as we all can see, common sense goes nowhere in Washington, D.C. :-(

[j37v30]

NAVCAN is nothing more than all the old government air traffic control system and staff, decoupled from direct government (taxpayer) financing. They set their own rates and charge the airline industry and public a raft of fees that they can get away with to upgrade/maintain the system.

And that includes salaries no longer in the public domain or subject to scrutiny.

The system is as safe as any in the world, but often one finds taxes and various improvement/security fees

exceeding ticket costs.

[shiftedstuff]

An air traffic controller makes about $90k starting. It's rather insane. My roommate is one.

[pstav1]

It's the number of runways, stupid. ATC is not to blame. NEXTGEN is a multi-billion dollar boondoggle.

What a bunch of crap.

[WaywornIVImmmm]

Yup, profit before saftey. Because you would make so much money by crashing your planes and killing your customers.

[noiwudnttrip]

I'd agree if every flight I took to Canada crash landed. Did you even bother to watch the video?

[samuils]

LOL

[mindtriplx]

Hold on. Al Gore had a good idea? That blows my effin' mind.

[evrose]

The only thing worse than Al Gore, is Al Gore when he's right. Agreeing with the Goracle makes me feel dirty - I have to go take a shower now.

[jsh78mang]

I thought the same thing earlier. The shower didn't help I still feel dirty. LOL

[MooseOfReason]

A lot of things haven't changed in government in decades. Like education. Or our foreign policy.  Or Chris Dodd serving in the Senate.

By the way, the Reason 'webathon' is still going on till Friday, so if you enjoyed this, maybe you could make a contribution.

(The 'Reason' in my username isn't related to the magazine)

[Transitiving]

Theres never been a midair collision since plains started carrying collision avoidance systems. I think the best solution is to find a way to do away with the controller and have pilots make the decisions.

[shiftedstuff]

That wouldn't work. It's not bad when you have half a dozen planes at an airport, but when you have thousands in one airspace, it's impossible. At airports such as Pearson, they have about 100 controllers on the job during the day. Some do radar, some do information (intermediary between the controllers), etc.

[Transitiving]

But you dont have any controllers for the thousands of cars on city streets. If all the plains could see each other and the planned routes on a computer screen youd have a thousand controllers.

[shiftedstuff]

But there are a few differences. Planes can't stop unless they're on the ground, being the biggest one. And the gridlock that occurs in busy downtown streets would be disastrous in the air. Much like the solution to traffic jams is to limit access to the roads (tolls, access delays, etc), the solution to airspace is the same (ATC).

[Yakko77]

Itll take the death of hundreds in an avoidable disaster to get anything done. Bank on it.

[irisojects]

NAVCANADA probably creates more jobs and economic activity . So here we sit in the recession doldrums and an ineffective air traffic control system. Worse yet is I have to agree with Al Gore. Could it more crappy?

[boxant]

"She must be healthy, single and between the ages of 21 and 28."

Those were the days :\

[freedominsomalia]

that'sfor sure

[oli1233]

Why was Al Gore in favor of this ? What's the catch ?

[DSAhmed]

The government did a great job of air-traffic control on 9/11.

[shiftedstuff]

I hope that's sarcasm.

[DSAhmed]

It is sarcasm.

[MagnusIan]

@3:25 Profits before people? Um, how can one make any sort of profit without providing a good service to its customers? The FAA is horrible and I would be more than happily to let a private company run the skies for commercial flights.

[chris3443]

Never had a late flight in China in the past 10 years. Maybe America needs to remember what made America great (i.e. fuck off government)

[abarzilai664]

The gov. sees that as too much of a cash cow to give up.

[Daniel44125]

I love Reason TV

[whoo689]

The really sad and weird thing is that, as free-market as the American economy has historically been compared to most others, we STILL have a LONGG way to go in terms of gov't monopolies and making privatization much more prevalent. It's a shame that we still have only ONE legal "corporation" running letter-carrying! It's a fucking shame the gov't runs our skies. It's a crying shame the gov't still has monopolies on transit in so many cities, rather than real competition.

[grraadd]

even socialist european union agreed that post offices must be privatised (or exposed on cimpetition)... FDR still lives in american heads... just like Lenin in russian and east european heads.

[TrueEmergence]

I concur. It's even more sad that a place like Canada has loosened it up in the air.

[freedominsomalia]

canada is still pretty crappy

[whoo689]

Canada privatized ITS air traffic control system within the last decade, if I recall! And there haven't been any major disasters because of it. It's time to do the same here. Why does gov't necessarily have to control the skies?  I fail to see how that's constitutional or within the purview of protecting Americans and their liberty, esp. from foreign aggressors.

[whoo689]

The FAA, like the FCC, should be significantly downsized. We don't need a gov't monopoly in air traffic control. Nor do we need all these cumbersome regulations! The FAA should mainly exist to coordinate antiterrorist efforts with airlines as well as minimal disaster prevention. No more than that is necessary. If the gov't gets another terror alert, they should warn airlines to be on the lookout, for instance. The people should run their skies, not gov't.

[brewersrule1978]

Primary reason if ANY party grabs and runs w/term limits as an across the board campaign promise, they will wind in a landslide. Need to stop guys like Murtha and his chronies' BS already.

[jsh78mang]

Very informitive, thank you guys and keep them coming.

[Krampfarsch]

great

[stick1to2the3issue]

first