Bart Ehrman

[mlcollins10]

take the challenge - watch "deconversion" on youtube. Then let's talk. fear not the truth shall make you free.

[FeignofCordor]

muslims love this guy.

[Rockymtntruth]

@namasteywhat Of course an Evangelical Christian can be deeply honest with an "authentic soul" but far too many are not. This highly intellectual man who has spent countless hours pouring over research and ancient documents has been forced to be honest about his experience. Those who take the road of atheism are (in my view) not being very honest. Their non-belief is like a religion in and of itself. There are believers who are honest and sincere as well.

[mik99D]

People forget that this is a blood cult which worships the zombie from Palestine. If I were to invent the tenants of Christianity today, I'd be looked upon as a mindless fool. However that is what it is and this is what we've got. It is insane. If I wrote a testament similar to the one about Jesus with all the paradoxes and hypocrisy as the New Testament. It would be laughed at as ridiculous and I'd lose any credibility. However that is what it is and it is bizarre.

[FeignofCordor]

@mik99D

You`re a mindless fool.

[mik99D]

@FeignofCordor Bugger! I asked for that, didn't I?

[velkom]

@mik99D

well first you'd have to learn to spell- 'tenants' pay rent,try tenets,ie,principles on which beliefs are based.

[mik99D]

@velkom sorry but the keyboard is knackered as it got wet and it takes for ever to get the correct spellings done I am using a remote now so accept my apologies

[mik99D]

@mik99D Bugger, you are right. I must have inadvertently used the 'spell checker'. I am indeed a fool, for that.

[Oallos1]

I want to recommend that fans of Bart Ehrman have a look at the youtube channel called "EhrmanProject"

or

EhrmanProject (dot) com

Hope you all enjoy the ongoing discussion there about the ideas Bart has promoted.

[Jugglable]

Ehrman says that the idea of Jesus' divinity wasn't original to Christianity. I don't see how that's the case when the earliest writings, the epistles, describe Jesus as divine, and all the gospels have him forgiving sins. Plus, Jesus' own claim to divinity can be found among the statements admitted as historical by the skeptical Jesus seminar.

[whitecloud46]

@richwfd2002 What about the tumor that disappeared from the kid at the bay of the Holy Spirit Revival? Look for it at youtube.

[whitecloud46]

@richwfd2002 if you don't want to believe is your choice. i testify to give glory to God not to convince any one. Kidneys don't sprout. They don't grow back. The ultra sound shows a kidney that was not there, that's it.

[bernlin2000]

@whitecloud46 I'll believe it when I hear it from a reputable medical doctor and he can produce reliable evidence, like all reasonable people should when people claim something that defies natural law.

[MMun777]

Well. In my humbly opinion. I guess this guy should stop at his style that he himself cofirms. Keep himself as an agnostic and stop writing such kind of books which serves him as a profitable bussiness and unfortunatelly he finds people to raise it. He does pretty much the same thing maybe when he used to be a "christian".

[whitecloud46]

@Bart Ehrman

You will earn a lot of money with your books but have lost the

greater gift SALVATION AND ETERNAL LIFE.

Matthew 16:26

What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul?

[dallaskenn]

@whitecloud46 You're joking, right?

[whitecloud46]

@dallaskenn

what do you mean?

[richwfd2002]

@whitecloud46 Save your emotional blackmail for your fellow, gullible pew-sitters.

[richwfd2002]

@whitecloud46 So, you expect others to believe based on someone else's experience? That's ridiculous. Besides, you haven't proven anything. I do not believe that you spontaneously "sprouted" a new kidney or any other nonsense. Sounds more like science and human effort to me. And it is emotional. You believe because you want to. Who do you think you're kidding??

[whitecloud46]

The fact that one gospel differ from other in information doesn't prove anything since it was written by human beings and if one information is missing in one then it is completed in the other. I can see you never had a personal experience with Jesus like apostle Paul did and like millions of Christians including myself did.

God created in me a new kidney. He strengthen my paralyzed face back to normal and He healed me from amnesia. He healed my baby's eyes. Have you met this powerful God?

[RCRhythm]

@whitecloud46 Why won't he heal amputees?

[whitecloud46]

@RCRhythm

As I told you in my message to you. Just search not only

in English and you will find all kind of miracles, even a man

grew back a whole missing arm. Just search and you will find finges

and other limbs created.

[OneEyedJack1970]

@RCRhythm He does.  Ever heard of Malchus?

[whitecloud46]

@ Bart Ehrman

You were not a new born Christian at all. You reason the scriptures in the flesh and Scriptures are Spirit and Truth. You can't tell God what he has to do . What is to be good for you doesn't have to mean the same to God. He is God, He does what He wants and we are no ones to tell Him what he has to do. I feel sorry for you. Your "knowledge" has made you a spiritual ignorant.

