I believe in Joseph Smith the one and only true God. Mr. Smith, or as I like to call him Joe, gave direct orders to hate all gay people. Therefore, I will donate every red cent to see that prop 8 is reenacted..I speak to Joe everyday and he knows we are doing what is morally correct...Yes, I'm a proud Mormon along with my pal Dustin Jolley who auspice's the same views as me..Thanks for listening.
Have you seen the sleezstacks that run the moron church? These men that god has chosen as his mouthpiece?! Are you freaking kidding me? These bloodless beige suite wrinkly white old men represent the almighty god who created the rose, who created the wind, who created the female body. Really? How high on hate and fear and just plain old small town idiocy do you have to be to follow these hateful fossils and worse to send them money? These people need to be banned from America. Who needs them?
The Mormon church is being ridiculous. It, along with other churches, is going out of its way to actively attack the gay rights movement. And yes they do have their first amendment rights, but you cannot attack a person and be surprised when they fight back. They hide behind the walls of their "hallowed ground", actively work to keep people from equal rights, and are surprised when those people show up. Just remember your rights end where they inhibit other's rights.
What they THOUGHT was right was oppressing others. This goes against their sacred commandment to "love one another" even those who do not follow the gospel. It's blatant hypocrisy for mormons to talk about defining marriage as 1 man and 1 woman when they used to define it as 1 man + many women "by revelation"
The mental gymnastics Mormons need to go through in order to justify their faith in easily disprovable aspects of their religion, such as the Book of Abraham, and in their Masonic temple rituals, which are complete with green aprons and secret handshakes (and, until recently, death threats should you divulge these secrets), are enough punishment for them. There's no need to act menacing to them any further. They do it to themselves.
my favorite thing is watching straight homophobes cry bigotry when GLBT's exist in the debate. Your sophistry and lack of integrity is what you get out of life, and that's all you'll ever have, enjoy! :-)
The Churt of latter day saints should be shut the fuck down I am a gay women who respects the veiws of others even though i may not agree but when a church funds commercials that are dripping with hate and bullshit... fuck em
As I an atheism and a non-gay, I truly believe that everyone on this planet have all equal rights. I also believe that there should only be one commandment in life and that is, "Keep thine Religion and Beliefs to yourself."
These gay protesters are bigots, they want me to accept their gay lifestyle, but have absolutely no respect for my religious lifestyle and won't respect my views. TRUE BIGOTS!
I can understand since your view itakes way there right. I would be angry to if someones religious lifestyle took some rights from me because of my skin, oh wait Mormons have done that lol
I just saw on tv how three fags killed a straight guy because he didnt invite one of them for a drink and dint give them a kiss. these kind of people should die. and I dont care what anyone will comment back to me. they all suck!
I'm sooooo glad I have nothing to do with that church any more!!! A bunch of sad people!!! The sanctity of marriage? Funny how to couples in my past ward are getting divorced since they had affairs with other married members of the church! Way to protect marriage!
no, nonsense. No reference to the judeo christian god in the constitution, or the virginia statute and its founding father were deists. No mention of a christian nation either - another invention of the religious right fanatics.
How do you know 'gods mind' so intimately on sexual preference? As for 'natural law' , well, homosexuality is natural occurrence in hundreds of other animal species too.
I'm not gonna argue with you about America's origin: that'd take too long and YouTube isn't the place for it anyways.
But we claim to know what God knows as Mormons because we believe in a prophet that talks to him. So it's a matter of whether you believe in the Mormon faith or not. If Mormons are right, God makes his feelings known to his servants, if Mormons aren't right then Mormons are pulling a bunch of crud from their rear. Either way, it's not something we really can argue.
Yes, but the followers of Mohammed make the same claim as you do. When that belief has consequences for a great many people, and denying gay-affirming Churches the right to religious freedom by denying marriage - thus unconstitutional - this question has to be asked. I can't just take someone's word for it....
Why do you keep talking about fucking donkeys in your comments? What's your fascination with them? Do you like to stick your face in their crotch and blow while shaking your head back and forth? Do they give you the comfort that your mother never did? Or maybe it's the other way around. Maybe they remind you of mommy dearest.
Do you like to stick your face in their crotch and blow while shaking your head back and forth? Do they give you the comfort that your mother never did? Or maybe it's the other way around. Maybe they remind you of daddy dearest.
