The fact that a Hitler reference was used blows my mind, it's hilarious. Not surprising it's the Liberal who does it. You know you've won the argument when people start talking about Hitler.
freedom of religion (which is not granted as freely in all of their homecountries even for different muslim groups like Alevites Sunnites Schiits) but do not give a fuck about the fact, that these freedoms were earned and fought for, for hundreds of years by people like Steyn who do not tell people what to do and think - but don't let themselves be told either! If we shut up people like Steyn to appease one group or the other - we might as well ask the pope to edit the NYT!!!
They come to a western country and tell us what we may say or write (or at least they want to be the one deciding who gets to respond on how many pages!!) It's ridiculous! When Germans, Polish, Chinese or Indians... anyone really emigrated to the US (or ANY other country) they did so because they found the possibilities offered to be favourable in their new country and decided to be thankful! Many Muslims decide to take all the advatages they have here (economic, freedom of speech, welfare even
These three aren't even capable ob shutting their mounth and listen when Mr. Steyn answers a question!
They don't make the impression that one would have to watch ones back for them, but most certainly they are exactly the ones who'll just comment: "He had it coming!" when someone is beaten to death by those monkeys who deny the freedom of speech!!
They are basically saying that Whatever, WHAT-Frigging-ever Muslims want to Propagate MUST BE PROPAGATED at any cost right-away, in an unbridled way, with prime importance even if they are random Islamic Propaganda or Fabrications or calumnies against people or organizations.
Anybody who refuses to be the facilitator of Islam in its progress toward Hegemony or Imperialism or whatnot, IS THE CRIMINAL, Hate-monger, Racist, Bigot, Xenophobic [and bla bla bla].
the human rights commission is an anti-democratic marxist creation designed to divide and rule. these commies can fuck right off. i would pay about as much attention to the university indoctrinated over-privileged retards that man (sorry is that sexist) these commisions as i do to road kill.. they are the enemy of the western world. i would spit in there faces.
Yeah all boils down to "hatespeech". Thats what the muslims usually use as an argument. Lets not talk about their own hatespeechs from their imams every friday. Islam think it can conquer the west through the legalsystem. But it will end soon.
They have no right to be in the west, and are abusing the west.
Islam has no place on earth, and should be fought every day. See how it warps minds, and perverts people.
Interesting session, but I really want to see a debate about the substance of Islam. Why doesn't Islam send its best to debate the anti-Islamic crowd's best in a moderated civil airing of all this stuff. For instance, I want to know is Islam going to dominate the West? Will Islam enforce Sharia law in that case? Do westernized (moderate) Muslims really want to blend or are they in favour of Islamic states? Would an Islamic state permit other religions or alcohol or freedom? Please do it.
@gfsugar2plus I think it makes more sense to give Islamic immigrants the benefit of the doubt, then it does, as some others on here are doing,(not you) making a conspiracy theory. They could have Islamic Fundamentalism and Sharia Law much more easily if they were to stay in their own country. They've looked at our society, Canada, and liked it for what it is, which is probably why they chose to come here.
@TheProvocative9 What are you talking about? Do you propose that your response constitutes an answer to my questions? I don't know why Muslims come here. Are you saying it's because they reject Islam? Not likely! You clearly don't have the answers. I again ask for a clash of titans. Let's hear what the benefits and the risks are of colliding two such diverse cultures in a short time frame. I know what happened to the natives when European culture arrived. Is that what's in store for us.
@gfsugar2plus I'm saying the Islamic in Canada overwhelmingly support our Canadian democratic values, which is why they chose to come here and to stay over generations. Islam and democracy are not incompatible(the Arab Spring). There will be moderates and extremists in any religion, Islam included. I'm an atheist(a rapidly growing group in Canada). My ideal is obviously no religion. I enjoy logic, and I don't see why Islamics should be singled out and stigmatized as conspirators against us all.
@TheProvocative9 "I don't see why Islamics should be singled out and stigmatized as conspirators against us all" I guess you've been asleep these past 10 years. You think all that security at the airport is for drug smugglers? Sure Abeedah and Abbud, devote Muslims, aren't necessarily blowing themselves up, but they aren't straining themselves to protest against those actions either. Abeedah and Abbud will follow the directions of their Imam. Any guess what that is?
@gfsugar2plus You should look at the Muslim Canadian Congress website and what it has said against terrorism and extremism. While it's certainly not justification for terror, foreign policy for the Middle East has been a bloody failure for civilians there. Even before war, there was a brutal economic sanction regime which left half a million children dead in Iraq. Madeline Albright the U.S. secretary of state at the time said it was "worth it". Bin Laden: killed because of military intelligence.
Now open Quran 9:29 and read muslim command kills, time limit and how big the domination requires to be.
Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled. Q9:29
Hundreds of Muslims defied a French street prayer ban which came into force Friday, taking to the streets and sidewalks of Paris to pray. The French government announced Thursday it was banning praying outside, with officials pledging to enforce the ban.
But 200 Muslims ignored the street prayer ban and prayed on the streets, saying they have their own law= sharia
>>>Surprise! They don’t give a shit about any other laws.
Don't these freaks know that south of the border, Americans have the first amendment? This crap wouldn't even make it on the air in America. What a bunch of sensitive college grads.
Ok, I'll put in my two cents: If muslims (or foreigners in general) don't integrate, or get involved in criminal acts, they should be deported immediately.
Or verses like 8:12 "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle." It doesn't say those who attack you, but those who "DISBELIEVE"!! How much more clear should it get?! Muslims are very justified if they attack unbelievers and behead them. You should prove why they shouldn't in light of this and many more verses
I am not even giving my analysis here!It is not my analysis. Quran 4:34 allows men to beat their wives for example!Not only allows but even recommend it in case they fear their disobedience. This neither my opinion nor analysis. This is a plain fact. Now if some "expert" wants to come and say that there is nothing wrong with it that is by definition his own opinion which I neither share nor care much for!
Do you approve that as a punishment for theft and killing people should be blinded by having their eyes plugged out, hand and feet cut and not cauterized and buried up to their neck to die of their injuries!? Is that not barbarity. It is not even "an eye for an eye"!
I meant your sources also use "my sources"!!! So I use theirs and my source directly and make my own conclusion. Besides you most certainly put down my sources saying that they are from 900AD and people in harvard know better as if they have some time machine to teleport themselves to 7th and 8th century and find out for themselves what was going on.
Do you approve of cutting people's hand and feet from opposite side (for what ever reason!)? What kind of instruction is that?! In you enlightened opinion this is not barbarity?!
I think if any one reads these horror in Quran and Hadith and history and comes to the conclusion that it is all fine there is some problem with his sense of morality! Do you approve of men beating their wives?
How can one read stuff like the verse about wife beating, or the one condoning sex with minors, or calling jews and christians accursed and telling people to cut the hands and feet of the mischief makers on earth from the opposite side, and making war booty lawful to Muslims and also women captives as sex slaves and on and on... and still come up to the conclusion that Quran is a great book and has nothing to do with terrorism?
I have the right to critisize ....ANY religion.......these 3 idiots are crying the usual "hurt feelings" crap.....too bad....stop crying and suck it up. They get mad when people talk about thier so called "religion of peace".....the reason it's talked about SO much is it's NOT a religion of peace.....ISLAM by definition of itself is totalitarian in it's idealogy....anyone speaking against is dubbed "islamiphobic".......to shut us up
Media in muslim countries constantly use Christianity when making reference to the west or Nazi war crimes and the muslims who come to the west have been brought up on this diet of lies and so continue to both think and say that the West and Christianity is this or that. I don`t think this bothers those over offended muslim lawyers at all.
@FeignofCordor Exactly!! Well said. As I wrote to massers we who grew up in Islamic countries have been taught an alternate reality as history, science, comparative religions and even our own religion! Now that we are in the freedom of the west we have a DUTY to educate ourselves and go access primary sources and educate ourselves non stop before we open our mouth and parade our ignorance for all to see.
@FeignofCordor For Muslims history of east/west aggression starts with Crusades! But the Islamic conquests and Muslims' horrific atrocities from the time of Muhammad in Persia, Syria, North Africa, India, etc. is no biggy! In fact they talk about it as if all these lands were eternally their birthright! No shame is expressed at Islamic imperialism. In fact they are quite proud of it. But Crusades? British empire? America? All evil and the cause of all maladies in Muslim land! victim mentality!
Ultimately I despise those who let muslim immigration get to such high numbers that they threaten our culture in a way it has never been threatened before . So much so that some muslims don`t even bother to hide their islamic imperial plans for our kids future more over they boldly shout it whilst mocking our low birth rates. and all the while the Government and pro immigration marxist idiots turn a blind eye to the hate coming from muslims and attack and arrest those opposing voices
I condemn Muslim extremists who commit crimes and break the law. I would probably ask for as harsh a sentence for them as for any other person convicted of the same crime. But exactly the same applies to any criminal, thug, extremist, nutcase. I still don't get why you're equating an religion of 1 billion people, many probably much more qualified and respected than you, to a rag tag bunch of terrorist/extremist criminals. Just because Breivik was Norwegian does not mean all Nords will go kill
@massers When are you guys going to get it?! Thank Allah who send you one single Breivik to have something to point finger at when tens of thousands of Muslim terrorist murders are brought up by critics! I grew up in Iran and also studied Islamic scriptures (Hadith), Islamic history AND Quran. First of all those "extremist" are doing exactly what their Islamic sources are telling them to do.
@ritamalik 10's of 1000's? Who exactly are you referring to. Breivik committed a heinous crime, the number of terrorists that have hijacked the name of Islam and committed crimes like that is in its mere 100's. You probably mean people who sympathise with extremist ideologies. Like the taliban for example. Yes they're in there 1000's I agree. But really, one Breivik. Are you thick? You know how much support far-right fascist Christian and white supremist groups have? BNP, EDL, White Knights? 50k
@massers@massers No sir! You are the thick one! Read recent reports from the State Department about 10s of thousands of Muslim on Non Muslim attacks around the world in the year 2010 only!
Do not play dumb and pretend that one Breivik can equate all of that. Islamic violence is a BIG international problem. The so-called white supremacism is a tiny tiny minor problem in comparison!
@ritamalik Oh wait, are you getting confused by Palestinian unarmed boys attacking heavy Jewish artillery and confusing that with Muslim vs Non-Muslim? Or Iraqi kids having to fight American soldiers? Please list the attacks - 9,11 / suicide bombs in PAKISTAN killing MUSLIMS. seriously. List them. Do you know how many hate crimes are committed by white supremists in the UK and Germany alone? Shops destroyed, kids beaten up, not just to Muslims but minorities. It is a MASSIVE problem.
@massers ! I am not talking Palestine at all! Are you aware sir how many Christians in places in Iran, Suda, Pakistan, Nigeria, Indonesia, Egypt, Lebanon, etc are subject to constant harassment, violence, murder, threat and all kinds of horrific discrimination by their Muslim neighbors? If you are against these acts sir what are you doing here arguing with me on youtube? You should be confronting those many many of your muslim brothers who are committing these act all over Muslim world!
@ritamalik wow, and based on that you think it is ok to demean, harass and humiliate muslims? the most petulant argument of fighting fire with fire. the people who do that in these countries are doing exactly what Islam tells them NOT to do. So, you're pointing out some bad apples and blaming an entire civilization from it. Ofcourse you are a jaded and biased individual who wants nothing else but to preach hate
@massers I am baffled by the likes of you! First when you criticize any religion in this world the adherents of those religion never come and say "Hey!You are preaching hate! You want to humiliate all of us!" No! They answer to the criticism by PROVING from their texts and history etc. that the critic is not correct! So stop whining and start to show some prove! Second I have studied Islam EXTENSIVELY and I can assure you that those people are doing exactly what Islam tells them to do!
@ritamalik How are you so sure I have not studied Islam extensively. Ofcourse they are issues that need to be updated. I, like any intelligent individual, understand that for Islam, and also understand that for virtually every single philosophy or ideology or religion. But, the problem with you is, you only focus on the negative of Islam and try exceedingly hard to malign it every chance you get. So, ofcourse you are giving clear evidence of hatred and angry views, which just make me sorry for u
@massers Should I yet again repeat my example of Hitler for you or will you get it finally! I don't care how many good things here and there you bring. You should first say all the barbarities that have been commanded or approved such as wife beating, raping female captives, fighting unbelievers where ever you find them, etc.. are not there or are somehow justified! Besides 99% of Bukhari was not good. There was SUCH nonsense and mombo jumbo there apart from the really bad and some good parts!!