[jlennon555]

believe me DR you answers are in the QURAN

the Bible God is really destructif it doesn t mean all religion are the same ISLAM is not one it s a way of living just read it

i don t know why all the christian world think that there is ony the Bible if not there is nothing else

for us you discovered nothing cose it was written there in QURAN but you did a great job when you gave details

[whitecloud46]

@jlennon555

His answers are in the Bible too but is spiritual blind.

[Polishman1]

@jlennon555 Even though the Bible is corrupt, the Quran isn't, ha? So what about the fact that the Quran overflows with contradictions. Muslim scholars need the hadith in order to understand the meaning of Quran. And who knows how many hadith are true and how many are forgery. You're really funny:-).

[jlennon555]

believe me DR you answers are in the QURAN

the Bible God is really destructif it doesn t mean all religion are the same ISLAM is not one it s a way of living just read it

i don t know why all the christian world think that there is ony the Bible if not there is nothing else

[jlennon555]

believe me DR you answers are in the QURAN

the Bible God is really destructif it doesn t mean all religion are the same ISLAM is not one it s a way of living just read it guy

[jlennon555]

@hisglorydivine are you sure ? write one and let s know

[laurierevill]

I hope the jesuits don't torture him as a heretic.

[trac4yt]

@jacksawild

Bart fell for the first trap..

"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, HATH GOD SAID, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?" (Ge 3:1)

..hardly commendable.

God has providentially preserved HIS Word perfect in the Bible via HIS promises. It is thus sacred, infallible, and final authority.

Bart's work was never needed.

But he still may turn to the King of Kings someday.

:-)

[RCRhythm]

@trac4yt You're right, minus the hundreds of painfully terminal contradictions, absurdities and atrocities. Aside from those, the Bible's just perfect.

[AllOtherNamesUsed]

I think Ehrman is really out of his depth on this issue. He's not a psychologist, not a political historian (arguably the most important aspect affecting suffering today, yet he seems to gloss over it) and he's not a philosopher or anthropologist. Personally, I find his logic wanting on an elementary level. People just seem far too ready to grant a scholar of one field credit across all fields they decide to engage in. That's a mistake on the part of the audience Ehrman capitalizes on.

[thebadger587]

why is there suffering? easy. there's no god, which means there's no magic safety net.

[k0smon]

@thebadger587 Suffering is self-limiting, Most everyone dies before they are 100, thereby ending suffering. The afterlife is where the good stuff takes place, and it lasts forever.

[thebadger587]

@k0smon whats the evidence that an afterlife exists? none. death is the end my friend.

[k0smon]

@thebadger587 Sorry to disappoint you, but the evidence is great. Just because you don't accept it does not mean it is not valid. Every psychic contact with verified information is evidence. Every seance, NDE's, EVP, every ghost, is evidence of the continuation of life. I have been to 2 materialization seances and will verify them to be the real thing. Proof? Not to you, your mind is already made up.

[MadinahNoor]

I like this guy. Very strong in the way he thinks and logical in his own way. I believe everyone should question their faith at 1 point & not just blindly believe. We think differently, but I was once there. I am a Muslim woman, yes I know there r many misconceptions about Islam. But questioning leads to firm understanding in the long run. I've done that, today I regret nothing. Thank God.

[MadinahNoor]

Before even going to what he got to, the trinity its is the biggest contradiction. How can one be his own father and his own son an not be 3 but one adding "holy spirit." That's the biggest problem many truthful christians go through and end up loosing their faith.

[k0smon]

@MadinahNoor Another big problem with Christian doctrine is the teaching that God sends everyone to hell that doesn't believe in Jesus. A former pentecostal preacher named Carlton Pearson had a revelation that Jesus saved everyone whether they believe it or not. He has now become a 'new thought' preacher.

[jihadulnafs]

why do people talk about the Quran with no knowledge of it at all. as soon as people realize the falibility of the Bible they seem to then belittle all other great scriptures. first study the Quran then talk. the Quran is the only scripture without any errors or contradictions. test it yourself.

[donnyv78]

@jihadulnafs An example of one of the many contradictions in the Quran:

(4:137) "Those who believe, then disbelieve and then (again) believe, then disbelieve, and then increase in disbelief, Allah will never pardon them."

(39:153) "Say: O My slaves who have been prodigal to their own hurt! Despair not of the mercy of Allah, Who forgiveth all sins. Lo! He is the Forgiving, the Merciful."

For countless other contradiction in the Quran, see The Scripture Project on the Project Reason website.

