Long Toss Won't Improve Pitching Velocity

[silentassasin13s]

This is hilarious. There is PLENTY of proof that long toss helps increase pitching velocity. As a freshman i topped out at 84 from the mound and 89 from a crow hop. After working on long toss and other baseball workout programs, im throwing 87 from the mound and 92 from a crow hop. Sophomore year just started and im faster than every senior at my school. How bout this, look at allen jaegers web site and trevor bauers thoughts on long toss

[23pimpdaddy]

@silentassasin13s

are you sure it wasn't just growing? I remember my freshman to sophomore year an increase like that but I grew 3 inches and put on 15lbs of muscle. I agree, long toss doesnt help increase velo. it just helps you throw far which isn't desireable unless your trying to show off.

[himynam3isdylan]

AHAHAHAHAA dude u no long toss has basically been proven to incease pitch speed. its the same concept as throwing a softball then grabbing a baseball and it feel like its a feather. so if ur throwing 300 and u build ur ARM STRENGTH to get up to that distance..then clearly pitch speed is going incease..jeez just look at jaeger sports and see how many people use that program and say it works..incuding myself

[Byron9596]

Sorry for typos Dick. I had not proof read it yet before it sent on accident.

[Byron9596]

Hi Dick. I am a power pitcher and I pitched for 12 professional seasons and I am going to respectfully disagree. And a guy who can get it up to 101 mph I can tell you that long toss for the increase arm speed did the trick for me. It was not about far I threw it rather it was the arm speed that had to be generated to throw a ball on a LINE for that distance. There are a number of big league guys that I know of that live by long toss. Just my professional opinion.

[swing11]

Dick, if arms have little to do with arm speed, why do taller pitchers with longer arms generally throw harder? Is height correlated with quicker trunk rotation? No. Max effort exercises like long toss tell the body to recruit more muscle fibers to better handle the abnormal stress. Simple physiology. The majority of muscles used in pitching off a mound are also used in long toss. And by the way, the ASMI study does absolutely nothing to dispel the idea that long toss can strengthen the arm.

[TheFisherman000]

i disagree with this. my brother did alot of long toss before the season and had the best pitching summer of his life.

[noahmcdx]

I was going to make a series of comments replying to the outrageous things you said in this video, but it's honestly too overwhelming to go over them all. Im just going to click away and mind my own. Hopefully you don't brainwash too many people with your idiotic theories, but I'm not going to waste my time trying to limit the possibility of that happening.

[leftyDM]

That is exactly the point. I personally pitched in a 4 man rotation during my pro career. We pitched more from a mound and did no long toss. The more you pitch from a mound the better you get at pitching. The recent study my ASMI (Jan 2011) confirms long toss adds stress to the arm and interferes with building sound mechanics. Long toss and pitching is like taking away the net in tennis. There is no specific skill building without a net. What pitcher can afford that? Dick Mills

[FunnyBurrito]

Pitching is not about arm strength, its about arm speed. Long toss doesnt help.

[noahmcdx]

@FunnyBurrito So what your saying is arm strength helps you throw a ball far, but arm speed helps you pitch. Okay, take out the factors of bad mechanics and bad arm action, etc. To throw a ball 90 mph, your hand has to move about 90 mph. For the ball to go x amount of feet, you have to throw it x mph. So EITHER WAY, your hand is traveling x mph, whether your aim is to make the ball go x mph so it goes x amount of feet, or your aim is just to have the ball go x mph, going 60 feet, 6 inches.

[EHriverhawk35]

I heard you say in one of your videos that the reason pitchers today have more arm injuries is long toss. Well explain to me why pitchers from the 60's didn't have arm injuries when they only had 4 man rotations and they threw everyday. The biggest reason pitchers are getting injured now is partly because of bad mechanics but also they don't throw enough. Long Toss isn't a bad thing.

[leftyDM]

If long toss worked for you to add 9 mph then it should also work for all other pitchers.

However, that is not the case.