What do you mean updated?! Islam is the teachings of Quran and Muhammad! Not what messeres or Majid Nawas etc.. want it to be! Even if you invent such updated Islam where is the guarantee that millions of fanatical hot headed Muslims are going to give up Muhammad and follow you?! They probably will announce you Murtad and will kill you!
@massers I know that you have not studied Islam extensively because you say such things like 99% of Bukhari is good, or that non-muslims killed Muhammad's family. In general if you had studied Islam you couldn't have been the nice guy that you sound to be in your texts and still believe in Islam! I consider it IMPOSSIBLE! Muhammad was a bloodthirsty and tyrannical and sexually obsessed man! You cannot read the Hadith and Sira and not come out with horror and remain a good person!
@massers And so far again you are pushing your silly fallacy that if there is some good in Islam then that means that Islam in general is good! I already explained that this line of reasoning is bogus! I enumerated several examples of Muhammad and righteous Khalif's glaring misdeeds. You offered no rebuttal. You just say there is some good in Islam therefor we must close our eyes on the really bad stuff! It just needs updating!! That is the jest of what you are saying. It doesn't wash with me.
@ritamalik I apologise for not responding to your comments in detail as I have been extremely busy. I have had the chance to briefly read them and for example you say things like Islam and the prophet preach the raping of pre-pubescent girls? my god, really? and then you expect me to take you seriously. What are the chances all of your evidence is full of blatant lies like this? You wanted me to address each of your points systematically and when I have time I will, be rest assured.
@massers source for Muhammad sending people to kill others in their own homes: Sahih Bukhar Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369. It is the narration of the murder of Kab Ibn Ashraf. You can check it out yourself. It is to long for me to write it here.
Muhammad also in Al Tabari's history he orders the assassination of a Medinan poetess who wrote poems agains him. I don't have my Al Tabari book here with me and I don't know any online pages which has the text of his book. But as soon as I will get my hands on it I will write you the volume and page and chapter and everything. In general Muhammad dealt with people who spoke against him with pure terror like a mafia boss. Exactly the same way Muslim fanatics behave to say Muhammad cartoonists.
@massers The truth of Islam hinges on Muhammad! He claims to hear Jibrelil.No one else has heard him. Quran calls him the OSWA HASANA or perfect example for mankind. Even a few sins and misdeeds from him will totally disprove his case for prophethood! And when we open pages of Hadith and history we see not one or two minor sins but many many bloody and dirty acts not to mention bogus stuff. He was a killer! He forced people to Islam by sword on their neck. Tell me why I should think well of him!
@ritamalik In the meantime, please stop assuming you're the only one who can read and has access to primary sources or even analysis that accesses primary sources. Please do me a favour and read this book: Stephen Sheehi, Islamophobia: The Ideological Campaign Against Muslims. Atlanta, GA: Clarity Press, 2011. Before you discard it as "leftist" god-knows-what, just understand what I am trying to say. I have not practised any religion in many years, my problem with you is bias and prejudice
@massers Listen you already started distorting my statements! I said Islam condones HAVING SEX with pre-pubecent girls, not "preaches rape" of pre-pubecent girls! And the condoning is in the Quran itself! Read no book by any "Islamophobe" but Quran 65:4 (surat talaq) and then read tafsir of giant scholars like Ibn Abbas and Ibn Kathir and then come back and tell me if I was wrong!
@ritamalik I am sorry but it is you who is wrong again. It does NOT condone having sex with pre-pubescent girls but it condones marrying them. At the time that these laws were made, this had to do with reasons such as care, if their fathers had died and young girls were married and moved to the house. However, if you read the very same surat you are flaunting, it says "marry" yes but NOT consummate the wedding till puberty. what is wrong with you! you are saying I am distorting? shame on you
@massers If you tell me that these sources are fake or wrong or unreliable then we are left with nothing what so ever to know Muhammad was and what he did and what his Islam looked like. Islam then will be a lost religion.
@massers I pity you good people who are Muslims. Your task is a difficult one indeed. You are like a lawyer who is defending a murderer who has been caught with the bloody knife in his hand and ripped his victim's stomach in front of several witnesses. Now your job is to cast doubt on all of that straight forward testimony, hide the evidence, and dissemble like craze to try to make him like victim or excuse his act so that you prevent him from getting a life sentence! It is a really hard task!
Of course I don't think as part of your defense case in a court you could say "Yes your honor. He did spill this guy's guts with this knife and he did try to run away, and he did it all premeditated, but other than that he is a nice guy 99% of the time! You see! He takes care of the orphans and feeds the fasting, and greets everyone cheerfully! So let him go free! after all he needs to be a little bit updated about good manners!" I wonder how much success you can have with that case!!Good Luck!
@ritamalik You have an extremely poor and crassly thought out analogy here. Let me try and clarify the issue for you as I guess maybe you're just blinded in hatred and are using one human being and their actions as an analogy for an ideology. If a terrorist who claims to align himself with Islam commits murder and spills guts with a knife as you say, ofcourse there is no room for leniency, regardless of how nice he is. However that has nothing at all to do with an ideology.
@massers To compare Islam with other "civilizations" is silly since Islam is not a civilization. It is an ideology. What people call "Islamic civilization" these days was a mix of different cultures and civilizations from many different countries who were conquered by Arab armies of Muhammad's followers and were converted to Islam mostly by a sword on their neck. Ancient Iranian historians have documented the horrors of Arab invasion which started under Omar Ibn Khattab.
About Quran 65:4 you are very wrong. The reason this aya mentions the 3 months waiting period is in order to make sure that the woman is not pregnant! And scholars agree with me! If a marriage is not consummated why on earth they have to wait three months to make absolutely sure that the girl is jot pregnant? A girl right before her first period can get pregnant because you first ovulate and then have your first period. So she could be pregnant
@massers besides it is silly to say that people had to marry in order to take care of orphan girls! They could easily adopt them like without having sex with them and Quran could easily ban having sex with them. But instead it says it is OK! Just if you decide to divorce them wait 3 month so that you can be sure they are not pregnant and if some man marries them there would not be any paternity issues.
My bringing up Yazid killing Hussain was in answer to your claim that I was a dimwit since only non-Muslims killed Muhammad's family. You said that in response to my statement that the early Muslims didn't wait long after Muhammad's death to fight amongst one another brutally and even didn't spare Muhammad's close family. Hence Yazid and Hussain and Aisha and Ali's example. I guess you owe me an apology for calling me "thick" and "dimwit" since by your own admission I was right!
@ritamalik I did not mean to call you thick or dimwitted. If I did, it may have come out in a flurry since I felt you were missing my point, which is not to blindly defend every single facet of Islam and consider it a religion of angels. Of course I accept there are problems, as there are in every single society, philosophy, ideology, religion, civilization or however you want to classify human communities. My point maintained is we can sit and nit pick/dissect any group of people
@massers Also the analogy of the killer with a knife was about islam which openly teaches hate and brutality to vast segments of human population, teaches misogyny, and has a bloody history, but some like yourself say that never the less it is bigotry to call it barbaric and criticize it because it also says feed the orphan and greet people and pay charity! I just wanted to point out that Islam's brutality is such that already disqualifies it as a valid ideology and the good parts can't save it
@massers Calling out an ideology which teaches lots of brutality, misogyny and killing to its follower from which many societies Muslim and non- Muslim are suffering is not bigotry or "nit picking". It is called finding the source of the problem!
@ritamalik I already pointed this out to you before, but I guess I'll have to repeat it. Brutality is your choice of word, teaching self-defence and war tactics is something that I agree Islam has taught, but so has every ideology with regards to self-defence. This by the sword analogy is a modern term coined recently and sounds quite hokey. You have found no source of the problem, as you're denying the 99% of verses that preach love, charity, tolerance, community building, peace, caring
@massers NO, NO NO,! Where do you think the Harvard or Cambridge historian gets his material? He was not there 600 years ago to see what was happening! He has to consult sources contemporary to the events that he writes about or at least the oldest and thus closest to the event if an eyewitness account is not available! Besides why you Muslims think all these Western scholars know Islam better than the scholars of Islam and all the Muslim sources?
@ritamalik Oh please, I don't want to call you "thick" or anything again (even though you called me "silly" just a few posts before), but I know for a fact that academics (some I've met) have worked with exactly the same sources you mentioned, and spent YEARS analyzing them in detail, probably unlike you who is looking at them with maybe a few years of individual effort. These same sources you mention have been critically studies and discussed in academic settings with many experts (east & west)
@massers Ibn Ishaq's Sira is the oldest biography of Muhammad. Most of it is lost of course but lots of it is recorded in Ibn Hisham and Al Tabari! He was their mother source. Then we have the Sahih Ahadith which are much later but muslim's swear by them so to discount them is unfair. We have no older than these sources Nobody who lived hundreds of years later can know what happened back then without consulting these sources!
@ritamalik Yes, and the academic I pointed out has spent a career analyzing these very sources you mention as well as countless others in the years after that, and other contemporary sources. He has also compared these with historical accounts from other contemporary cultures. I could name at least 30 academics who have done the same and spent their lifetimes researching this (google them!) (surely 100's more). So, wouldn't you agree that their analysis is probably more trustworthy than yours?
@massers I am giving clear evidence against your views from history and Islamic sources and logic. But you are just whining! You are trying to attack my character as "hateful" and"angry" this is the fallacy of ad hominem. Means you attack the person instead of his evidence and arguments. Muslims love this fallacy! It is very popular amongst you guys! You attack the messenger instead of dealing with his message! You are discrediting Islam for all to see by not having any good argument!
@ritamalik I apologise if you felt I was attacking you. I wasn't. I was just pointed out that a lot of your posts were turning a blind eye to a very simple point I was making. there is immense evidence of the troops of persians, greeks, vikings, romans, americans, germans, russians committing heinous crimes in the name of war. Every single historian will agree that the lives lost, women raped, villages burned and cultures obliterated are FAR outweighed possibly by all these compared to islam
Didn't Ayesha and Ali go to war? Didn't Yazid kill Hosein ibn Ali? Didn't Muhammad force people of Arabia to become muslim by sword? Didn't he ordered torture of people? Didn't he order people to go kill people in their homes? Didn't he attack Meccan caravans for booty? Didn't he kill all male Jews of Khaibar? Didn't Abu Bakr go to the battles of Redda to force people to pay him Zakat? Tell me? Which one of these historical facts are not facts. And which one is not a shame to Islam?
@ritamalik Yeah but you make Ayesha and Ali going to war sound like no two tribes/villages/clans/brothers/counties have ever gone to war with each other in the history of human civilization and war. Are you really that naive. have you not read of stories of rival clans/generals fighting each other with much blood shed and immense consequences in the history of EVERY culture. It would be inane and almost childish for me to actually point that out. Which educated person does not know that?
Respond to this video... Didn't Yazid kill Hosein? OK so he did, and what exactly does that prove? Don't you get it. I'm not saying Muslims are angels. I'm not saying they never went to war. I never said that. Not a single educated Muslim who has read history and the affairs of the world will say that. I'm just pointing out why you would use such examples to isolate Muslim history from a completely parallel and well-aligned history that matches the very core of human civilization
Respond to this video... I will be very disappointed if you come back and take a swipe at me again, leaving little comments like "I'm whining" and I have no evidence and its "fools" like massers who don't bother reading and spread fallacy bla bla (ok maybe u didn't call me a fool) you have been very decent and articulate in your arguments, but you have also criticized my overall approach, then turned around and said that I am attacking you and not the message. Well I hope you are seeing
Respond to this video... OK, we'll go step by step. No, he did not order the torturing of people. This is in line with historians from both the east and the west. It has been documented countless times that the prisoner of war regimens practised during Mohamed's times all the way up to the first 400 hundred years of the caliphate were exemplary, most renowned and serious historians will agree that they out rank the prisoner treatment of a VAST majority of contemporary armies.
@ritamalik Didn't he order people to go and kill others in their homes? Are you serious? Please I would like to see verifiable evidence for this statement. It sounds so hokey, I don't even feel I need to try and refute it. However, I can guide you to a hundred books and analysis, hundreds, by renowned scholars in the great western tradition which you seem to look up to immensely, non-muslims westerners, heads of history departments at famous universities who would outright dispute this point
@ritamalik I have so much more to say to you. But, I am extremely busy at the moment. For example, the other points you have mentioned here are not backed by verifiable fact. There is no evidence in any properly researched history book of Mohd ordering the attack of caravans for booty. This is actually a waste of my time going through bizarre claims like this. Just rubbish. I'm disappointed. Say true things like yes they fought wars, like EVERY other culture. sigh. prove how u are not biased?