[Tothose]

We muslims have answer to this question or any other question that bothers diffrent people for example why we suffer , question that atheists pose if GOD is ALL good why is there evil. question about destiny . in detail oh yes. no confussion. only those will be guided who are looking for it not those pick and choose meaning if its easier for them. and are afraid that if they knew what GOD really want us to do we might not be able to.

[MadinahNoor]

@Tothose Indeed

[Rockymtntruth]

Well it's ironic that many Christians, especially Evangelicals tend to be quite judgemental, pharisaical and heartless. It took an Evangelical Christian man with an authentic soul to speak the truth about his experience in his immense search for truth which led him to be a deeply honest agnostic man.

[k0smon]

@Rockymtntruth True about judgmental. See the Rev Paul Washer and Anderson as they criticize other preachers.

[Rockymtntruth]

@k0smon I know it. There so many Evangelical ministers who knock down others as not preaching the "true" gospel and bicker and argue. It's nuts. Religion can be so insane and off the wall.

[bernlin2000]

@Rockymtntruth I'm still trying to locate a biblical scholar who takes the historicity of the Bible seriously...and doesn't just paper it over with theology. To date...no such luck besides Ehrman.

[Rockymtntruth]

@bernlin2000 You would think there would be more. I wonder why this is the case?

[FeignofCordor]

@Rockymtntruth

I think i`m going to be sick all over you.

[Rockymtntruth]

@FeignofCordor No you keep your sicknesses including your idiocy to yourself.

[Botie2]

I had a similar enlightened moment when I was told God is all good and all knowing. I surmised if that were the case then he would know which souls he created would excerise their free will against him and therefor end up in hell, so why create them if he is incapable of creating anything that was not good?

[Rockymtntruth]

The Ironic thing about Dr. Ehrman as a person is the fact that his desires are very Christlike in that he is deeply troubled with hunger and suffering in the world.

[waksibra]

@Rockymtntruth Or just human?

[Rockymtntruth]

@waksibra I never looked at concern for fellow men and women as being "human" but you're probably correct about that. Most do have an innate concern for others. Thank goodness for that.

[waksibra]

@Rockymtntruth Indeed :)

[9shaddia]

Bart Ehrman you are 100% right

[Mateeur293]

Yes you are right that Bible is written by human hand. But these people did not make stories byselves. Don't you think that there was something in real wich was changed by adding, removing and exaggerating due to there human psycology like Jesus was exraordinary good and leading man but he was made God by the people. If it is, we need to understand that what Jesus teaching in actual.

In regarding to suffering, did you think that may br this world is a trial (examination Hall) for human.

[iwantyou9944]

Bart Ehrman missing something thats we are here beacuze god want to test us and know who will follow his guidence ..about the suffer the humen cuz it beacuze humen doesnt follow god ,iam muslim

[kadene2]

Test us? Why should he want to test us? Are we lab rats in some great experiment? Because if there is really any superior being in charge of this universe, he doesn't really deserve to be worshipped as the religious do, cowering in fear. Fear that they'll be struck down for the slightest mistake, and fear of death and not knowing what lies beyond. Be brave, take a chance; there's nothing there but sweet oblivion.

[k0smon]

@kadene2 You can know what lies beyond. Download "Life in the World Unseen" for a good start.

[kadene2]

@k0smon Who made that video? A ghost? I don't know of anyone who really died and came back. Near-death doesn't count. I mean dead, where the body begins to sho it..

[k0smon]

@kadene2 What video are you referring to? I mentioned a book.

[whitecloud46]

@kadene2

Search on YouTube

Man Actually Returns From the Dead After 3 Days Part 1 of 2

[kadene2]

@k0smon Who made the video then. A ghosr?

[99minerkc]

Actually, you're missing something not Bart! What you're missing is an EDUCATION-GET ONE then comment!

[k0smon]

@iwantyou9944 Man, go back to English class and take a refresher course. You're not doing so good.

[gusreifenkugel]

bart is awesome

[Studio4711]

Ehrman states a few very simple FACTS and he explains very detailed how he got to his findings.

1.The bible was written by the Greeks and not by God, or by Jesus, not even by any of his apostils, because they simply couldnt write and didnt speak Greek (and the earliest biblical texts were written in Greek).

2.The New Testament is a collection of highly edited texts, written decades and centuries after Jesus was crucified.

[nighthawk7878]

What? No.1  How do you know? No. 2 False.

[BarronTD]

He's not saying he knows these things or that they are true, just that if someone is going to posit these properties for a deity, it is inconsistant with what we observe in the universe. A great deal of christians do posit these properties for their god.

[nighthawk7878]

Maybe you missed: "Ehrman states a few very simple FACTS....."

[Studio4711]

continued

3.There are many contradictions within the NT and everybody can go and find them right now. There is no denying these contradictions, although believers offer interpretations trying to explain.