The recent study by ASMI that was released in Jan. 2011 proved long toss does not work to improve velocity but does add stress to the arm and will interfere with mechanics.

This means that for you it was not the long toss that improved your velocity but something that you changed mechanically.

Dick Mills

[Byron9596]

Hi Dick!!

I have enjoyed your thoughts on long toss. However, I have pitched 12 years professionally as a power pitcher and in 2004 there was a long toss program that took my fastball from 93 to 102 and I was in MLB camp the very next season. I can explain the long toss concept to you.

[livestrong101101]

isn't the whole point of long toss is to exert more effort to get the ball to the target which makes micro tears in your arm and then the micro tears rebuild and then making your shoulder stronger. its like working out

[tysonDAbeast]

maybe talk to the New York Mets coach

[Bmatre11]

long toss cures diabetes

[swingdocta]

well i kno this dude that practiced long toss since he was a kid and is now a top prospect in the minors, so it cant be that bad.

[horsdoctor]

"Long toss has absolutely nothing to do with pitching" so let me get this straight. Throwing a baseball has nothing to do with throwing a baseball... Well then, I will be throwing out my baseball tees because I don't use that on the field or in a game either. I mean using this experts logic how in the world could hitting a ball off of a tee help in any way??  Heck the ball isn't even moving. Man am I stupid. I have been "buying into this idea" and "wasting a tremendous amount of time".

[jakekn13]

@leftyDM

Long toss builds arm strength. Period. It just has to be done right. I've come a long way thanks to long toss since freshman year of hs. Why do you think pros do it if it didn't work

[aralvarado92]

Red Sox Country my ass, i'd rather listen to the real Boston coaches

[FHSLopezFHS]

This Guy Doesn't know what hes talking about say you throw the ball 20mph it not gonna go very far now throw it 60mph and compare distance the farther you throw the ball the faster it has to go so as your distance increases so does your speed its common sense ya the faster you throw the farther it goes it may not apply to pitching but it helps your velocity long toss helped me increase my speed i started pitching mid 70's and i started jaegers sports technique long toss and i now pitch mid 80's!

[Twinkilling1026]

Mariano Rivera use to throw a milk carton to practice pitching when he lived in Panama. Looks like using something that isn't used in games really hindered Mariano Rivera's success.

[Twinkilling1026]

If I do recall correctly, Trevor Bauer (UCLA ace pitcher) does an extreme long toss program almost everyday. He throws 95 mph and was one of the best pitchers in the country in 2010. But by what you're saying is that long toss didn't help the 5 foot 9, 160 pound runt throw any harder or have a better arm. Absurd. Please swallow your pride and accept the fact that long toss promotes arm strength, velocity, and health.

[Twinkilling1026]

So, what you're saying is that we SHOULDN'T do anything that isn't involved in a game. So then we always practice fully uniformed with umpires. We should totally get rid of every L-screen and every batting cage in America. Forget warm-up jackets that pitchers use, because they're not used on the mound. Forget bullpen mounds, because we don't pitch in games on those. And by what you're saying, let's never ever again use practice bats in batting practice. This is ludicrous.

[Twinkilling1026]

It is a shame that there are closed minded baseball minds out there. Instead of being open minded and willing to change to a more effective pitching philosophy, we have closed minded egotistical instructors and coaches out there. And we wonder why our pastime is being invaded by foreigners.

[baseballstudent]

According to this videos pitching philosophy i guess when pitchers have to field bunt plays they should run to the exact distance of 60 ft 6 inches then throw to first, because anything further would be terrible right? ridiculous. When have you ever heard of outfielders hurting their arms, its very rare, pitchers its routine for injury. And fielders throw more than pitchers in a weeks time frame. Take it from someone who has gained massive amounts of velocity from weighted balls and training.