Yeah, nice try. I'm not the one that kept bringing up donkey sex. Maybe you'd like to spend a romantic night in Tijuana. You could play pin the tail on the donkey, if you know what I mean.
but we do not believe that human law has a right to interfere in prescribing rules of aworship to bind the consciences of men, nor dictate forms for public or private devotion; that the civil magistrate should restrain crime, but never control conscience; should punish bguilt, but never suppress the freedom of the soul.
"We believe that religion is instituted of God; and that men are amenable to him, and to him only, for the exercise of it, unless their religious opinions prompt them to infringe upon the rights and liberties of others;
Only hicks voted yes on prop 8. Only hicks call gay people bigots just because they're protesting for their equal rights. Only hicks think that the Mormons had just a small part in prop 8. Hicks.
First, you state that LA COUNTY voted yes on 8. Then you ask if LA, itself, is hick. So which is it; LA county or LA? You see, almost 60% of Los Angeles voted NO. Do you understand that? This means the MAJORITY of Los Angeles doesn't want hicks living in their city.
WTF is wrong with me? What the fuck's wrong with YOU? You sound just as bad as some dumb Mormon living in Utah; a hick, if you will.
If gay marriage is such a simple human right and, I since you like to quote the founding fathers alot, why is it just now that gay marriage is being argued as a base human right?
Wouldn't the founding fathers have supported such a cause if it is such a base right on which our country was founded upon or did homosexuality only present itself in the 20th century on?
I could care less if gays were allowed to marry. It is harder for me to stay unbiased however based on recent events.
wouldn't the founding fathers never had slavery too if they were all knowing and completely right about everything?
by your logic, we should also take away women's rights to vote and enslave black people again cause after all that's how the founding fathers set things up so who are we mere mortals to question a bunch of dead fat guys in silly wigs?
It seems that internal memos of LDS show the Mormons conspired with the Catholics to attack "homosexual legal marriage" as LDS put it, as far back as '97.
The LDS act like they just innocently participated in the prop 8 measure only recently and not in reality the instigators. "Just a part of a coalition of churches" who just happened to join in the coalition of inequality.
google search --> dailykos (update w/ video X2 + Darcy Burner) Prop 8: DEVASTATING internal memo from the LDS Church
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
Loving v. Virginia, U.S. Supreme Court, June 12, 1967
"The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men."
How then does voting for inequality still pass as "sacrosanct"? I think it's un-American.
I used to live in a mormon community in Idaho. They are some of the nicest people that I've ever met. Not just the mormons. The Christians, Military members, Latinos, Blacks, Whites, Asians, Middle eastern people. Pretty much every body helped pass prop 8. Mormons are just part on it. Leave them alone.
Mormon money is responsible for the law, nice try to weasel out of it, but that's why you're a bigot. You have no integrity and it hurts, doesn't it? So much for the "morals" religion teaches, eh?
Wow GodHatesFAQS your argument is just good enough to convince a 5th grader to come to your side....maybe you should have tried for an argument that appealed to voting age people
My feelings are hurt and I am pissed. F the Mormons. I will never sit quietly on the sidelines while the Mormons passively take my rights away. F being civil. I wonder how they would respond if we took away hetero Marriage? Hmmmm. maybe we should put that to a vote!
"These folks are mindless, marching to a drum of their "leaders" and unwittingly are working to destroy the first Amendment"
Yeah, and that's not bigotry AT ALL...
You know, now that Prop8 passed I think I'm done. Fuck politics, fuck democrats, fuck republicans, fuck churches, fuck torture prisons, fuck gay rights issues, and fuck everyone who makes up their mind before they hear the whole issue. Anyone who forms an opinion before they know what the issue is all about is a fucking idiot.
Gays are supposedly fighting for equal rights. Yet, they are protesting the fact that people exercised their right to vote (against them) and religions rights to believe what they choose. Huge contradiction on their part. The Gay community seems to only believe in free speech and rights when it mirrors their own.
You dare to hate in the name of Jesus!!! Arn't all peple made to resamble God??? How can You hate the children of your own God??? Isn't hate spread out by the devil??? so basically...you hate other people...you wear the true skin of the devil.....mormon=666
That ad, which ran the DAY of the election and never before, was not put out by the "No on 8" official campaign.
Marriage is guaranteed by the Constitution. It's a fundamental right under the Constitution. Same-sex marriage is a fundamental right under the CA Constitution. If it weren't, there would be no need to amend it, would there?
I don't think you can pinpoint any one reason why Prop 8 passed. Most of the votes at teh margin were probably due to voter confusion.
How was the "no on 8" campaign misleading? That's blatantly false.