4.Ehrmans historical point of view offers alternatives to believing in miracles. Nobody can claim to actually know what really happened after Jesus died. Probability speaks against miracles as the least probable explanation.

If you listen to reason, you have to consider Ehrman's books.

[yuutokun]

I like this Steven Cockring guy

[greg357159]

Watch George Carlin (comic) on religion... sums up what most of us feel. Bart really doesn't have the insight and wisdom to come to such rash decisions about the resurrection.of Jesus. Is Bart Jewish? anyway, religion is obviously a necessary control of the masses. Without religion who could we all find fault in? or start a war? hmmm Jesus is the shepard and watches over his sheeple.

[greg357159]

Without all these holy texts all over the world man would have never gained the knowledge and technologies we have today. Man is a very dangerous animal due to his self serving mentality. Earth quakes, Tsunamis,Tornados,volcanos,hur­ricanes and disease have always been in earth's history. People insist living in areas where these earth changes happen and get negative results. Killings, accidents abortions, starvation are caused by man's mistakes. God is an escape goat for their poor decisions.

[qarohc]

These "holy texts" created the dark ages, if you dont believe that look at the world where fundemental Islam has a strangle hold on science and remember that when Europe was in the christian dark ages the middle east was the keeper of ancient knowledge and innovators of technology.

You are not making your self clear

Blaming victims for being born in poor areas

"watch George Carling" - religion is bullshit?

Cant talk about jesus's resurection unless your jewish?

-all over the place in a bad way.

[Cliner97]

Christians watch these vids and debate on them alot, which is suspect to me in itself. Do you believe? Well, good then, go believe don't worry then about what anyone else says. Fact is, I don't think in their hearts most Christians believe that convoluted nonsense as it is anyway. Any religion as confused with issues so hotly debated throughout history has no business laying claim to 'truth' in any way shape or form. Islam is the same way and they too are always battling over the Koran. Rubbish

[meangreen4321]

Why won't they question Bible infallibility then?

[qarohc]

"Christians DO test their beliefs,what they are taught and the scriptures encourage this!"

Glad to see that you think for yourself, when told to do so.

[qarohc]

Im not sure of what exactly you are acusing me of in this.

It is no more a miracle that i figured out that the christian god is bullshit than it is that you figured out that the muslim god is bullshit.

The hostility you are showing me shows me what "christian teachings" produce. Intolerance, intellectual laziness, inability to reason, and a smug undeserved superiority complex.

[qarohc]

1- god is all loving

2- god is allpowerfull

3- horrible things happen to innocents (babies born with deadly cancers, deadly deformities, deadly diseases to name just a few)

4- god doesnt have the power to stop these things

5- god doenst care about these babies

6- there is no god

its either 4,5 or 6

If he inst powerful why call it god? If it doesn't care its a powerful demon.This world is proof that your god is a lie.

I understand why you need to try to ridicule me but i am not your enemy.

[jaynoh1]

You overlooked one crucial area: the reality of sin and judgment.

This world is not as God had originally designed it to be but at the present time broken by sin and waiting for full restoration.

[qarohc]

What you are saying is that "god" was not smart enough (omniscient) to realize the world would reach its current state of affairs. The creature you describe is not a god by christian standards.

Your position is either not well thought out or intentionally misleading.

I talk about babies so that people can not use the word sin to excuse anything that happens, i am not overlooking anything you are excusing superstitious lies.

[99minerkc]

You're another MISLED Christian that either refuses to educate yourself or not capable of it!! Sad, very Sad!!

[dorsk188]

How depressing for you. Your god can't even design a universe without it screwing up.

I thought he "had a plan".

[pzyktzle]

a believer will just state a thing as true.

bart has spent his life looking into his field, studying, examining, and is one of the leading biblical scholars in the word. when he states things, i give him far more credibility that someone who states things as true without even knowing the history of how the book they repeat from got into their hands. don't you?

[calomie]

@Cliner97

So because we debate, it must show that we don't really believe what we claim to believe? Or could it rather be because we believe we have good reasons for believing what we do, that it's not "nonsense", and we're not afraid to discussion with others who are on the other side. I mean if it were the other way, and we refused to enter the debate arena, would you really applaud us for doing not entering, or would you accuse us of intellectual cowardice?

Thanks for your time, calomie

[calomie]

@calomie not afraid to discuss*

[jacksawild]

@calomie It is simple. Prof Ehrman came from a background which says the Bible is inerrant and divinely inspired. He honestly studied these texts, sought out the oldest copies, learned the required languages and then realised that the version of events that is widely held is absolutely not what the documents themselves say. He is a brave man for speaking out and he is a patient man for debating with people who ignore his expertise. Education is the cure.