[baseballstudent]

The idea that you should not do any thing that you do in a game is absurd. I guess we should eliminate weight training , eliminate batting cages, get rid of hitting tees. Football players use resistance bands, medicine ball training. Basketball players use pads when they crash the lane. every sport use things they dont do in games period. Every great pitcher long tosses. Oh and you can develop things you dont already have. Do we become more muscular when we lift? Do we become faster when we run?

[baseballstudent]

I dont understand your philosophy, basic physics is velocity=distance/time. Bottom line is the farther you throw the faster you throw. And im certain that pitchers throw the baseball. How can you say that throwing at a target at 350ft away will not help you hit a target 60ft away? Long tossing promotes healthy arms, just look at the japanese pitchers, it wasnt til Daisuke came to the states that he hurt his arm. american pitchers do not throw enough thats why they get hurt .

[jb3351]

won't let me post the link

[jb3351]

BA has article about long toss and T.L. Interesting....

Sept. 10, 2010

[younggunz2121]

i am definitely not taking your word on long toss

[541994000]

"A power clean has little to no benefit for pitching."

Its the same for longtoss, it puts more athleticism into the throwing motion.

"Where is the evidence that long toss has anything to do with fast twitch fibers at all. Human beings cannot develop more of anything they do not already have.

...common belief that the arm creates it own speed...when biomechanists have proven that arm speed comes from fast trunk rotation"

LOL-fast trunk rotation...is that from slow twitch muscle fibers?

[fabio1456]

dude its no secret that the farther you can throw a baseball the harder you can. you are stretching and conditioning your arm to throw off the mound. you cant just show up at the ball park and start "airing it out" to a catcher without properly stretching your arm out or you will get hurt.

Long toss teaches a pitcher endurance and how to convert that 330 ft throw into a 60 ft fastball. Its a strength training tool while the other things(mechanics, off speed pitches) are worked on in bullpens.

[pimped72]

You have left out simple physics. How can you throw a ball 250 ft without it having a high velocity.  The further you can throw a ball, the faster you have to throw it. I agree that mechanics fine tune pitching speed, but strength training and speed training (long toss) get the ball moving faster.

[berk7394]

when u long toss you throw on an arc till you cant, then when u cant reach u do it on a line, u never crow hop untill yu do the line. ...... so your saying by throwing a ball further and working your muscles on your throwing arm that it will not improve your arm... that it will not get stronger, its like lifting weights and not gaining muscles, this is a waste of everyones time.

[dirt657]

strength not strenth

[peterok32]

1. Its Red Sox Nation

2. Shut The Fuck Up

3. I bet u've never played baseball

4. long toss is for arm strength, not for fucking pitching mechanics.

5. I hate retired janitors(You), b/c they got nothing to do.

[Timex105]

if you say there are no evidence that long toss improves pitching then why does the jaeger program work so well and how can you state that it isn't good, you cant prove one without the other, throwing a ball from 60ft or 350ft uses the same muscles grous, longer throws forces pitchers to fully extended outwards, something forgotten in pitching, it forces him to stay loose, long toss works if you do it properly, muscles only get better if you work them, full momentum pitches only damage your arm

[leftyDM]

Monk,

Why would any athlete practice something he will never use in competition? No other sports do this. Why does long toss overload the arm any more than a maximum effort pitch? Using maximum effort pitches from the mound build the skill of throwing maximum effort pitches for using in games to get hitters out. Pitchers are not very skilled today because they waste time on practice activities like long toss that have little to no value for getting hitters out.

Dick Mills

[drewsky90]

@leftyDM

Dick seriously, you played maybe 4 innings in the Bigs and that sad part is you fail to understand pitching is an art form and a skill. majority of MLB pitchers throw long toss, what ever you say cannot be refuted when players such as lincecum, zito, halladay, maddux, too many to count attribute to long toss

if you understand the biomechanics of throwing a baseball you would understand how long toss integrates muscular and CNS activity from 200+ ft into the 60 foot throw

[monkmoore]

Hey Dick, I love your stuff. But I disagree with you here. We all agree mechanical flaws hamper your potential. Long toss WILL help pitchers with good mechanics. Why you say it is unrelated. If you take away the mound, a normal pitch would have a high arc b/c the mound tilts your delivery downward. Your argument about OF's infers that they are long tossing. But in all actualities, OF's do make long throws but only make a few a day. Long tossing requires you to overload & fatigue the arm.