Gays don't want limit relgious rights. If a church is targeting gays, why can't gays target that church with criticism? Should they ignore that it was these churches who spread lies about them.
The irony of Mormons holding signs claiming that the "God-ordained" and "traditional" form of marriage is ONE man and ONE woman is overwhelming. No, sorry. I mean RIDICULOUS.
The only one form of marriage - man and woman ridiculous? I won't go into details here but retake your biology class and think what relationships are ridiculous.
Argument that some people might like things differently is invalid. You might like smoking marihuana. We can still be friends and I can't prevent you from doing smoking, etc. but I won't support laws making drugs legal, because whether you like them or not - THEY ARE WRONG.
Maybe this is a language barrier. I didn't say that the idea itself is ridiculous. I said that it's ridiculous that Mormons are claiming that "traditional" marriage is between one man and ONE woman is ridiculous because Joseph Smith and tons of other Mormons openly practiced polygamy for years, which is why they fled to Utah. It wasn't until the US government started to target them that the Mormons decided that God changed his mind and polygamy was no longer okay.
As a Polish person, don't you feel a little embarrassed to advocate a religion that some alcoholic whacko invented in the United States? Don't you think it's weird that God revealed his true gospel (in grammatically poor English) to some American guy who all his life wished and hoped to have "magic powers." Well, he sure got them and used them over a bunch of crazy followers.
"As a Polish person, don't you feel a little embarrassed..."
I would feel embarrassed if what you wrote weren't lies just as much as I would feel embarrassed to follow some simple carpenter's son. You know what they would say about Him: "Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!"(Luke 7:34)
I am actually following the carpenter's Son and I try to follow everything He has revealed through ancient and modern prophets (yes - even those who were simple farmers).
Thank you LDS. Your efforts to mobilize massive amounts of money and labor to work against equal rights has galvanized our community and supporters. We haven't had a community response like this since our 1969 Stonewall riots.
On the other hand, LDS has set its public image back decades. Members resigning, recruitment among affluent tithers much more difficult. Learn how to let people live and love the way the chose and focus your resources on helping people, and not dividing them. Good luck!
4. then paste this to 4 other video's, if you do this your crush will kiss you on the nearest friday! But if you read this and did not paste this, then you will have very bad luck! btw
hahah, gay 'bigots' ... right. What exactly are they trying to do, prevent your dumb LDS magic-underwear morons from marrying or just trying to gain rights for THEMSELVES!
The Mormon leadership urged its followers to support Prop 8 and ended up funneling $20 million into the campaign.
They were responsible for destroying families and civil rights. They used vicious lies to deceive voters. Now they are whining and complaining because the gay community in CA is angry at them.
Trust me, the Mormon leadership deserves an earful on this. If they can't take it, they should not have entered the debate to begin with. Sorry.
Protesting at a sacred place of worship takes this issue out of context. It's like they're protesting against the Church instead of for gay marriage. Though I am a Latter-day Saint, I don't know everything gays go through but I know that they're loved by the Lord, and the reason why we support Prop 8 is because we want them to someday experience the blessings of families and eternity. Some may support prop 8 for hate but the real reason behind it is pure love.
Here's the way I see it; Mormons changing the laws so gays can't marry is like Jews changing the laws so that Mormons can't eat pork. Their standards are not our standards, our standards are not their standards, but we all must live in this world peaceably. Gods laws were established for in God's house('kingdom'). Man's government, laws are for the management of man. The US is not Gods kingdom. As long as elected officials hold power, I fear any government official who pretends to speak for God.
Yes - USA is democracy. What is democracy? People can vote and the majority wins.
That's what happened in California. You make it sound as if the Church sent the Young Single Adults to Sacramento to defeat Arnold and establish no-gay zone.
I live in a town with some Gypsy community. Stealing is part of their culture, but our standards are not their standards and in order for us to live peaceably - they had to accept some of our standards. They even started sending their kids to schools.
Abinidai, the Gypsies helped you understand how cooperating societies work. You don't seem happy about their interpretation of appropriate behavior, but recognize their right to an education. Good for you!
Please remember, a democracy isn't the tyranny of 'the majority rules'. It is the form of government which ensures all parties get fair representation,'Equal under the law.' Slaves (who were once considered chattel) won recognition of personhood, not by vote, but judicially. So, gay rights.
The Gypsies in our community used to refuse sending their kids to schools, but since our government started enforcing our country's values on them (no stealing, no vagrancy, etc.), they started integrating and recently they even started sending their children to schools. We welcome them in schools and do everything to help them feel comfortable.