[whitecloud46]

@jacksawild

An he became deceived by the devil.

Matthew 16:26

What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul?

[evethezealot]

@Cliner97 You seem to have some psychological insight. Why would a Christian (or anyone else) straddle the fence of believing and in their heart-of-hearts not believing. Wouldn't a sane being simply STOP believing if they don't believe anymore? Thanks for your reply.

[evethezealot]

No contradiction, Bart. "God is all-powerful," yes. "God is all-loving," yes. "There is suffering," yes. How can they all exist @ the same time? God's power & love doesn't prevent suffering. His love is evident n the atonement. His power is evident n Creation. Suffering is obviously part of the Plan if He can prevent it but doesn't. And if u say u can't serve or believe n a god like that, then you've chosen not 2 serve or believe n the One who set creation and your own life in motion.

[MrJohndl]

@evethezealot

If God loves us, he wouldn't let us suffer - its a no brainer really. There is no God of course, so the argument is a bit pointless really.

[evethezealot]

@MrJohndl "If God loves us, he wouldn't let us suffer." How do you know? You're giving yourself a lot of credit. You seem to think you know the nature of a god you don't believe in. This question is easily answered with a simply perusal of early human history.

[MrJohndl]

@evethezealot

I studied comparative religion at university many years ago. Sociology explains religion very easily. It's all made up. Here endeth the lesson.

[evethezealot]

@MrJohndl I wasn't clear and I apologize. To rephrase: How do you know that if God loves us He wouldn't let us suffer? How do you know that about God? Where did you get your reasoning from? Again, I know you don't believe, but you were the one who made the statement about His nature so I'm wondering how it is that you know about His nature. Thanks.

[MrJohndl]

@evethezealot

Ok - it seems quite reasonable that if you love someone, you would do anything to prevent their suffering. That's what love means actually. Therefore, if God 'loves' us, he wouldn't sit back and idly watch millions of innocent people (usually children) suffer. Of course, I don't believe in the God of the bible, so it's all just hypothetical for me I suppose.

[trac4yt]

ptica,

The Bible is God's LIVING revelation.

Thus, fallibility is impossible.

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. "(Joh 6:63)

:-)

Always dump Bible critical information created by the doubters-in-chains. it's all worthless.

[k0smon]

@trac4yt There is nothing Living about the bible. It is the same as it has been for 1500 years. What is living is people's inspiration. Carlton Pearson had a revelation that Christ came to save everyone, and He did whether they believe it or not. Now that is what I call a living revelation.

[trac4yt]

God has inspired and providentially preserved His Word perfect in the Bible via HIS promises. It is thus sacred, infallible, and final authority.

All is God-centric.

Always dump Bible critical information. It's all worthless.

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." (Heb 4:12)

:-)

[ptica11]

i bet that u r ether a total idiot or u never read the bible

[machangsedap]

Bart study have nothing to do with the existing of the God. His study is on the authenticity of bible as the words of God and he found out that human has edited it. His finding actualy concurred with so many verses in the Alquran claiming (since 1400 yrs ago) that human has edited the Holly Taurat (Torah) and Injil. As academician he need to study The God creations, after that only to talk about whether The God do exist or not based on these facts.

[machangsedap]

Hi Johnny,

First of all I do not believe that one have to study theology or philosophy and become expert in order to understand and believe or not in god. Failure to understand why suffering still happen when the God is omnipotent/scient/benevolent does not make the God cease to exist. Using the same logic, I can say in the past human fail to understand the shape of the earth and think that it is flat. Does the earth flat?. No it's not!.Fail to understand mean 1 thing, need more study !

[machangsedap]

(8)

That the scientist have to answer, there must be parameters that have change. With knowledege human could overcome the problem, provided we as human being overcome our greed, ignorant and selfishness.

Allah did not intervene as He already put rules of universe in places. If He did intervene, we will call it miracle!.

[johnnyp76]

my friend,

you need to investigate philosophy and theology in critacl death. one can easily discount much of what you say in exactly the same way as with christianity. the problem of evil (suffering) is hugely problematic for anyone who thinks their god is omnipotent/scient/benevolent. this cannot be the case with the problem of suffering. you need to be much more critical, and not swallow whole that which you have been taught.

[machangsedap]

(7)

One of the pillar of faith in Islam is that a Muslim need to believe in the Qadha & Qadar. Which mean all action have consequence and in compliant with to the rules of universe that Allah has put in place.

When one parameter of a rules is change, the equation will change and the result will be different. As for the case of Tsunami, it is scientifically known that it is a result of movement of earth plate at a large scale. Why the earth move ?

[machangsedap]

(6)

Allah ask why human think that it is difficult for Him to make Human alive again for the 2nd time since He is the one who make Human alive in the first place ?