[MrJCole011]

This guy simply is trying to seem like a revolutionary of baseball mechanics/ knowledge. My view of how to throw harder is simple...throw harder. In drills, long-toss or bullpens throw as hard as you can. Say your topping at 85, and in your bullpen your sitting at 80-82. You should throw as hard as you can for those 30-40 pitches and try to hit 85 every pitch while keeping in mind good mechanics. Eventually, as you build up the pitch count you'll go from averaging 80-82 to sitting at 84-85

[oskey02]

long toss might help to create loose arm action but no relationship to the mound... arm durability possibly, but no effect on the radar... teammate of mine threw a 100mph never went out farther than 120ft. but the way he torqued his body when he got on the mound was crazy

[leftyDM]

The sports science research disproves what you are saying. A power clean has little to no benefit for pitching. Strength does not improve speed. Arm action while doing long toss is different than when pitching from the mound so long toss can only interfere with normal pitching actions not improve them. Pitching drills have been proven to create slow and robotic pitching which cause many pitchers to "over-think" their mechanics.

There is no evidence that long toss improves pitching. DM

[brentmo27]

So Power cleans and Strength training won't help you get faster, or more athletic? Obviously you have to implement other pitching drills, mechanics and coaching strategies, but long toss will aid in advancing arm action, which will improve velocity. Just like strength training will help your speed, explosiveness and athletic ability.

[leftyDM]

Where is the evidence that long toss has anything to do with fast twitch fibers at all. Human beings cannot develop more of anything they do not already have.

This is an example of the common belief that the arm creates it own speed...when biomechanists have proven that arm speed comes from fast trunk rotation. Arm speed has little to do with the arm at all. Why would long toss improve anything more than mound pitching? The myth of long toss continues to waste pitcher's time. Dick Mills

[kevinelay]

Have you ever heard of fast twitch muscles in the human?

You may want to study human anatomy before you spout off that long toss is a waste of time. The human body is made for slow twitch muscle movement. To develop your fast twitch muscle system and follow through, long toss is a sure way to do so.

Pitchers techniques help improve velocity, as well as a fundmental long toss session.

Pitching is two-fold, lower and upper body. Long toss is not a full body workout.

[mfortipitcher]

also when i go to red sox games and yankee games they are long tossing so i dissagree with you

[mfortipitcher]

Mr.Mills

i disagree i've done long toss for over 2 months now and ive followed allen jaegar's program of long toss and honestly i've gained more velocity(about 4mph and it has more movenment)and after the ark which i only go out to 150ft-200ft but from 120-60 is all a line

Mike forti

[strpoonju]

dude i own you

[leftyDM]

Fedhew,

Based on your definition don't pitchers feel and equally strong arm while throwing a fastball from the mound? Why long toss when you can't use the added distance to create improved skills or improved arm action? It is much more difficult to feel "whip" in the arm doing a crow hop on flat ground than it is when pitching down hill where the bracing action of the front leg and hip are what deliver a fast trunk which is how the arm is whipped through.

Dick Mills

[fedhew]

He seems to be equivocating when he uses the term "arm strength." Arm strength in baseball circles obviously does not mean being capable of lifting an enormous amount of weight with one's throwing arm. It simply means that a player with naturally good arm action (lots of "whip") has been training their arm well and, as a result, the player feels capable of releasing their throws with great velocity relatively effortlessly. Their arm feels "strong."

[verona054]

Dick, how can you reply to these idiots. Hey all you long tossers...and i stress tosser. Why dont you just throw a ball against a wall 500 times from 20 feet. Does it make you feel happy to see the ball fly so high and far....keep doing it you ll see many balls like that.