If these are indeed these historical facts (which they are and if you dare deny them I will post all the references for all the world to see) then why talking about them is "hateful"? Why it is somehow improper to bring them up? Don't we talk about the sack of Rome, WWII, and all other historical events without censorship? Why should Islam have such privileged status that even when critic can prove every word that he says he should somehow bite his tongue and tone it down or say nothing at all?
@massers Are you ashamed of your religion? Are you angry because some informed Kafirs bring up stuff in your religion that you rather remain hidden? If these facts that I mentioned made you so ashamed then why are you following such a religion? If you can already sit in judgement of your religion and saying it needs this or that updating doesn't it mean that you already are more moral and advanced than your religion? So your values inform your religion not the other way around. Think about that!
@ritamalik I am not ashamed of being born into a Muslim family even though I haven't practised Islam for over 10 years. If you had joined this comment thread originally, you wouldn't be making such out of context remarks. My involvement in these threads was to do with a video clip and you have moved towards Muslim bashing. But, I'll humor you - I started responding to these posts when I showed "kafirs" posts like yours and those preceding yours, and it was they who pointed out the bigotry
It doesn't matter if i'm following Islam or not. I am speaking in defence of it because I completely and fully think that a vast majority of your claims unfortunately are wrong, and you are unable to distinguish the natural trajectory of Islam as a civilization and ideology that is parallel with a vast majority of other cultures. You are unable to say that if a muslim man has killed in the battle field, then 1000 times that have not happened in other instances of war. That is your fallacy
And those shameful facts are facts not because I say it but because the history testifies! You might put your head in the sand. But if you dare look them up. They are right there in the texts. Even in Quran! Who can deny that it commands killing of non- muslims and wife beating and even condones sex with pre-pubesant girls! READ IT! Read the Tafsir as well! You are better than your religion masser. You don't need to degrade yourself to this degree to defend such shameful indefensible system!
@massers Please don't refer me to modern books and general statements like "historians say". Bring me primary sources! Today's historians cannot make up stuff as they go. They have to refer to old historic sources. We have access to the same sources ourselves and need not their opinion. We can read them and make up our own mind. And I have and I hardly saw anything that didn't turn my stomach.
@ritamalik why shouldn't I refer to modern textbooks and historians? Are you saying that an Iranian historian from the year 900 AD is any more or less valid than a historian from the 1800s or even 1900s at Harvard, Cambridge or the University of Cairo? If you are being judgemental about the sources of knowledge then doesn't it make it easy for me to say you're biased. And you pointed out one obscure historian, why don't you look up Professor Yasir Suleiman's work at Cambridge.
@massers No because I trust my own brain! I tend to do my own research instead of lending my brain to others to fill it. Besides all you are doing now in classical logic is called the fallacy of appeal to authority. Which means again instead of proving the arguments wrong you are just saying here and there so and so scholar disagrees with you. Why he disagrees (maybe his reasons are silly) maybe he has agendas of his own, etc.. we no not!
@massers Besides this appeal to authority is a useless games because there are always "scholars" on both sides of an issue and then the argument will become a battle of scholars and "my scholar is better than your scholar" and "your scholar is agenda driven mine is pure" etc...
@massers So instead please tell me why it is OK that Muhammad the supposed perfect example for mankind comes out unequivocally acting like a mafia boss. Read Al Tabari. There also you will see very clearly that his so called Maghszi were nothing but caravan ambushes and raids. It is not that difficult. You can order all the several volumes of Al Tabari on Amazon translated to English although I read it in Farsi. Read that and them tell me if you agree with me more or with those scholars.
@massers Besides the VAST MAJORITY of the fatality in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are Muslim on Muslim violence. Shias killing Sunnis, Sunnis killing Shias, stricter Muslims killing less strict Muslims. You Muslims can't treat your own brethren a lot better than you treat infidels really! Which sad!
@massers Untrue!most of Quran is primary a rehash of the Bible+ teaching fear and hatred of the other. "Allah doesn't love" is a commonly repeated phrase.It has some nice advices but it is also laced with horrific ones.It commands war with many groups of people and teaches hatred of them very deeply.It teaches misogyny and sex with women captives. It is also full of sadistic descriptions of hell.Love of god is only for Muslims. What more should a books say before you say it is a very bad book!
@ritamalik Oh my god you're completely mad. I'm sorry but I have to stop this conversation with you because you just keep coming out and churning lies and I've maintained complete decency and space for normal discussion in this conversation. You are free to say what you want, its OK, but I've not met a single other person who thinks this way and has read the Quran. And I've talked to 100s, 100s of people, religious, non-religious across the board, not ONE has your interpretation as in this post
Defensive was tactics? Quran clearly teaches offensive warfare and the best evidence of it is the fact than in matter of 11 year Muhammad conquered ALL of Arabia and started to attack boarders of Roman Empire and Persia and in few years the capital city of Islam was Damascus, a formerly Roman city. They also took over Persian empire. The Romans and Persians had NOTHING to do with Muslims. Why did they attack them? They say it in their history book. They did it to glorify Allah by spreading Islam
@ritamalik Just the fact that you would try and isolate white supremacism and focus instead on spewing text upon text of hatred against Islam kind of contradicts what you claim you stand for. dont you think? you feel it is ok to criticize others effusely yet diffuse and marginalize other issues that may be very critical. what do you have to say about that?
@massers Just look at Islamic history! Muhammad's body was hardly in grave yet when his devoted followers started to kill each other! Even Muhammad's family wasn't spared! If these were the best generation of Islam what else would you expect of Muslims today!
@ritamalik oh my god you're so misguided his followers didn't kill each other you dimwit it was non-muslims who attacked his family and other muslims. sigh.
@massers No sir read the earliest histories of Islam. And go through Sahih Hadith your eyes will be opened! Ali the 4th "rightly guided"khalif for example went to battle against Aisha the beloved wife of Mushammad in the battle of the camel. Then there was the battles over khelafa between Ali and Moaviyyah, and don't forget that Othman the 3rd Khalif was killed by a relative of Omar who was a muslim. Examples like these abound! There is no room here for me to write. Just go and read the history!
What you did above by listing a few good deeds in order to "prove" that Islam is good is a fallacy! If a thought system has a few good things it doesn't make it good! I
@ritamalik hahaha u sad misguided and thoroughly misinformed individual. these sahih bukhari hadith that you're parroting why don't you look through the whole book and you will see 99% good things and yes (I agree) some contentious things which I agree should be updated with the times, just like all cultures have aspects which are out of sync and need work by modern society. But, if you wont, then when I get time, I will quote all the 1000's of good things that will overshadow your petty finds
I give you an example. Adolf Hitler was a great lover of classical music, and he also started a social system of medicine for germany and also brought them out of a great depression. But when we evaluate his life we don't talk about those things much because we don't think they matter in light of the great evils that he perpetuated.
@massers So in order for you to exonerate Islam you should not bring forth a few examples of rather good deeds that it might have commanded but you should show us why it is OK when Quran and Hadith allow Muslim to have sex with captive women, plunder other tribes, force people to become Muslims, etc.... all recorder in the earliest sources of Islam. In light of these horrific teachings who cares if they are also commanded to greet of look after orphans!?
@massers The beginning of the hostilities between Mecca and Medina also was exactly Muhammad's fault! It is stated very clearly in the books of Ibn Hisham and Al Tabari that Meccans were very happy and relieved when Muhammad and muslims decided to move Medina. It says in Al tabari "Meccan's said we are relieved from him!" So they were quite happy to forget all about him. But then Muhammad started to raid their caravans. That is how the Maghzi started! Not the other way around!
And never forget that Muhammad was preaching in Mecca for 13 years, also using very rude and harsh words about the religion of the Meccans and they tolerated him. In history books there is no sign that they ever laid a finger on him. They were upset by the fact that he was very rude to them, but they never really prosecuted him. But what did he do to the Meccans and Jews and others who didn't accept him when he had the power? He forced them to become Muslim or die!
@massers Arabian peninsula was full of people of other religions. There were Jews in Kheibar and Medina, pagans all over the place, Christians in Najran, Sabians in Yemen, etc... And Muhammad when he became powerful enough decreed that they should all convert or die until the all of Arabia belongs to Allah! What happened to "there is no compulsion in religion?"ha? It was abrogated! No muslim is supposed to follow that! Best evidence? Muhammad didn't follow it anymore either!
@massers Now in light of that you are surprised that Muslims in Sudan and Iran Iraq Nigeria and elsewhere don't treat their non-muslim neighbors peacefully!?Muhammad is the reason!Quran is the reason! Hadith and Sira history testifies to it! According to Islam they are not bad apples! They are the good apples! They follow Muhammad! You are the bad apple! You are the Monafegh! You should be fighting unbelievers not chatting with them Youtube! Think about that! Do you want to follow such RELIGION?
@massers And then I forgot to add on the issue of killing Muhammad's family that Yazid ibn Moaviya the 5th Khalif killed Hosain ibn Ali the grand son of Muhammad. Ali himself was killed by Ibn Moljam who was a very devout Muslim. Ali was the son in law and cousin of Muhammad. So they were not even respected enough by Muslim community to even be kept alive for the sake of Muhammad's memory!
@massers And also don't forget that as soon as Muhammad died most Arab tribes that Muhammad forced to become Muslim and pay him Khums and Zakat (of course!!) decided that they no longer want to be Muslim and won't give their taxes to Abu Bakr! Thus the bloody battles of Reddah started so that Abu Bakr forced them back into Islam and into paying him money! So again what happened to "no compulsion in religion"?! Don't you tell me apostasy in Islam is not punished by death!
@massers You call me misguided!Tell me who misguided me?Quran or the books of Sahih Muslim, Sahih Bukhari, Sunan Abu dawood, The history by Muhammad ibn Jarir Al Tabari, etc... which one of these Zionist agents were responsible for my misguidance? Which one of them has lied? How are all these ancient texts written by devout Muslims misguiding me? And should I believe them or you an unknown biased and clearly ill educated Muslim on Youtube comment section who is not giving any evidence either!
@massers Sorry at some point I called Yazid Ibn Moawiya the 5th Khalif.He was the 6th since his father Moawiya ibn Abu Sufyan was the 5th who came after Ali though a bit overlapped with him also. I thought I correct it fast since Muslims usually pick on a minor typo or non-sequitor mistake of a critic and parade it as evidence that everything else that the critic is saying is wrong also by the same token which is a totally bogus and illogical way or refutation, but it happens a lot with Muslims!
@massers I have a thousand things to say to you. I appreciate your systematic and calculated argument, albeit littered with flaws and weakness. I would like to do it right now but I'm going out to a club right now and really don't have the time and energy to spend a few hours calculating 15 or 16 messages. But, the thoughts and arguments are all there, crystal clear, and I will share them with you soon.
@massers You are deluded! I have also seen 100s personally who were Muslims all their lives while reading Quran like parrots in Arabic without knowing what it means and when for the first time read it in their own language they were shocked and disgusted and left Islam. I am by far not the only one!
@ritamalik this has nothing to do with your personal choice of being a muslim or not you nutcase. my god how long will it take me to get this across to you. i'm really sorry but you have left me with no options but to call you "thick" ..... if your friends were traumatized by what they read, I guess they're confused and weak people. I HAVE read it in English and I've just spent hours explaining to you about experts who have done the same, so my dear, I think it is you who is deluded
@massers See massers, in many many Muslim countries if a Muslim changes his or her religion (especially a woman) they are sent to an insane asylum because people think exactly like you! "How can a sane person read this perfect book Quran and not fall on your knees in worship, but instead apostatize! You must be mad!" And that is yet when they are "merciful enough not to kill him on the spot!
@ritamalik Oh please, whose being the victim now? There is no problem if you decided to leave Islam. That is your choice. I totally respect that. I already clarified to you earlier about how Islamists like Anjem Chaudry call for the killing of apostates, and they are to the Muslims, what the Ku Klux Klan is to Christians or what the Nazi's are to normal Germans. I already explained to you how Maajid Nawaz did the same and I respect that. So, what is your point?