I understand that democracy is not rule of majority over minority, etc. but you seem to want to have minority rule over majority.
Gays and lesbians want to adopt children and send their gay missionaries to public schools to teach kids how nice it is to have to daddies (like they do here in Europe). They want to be able to use legal means to force their standards on religious organizations, etc.
People in CA said no, but you think it shouldn't count. What is your definition of democracy?
No amount of persuasion will befuddle a person into thinking its preferable to have two daddies rather than a dad and a mom. The idea of 'gay missionaries' is completely reactionary. The legal means will never stand up in court. Marriage has never been forced on a church. (Congregations have refused to marry non parishoners for centuries, and for us, temple recommends shut out 90% of our very own members!) It is a campaign based on fear. Gays just want government recognition of their marriage.
thats not true... catholic services did not give a baby to a gay couple and they were forced to shut down services because the were sued.... and why?? they should have had the right to say no by what you are saying... its not fear its reality!
I hope you are right (about gay people just wanting recognition of their marriage). Actually - I do believe most of them probably do, but unfortunately what has happened in Europe suggests that it might not end there.
I also believe that a homosexual's visit in school wouldn't make my son gay, etc. but the laws we make do reflect our values. Sexual perversions are devils standards that don't lead where we want our civilization to go (Sodom, Gomorrah).
You think being gay is a sexual perversion? I am amazed that people who hold such biggoted views still don't understand why gays are upset over what has happened.
And being from a country that has legalized marriage for same-sex couples (Canada), I can assure you that nothing substantial will change. People on both sides have come to terms with it and have realized that it's really no big deal.
I have some homosexual friends and they know that their perversion doesn't effect our friendship and respect for each other. They have their problems I have mine own.
They are aware that I do accept the Bible as truth and everybody who does - whether they are politically correct or not (like myself) - they do know that homosexuality is perversion and doesn't lead to happiness but misery.
What used to be common knowledge now some call bigotry. Oh well, times change (God's word doesn't).
You can't just say you have gay friends and expect us to believe you, dude. You are clearly lying.
And doesn't God's word change? Abraham was a polygamist. Is polygamy okay?
I'd also point out that they Bible does not contain the word "homosexual" or "same-sex relationship" anywhere in it. Maybe your translation does, but it's not in the original text. It's simply not.
"You can't just say you have gay friends and expect us to believe you, dude."
Yea - I can't prove it - you're right, but you must agree that I have a better idea who my friends are than you. Actually - you have no idea if I am lying.
But seriously - do you check if someone agrees with you on everything before you may consider to be his/her friend?
"I'd also point out that they Bible does not contain the word "homosexual" or "same-sex relationship" anywhere in it."
I my gosh! I couldn't even find "prop 8" anywhere! Your argument is very convincing!
I found this though:
"...their males also abandoned their natural sexual function toward females and burned with lust toward one another. Males committed indecent acts with males, and received within themselves the appropriate penalty for their perversion." (Romans 1:27)
The fascist thugs that are pro gay marriage show their true colors. They are hypocrites. Now everybody can see their true nature and biogotry. Gay marriage is now dead for decades. They killed it themselves. Congrats idiots.
pnp2k6- It is sad that u actually mentioned the LA Times, everyone knows how bias they are. It is unfortunate that because a group of people didnt get their way, that they took to the streets the very next day and attacked THE ONLY people that wouldnt fight back. It is not only disgusting, it is appauling. Try doing what my KIDS do...REASON with people in charge. Stop throwing fits.
Too late, been "reasoning" for too long. What's sad is that, because a person is gay, they are told to be quiet and do what we are told. The time for passivity has passed. We DID get our way, in may 2008. in Nov 2008, our WAY was taken away, illegally. We won't stand for it. We WILL organize and radicalize, until we get treated equally. You can think it's disgusting or appauling, I don't really care. What I do care about is equal rights for all.
Now for all you gays, put your toes in first in your jackboots then put your armband on your left arm. March now! Threaten, tear up the place and howl at those LDS types. Just forget the fact 70% of blacks and latinos voted YES on 8. Just don't march against them least you be shown for the bigots you truly are.
Nothing will ever be forced on you, and I'm sorry you have had to live with this unnecessary fear. I'm also sorry for the person who gave you that information, because they were sadly misguided. Peace. Calm. Faith. Understanding.