[leftyDM]

How does this help improve pitching from the mound when it has been proven that arm strength is not much of a factor in velocity? Moving away from the rubber into a long stride with proper sequencing will improve velocity. How does throwing long distance help pitchers when it does not help weak-armed left-fielders become strong armed right-fielders?

If it does not help improve an outfielder's arm how will it improve a pitchers?

Should outfielders throw off the mound?

Dick Mills

[italianajventitre]

i started laughing hysterically when i watched this video. it doesnt make sense to say long toss doesnt help, if you do long toss wrong it wont help meaning arcing the ball or throwing rainbows, you need to get to the furthest distance possible where you can still throw line drives keeping the same form as if you were pitching, no crow hop, just lift your leg and fire a frozen rope. as your distance gets further over time you will see that it will be easier for you to throw faster on the mound

[leftyDM]

Kay, It builds up what in your arm? Which muscles are the arm strength muscles? Even if it did build arm strength which science says it does not, why not just pitch from the mound where you will be able to focus on improving your mound skills, all your pitches, shifting your weight downhill and conditioning a release point that you will be able to use against hitters? Nothing in long toss positively transfers to pitching from the mound. Dick Mills

[kaylascute1]

well you say that your not using the same mechanics if ur on a mound and if your doing long toss but it still builds up ur arm

[leftyDM]

Couldn't disagree more. It is late trunk rotation and trunk flexion that gets the lats involved and allow a full stretch. In long toss you get much less trunk rotation and trunk flexion (or back involvement) than by throwing downhill from the mound. I don't hear any quaterbacks or tennis servers who do long throwing or long serving to get more stretch. This theory, like so many others, of course makes no sense. Dick Mills

[PittProjectdsm]

if you actually every tried long tossing yourself you would find out that when you throw at the 45* angle it stretches out you lats and back muscles not to mention ke shoulder muscles that can not be targeted by normal bull pen throwng programs. to build strengh you must tear or break down the muscle tissue first so it can repair stronger. long toss allows those key muscles groups to break down correctly and get the propper stretch that normal short-arm throwing can not produce.

[PittProjectdsm]

long toss also increases muscle endurance which improves the pitchers stamina in games. the same as a long distance runner. you wouldnt train a long distance runner by running 40yd sprints instead of running laps.

[Gomez55555555]

i dont know about this guy

[Degapro1]

i showed my coach this video on my iphone

i hade to run 4 laps around the baseball feild

that "buddy"

[baseballphreak5]

Dick, you FAIL!!!!! FAIL!!!! FAIL!!!!! You did not convince me that's for sure.

[mkeets]

wait longtoss will improve arm strength but not necessarily velocity? im in 8th grade going out for 3rd base next year for my highschool and i want to improve my arm strength. will long tossing help me?

[mikeytothez]

yes, it absolutely will. make sure you run, do dynamics, statics, and sleeper stretches (you can look sleeper stretches up on google if you don't know what they are) and also either a band routine or a 3lb dumbell routine or both. if you try to longtoss without doing those things youll probably get injured after a little while. longtoss will make you throw harder, its just fact.. you have to throw something harder to throw it farther, THAT IS FACT. watch one of the jaeger videos on here..

[leftyDM]

How does throwing long distance stretch your arm out any more than pitching from the mound? Unfortunately there is no truth to this. This may be one of the biggest fallacies about long toss...that it provides some special attributes a pitcher can't get while pitching from the mound. Dick Mills

[UABaseball012]

It teaches players that pitching and throwing at their maximum velocity is just like throwing as far as they can throw, only difference is changing arm angle.

a coach told me that while playing college ball theyd be doing long toss twice a week. and he said thats when he started throwing faster.

[elements1985]

I think there's some truth to this. If pitchers are throwing Hail Marys 300+ yards with ridiculous arc, then I can't see what that does for pitching. But if they're throwing straight lasers to stretch out their arms, they most certainly help.

[fightinillini212]

I use long toss to get my arm loosened up before i go pitch.