@massers OMG! The whole point of my comments so far has been to prove to you by history and scripture of Islam that those who kill apostates are not like KKK to Christianity but they are actually the true Muslims because even though Jesus never said "linch the blacks" Muhammad did say "Kill the apostate" and there are several examples of that which I mentioned before + the wars of redda by Abu Bakr which was because Arab tribes apostatized after Muhammad's death and he forced them back to Islam.
@ritamalik sigh. ok. believe what you want. i've spent hours clarifying how these views of yours are actually untrue, they are NOT supported by any verifiable piece of information, just like the stuff you made up about breaking into homes, and looting, you're full of biased views. i've tried to prove it but you keep throwing the same thing back like some kind of broken record. to be honest, it is a bit pitiful, i dont really know what to say anymore. all i was trying to show u is stop hating ppl
@massers If you prefer to console yourself like this that is fine with me! We can stop right here. I didn't write these comments only for you but to inform Westerners who also read these pages to read the sources themselves and take no one's word. Not mine not yours, not the so called "scholars". They can judge for themselves. I think that is a fair position. And I gave my sources too. So others can check. I wish you a good life and best of luck!
@ritamalik yes I'm glad you did so. I'm sure westerners will go to analyze an iranian/persian scholar from 900AD as the source of their information against 100s of modern historians who have analyzed your iranian scholar among with 100s others and will be able to see for themselves. i'm actually glad you end that way, because it is fair. anybody who sees this will know that they can access the truth out there, and not rely on your views.
@massers I didn't mention 1 iranian scholar. There are many then I mentioned Islamic texts like Hadith, Al Tabari, and Quran itself. Please people don't forget to consult the commentary (Tafsir) of scholars like Ibn Kathir, Al Jalalain, and Ibn Abbas and the like so that Muslim sophists cannot fool you about the true meaning of the verses when it is too embarrassing for them (which is often).
@ritamalik oh boy, here she goes again. As I've said in probably 8 or 9 comments so far, and find it pitiful I have to repeat, the works of these scholars have been analyzed by highly respected historians (i've already pointed out names, insitutes, please look up their papers etc) that have pointed out in-context analysis and you point one or two things that no two scholars, even of your ancient era agree on, like a caravan booty, which most actually disagree with-
@massers Besides now I am the one who has to call you thick! Sir! In historical enquiry and research the older the source and the closer to the actual events the more valuable and reliable it is! You speak of a historian in 900AD as if being old is a bad thing. If you want to reject an old source like that you have to have a very solid reason for it. What is yours!?
@ritamalik Haha, you're like some kind of strange person who is so convinced that the one or two old books you've read you'll believe so blindly, yet not consider the analysis of that VERY SAME book by a world leader in the field. And that world leaders analysis would be subjected to rigorous enquiry and debate by a highly qualified community. (e.g Harvard and Cambridge). Not ONE supports your views. At all. So, I highly suspect your analysis of these sources. Maybe you read them wrong?
@massers Listen you are waisting my time! You clearly cannot count Quran+ Tafsir (Ibn Kathir+Jalalain+Ibn Abbas)+Hadith books (Muslim+Bukhari+Abu Dawood) +Al Tabari already make 8 books which are the core of Islamic theology and Sharia. They are no pesky trifle and give corroborating evidence which prove Islam as a barbaric religion. No matter where a person studies he has to go through them to learn about Islam and NO AMOUNT of whitewash and sophistry can make OK the stuff that I read there.
@ritamalik That is my point. I am not discrediting the source, the books are fine and I keep repeating to you that 100s of people, experts and individuals have analyzed these (I have read half of these in english) and come to completely different conclusions than you. So, these books are fine, its just how you read them. Maybe you are not understanding the context, maybe you have pre-determined views. Why are you calling a cambridge professor whitewash and sophistry? you think they're wrong?
Others can read them too and if they agree with you and your scholars then good for you! But I encourage them not to take anyone's word and read for themselves. We are not stupid minors. We can all read and make our own mind. It takes some time and energy but it is much more reliable than taking someone else's opinion as fact. We need facts not opinions!
@ritamalik certainly, well said! I completely encourage others to read all the books you mentioned, and do all the research they deem fit. I have no problems with your sources and I did not discredit them once. Its just your analysis. I find it funny you call an established community of historians and researchers at leading global centers of learning as "my sources". Haha. But yes, you're right, I encourage others to read extensively.
@massers Hei! Again you are misrepresenting.I said looting caravans not breaking into homes and looting. I said going to people's homes and assassinating them and i gave the example from Hadith Bukhari. Check the reference!! You can check it even online. Bukhari is even available online. I didn't lie! You are the lier for accusing me! Shame on you!
My point for mentioning the asylum thing is that Muslims are SO brainwashed in their own ideology that they are shocked to see someone read the same Quran and comes to the conclusion that it is not sublime and miraculous but actually false and barbaric. They think coming to such conclusion can only happen because of the person's insanity. I mentioned that because you were accusing me a few comments ago as a nut case and insane! Did you forget that already?
@ritamalik How can I forget that if you keep proving it with every comment. Sigh. I would love for you to say one sensible thing so I can not call you what I did. But you keep mounting the evidence for it back on. For example here, I'm explaining to you how non-muslim experts read the quran and come to completely different conclusions than you, yet you're badgering on with this belief that everyone is like you. its like you keep repeating the same thing even though it is so clear you're deluded
@massers Besides stop playing the fool! The problem with Islam is not only terrorism! Muslims are very demanding! In fact you take it kind of fore granted that everybody should pay homage to your religion and tiptoe around you.
@ritamalik What are you talking about? I guess you've had a bad experience with a group of Muslims, just like the other day 3 white guys yelled "get the fuck out of here you paki nigger" at me on the street and chucked a beer glass at me which shattered near my shoes. But, do you see me equate every white person with behaviour like that? Do you see me make statements about how you condone people like that if you're promoting a free license of Muslim bashing as and when you feel like?
@massers Why do you equate White (which is race) with Islam which is an ideology! There is no white race ideology! White men have many different ideologies. Race doesn't dictate how one behaves. Ideology does. And unlike race you can study an ideology and see what it teaches. Islam does teach violence against non Muslims and lots of other horrible stuff!
@massers No sir, my comments are true and therefore perfectly legitimate. I don't have to sensor myself lest some idiot wants to bash Muslims! Besides the absolute best license for Muslim bashers is the violence and barbarity of many many Muslims. Violence begets violence. I condemn it on both sides, but when your side starts bashing non Muslims in every place in the world then some more violent and less civilized people answer in kind. So instead of silencing me reign in those violent Muslims.
@massers Why Muslims rakes so much havoc for a bunch of Muhammad cartoons? Non-Muslims don't believe in Muhammad. Why should they sensor themselves when it comes to him! It is a tenant of Islam that one should not draw Muhammad which non muslims should never be subject to. But Muslims both radical and non radical don't understand and under the guise of demanding "respect" they want to force a tenant of their religion on others without batting an eye.
@ritamalik Ofcourse other cultures, religions, people ask and want respect, and they show it in different ways. But of this case I agree with you, many Muslims were hurt by Westerners openly and hurtfully taunting and jeering at them, conceptually desecrating something that means a lot to them, which I guess you don't respect. But that's OK, I agree with you. If you want to go and hurt someone go ahead. I agree, it should not be censored at all. I guess I can call people you respect whatever
@massers I am glad you agree with my point on Muhammad cartoons. That show you are a reasonable person. But let me tell you respect is not demanded. It is earned!
@massers In Ramadan in many places they demand people not to eat around them (in Iran in fact you could go to jail if you ate in public) Why? If you are not Muslim (or a non practicing Muslim) why should you be force not to eat in public? Muslim neighborhoods in many places in europe force bars to close and shops to stop selling alcohol! Why? It is nobody's business if others want to drink!
@ritamalik Oh please, Iran is the worst example of a Muslim country, I have come across 100's of young Iranians who sweat and work and fight against that face of Islam day in and day out. That is so lame. Did you know there are nearly 275,000 amish people in the US who commit polygamy, mistreat young girls, promote child labour, care less for any western technical or ideological advance, yet do you see me using them as an example of how crap the core ideology of christianity is?
@massers Friend! Go read Islamic scriptures! Islam promotes wife beating, killing apostates and infidels and lots of violence.Most Muslims are ignorant of their religion. They don't even know what is written in their own co
All the muds could come up with is Hitler and Zundel??? Wow, I guess they really do have a case...
JohnWilkesBooth1864 1 week ago
Where can i get an " i am phobia phobic" t shirt lol
spookycheeseballs 1 week ago
this is how it works.... the students are not the issue and debate that theyr offended by the articles.
but the truth hurts and they must agree that the mass of islam is the issue.
they will not ofocurse and this is the big fraud
nectemere 2 weeks ago
So it's now inappropriate to quote as Hitler as representative of what Nazis tend to think?
TheBaerista 3 weeks ago
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If fellow Americans need help understanding how serious this is?
GOOGLE This:"CAJeffO - Islam - Muslim - European Experience"
CaJeffO 4 weeks ago
Mr. Steyn remark on hitler reference: ,, I didn't even though of that one"
Was so funny.
RoadlessPath 4 weeks ago
Another debate won for Mr. Steyn.
dmbrocks27 1 month ago
The fact that a Hitler reference was used blows my mind, it's hilarious. Not surprising it's the Liberal who does it. You know you've won the argument when people start talking about Hitler.
fishblades 1 month ago in playlist More videos from AgendaStevePaikin
freedom of religion (which is not granted as freely in all of their homecountries even for different muslim groups like Alevites Sunnites Schiits) but do not give a fuck about the fact, that these freedoms were earned and fought for, for hundreds of years by people like Steyn who do not tell people what to do and think - but don't let themselves be told either! If we shut up people like Steyn to appease one group or the other - we might as well ask the pope to edit the NYT!!!
IS8x57IS 1 month ago
They come to a western country and tell us what we may say or write (or at least they want to be the one deciding who gets to respond on how many pages!!) It's ridiculous! When Germans, Polish, Chinese or Indians... anyone really emigrated to the US (or ANY other country) they did so because they found the possibilities offered to be favourable in their new country and decided to be thankful! Many Muslims decide to take all the advatages they have here (economic, freedom of speech, welfare even
IS8x57IS 1 month ago
These three aren't even capable ob shutting their mounth and listen when Mr. Steyn answers a question!
They don't make the impression that one would have to watch ones back for them, but most certainly they are exactly the ones who'll just comment: "He had it coming!" when someone is beaten to death by those monkeys who deny the freedom of speech!!
IS8x57IS 1 month ago
All races should just staying in their own lands and see how well we all do...
Himapke 2 months ago
the western world is paying for the evolution of modern islam.
Himapke 2 months ago
Islam is by nature, fascist and all about the "tribe". They do not value personal liberties such as free speech or even free will.
foamulator 2 months ago
What exatly is all this aboot?
rockyqw12 2 months ago
Qur'an about non-muslims:
Sura 7:176 "panting dogs"
Sura 7:179 "cattle" [if not worse]
Sura 8:55, 98:6 "the worst of all animals" [but for Muslims even comparison with Mosquitoes is Bad]
Sura 9:5 "Slay them wherever you find them" [for Muslims even proposal of deportation is Hate-speech]
Sura 9:73 "Their abode is hell"
Sura 46:29-35 unbelieving men are worse than demons..
Sura 30:45 allah doesn't love non-muslims..
Ban Qur'an. Isn't Qur'an the ideal Hate-speech?
Spread the Idea.
Death2Hatred 2 months ago 2
"We didn't quote adolf hitler" so???????????
Go ahead Quote him..
Who are you to set criteria for Criminalization of Critical Opinions?
Haven't you Muslims done enough?
Shame on Canada..
Restrictions on Freedom of Speech..Pretty soon(If it hasn't already) it'll be tantamount to restrictions on Criticisms of Islam.
ban Hate-speech?
Ban Qur'an first!
Death2Hatred 2 months ago
They are basically saying that Whatever, WHAT-Frigging-ever Muslims want to Propagate MUST BE PROPAGATED at any cost right-away, in an unbridled way, with prime importance even if they are random Islamic Propaganda or Fabrications or calumnies against people or organizations.
Anybody who refuses to be the facilitator of Islam in its progress toward Hegemony or Imperialism or whatnot, IS THE CRIMINAL, Hate-monger, Racist, Bigot, Xenophobic [and bla bla bla].
This should be sufficiently alarming.