Mr Bart should extend his study on Islam, not only as a historian but also to collebrate with sceintist. Insyallah he will find the God Almighty Allah and His signature all over the place in the universe.

[machangsedap]

(5)

Where the rules are always consistence such as the movement of the Sun and the Moon, the creation of a human from a sperms until it become a complete human being, and Allah did ask (in Alquran) people to study his creation and use their intellectual to jugde His 'signature'.

Allah said that He is the one who create human from nothing, after male and female sperms get together they go through many stages to become human and the person will return(die) to Him.

[machangsedap]

(4)

How to find God?, as a historian I do believe he cannot, The Bible says that Jesus is the son of God but Bart found out that the Bible is tainted with errors and human's edition.

We cannot see the God but we can see His 'signature' anywhere in the universe. Scientist call it the law of Universe, Athiest do believe that all these laws do happen naturally,

While for Muslim, Allah clearly stated in The Alquran that He created these laws and set the rules of the universe.

[machangsedap]

(3)

Using the same logic :

There are so many modern laws of universe that we as a human being could not understand in the past, does that mean the universe in the past are without the gravity law, the energy equation law etc ?. No ! they are already there in the past. We just dont understand !. Scholars like Newton, Einstein etc did for us.

[machangsedap]

(2)

On this video, I do believe he speak beyond his authority when he believe there is no God.

Why is it? he speak about the powerful and loving God do nothing about human suffering and nature disaster,mentioning that he dont understand why God did so thus he concluded that there is no God.

I can say that, this is not a scholary conclusion but an ignorant. Eventhough Bart dont have knowledge to understand the God, it does not mean the god did not exist.

[dmosier]

Great interview with a great guest.

Subscribed.

[CRoadwarrior]

Bart is just another "Jesus Seminar" advocate who apparently thought he was a true Christian. But the Spirit of God, who causes regeneration, does not work this way. God does not birth kids who later turn on Him.

[omnipotence99]

my friend this explains why there are so many contradictions in the bible. keep searching for the truth with an open heart. find the religion without ANY contradictions. whose book is the same from the original 1400 years back. May God lead us all to the right path.

[CRoadwarrior]

I know of no true contradictions in the Bible. I know of many CLAIMS to contradiction, but half the time they are in the minds of those who make things up out of thin air. Other times a little research will show that the contradiction disappears with deeper study or simply thinking clearly.  So when God leads us to the "right path," we need to be willing to follow.

[myfacevids]

Croadwarrior, there are a few things you have forgotten to take into account. Today people twist what they think God said, and God allows it.. there are many exampels of this not including a sunday morning meeting. If God allows it to happen today he allowed it to happen back then. There is no proof that GOD spoke to anyone in history, only PEOPLE claiming, and each one dicrediting each other as not having heard from the ONE TRUE GOD. And so the debates go on, as their is no real proof.

[CRoadwarrior]

myfacevids. I have forgotten nothing. God allows many things, but this does not prove any point. Anything that can be twisted can also be untwisted, which takes thought and reason and study. Those too lazy to study properly remain in ignorance and deception. There is no proof that God spoke to anyone in history? LOL. That claim cannot be proved. In fact, logic dictates that when there are conflicting claims, someone is WRONG. The diligent find out who's wrong.

[myfacevids]

Yes the diligent do and its known that Christianity is built upon ASSUMPTIONS nothing more.

[CRoadwarrior]

myfacevids. Is it an assumption that throught history the Christian Bible has been called "myth" left and right, but archaeological discovery has proved such claims false? Is it an assumption that the Bible was right about the Hittites, the Hivites, the Cannanites and other ancient people, despite the critics? Is it an assumption that historians more readily trust the Christian Gospels than some "theologians"? I think you need to do some research before making grad claims about "assumptions."

[donjaundemichael]

It is quite important, I believe, if looking at biblical archeology to note the work of Israel Finkelstein. His books are written for the layman and, will put to rest any thoughts on the historical reliability of the Tanakh. The gospels are useful as historical tools, but more for the history of the evolution of Christianity, rather than historical proofs of the lives of the characters in them.

[CRoadwarrior]

It is even more important to realize that "Israel Finkelstein" is by no means the only or last word in Biblical archaeology. Since it is clear that many archaeological finds contradict the conclusions of people like Finkestein, it is also clear that an ideological bias and other factors are determining his conclusions not the facts. The Tanakh is far from historically unreliable. And as for the Gospels, we know from the works of noted scholars like Sir William Ramsay and others put to rest...

[CRoadwarrior]

...any claims about how the so-called "evolution of Christianity" is revealed instead of the historicity of the people mentioned.