By the way...check out my pitching video.

[DemInjuredBoys]

Throw downs as a catcher, i believe it won't help. I just went and saw my physical therapist today, and i'm 14, with elbow problems, and he said that pitchers tend to have weak shoulders, because of all the throwing. Throwing long toss won't help, it just weakens the back of your shoulder, which you need in order to pitch, throw downs etc. So, Long toss is not a good drill. Although i may be 14, But i'm 110% sure that i am right. --DemInjuredBoys

[leftyDM]

Lifeafter79,

Please provide evidence and some reasoning why or how long toss works. If it does not work for outfielders to improve their throwing arms how then does it work for pitchers? There is no evidence that long toss provides any value for pitchers. None.

Dick Mills

[lifeafter79]

Dick, I'm not the one trying to sell or prove something. My point was YOU'RE the one trying to make a point, and you didn't support it well. "If it does not work for outfielders..." WHO said this, or where did you come up with it? I've NEVER heard anyone say that, including Scott Boras, hall of famers, and current big leaguers. If you feel like that's common knowledge, i'm sure i would've heard it by now. Alan Jaeger makes his living off long toss. 10yrs later, still in business. Explain that.

[lifeafter79]

"it can't. it's impossible" not a great point, to support his point

no stats, reports, or references to support his point

just what every pitching coach i've ever heard in my life say... whatever the f*ck he wanted to say

he may have a point. it's just clearly not well supported. shame on ya dick. faaack

[fastball1223]

he is right! in soo many ways but have you heard the jeager programs ideaa about it! they want you to throw how you would in long toss on the mound by throw as hard as you woulfd far but just do it with in 60 ft

[twmatcham]

This bloke makes a lot of sense. Anyone who doubts him may want to look up 'the law of specificity'.

To favre4ever1995, pitchers are made not born. Although one pitcher may have a genetic advantage over another, their biomechanics is real the determining.

[favre4ever1995]

The man doesn't understand that arm whip and arm strength (throwing the ball hard) cannot be taught. It is something you have or you don't. Yes, there are certain things that can be taught to throw the ball harder, but the arm motion and whip cannot be taught.

[brockbadger22]

The funniest thing in this video was "this does not help your pitching, it helps you become a better long tosser", then a couple minutes later he says, loss tossing doesnt help "weak arm" outfielders..... contradiction? so which is it? does it not help arm strength?

And honestly, does practicing pitching over and over going to increase velocity? yes, over time... probably because you get stronger as you age, retard. (in the case of young men) the practice is usually for mechanics and accuracy

[brockbadger22]

In addition to that, what relevance does any of this have to pitching? most people understand that mechanics are generally a difference maker as well as the strength of your legs and of course arm strength.

So this 8 minute video could have been summed up by saying, long toss does not add velocity, improved arm/leg strength with proper mechanics will increase velocity. Tim Lincecum weighs 170s and is generally a skinny guy but the arm speed and mechanics (push off the mound) = his velocity.

[brockbadger22]

obviously it makes sense, but coming from a Red Sox fan its coming off as a little stupid. Im seeing their is inconsistency in the persuasion.... whether or not long toss increases accuracy is the main point we're getting at here, right? yes.

So rambling on about irrelevant points like crow-hopping, defined targets, are specifically pointed at pitching motion, not velocity. And by the way, throwing a ball while crow hopping is not the same but do you not push off the back foot the same?

[aznwilly211]

does it help with throw downs as a catcher?

[morgandynasty09]

oh yeah and coachrond. what the hell are you talking about? there is no comparison to shooting a basketball and GAINING arm strength thats like repetition to building muscle fiber? your an idiot bro just give up

[PackersBearsFan3]

There's no reason to reply by calling people names, it degrades your retort.

Not sure what you were aiming at with it, though. Long toss doesn't gain arm strength, because a baseball weighs 5 oz, the kind of strength you're assuming that would make the 5 oz ball move faster doesn't exist in the arm.