Death2Hatred 2 months ago
STEYN ROCKS! ISLAM AND THE OFFENDED IDIOTS SUCKS!
timjohan 2 months ago
'I don't even follow that one'
Steyn is a funny boy
OneBigRetard 2 months ago
'Hallmarks of hate'
Too funny. The sick thing is some daft fop got paid by the tax payer to come up with that tripe.
Orwell save us.
OneBigRetard 2 months ago
Most Muslims are real decent people, Islam is not
Kutcher1991 3 months ago
the human rights commission is an anti-democratic marxist creation designed to divide and rule. these commies can fuck right off. i would pay about as much attention to the university indoctrinated over-privileged retards that man (sorry is that sexist) these commisions as i do to road kill.. they are the enemy of the western world. i would spit in there faces.
atlantichouse 3 months ago
Yeah all boils down to "hatespeech". Thats what the muslims usually use as an argument. Lets not talk about their own hatespeechs from their imams every friday. Islam think it can conquer the west through the legalsystem. But it will end soon.
They have no right to be in the west, and are abusing the west.
Islam has no place on earth, and should be fought every day. See how it warps minds, and perverts people.
rajmando1 3 months ago
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Qur’an 8:12 cp. 8:60 “Instil terror into the hearts of the unbelievers”; “smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them”
Qur’an 8:7 ‘Wipe the infidels (non-Muslims) out to the last."
Qur’an 2:191 “...kill the disbelievers wherever we find them”
Qur’an 8:39 “So, fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam.”
Religion of Peace ? Yeah, right!
It's rational to fear/dislike muslims.
SissingPyd 3 months ago
I like the Swiss approach. No mosques and minarets can be built.
orbital92hotmail 4 months ago
Interesting session, but I really want to see a debate about the substance of Islam. Why doesn't Islam send its best to debate the anti-Islamic crowd's best in a moderated civil airing of all this stuff. For instance, I want to know is Islam going to dominate the West? Will Islam enforce Sharia law in that case? Do westernized (moderate) Muslims really want to blend or are they in favour of Islamic states? Would an Islamic state permit other religions or alcohol or freedom? Please do it.
gfsugar2plus 4 months ago
@gfsugar2plus I think it makes more sense to give Islamic immigrants the benefit of the doubt, then it does, as some others on here are doing,(not you) making a conspiracy theory. They could have Islamic Fundamentalism and Sharia Law much more easily if they were to stay in their own country. They've looked at our society, Canada, and liked it for what it is, which is probably why they chose to come here.
TheProvocative9 3 months ago
@TheProvocative9 What are you talking about? Do you propose that your response constitutes an answer to my questions? I don't know why Muslims come here. Are you saying it's because they reject Islam? Not likely! You clearly don't have the answers. I again ask for a clash of titans. Let's hear what the benefits and the risks are of colliding two such diverse cultures in a short time frame. I know what happened to the natives when European culture arrived. Is that what's in store for us.
gfsugar2plus 3 months ago
@gfsugar2plus I'm saying the Islamic in Canada overwhelmingly support our Canadian democratic values, which is why they chose to come here and to stay over generations. Islam and democracy are not incompatible(the Arab Spring). There will be moderates and extremists in any religion, Islam included. I'm an atheist(a rapidly growing group in Canada). My ideal is obviously no religion. I enjoy logic, and I don't see why Islamics should be singled out and stigmatized as conspirators against us all.
TheProvocative9 3 months ago
@TheProvocative9 open your eyes bimbo.
orbital92hotmail 3 months ago
@TheProvocative9 "I don't see why Islamics should be singled out and stigmatized as conspirators against us all" I guess you've been asleep these past 10 years. You think all that security at the airport is for drug smugglers? Sure Abeedah and Abbud, devote Muslims, aren't necessarily blowing themselves up, but they aren't straining themselves to protest against those actions either. Abeedah and Abbud will follow the directions of their Imam. Any guess what that is?
gfsugar2plus 3 months ago
@gfsugar2plus You should look at the Muslim Canadian Congress website and what it has said against terrorism and extremism. While it's certainly not justification for terror, foreign policy for the Middle East has been a bloody failure for civilians there. Even before war, there was a brutal economic sanction regime which left half a million children dead in Iraq. Madeline Albright the U.S. secretary of state at the time said it was "worth it". Bin Laden: killed because of military intelligence.
TheProvocative9 3 months ago
@TheProvocative9 yes you enjoy logic, no religion necessary.
Now open Quran 9:29 and read muslim command kills, time limit and how big the domination requires to be.
Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled. Q9:29
Do you need Canada to burn 1st?
deestilo 3 months ago
it is all about offending. I cannot believe these ill worded hacks are even getting time on t.v.
orbital92hotmail 4 months ago
barabaric people skope up the whole time of thie show
caro2486 4 months ago
@Youngson19
no one is allowed to point out at the danger islam is preparing
and no muslim has reacted against this
||
v
watch?v=WWCgNG6xJJs
caro2486 4 months ago
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Paris: Hundreds of Muslims Defy Street Prayer Ban
September 17th, 2011
Hundreds of Muslims defied a French street prayer ban which came into force Friday, taking to the streets and sidewalks of Paris to pray. The French government announced Thursday it was banning praying outside, with officials pledging to enforce the ban.
But 200 Muslims ignored the street prayer ban and prayed on the streets, saying they have their own law= sharia
>>>Surprise! They don’t give a shit about any other laws.
foamulator 4 months ago
LOL...All you have to do to promote hate , is to read the Qur'an out loud.
foamulator 4 months ago
Don't these freaks know that south of the border, Americans have the first amendment? This crap wouldn't even make it on the air in America. What a bunch of sensitive college grads.
rumschlager 4 months ago
@rumschlager We also have the 2nd amendment that we defend vigorously too. You know us, "Those crazy Yanks with their guns".
tayronachan 4 months ago
1:35 hallmarks of hate? Fuck you bitch! Go eat a cock.
daPlumber702 4 months ago
How about their Koran promoting hate?
wanderinwhen 4 months ago
Ah thought police apparently come in all ethnicities
pretorious700 4 months ago
Ok, I'll put in my two cents: If muslims (or foreigners in general) don't integrate, or get involved in criminal acts, they should be deported immediately.
SicSeb 4 months ago
mr steyn wipes the floor with these wanna be islamo-fascists. the moderator looks and sounds like twat but he was fair and intelligent.
PvtChuff 4 months ago
Great host.
LowleyUK 4 months ago
Or verses like 8:12 "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle." It doesn't say those who attack you, but those who "DISBELIEVE"!! How much more clear should it get?! Muslims are very justified if they attack unbelievers and behead them. You should prove why they shouldn't in light of this and many more verses
ritamalik 5 months ago
I am not even giving my analysis here!It is not my analysis. Quran 4:34 allows men to beat their wives for example!Not only allows but even recommend it in case they fear their disobedience. This neither my opinion nor analysis. This is a plain fact. Now if some "expert" wants to come and say that there is nothing wrong with it that is by definition his own opinion which I neither share nor care much for!
ritamalik 5 months ago
Do you approve that as a punishment for theft and killing people should be blinded by having their eyes plugged out, hand and feet cut and not cauterized and buried up to their neck to die of their injuries!? Is that not barbarity. It is not even "an eye for an eye"!
ritamalik 5 months ago
I meant your sources also use "my sources"!!! So I use theirs and my source directly and make my own conclusion. Besides you most certainly put down my sources saying that they are from 900AD and people in harvard know better as if they have some time machine to teleport themselves to 7th and 8th century and find out for themselves what was going on.
ritamalik 5 months ago
Do you approve of cutting people's hand and feet from opposite side (for what ever reason!)? What kind of instruction is that?! In you enlightened opinion this is not barbarity?!
ritamalik 5 months ago
I think if any one reads these horror in Quran and Hadith and history and comes to the conclusion that it is all fine there is some problem with his sense of morality! Do you approve of men beating their wives?
ritamalik 5 months ago
If they read that and still think Quran is swell then that is their problem, not mine!
ritamalik 5 months ago
How can one read stuff like the verse about wife beating, or the one condoning sex with minors, or calling jews and christians accursed and telling people to cut the hands and feet of the mischief makers on earth from the opposite side, and making war booty lawful to Muslims and also women captives as sex slaves and on and on... and still come up to the conclusion that Quran is a great book and has nothing to do with terrorism?
ritamalik 5 months ago
I have the right to critisize ....ANY religion.......these 3 idiots are crying the usual "hurt feelings" crap.....too bad....stop crying and suck it up. They get mad when people talk about thier so called "religion of peace".....the reason it's talked about SO much is it's NOT a religion of peace.....ISLAM by definition of itself is totalitarian in it's idealogy....anyone speaking against is dubbed "islamiphobic".......to shut us up
bcbk93 5 months ago
Media in muslim countries constantly use Christianity when making reference to the west or Nazi war crimes and the muslims who come to the west have been brought up on this diet of lies and so continue to both think and say that the West and Christianity is this or that. I don`t think this bothers those over offended muslim lawyers at all.
FeignofCordor 5 months ago
@FeignofCordor Exactly!! Well said. As I wrote to massers we who grew up in Islamic countries have been taught an alternate reality as history, science, comparative religions and even our own religion! Now that we are in the freedom of the west we have a DUTY to educate ourselves and go access primary sources and educate ourselves non stop before we open our mouth and parade our ignorance for all to see.
ritamalik 5 months ago
@FeignofCordor For Muslims history of east/west aggression starts with Crusades! But the Islamic conquests and Muslims' horrific atrocities from the time of Muhammad in Persia, Syria, North Africa, India, etc. is no biggy! In fact they talk about it as if all these lands were eternally their birthright! No shame is expressed at Islamic imperialism. In fact they are quite proud of it. But Crusades? British empire? America? All evil and the cause of all maladies in Muslim land! victim mentality!
ritamalik 5 months ago
@ritamalik
Ultimately I despise those who let muslim immigration get to such high numbers that they threaten our culture in a way it has never been threatened before . So much so that some muslims don`t even bother to hide their islamic imperial plans for our kids future more over they boldly shout it whilst mocking our low birth rates. and all the while the Government and pro immigration marxist idiots turn a blind eye to the hate coming from muslims and attack and arrest those opposing voices
FeignofCordor 5 months ago
I condemn Muslim extremists who commit crimes and break the law. I would probably ask for as harsh a sentence for them as for any other person convicted of the same crime. But exactly the same applies to any criminal, thug, extremist, nutcase. I still don't get why you're equating an religion of 1 billion people, many probably much more qualified and respected than you, to a rag tag bunch of terrorist/extremist criminals. Just because Breivik was Norwegian does not mean all Nords will go kill
massers 5 months ago
@massers When are you guys going to get it?! Thank Allah who send you one single Breivik to have something to point finger at when tens of thousands of Muslim terrorist murders are brought up by critics! I grew up in Iran and also studied Islamic scriptures (Hadith), Islamic history AND Quran. First of all those "extremist" are doing exactly what their Islamic sources are telling them to do.
ritamalik 5 months ago
@ritamalik 10's of 1000's? Who exactly are you referring to. Breivik committed a heinous crime, the number of terrorists that have hijacked the name of Islam and committed crimes like that is in its mere 100's. You probably mean people who sympathise with extremist ideologies. Like the taliban for example. Yes they're in there 1000's I agree. But really, one Breivik. Are you thick? You know how much support far-right fascist Christian and white supremist groups have? BNP, EDL, White Knights? 50k
massers 5 months ago
@massers @massers No sir! You are the thick one! Read recent reports from the State Department about 10s of thousands of Muslim on Non Muslim attacks around the world in the year 2010 only!