[donjaundemichael]

Biblical archeology leans towords the ideas and theories of Finkelstein moreso than those that would seriously challenge his historical approach. The OT is historically reliable insofar as we understand, what was written, for what audience and what the intended result. The socio-political reality must also be taken into consideration. There is no comparison between the work of Sir Ramsay who was looking for evidence of his faith, and Dr. Ehrman who is a scholar.

[CRoadwarrior]

Finkelstein is recognized as a revisionist, meaning he tries to make things fit his agenda. The Bible isn't just historically reliable based on audience and "intended result." That makes no sense whatsoever. As for Sir Ramsay, to act as if he is has no scholarship and Ehrman is, is nonsense. If I recall correctly, the facts TURNED Ramsay from doubt TO belief as he studied the historical reliability of the texts. So no, your argument falls flat, as Ehrman is by no means "just" a scholar.

[donjaundemichael]

Livy wrote in his history of Rome, referring to a Triumph for two consuls, gave the account that was available. (labeled 3.70 in my translation) said that it was the history received and then went to say..."my own guess, tenative indeed,..." as to why it all happened the way it did. This is historical scientific writing. I am not saying Livy is accurate. His endevour is genuine. He wrote what he had, noted it was what he had to work with, and then noted his doubts as his own.

[donjaundemichael]

Now what a scientist can gleen from what Livy guessed about tells us many things, what he doubted, there is a pattern in his writing, and certainly about the values of late 1st C. Rome. Over and above the history included, we can deduce these things. Scholars have done it, Livy is thoroughly studied. As far as Prof. Finkelstein's work goes, I don't agree, often, with his conclusions, or his statements about the work of other archeologists, his emotion is not scientific, and has no pupose.

[donjaundemichael]

I do though believe his dating of the "solomonic gates" to a later period is valid. His correlation between the Benjminite cities recorded in Kings with the destruction record. The uniqueness of the cities on the East of the Jordan in this evidence, is convincing. I have heard Finkelstein described as a 'revisionist' but Ami Mazar and other archeologists respect his work even if they don't agree with it. The archeological record supports a minimal interpretation.

[donjaundemichael]

"The Bible isn't just historically reliable based on audience and "intended result." That makes no sense whatsoever" This makes perfect sense, what was written, survived, because of its value to the people that preserved it. The authors wrote it because of the value it had to them and the people it was intended. Biblical Archeology is full of people that will say "David didn't exist" or "the United Monarchy did exist" based on the Mesha stele or the Moabite stone.

[donjaundemichael]

I believe a more resonable approach is due to the record. "the Moabite stone and the Mesha Stele support the idea that later people saw the rulers of Judah, as The House of David moreover, this distinction had value to the people of Judah and surrounding communities." This is a resonable statement. Eliat Mazar's statements that the buliding she found on the Ophel, as well as her recent digs, adjacent to the wailing wall, concerning what was 10th C B.C.E. are open to interpretation.

[donjaundemichael]

To dig something up in Israel and say this is proof of the biblical record is not scientific. To say the biblical record states that this happened or that existed, and we have found evidence LIKE that is a resonable approach. Finding 3 inches of ash at Jericho does not support the statement, "this is evidence of Joshua's destruction of Jericho." Even if the dating is reasonably close.

[donjaundemichael]

Now as far as Prof. Ehrman's work goes, compared to Sir Ramsey. Well since Ramsay died before the evidence of Nag Hammadi, and The Scrolls from the Dead Sea, (which by the way, are evidence that New Testiment ideas accorded to Christ were not unique, or new.) I will say that Sir Ramsay had not all the evidence to make a statement concerning the historical validity of the Gospels or even the Letters of Paul or the book of Acts for that matter.

[donjaundemichael]

The reality of 1st C Judea is this. The Jews of the era had a tradition of writing stuff down, a very solid tradition. Now who wrote anything down that was a contemporary of Christ? John, one of twelve, the synoptics are from a common source we no longer have or know the author of. So, of twelve men, Jewish men, and then the 500 mentioned in Acts. Each laid eyes on the resurrected Messiah, everyone was waiting for, all coming from the same tradition, NO ONE WROTE ANYHTING DOWN.

[meangreen4321]

Yeah, that's right. The 500 anonymous witnesses. They obviously didn't even bother to mention the event to anyone. Why didn't the gospel traditions pick up on this?

[k0smon]

@CRoadwarrior The contradictions and errors tend to disappear when you make believe they are not there.

[CRoadwarrior]

@k0smon No, actually they disappear when true and credible scholarship and common sense are brought to bear.