Unless I misread what you typed

[coachrond]

Long toss cannot possibly correct your pitching form since the release point and positioning of the body is totally different from mound pitching. The release point in long toss puts the arm almost directly overhead behind the trunk and far behind the front landing knee...a position no well informed pitching coach would ever tolerate. Practicing long toss is like a basketball player practicing all his shots from the half court line and expecting good results from around the perimeter. Dick

[skatebreeder]

dont listen to this guy. hes a retard. he says that you have to ark the ball to get the ball to your target in long toss. that is true when you first start out. the purpose of long toss is to correct your form of throwing. if you train right then after repeatidly doing long toss everyday you should be able to throw the ball on a downhill slope. long toss helps if you practice correctly

[SovietskiiSniper]

Totally agree: Pitching is about: timing, fluency and balance.

As 50% of your final velocity is carried from your single push as you stride, Long toss doesn'T help with at least half the job.

Perhaps better o nyour back and shoulder? No, you arc your back at the wrong angle and throw your should higher. You toss like this: \ and pitch like this: /.

Drills and long toss never improves technic. Get yourself balls and throw off a mound or at flat at least, but throw as a pitcher.

[rickmiller33]

Surprise! He has a DVD for sale that is the alternative to long toss. It does make sense Dick. Long Toss strengthens the arm to increase velocity AND to condition the arm to prevent injury. This method is widely supported by the medical industry.

[Xarea51]

That is Dick's challenge...show us the 'widely supported' evidence that long toss is beneficial to pitchers in increasing velocity, or 'conditioning the arm' to prevent injury.

Q. Where does it exist?

A: It doesn't.

It falls right in line with the useless towel drills, surgical cord routines, weighted baseballs and icing after every pitching outing. None of which are supportable by anything other than common practice.

[imreallydumb123]

thanks for the vid dude

[leftyDM]

Brewmark,

Baseball is a "belief based" entity. There is no evidence that long toss provides any measurable benefit for pitching. I agree with throwing more but why not do it from the mound where you will improve all your pitching skills including velocity, control and all your pitches. I will be speaking on this issue at the American Sports Medicine Institute's 27th annual baseball injuries course on Jan. 25th in Houston - why long toss is not beneficial for improving pitching. Dick Mills

[brewmark]

Dick, I am confused that so many coaches use long toss methods and you are saying that it doesn't make sense. I believe the more you throw the stronger you get. It is true that proper mechanics and being blessed is why you achieve velocity, but why do so many ML orgs subscribe to long toss programs? If this is true that long toss has nothing to do with anything from a health and well being standpoint when it comes to pitching....We better let all the coordinators and ML pitching coaches know.

[chupalambestaki]

I played up to AA and never saw anyone long toss back in the early 70's. In fact, Roberto Clemente had as strong an arm as anyone and he did not spend much time long tossing. Most of us threw the ball from 90 to 100 feet, we threw often, did very little weight lifting..our conditioning was mainly sprints, calisthentics and we practice like it was a game so the game seemed like practice. If you want to be a good boxer, you need to box...hitting the bag will take you only so far. Pitchers PITCH!

[astroshurler14]

To be correct...you must know that building velocity is a process that has many components. DM wouldn't say that mechanics are the lone factor in producing velocity. It is vital for sure, but it must be accompanied by a strong, functional pitching specific workout program. Ron Wolforth doesn't think that weigted balls are the only thing you need to do to produce velocity either. All good instructors know that there are many things you should do to increase velocity. Anyone who says otherwise..

[astroshurler14]

The logic behind long toss is not a mystery. The further you have to throw the ball..the more effort you put behind the throw. It's a form of overloading..which is an accepted form of making the "pitching muscles" stronger.. DM's point about two guys...one can throw farther than the other in long toss, but the same guy throws slower off the mound. I knew a guy who threw 92 from the outfield and 80 off the mound. Case in point.