Do not play dumb and pretend that one Breivik can equate all of that. Islamic violence is a BIG international problem. The so-called white supremacism is a tiny tiny minor problem in comparison!
ritamalik 5 months ago
@ritamalik Oh wait, are you getting confused by Palestinian unarmed boys attacking heavy Jewish artillery and confusing that with Muslim vs Non-Muslim? Or Iraqi kids having to fight American soldiers? Please list the attacks - 9,11 / suicide bombs in PAKISTAN killing MUSLIMS. seriously. List them. Do you know how many hate crimes are committed by white supremists in the UK and Germany alone? Shops destroyed, kids beaten up, not just to Muslims but minorities. It is a MASSIVE problem.
massers 5 months ago
@massers ! I am not talking Palestine at all! Are you aware sir how many Christians in places in Iran, Suda, Pakistan, Nigeria, Indonesia, Egypt, Lebanon, etc are subject to constant harassment, violence, murder, threat and all kinds of horrific discrimination by their Muslim neighbors? If you are against these acts sir what are you doing here arguing with me on youtube? You should be confronting those many many of your muslim brothers who are committing these act all over Muslim world!
ritamalik 5 months ago
@ritamalik wow, and based on that you think it is ok to demean, harass and humiliate muslims? the most petulant argument of fighting fire with fire. the people who do that in these countries are doing exactly what Islam tells them NOT to do. So, you're pointing out some bad apples and blaming an entire civilization from it. Ofcourse you are a jaded and biased individual who wants nothing else but to preach hate
massers 5 months ago
@massers I am baffled by the likes of you! First when you criticize any religion in this world the adherents of those religion never come and say "Hey!You are preaching hate! You want to humiliate all of us!" No! They answer to the criticism by PROVING from their texts and history etc. that the critic is not correct! So stop whining and start to show some prove! Second I have studied Islam EXTENSIVELY and I can assure you that those people are doing exactly what Islam tells them to do!
ritamalik 5 months ago
@ritamalik How are you so sure I have not studied Islam extensively. Ofcourse they are issues that need to be updated. I, like any intelligent individual, understand that for Islam, and also understand that for virtually every single philosophy or ideology or religion. But, the problem with you is, you only focus on the negative of Islam and try exceedingly hard to malign it every chance you get. So, ofcourse you are giving clear evidence of hatred and angry views, which just make me sorry for u
massers 5 months ago
@massers Should I yet again repeat my example of Hitler for you or will you get it finally! I don't care how many good things here and there you bring. You should first say all the barbarities that have been commanded or approved such as wife beating, raping female captives, fighting unbelievers where ever you find them, etc.. are not there or are somehow justified! Besides 99% of Bukhari was not good. There was SUCH nonsense and mombo jumbo there apart from the really bad and some good parts!!
ritamalik 5 months ago
What do you mean updated?! Islam is the teachings of Quran and Muhammad! Not what messeres or Majid Nawas etc.. want it to be! Even if you invent such updated Islam where is the guarantee that millions of fanatical hot headed Muslims are going to give up Muhammad and follow you?! They probably will announce you Murtad and will kill you!
ritamalik 5 months ago
@massers I know that you have not studied Islam extensively because you say such things like 99% of Bukhari is good, or that non-muslims killed Muhammad's family. In general if you had studied Islam you couldn't have been the nice guy that you sound to be in your texts and still believe in Islam! I consider it IMPOSSIBLE! Muhammad was a bloodthirsty and tyrannical and sexually obsessed man! You cannot read the Hadith and Sira and not come out with horror and remain a good person!
ritamalik 5 months ago
@massers And so far again you are pushing your silly fallacy that if there is some good in Islam then that means that Islam in general is good! I already explained that this line of reasoning is bogus! I enumerated several examples of Muhammad and righteous Khalif's glaring misdeeds. You offered no rebuttal. You just say there is some good in Islam therefor we must close our eyes on the really bad stuff! It just needs updating!! That is the jest of what you are saying. It doesn't wash with me.
ritamalik 5 months ago
@ritamalik I apologise for not responding to your comments in detail as I have been extremely busy. I have had the chance to briefly read them and for example you say things like Islam and the prophet preach the raping of pre-pubescent girls? my god, really? and then you expect me to take you seriously. What are the chances all of your evidence is full of blatant lies like this? You wanted me to address each of your points systematically and when I have time I will, be rest assured.
massers 5 months ago
@massers source for Muhammad sending people to kill others in their own homes: Sahih Bukhar Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369. It is the narration of the murder of Kab Ibn Ashraf. You can check it out yourself. It is to long for me to write it here.
ritamalik 5 months ago
Muhammad also in Al Tabari's history he orders the assassination of a Medinan poetess who wrote poems agains him. I don't have my Al Tabari book here with me and I don't know any online pages which has the text of his book. But as soon as I will get my hands on it I will write you the volume and page and chapter and everything. In general Muhammad dealt with people who spoke against him with pure terror like a mafia boss. Exactly the same way Muslim fanatics behave to say Muhammad cartoonists.
ritamalik 5 months ago
@massers The truth of Islam hinges on Muhammad! He claims to hear Jibrelil.No one else has heard him. Quran calls him the OSWA HASANA or perfect example for mankind. Even a few sins and misdeeds from him will totally disprove his case for prophethood! And when we open pages of Hadith and history we see not one or two minor sins but many many bloody and dirty acts not to mention bogus stuff. He was a killer! He forced people to Islam by sword on their neck. Tell me why I should think well of him!
ritamalik 5 months ago
@ritamalik In the meantime, please stop assuming you're the only one who can read and has access to primary sources or even analysis that accesses primary sources. Please do me a favour and read this book: Stephen Sheehi, Islamophobia: The Ideological Campaign Against Muslims. Atlanta, GA: Clarity Press, 2011. Before you discard it as "leftist" god-knows-what, just understand what I am trying to say. I have not practised any religion in many years, my problem with you is bias and prejudice
massers 5 months ago
@massers Listen you already started distorting my statements! I said Islam condones HAVING SEX with pre-pubecent girls, not "preaches rape" of pre-pubecent girls! And the condoning is in the Quran itself! Read no book by any "Islamophobe" but Quran 65:4 (surat talaq) and then read tafsir of giant scholars like Ibn Abbas and Ibn Kathir and then come back and tell me if I was wrong!
ritamalik 5 months ago
@ritamalik I am sorry but it is you who is wrong again. It does NOT condone having sex with pre-pubescent girls but it condones marrying them. At the time that these laws were made, this had to do with reasons such as care, if their fathers had died and young girls were married and moved to the house. However, if you read the very same surat you are flaunting, it says "marry" yes but NOT consummate the wedding till puberty. what is wrong with you! you are saying I am distorting? shame on you
massers 5 months ago
@massers If you tell me that these sources are fake or wrong or unreliable then we are left with nothing what so ever to know Muhammad was and what he did and what his Islam looked like. Islam then will be a lost religion.
ritamalik 5 months ago
@massers I pity you good people who are Muslims. Your task is a difficult one indeed. You are like a lawyer who is defending a murderer who has been caught with the bloody knife in his hand and ripped his victim's stomach in front of several witnesses. Now your job is to cast doubt on all of that straight forward testimony, hide the evidence, and dissemble like craze to try to make him like victim or excuse his act so that you prevent him from getting a life sentence! It is a really hard task!
ritamalik 5 months ago
Of course I don't think as part of your defense case in a court you could say "Yes your honor. He did spill this guy's guts with this knife and he did try to run away, and he did it all premeditated, but other than that he is a nice guy 99% of the time! You see! He takes care of the orphans and feeds the fasting, and greets everyone cheerfully! So let him go free! after all he needs to be a little bit updated about good manners!" I wonder how much success you can have with that case!!Good Luck!
ritamalik 5 months ago
@ritamalik You have an extremely poor and crassly thought out analogy here. Let me try and clarify the issue for you as I guess maybe you're just blinded in hatred and are using one human being and their actions as an analogy for an ideology. If a terrorist who claims to align himself with Islam commits murder and spills guts with a knife as you say, ofcourse there is no room for leniency, regardless of how nice he is. However that has nothing at all to do with an ideology.
massers 5 months ago
@massers To compare Islam with other "civilizations" is silly since Islam is not a civilization. It is an ideology. What people call "Islamic civilization" these days was a mix of different cultures and civilizations from many different countries who were conquered by Arab armies of Muhammad's followers and were converted to Islam mostly by a sword on their neck. Ancient Iranian historians have documented the horrors of Arab invasion which started under Omar Ibn Khattab.
ritamalik 5 months ago
About Quran 65:4 you are very wrong. The reason this aya mentions the 3 months waiting period is in order to make sure that the woman is not pregnant! And scholars agree with me! If a marriage is not consummated why on earth they have to wait three months to make absolutely sure that the girl is jot pregnant? A girl right before her first period can get pregnant because you first ovulate and then have your first period. So she could be pregnant
ritamalik 5 months ago
@massers besides it is silly to say that people had to marry in order to take care of orphan girls! They could easily adopt them like without having sex with them and Quran could easily ban having sex with them. But instead it says it is OK! Just if you decide to divorce them wait 3 month so that you can be sure they are not pregnant and if some man marries them there would not be any paternity issues.
ritamalik 5 months ago
My bringing up Yazid killing Hussain was in answer to your claim that I was a dimwit since only non-Muslims killed Muhammad's family. You said that in response to my statement that the early Muslims didn't wait long after Muhammad's death to fight amongst one another brutally and even didn't spare Muhammad's close family. Hence Yazid and Hussain and Aisha and Ali's example. I guess you owe me an apology for calling me "thick" and "dimwit" since by your own admission I was right!
ritamalik 5 months ago
@ritamalik I did not mean to call you thick or dimwitted. If I did, it may have come out in a flurry since I felt you were missing my point, which is not to blindly defend every single facet of Islam and consider it a religion of angels. Of course I accept there are problems, as there are in every single society, philosophy, ideology, religion, civilization or however you want to classify human communities. My point maintained is we can sit and nit pick/dissect any group of people
massers 5 months ago
@massers Also the analogy of the killer with a knife was about islam which openly teaches hate and brutality to vast segments of human population, teaches misogyny, and has a bloody history, but some like yourself say that never the less it is bigotry to call it barbaric and criticize it because it also says feed the orphan and greet people and pay charity! I just wanted to point out that Islam's brutality is such that already disqualifies it as a valid ideology and the good parts can't save it
ritamalik 5 months ago
@massers Calling out an ideology which teaches lots of brutality, misogyny and killing to its follower from which many societies Muslim and non- Muslim are suffering is not bigotry or "nit picking". It is called finding the source of the problem!
ritamalik 5 months ago
@ritamalik I already pointed this out to you before, but I guess I'll have to repeat it. Brutality is your choice of word, teaching self-defence and war tactics is something that I agree Islam has taught, but so has every ideology with regards to self-defence. This by the sword analogy is a modern term coined recently and sounds quite hokey. You have found no source of the problem, as you're denying the 99% of verses that preach love, charity, tolerance, community building, peace, caring
massers 5 months ago
@massers NO, NO NO,! Where do you think the Harvard or Cambridge historian gets his material? He was not there 600 years ago to see what was happening! He has to consult sources contemporary to the events that he writes about or at least the oldest and thus closest to the event if an eyewitness account is not available! Besides why you Muslims think all these Western scholars know Islam better than the scholars of Islam and all the Muslim sources?
ritamalik 5 months ago
@ritamalik Oh please, I don't want to call you "thick" or anything again (even though you called me "silly" just a few posts before), but I know for a fact that academics (some I've met) have worked with exactly the same sources you mentioned, and spent YEARS analyzing them in detail, probably unlike you who is looking at them with maybe a few years of individual effort. These same sources you mention have been critically studies and discussed in academic settings with many experts (east & west)
massers 5 months ago
@massers Ibn Ishaq's Sira is the oldest biography of Muhammad. Most of it is lost of course but lots of it is recorded in Ibn Hisham and Al Tabari! He was their mother source. Then we have the Sahih Ahadith which are much later but muslim's swear by them so to discount them is unfair. We have no older than these sources Nobody who lived hundreds of years later can know what happened back then without consulting these sources!
ritamalik 5 months ago
@ritamalik Yes, and the academic I pointed out has spent a career analyzing these very sources you mention as well as countless others in the years after that, and other contemporary sources. He has also compared these with historical accounts from other contemporary cultures. I could name at least 30 academics who have done the same and spent their lifetimes researching this (google them!) (surely 100's more). So, wouldn't you agree that their analysis is probably more trustworthy than yours?
massers 5 months ago
@massers I am giving clear evidence against your views from history and Islamic sources and logic. But you are just whining! You are trying to attack my character as "hateful" and"angry" this is the fallacy of ad hominem. Means you attack the person instead of his evidence and arguments. Muslims love this fallacy! It is very popular amongst you guys! You attack the messenger instead of dealing with his message! You are discrediting Islam for all to see by not having any good argument!