[hurataimad]

this problem of suffering is extremely alien to islamic theology, thou i find it a common problem among christains.

i think the fundermental difference is the christain idea, that god is all loving, in islam god is most loving.

so a muslim will believe that god can love some1 or something, where creation can't, but doesnt rule out him hating what he hates.

whereas a christian believes god is love, so everything has to be explained throu love.

so how can u explain hell?

[MrFacet]

"so how can u explain hell? "

I suppose with blaming the opposing forces.

Doesn't the Islam have its own contradictions and peculiarities?

[hurataimad]

not unless you don't know the theology very well.

i haven't noticed any contradictions, or peculiarities in the theology, for me, it like a jigsaw puzzle, starting from the middle, everything fits, and the more pieces you place the bigger the picture gets and the more you see.

[MrFacet]

And you never have to hammer on a piece?

[hurataimad]

no! not in my personal experience, they must make some really soviet style jigsaws around ur parts.

[MrFacet]

I didn't understand that last remark. Anyway it is less easy to select the reliable info about the Islam from the hyped for me because I do not have much knowledge about it. I seem to see a lot of not so well founded flak going on between Christians and Muslims on websites about each other. What I see going on around and about mosques in Amsterdam & Rotterdam shows no higher wisdom.Even hatred.I like the duties to the poor. But done voluntary, without afterlife threats, it would be far better.

[hurataimad]

a theological study of islam will take time and effort. you will need to be discerning about the info you get, also. it's important that you don't pressume you know something, for example most acts of charity are not with any threats of punishment, other then elms giving, charity is voluntary. you will need to start from the basics and don't borrow from christain theology, for example god, revelation, prophets, miracles are different by definition, in islam.

[MrFacet]

I'm not inclined to put as much time in understanding Quran as i did on the Bible.

The quarrels I mentioned are typically the behavior that first made me doubt the foundations of Christian behavior.

What is your opinion on the content of the book called "Why I am not a muslim" by Ibn Warraq? (I only read a review by Ali Sina)

I know you will not have the same opinion but is it based on facts or are the quotes distorted, and how/why?

[hurataimad]

1.

humans tend to be hateful, violent, greed, full stop, unless you can show me a utopiun society in history, i can not see the sense in this idea that hate, violence is an islamic/judo-christain thing. the question should be, does islam make a violent person more violent, a hateful person more hateful, a greedy person more greedy? and only in your personal relations will you percieve this.

as for this ibn warraq, he is a nothing in the academic field of islamic studies.

[hurataimad]

2.

this for me poses an initial problem, but if he did have a background, which imposes respect, i would be inclined to hearing his arguements, but non the less, if a scholar has a critical view of islam, then i would hear his points out, and weigh them up, surely a religion of god can stand up to human criticism.

the existence of criticism itself isnt outside the theology of islam, non-belief is a strong theme in islam, and our existence, the idea of choice and freewill are central.

[hurataimad]

3.

but, even so, ibn warraq, why does he have more weight behind him, then let say you, or any other person, the fact he come from muslim parents doesn't give him more theological creditails, unless you are implying western scholarship has a negative bias that they can't over come.

for me, i don't believe this, but i do believe that the orientalists of past and present lack a serious amount of knowledge of islamic sciences to an embarrassing level, and i hope somehow they overcome this.

[MrFacet]

Is there some reliable rational source available then, preferably online? My searches, as said, only resulted in sites by Christians and Muslims attacking the opposed religion.

[hurataimad]

not that i am aware of, i doubt a site can give you information in a discerning manner, and most sites are designed for muslims.

our study needs to be independent, start by getting a good translation of the quran, or several, and having a muslim friend may help, i don't really know, trust is an issue.

[PeacefulApe]

Try Islam or Quran for Dummies for a book. Google scholar as well as even wikipedia should work.

[MrFacet]

Thanks peacefulape.

[MrFacet]

Blimey, I answered a frew days ago, put quite some time in it but apparently I had a comment limit I did not notice.

I did not intend to say that evil is specific to Christians/Muslims/Jews, but I am surprised how little being followers of their God does to their morality.

On Ibn Warraq, just trying to find somebody from outside the religion to explain the basics because in my experience with Christians those within the religion have problems with arguing clearly.

[hurataimad]

outside or inside the religion, the main issue is trust, is this person giving you an unbias, objective, weighted information.

i will say this, personal contact with an invidual who knows the the theology is essentail, research via sites alone will confuse you.

[jsullivan80]

I wish this guy would get on the debate track.  I would like to see him argue

[zakiechan]

He sort of is already. Just google "ehrman craig debate" and go to the first link for a transcript.

[TheAtheistChrist]

Excellent Scholar! Excellent Teacher! Excellent Book! Go Ehrman!

[agentlowe007]

Ehrman is a fresh breath of view, thinking and awesome research!! Finally, after 31 years I was able to find my soul mate!!!