[astroshurler14]

I'm a pro pitcher who has hit 97 before, won a National Championship in college, blah blah. Does that make me an expert? Of course not but I have given lessons for years and I do have experience trying many different things including long toss, weighted balls, etc. And I thoroughly enjoy studying the advice from the well known names among the baseball instruction community (Dick Mills, Tom House, Ron Wolforth, Mike Marshall, etc).

[astroshurler14]

I think DM makes some valid arguments here. I thoroughly enjoy studying the advice from the well known names among the baseball instruction community (Dick Mills, Tom House, Ron Wolforth, Mike Marshall, etc). Here's my take. Is long toss completely useless? No, but is it the best way to develop better velocity and mechanics? No.

[TWIBIA]

all building arm strength does is prevents injuries which makes it important, you get your power from leg strength

[PackersBearsFan3]

They're pointing out that arm strength is irrelevant because a ball weighing 5 oz, to move it at a high velocity, strength doesn't play a factor (only in building a good base to prevent injury and to work on specific fitness). Power does, correct positioning of the body, moving explosively, improving the skill of pitching.

Your arm can curl 5000 pounds and you can bench press 5000 pounds and shoulder press 2000 pounds, that doesn't mean you can throw a 5oz object 95 MPH 60 feet 6 inches away.

[52NUKNUK]

hey dick mills, its cj i just got a chance to see the video shocking but true, and well all i can say is thanks .... i hope that you decide to put more video's on so i can get more info and pass this along to my son's coach and have him open his eyes.... and start working this boys the way they need to not just waste time...i think that you are truly a great coach that can back up what he say..so hope to get more info on you tube by you ...just keep moving forward.....thanks for all your help

[cino956]

as a mom i've been around the game long enough to know what's going on.my son pitches in high school and when it comes to drills i have to ask him what it is.I've questioned my son because kids well do whatever their coaches say.if you want to improve your hitting he says go to the batting cage, then i ask him if you want to be a better pitcher he says practice my and pauses and looks at me and continues, practice pitching. exactly!

[jm42256]

This constant battle amongst all of you "experts" is really frustrating.I've checked out Jaeger, House, Mills.I've read Nolan Ryan's book Tom Seaver's book.Mills has gone from saying pull your pivot foot out of the rubber to leave your pivot foot in the hole as long as possible and now it's momentum mechanics.I wonder is this his final adjustment?He may be on to something but I'm just more confused now.I just know I don't want to do anything to hurt a kid or hinder his development.

[leftyDM]

J.M. The book The Science And Art Of Baseball Pitching, which I cowrote with a sports scientist is 624 pages long and contains over 500 scientific references to back up those statements. Other baseball books contain no references. Dick Mills

[Specialkhit]

Ask Mr.Jaeger if he has ANY scientific proof that long-toss will increase pitching velocity and you will hear him tap dance around the scientific part and tell you he has seen it with his own eyes. He has been doing this program for 15 years and yet he can not produce 1 shred of scientific proof as to why you should PAY him to tell you how to long-toss. You might as well be buying "magic-beans". K.B.

[lifesrchpageant]

Heh. If long tossing worked, I would have been an All Star in the Bigs by now. No one long tossed more than me in high school. Back then, coach called it the Kansas City drill.  I wish I had known better back then.

[ShaggyAffiliate]

Long toss is worthless, bout time someone exposed the idiocy in pitching.

[leftyDM]

If long toss worked to improve velocity why is it that the large majority of high school and college pitchers do not improve their velocity through long toss?

Long toss only seems to work for growing and develolping pitchers. It clearly does not work for professional pitchers since many still throw mid to upper 80's. Shouldn't it work for all pitchers of all ages?

Velocity is purely a result of how efficient a pitcher's mechanics are.

[NyDerekJeter2]

Hey man, thanks for answering my email today.

[altoids911101]

Thanks Dick. I looked at your site and added around 8 mph to my fastball. I stopped playing long toss and I ended up throwing harder. Thanks Dick once again. Mike Marshall has nothing on you.