ritamalik 5 months ago
@ritamalik I apologise if you felt I was attacking you. I wasn't. I was just pointed out that a lot of your posts were turning a blind eye to a very simple point I was making. there is immense evidence of the troops of persians, greeks, vikings, romans, americans, germans, russians committing heinous crimes in the name of war. Every single historian will agree that the lives lost, women raped, villages burned and cultures obliterated are FAR outweighed possibly by all these compared to islam
massers 5 months ago
Didn't Ayesha and Ali go to war? Didn't Yazid kill Hosein ibn Ali? Didn't Muhammad force people of Arabia to become muslim by sword? Didn't he ordered torture of people? Didn't he order people to go kill people in their homes? Didn't he attack Meccan caravans for booty? Didn't he kill all male Jews of Khaibar? Didn't Abu Bakr go to the battles of Redda to force people to pay him Zakat? Tell me? Which one of these historical facts are not facts. And which one is not a shame to Islam?
ritamalik 5 months ago
@ritamalik Yeah but you make Ayesha and Ali going to war sound like no two tribes/villages/clans/brothers/counties have ever gone to war with each other in the history of human civilization and war. Are you really that naive. have you not read of stories of rival clans/generals fighting each other with much blood shed and immense consequences in the history of EVERY culture. It would be inane and almost childish for me to actually point that out. Which educated person does not know that?
massers 5 months ago
Respond to this video... Didn't Yazid kill Hosein? OK so he did, and what exactly does that prove? Don't you get it. I'm not saying Muslims are angels. I'm not saying they never went to war. I never said that. Not a single educated Muslim who has read history and the affairs of the world will say that. I'm just pointing out why you would use such examples to isolate Muslim history from a completely parallel and well-aligned history that matches the very core of human civilization
massers 5 months ago
Respond to this video... I will be very disappointed if you come back and take a swipe at me again, leaving little comments like "I'm whining" and I have no evidence and its "fools" like massers who don't bother reading and spread fallacy bla bla (ok maybe u didn't call me a fool) you have been very decent and articulate in your arguments, but you have also criticized my overall approach, then turned around and said that I am attacking you and not the message. Well I hope you are seeing
massers 5 months ago
Respond to this video... OK, we'll go step by step. No, he did not order the torturing of people. This is in line with historians from both the east and the west. It has been documented countless times that the prisoner of war regimens practised during Mohamed's times all the way up to the first 400 hundred years of the caliphate were exemplary, most renowned and serious historians will agree that they out rank the prisoner treatment of a VAST majority of contemporary armies.
massers 5 months ago
@ritamalik Didn't he order people to go and kill others in their homes? Are you serious? Please I would like to see verifiable evidence for this statement. It sounds so hokey, I don't even feel I need to try and refute it. However, I can guide you to a hundred books and analysis, hundreds, by renowned scholars in the great western tradition which you seem to look up to immensely, non-muslims westerners, heads of history departments at famous universities who would outright dispute this point
massers 5 months ago
@ritamalik I have so much more to say to you. But, I am extremely busy at the moment. For example, the other points you have mentioned here are not backed by verifiable fact. There is no evidence in any properly researched history book of Mohd ordering the attack of caravans for booty. This is actually a waste of my time going through bizarre claims like this. Just rubbish. I'm disappointed. Say true things like yes they fought wars, like EVERY other culture. sigh. prove how u are not biased?
massers 5 months ago
If these are indeed these historical facts (which they are and if you dare deny them I will post all the references for all the world to see) then why talking about them is "hateful"? Why it is somehow improper to bring them up? Don't we talk about the sack of Rome, WWII, and all other historical events without censorship? Why should Islam have such privileged status that even when critic can prove every word that he says he should somehow bite his tongue and tone it down or say nothing at all?
ritamalik 5 months ago
@massers Are you ashamed of your religion? Are you angry because some informed Kafirs bring up stuff in your religion that you rather remain hidden? If these facts that I mentioned made you so ashamed then why are you following such a religion? If you can already sit in judgement of your religion and saying it needs this or that updating doesn't it mean that you already are more moral and advanced than your religion? So your values inform your religion not the other way around. Think about that!
ritamalik 5 months ago
@ritamalik I am not ashamed of being born into a Muslim family even though I haven't practised Islam for over 10 years. If you had joined this comment thread originally, you wouldn't be making such out of context remarks. My involvement in these threads was to do with a video clip and you have moved towards Muslim bashing. But, I'll humor you - I started responding to these posts when I showed "kafirs" posts like yours and those preceding yours, and it was they who pointed out the bigotry
massers 5 months ago
It doesn't matter if i'm following Islam or not. I am speaking in defence of it because I completely and fully think that a vast majority of your claims unfortunately are wrong, and you are unable to distinguish the natural trajectory of Islam as a civilization and ideology that is parallel with a vast majority of other cultures. You are unable to say that if a muslim man has killed in the battle field, then 1000 times that have not happened in other instances of war. That is your fallacy
massers 5 months ago
And those shameful facts are facts not because I say it but because the history testifies! You might put your head in the sand. But if you dare look them up. They are right there in the texts. Even in Quran! Who can deny that it commands killing of non- muslims and wife beating and even condones sex with pre-pubesant girls! READ IT! Read the Tafsir as well! You are better than your religion masser. You don't need to degrade yourself to this degree to defend such shameful indefensible system!
ritamalik 5 months ago
@massers Please don't refer me to modern books and general statements like "historians say". Bring me primary sources! Today's historians cannot make up stuff as they go. They have to refer to old historic sources. We have access to the same sources ourselves and need not their opinion. We can read them and make up our own mind. And I have and I hardly saw anything that didn't turn my stomach.
ritamalik 5 months ago
@ritamalik why shouldn't I refer to modern textbooks and historians? Are you saying that an Iranian historian from the year 900 AD is any more or less valid than a historian from the 1800s or even 1900s at Harvard, Cambridge or the University of Cairo? If you are being judgemental about the sources of knowledge then doesn't it make it easy for me to say you're biased. And you pointed out one obscure historian, why don't you look up Professor Yasir Suleiman's work at Cambridge.
massers 5 months ago
@massers No because I trust my own brain! I tend to do my own research instead of lending my brain to others to fill it. Besides all you are doing now in classical logic is called the fallacy of appeal to authority. Which means again instead of proving the arguments wrong you are just saying here and there so and so scholar disagrees with you. Why he disagrees (maybe his reasons are silly) maybe he has agendas of his own, etc.. we no not!
ritamalik 5 months ago
@massers Besides this appeal to authority is a useless games because there are always "scholars" on both sides of an issue and then the argument will become a battle of scholars and "my scholar is better than your scholar" and "your scholar is agenda driven mine is pure" etc...
ritamalik 5 months ago
@massers So instead please tell me why it is OK that Muhammad the supposed perfect example for mankind comes out unequivocally acting like a mafia boss. Read Al Tabari. There also you will see very clearly that his so called Maghszi were nothing but caravan ambushes and raids. It is not that difficult. You can order all the several volumes of Al Tabari on Amazon translated to English although I read it in Farsi. Read that and them tell me if you agree with me more or with those scholars.
ritamalik 5 months ago
@massers Besides the VAST MAJORITY of the fatality in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are Muslim on Muslim violence. Shias killing Sunnis, Sunnis killing Shias, stricter Muslims killing less strict Muslims. You Muslims can't treat your own brethren a lot better than you treat infidels really! Which sad!
ritamalik 5 months ago
@massers Untrue!most of Quran is primary a rehash of the Bible+ teaching fear and hatred of the other. "Allah doesn't love" is a commonly repeated phrase.It has some nice advices but it is also laced with horrific ones.It commands war with many groups of people and teaches hatred of them very deeply.It teaches misogyny and sex with women captives. It is also full of sadistic descriptions of hell.Love of god is only for Muslims. What more should a books say before you say it is a very bad book!
ritamalik 5 months ago
@ritamalik Oh my god you're completely mad. I'm sorry but I have to stop this conversation with you because you just keep coming out and churning lies and I've maintained complete decency and space for normal discussion in this conversation. You are free to say what you want, its OK, but I've not met a single other person who thinks this way and has read the Quran. And I've talked to 100s, 100s of people, religious, non-religious across the board, not ONE has your interpretation as in this post
massers 5 months ago
Defensive was tactics? Quran clearly teaches offensive warfare and the best evidence of it is the fact than in matter of 11 year Muhammad conquered ALL of Arabia and started to attack boarders of Roman Empire and Persia and in few years the capital city of Islam was Damascus, a formerly Roman city. They also took over Persian empire. The Romans and Persians had NOTHING to do with Muslims. Why did they attack them? They say it in their history book. They did it to glorify Allah by spreading Islam
ritamalik 5 months ago
@ritamalik Just the fact that you would try and isolate white supremacism and focus instead on spewing text upon text of hatred against Islam kind of contradicts what you claim you stand for. dont you think? you feel it is ok to criticize others effusely yet diffuse and marginalize other issues that may be very critical. what do you have to say about that?
massers 5 months ago
@massers Just look at Islamic history! Muhammad's body was hardly in grave yet when his devoted followers started to kill each other! Even Muhammad's family wasn't spared! If these were the best generation of Islam what else would you expect of Muslims today!
ritamalik 5 months ago
@ritamalik oh my god you're so misguided his followers didn't kill each other you dimwit it was non-muslims who attacked his family and other muslims. sigh.
massers 5 months ago
@massers No sir read the earliest histories of Islam. And go through Sahih Hadith your eyes will be opened! Ali the 4th "rightly guided"khalif for example went to battle against Aisha the beloved wife of Mushammad in the battle of the camel. Then there was the battles over khelafa between Ali and Moaviyyah, and don't forget that Othman the 3rd Khalif was killed by a relative of Omar who was a muslim. Examples like these abound! There is no room here for me to write. Just go and read the history!
ritamalik 5 months ago
What you did above by listing a few good deeds in order to "prove" that Islam is good is a fallacy! If a thought system has a few good things it doesn't make it good! I
ritamalik 5 months ago
@ritamalik hahaha u sad misguided and thoroughly misinformed individual. these sahih bukhari hadith that you're parroting why don't you look through the whole book and you will see 99% good things and yes (I agree) some contentious things which I agree should be updated with the times, just like all cultures have aspects which are out of sync and need work by modern society. But, if you wont, then when I get time, I will quote all the 1000's of good things that will overshadow your petty finds
massers 5 months ago
I give you an example. Adolf Hitler was a great lover of classical music, and he also started a social system of medicine for germany and also brought them out of a great depression. But when we evaluate his life we don't talk about those things much because we don't think they matter in light of the great evils that he perpetuated.
ritamalik 5 months ago
@massers So in order for you to exonerate Islam you should not bring forth a few examples of rather good deeds that it might have commanded but you should show us why it is OK when Quran and Hadith allow Muslim to have sex with captive women, plunder other tribes, force people to become Muslims, etc.... all recorder in the earliest sources of Islam. In light of these horrific teachings who cares if they are also commanded to greet of look after orphans!?
ritamalik 5 months ago
@massers The beginning of the hostilities between Mecca and Medina also was exactly Muhammad's fault! It is stated very clearly in the books of Ibn Hisham and Al Tabari that Meccans were very happy and relieved when Muhammad and muslims decided to move Medina. It says in Al tabari "Meccan's said we are relieved from him!" So they were quite happy to forget all about him. But then Muhammad started to raid their caravans. That is how the Maghzi started! Not the other way around!
ritamalik 5 months ago
And never forget that Muhammad was preaching in Mecca for 13 years, also using very rude and harsh words about the religion of the Meccans and they tolerated him. In history books there is no sign that they ever laid a finger on him. They were upset by the fact that he was very rude to them, but they never really prosecuted him. But what did he do to the Meccans and Jews and others who didn't accept him when he had the power? He forced them to become Muslim or die!
ritamalik 5 months ago
@massers Arabian peninsula was full of people of other religions. There were Jews in Kheibar and Medina, pagans all over the place, Christians in Najran, Sabians in Yemen, etc... And Muhammad when he became powerful enough decreed that they should all convert or die until the all of Arabia belongs to Allah! What happened to "there is no compulsion in religion?"ha? It was abrogated! No muslim is supposed to follow that! Best evidence? Muhammad didn't follow it anymore either!
ritamalik 5 months ago
@massers Now in light of that you are surprised that Muslims in Sudan and Iran Iraq Nigeria and elsewhere don't treat their non-muslim neighbors peacefully!?Muhammad is the reason!Quran is the reason! Hadith and Sira history testifies to it! According to Islam they are not bad apples! They are the good apples! They follow Muhammad! You are the bad apple! You are the Monafegh! You should be fighting unbelievers not chatting with them Youtube! Think about that! Do you want to follow such RELIGION?
ritamalik 5 months ago
@massers And then I forgot to add on the issue of killing Muhammad's family that Yazid ibn Moaviya the 5th Khalif killed Hosain ibn Ali the grand son of Muhammad. Ali himself was killed by Ibn Moljam who was a very devout Muslim. Ali was the son in law and cousin of Muhammad. So they were not even respected enough by Muslim community to even be kept alive for the sake of Muhammad's memory!
ritamalik 5 months ago
@massers And also don't forget that as soon as Muhammad died most Arab tribes that Muhammad forced to become Muslim and pay him Khums and Zakat (of course!!) decided that they no longer want to be Muslim and won't give their taxes to Abu Bakr! Thus the bloody battles of Reddah started so that Abu Bakr forced them back into Islam and into paying him money! So again what happened to "no compulsion in religion"?! Don't you tell me apostasy in Islam is not punished by death!
ritamalik 5 months ago
@massers You call me misguided!Tell me who misguided me?Quran or the books of Sahih Muslim, Sahih Bukhari, Sunan Abu dawood, The history by Muhammad ibn Jarir Al Tabari, etc... which one of these Zionist agents were responsible for my misguidance? Which one of them has lied? How are all these ancient texts written by devout Muslims misguiding me? And should I believe them or you an unknown biased and clearly ill educated Muslim on Youtube comment section who is not giving any evidence either!
ritamalik 5 months ago
@massers Sorry at some point I called Yazid Ibn Moawiya the 5th Khalif.He was the 6th since his father Moawiya ibn Abu Sufyan was the 5th who came after Ali though a bit overlapped with him also. I thought I correct it fast since Muslims usually pick on a minor typo or non-sequitor mistake of a critic and parade it as evidence that everything else that the critic is saying is wrong also by the same token which is a totally bogus and illogical way or refutation, but it happens a lot with Muslims!
ritamalik 5 months ago
@massers I have a thousand things to say to you. I appreciate your systematic and calculated argument, albeit littered with flaws and weakness. I would like to do it right now but I'm going out to a club right now and really don't have the time and energy to spend a few hours calculating 15 or 16 messages. But, the thoughts and arguments are all there, crystal clear, and I will share them with you soon.
massers 5 months ago
@massers You are deluded! I have also seen 100s personally who were Muslims all their lives while reading Quran like parrots in Arabic without knowing what it means and when for the first time read it in their own language they were shocked and disgusted and left Islam. I am by far not the only one!
ritamalik 5 months ago
@ritamalik this has nothing to do with your personal choice of being a muslim or not you nutcase. my god how long will it take me to get this across to you. i'm really sorry but you have left me with no options but to call you "thick" ..... if your friends were traumatized by what they read, I guess they're confused and weak people. I HAVE read it in English and I've just spent hours explaining to you about experts who have done the same, so my dear, I think it is you who is deluded
massers 5 months ago
@massers See massers, in many many Muslim countries if a Muslim changes his or her religion (especially a woman) they are sent to an insane asylum because people think exactly like you! "How can a sane person read this perfect book Quran and not fall on your knees in worship, but instead apostatize! You must be mad!" And that is yet when they are "merciful enough not to kill him on the spot!
ritamalik 5 months ago
@ritamalik Oh please, whose being the victim now? There is no problem if you decided to leave Islam. That is your choice. I totally respect that. I already clarified to you earlier about how Islamists like Anjem Chaudry call for the killing of apostates, and they are to the Muslims, what the Ku Klux Klan is to Christians or what the Nazi's are to normal Germans. I already explained to you how Maajid Nawaz did the same and I respect that. So, what is your point?
massers 5 months ago
@massers OMG! The whole point of my comments so far has been to prove to you by history and scripture of Islam that those who kill apostates are not like KKK to Christianity but they are actually the true Muslims because even though Jesus never said "linch the blacks" Muhammad did say "Kill the apostate" and there are several examples of that which I mentioned before + the wars of redda by Abu Bakr which was because Arab tribes apostatized after Muhammad's death and he forced them back to Islam.
ritamalik 5 months ago
@ritamalik sigh. ok. believe what you want. i've spent hours clarifying how these views of yours are actually untrue, they are NOT supported by any verifiable piece of information, just like the stuff you made up about breaking into homes, and looting, you're full of biased views. i've tried to prove it but you keep throwing the same thing back like some kind of broken record. to be honest, it is a bit pitiful, i dont really know what to say anymore. all i was trying to show u is stop hating ppl
massers 5 months ago
@massers If you prefer to console yourself like this that is fine with me! We can stop right here. I didn't write these comments only for you but to inform Westerners who also read these pages to read the sources themselves and take no one's word. Not mine not yours, not the so called "scholars". They can judge for themselves. I think that is a fair position. And I gave my sources too. So others can check. I wish you a good life and best of luck!
ritamalik 5 months ago
@ritamalik yes I'm glad you did so. I'm sure westerners will go to analyze an iranian/persian scholar from 900AD as the source of their information against 100s of modern historians who have analyzed your iranian scholar among with 100s others and will be able to see for themselves. i'm actually glad you end that way, because it is fair. anybody who sees this will know that they can access the truth out there, and not rely on your views.
massers 5 months ago
@massers I didn't mention 1 iranian scholar. There are many then I mentioned Islamic texts like Hadith, Al Tabari, and Quran itself. Please people don't forget to consult the commentary (Tafsir) of scholars like Ibn Kathir, Al Jalalain, and Ibn Abbas and the like so that Muslim sophists cannot fool you about the true meaning of the verses when it is too embarrassing for them (which is often).
ritamalik 5 months ago
@ritamalik oh boy, here she goes again. As I've said in probably 8 or 9 comments so far, and find it pitiful I have to repeat, the works of these scholars have been analyzed by highly respected historians (i've already pointed out names, insitutes, please look up their papers etc) that have pointed out in-context analysis and you point one or two things that no two scholars, even of your ancient era agree on, like a caravan booty, which most actually disagree with-
massers 5 months ago
@massers Besides now I am the one who has to call you thick! Sir! In historical enquiry and research the older the source and the closer to the actual events the more valuable and reliable it is! You speak of a historian in 900AD as if being old is a bad thing. If you want to reject an old source like that you have to have a very solid reason for it. What is yours!?
ritamalik 5 months ago
@ritamalik Haha, you're like some kind of strange person who is so convinced that the one or two old books you've read you'll believe so blindly, yet not consider the analysis of that VERY SAME book by a world leader in the field. And that world leaders analysis would be subjected to rigorous enquiry and debate by a highly qualified community. (e.g Harvard and Cambridge). Not ONE supports your views. At all. So, I highly suspect your analysis of these sources. Maybe you read them wrong?
massers 5 months ago
@massers Listen you are waisting my time! You clearly cannot count Quran+ Tafsir (Ibn Kathir+Jalalain+Ibn Abbas)+Hadith books (Muslim+Bukhari+Abu Dawood) +Al Tabari already make 8 books which are the core of Islamic theology and Sharia. They are no pesky trifle and give corroborating evidence which prove Islam as a barbaric religion. No matter where a person studies he has to go through them to learn about Islam and NO AMOUNT of whitewash and sophistry can make OK the stuff that I read there.
ritamalik 5 months ago
@ritamalik That is my point. I am not discrediting the source, the books are fine and I keep repeating to you that 100s of people, experts and individuals have analyzed these (I have read half of these in english) and come to completely different conclusions than you. So, these books are fine, its just how you read them. Maybe you are not understanding the context, maybe you have pre-determined views. Why are you calling a cambridge professor whitewash and sophistry? you think they're wrong?
massers 5 months ago
Others can read them too and if they agree with you and your scholars then good for you! But I encourage them not to take anyone's word and read for themselves. We are not stupid minors. We can all read and make our own mind. It takes some time and energy but it is much more reliable than taking someone else's opinion as fact. We need facts not opinions!
ritamalik 5 months ago
@ritamalik certainly, well said! I completely encourage others to read all the books you mentioned, and do all the research they deem fit. I have no problems with your sources and I did not discredit them once. Its just your analysis. I find it funny you call an established community of historians and researchers at leading global centers of learning as "my sources". Haha. But yes, you're right, I encourage others to read extensively.
massers 5 months ago
@massers Hei! Again you are misrepresenting.I said looting caravans not breaking into homes and looting. I said going to people's homes and assassinating them and i gave the example from Hadith Bukhari. Check the reference!! You can check it even online. Bukhari is even available online. I didn't lie! You are the lier for accusing me! Shame on you!
ritamalik 5 months ago
My point for mentioning the asylum thing is that Muslims are SO brainwashed in their own ideology that they are shocked to see someone read the same Quran and comes to the conclusion that it is not sublime and miraculous but actually false and barbaric. They think coming to such conclusion can only happen because of the person's insanity. I mentioned that because you were accusing me a few comments ago as a nut case and insane! Did you forget that already?
ritamalik 5 months ago
@ritamalik How can I forget that if you keep proving it with every comment. Sigh. I would love for you to say one sensible thing so I can not call you what I did. But you keep mounting the evidence for it back on. For example here, I'm explaining to you how non-muslim experts read the quran and come to completely different conclusions than you, yet you're badgering on with this belief that everyone is like you. its like you keep repeating the same thing even though it is so clear you're deluded
massers 5 months ago
@massers Besides stop playing the fool! The problem with Islam is not only terrorism! Muslims are very demanding! In fact you take it kind of fore granted that everybody should pay homage to your religion and tiptoe around you.
ritamalik 5 months ago
@ritamalik What are you talking about? I guess you've had a bad experience with a group of Muslims, just like the other day 3 white guys yelled "get the fuck out of here you paki nigger" at me on the street and chucked a beer glass at me which shattered near my shoes. But, do you see me equate every white person with behaviour like that? Do you see me make statements about how you condone people like that if you're promoting a free license of Muslim bashing as and when you feel like?
massers 5 months ago
@massers Why do you equate White (which is race) with Islam which is an ideology! There is no white race ideology! White men have many different ideologies. Race doesn't dictate how one behaves. Ideology does. And unlike race you can study an ideology and see what it teaches. Islam does teach violence against non Muslims and lots of other horrible stuff!
ritamalik 5 months ago
@massers No sir, my comments are true and therefore perfectly legitimate. I don't have to sensor myself lest some idiot wants to bash Muslims! Besides the absolute best license for Muslim bashers is the violence and barbarity of many many Muslims. Violence begets violence. I condemn it on both sides, but when your side starts bashing non Muslims in every place in the world then some more violent and less civilized people answer in kind. So instead of silencing me reign in those violent Muslims.
ritamalik 5 months ago
@massers Why Muslims rakes so much havoc for a bunch of Muhammad cartoons? Non-Muslims don't believe in Muhammad. Why should they sensor themselves when it comes to him! It is a tenant of Islam that one should not draw Muhammad which non muslims should never be subject to. But Muslims both radical and non radical don't understand and under the guise of demanding "respect" they want to force a tenant of their religion on others without batting an eye.
ritamalik 5 months ago
@ritamalik Ofcourse other cultures, religions, people ask and want respect, and they show it in different ways. But of this case I agree with you, many Muslims were hurt by Westerners openly and hurtfully taunting and jeering at them, conceptually desecrating something that means a lot to them, which I guess you don't respect. But that's OK, I agree with you. If you want to go and hurt someone go ahead. I agree, it should not be censored at all. I guess I can call people you respect whatever
massers 5 months ago
@massers I am glad you agree with my point on Muhammad cartoons. That show you are a reasonable person. But let me tell you respect is not demanded. It is earned!
ritamalik 5 months ago
@massers In Ramadan in many places they demand people not to eat around them (in Iran in fact you could go to jail if you ate in public) Why? If you are not Muslim (or a non practicing Muslim) why should you be force not to eat in public? Muslim neighborhoods in many places in europe force bars to close and shops to stop selling alcohol! Why? It is nobody's business if others want to drink!
ritamalik 5 months ago
@ritamalik Oh please, Iran is the worst example of a Muslim country, I have come across 100's of young Iranians who sweat and work and fight against that face of Islam day in and day out. That is so lame. Did you know there are nearly 275,000 amish people in the US who commit polygamy, mistreat young girls, promote child labour, care less for any western technical or ideological advance, yet do you see me using them as an example of how crap the core ideology of christianity is?
massers 5 months ago
@massers Friend! Go read Islamic scriptures! Islam promotes wife beating, killing apostates and infidels and lots of violence.Most Muslims are ignorant of their religion. They don't even know what is written in their own co