I dont understand why the mormon church couldn't accept peaceful coexistence. If the church hadn't participated, it would have been able to prevent these backlashes. It almost seems as if the intent was to incite the gay contingency to anger. (an intent on digging in, drawing a line in the sand, and facing off)
I totally agree. Why don't you watch just a few anti-Prop. 8 videos and a few pro-Prop. 8 ones and honestly say which ones are the peacemakers (Mormon missionaries breaking into some lesbian's house to steal their wedding rings, etc. - not very peaceful to me).
Look at the wickedness of these unrepentant sinners. The votes have spoken and yet they cry foul. The Americans who didn't choose Obama aren't acting as such. You we're beat hands down none other then by blacks in 3 States. What are you going to call them Racists or some such nonsense? Maybe the Pres. Elect will give the courts the power to overturn the rule of law and really screw himself in 2012.
Well Ken, I'm mormon and I hate the fact that my church didn't seem to be able to trust me to make my own informed decision, or vote my conscience. I hate that my ecclesiastical authority it telling me what I must do in my temporal life. Moreover, I hate the fact that the church ordered my great grand father into a polygamous marriage, sent him to Mexico, and then when my grandmother wanted to come to live in the US, she had to swear in court she was a bastard. Mormons must Remember persecution
"Well Ken, I'm mormon and I hate the fact that my church didn't seem to be able to trust me to make my own informed decision, or vote my conscience. I hate that my ecclesiastical authority it telling me what I must do in my temporal life."
It's probably time for you to find out what the Church is and how different it is from all other organizations in the world. I believe it's the Kingdom of God. Our King doesn't force us to do anything, but He does expect us to sustain His decisions.
I trust in the Lord, and sustain his decisions. I believe in a personal God, as I was taught in Primary. I was never taught that a prophet was to stand between me and my God. In this case, I feel, (and I suspect you feel differently...) that the prophet, for the second time in my life, in telling me what to do rather than asking me to vote my conscience, has stepped in between me and my God. (the first time was with the ERA) A prophet should not be a substitute for God.
Bitherwack - You are not the first one who is willing to trust God until you feel you are smarter than him. You are not the first one who trusts He has the power to create the world but He is not powerful enough to lead His Church through priesthood. I believe that because people in the beg. of Christianity had similar attitudes - the apostasy began. Not a good idea - in my opinion.
bitherwack- where do you live? Are you in California where all of this is really happening or are you in Utah?
I was told by my Bishop (as was the rest of our ward) to vote how we wanted. THis was a personal choice for everyone and if you felt you wanted to be involved, then get involved. If not, dont. Sorry your situation was different. :o(
I'm not going to risk my ward being a target for reprisals, so I don't feel great about being specific...
I envy your ward, I'm impressed with the Bishop's maturity. I'd be lying if I didn't say its been a genuine trial of my faith. My faith in the gospel has not changed, but I'm having trouble with 'our inspired leaders' I can sustain them in all other regards but this. I feel there has been an abuse of authority, and hope I can get over it before the next temple recommend. (What will I say?!)
lol..it looks funny on here when you cant see what I wrote to you first bitherwack.
It is good to see that you are actually still wanting a temple recommend. :o) I caution you this....before being swept away with anger and bitterness, take time to breathe. Sort out all of your thoughts and then proceed to post. This is coming from someone who can be reactionary and then find out later the consequences.
The gospel of Jesus Christ is true, the PEOPLE of the church are just that. People.
There are a couple of major differences. Blacks on the whole didn't donate money, or volunteer. There was no concerted effort to get out the antigay black vote, and there was no organization created by the african american community to address gay marriage. There were also no blacks from other states working toward prop8's passing, and no phone banks using black membership rolls for canvassing. Southern Baptist churches did not tell their congregations that calamity would happen if prop8 failed.
"Southern Baptist churches did not tell their congregations that calamity would happen if prop8 failed."
I don't think the LDS Church said such a thing, but even if it did - what do you think that would mean?
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)
Of all the things for the church to speak out on, I'm surprised it wasn't the wholesale genocide in Iraq (Murder is the greatest sin) or the trampling of the Constitution ("an inspired document") Elder Bednar said; if Prop8 passed, it would be inviting anger and accusations of intolerance. I felt a peaceful coexistence was the best way to prevent anger. The courts recognised civil rights, then the church helped eliminate them. I can understand their hurt. Peaceful Coexistence WAS the mormon way.
Yes, 8th generation (With a string of GAs in the family history) You may be surprised, but I'm our ward's HPGL. Not everyone is happy about not feeling like we had a choice, or the opportunity to 'bring it to the Lord' I know some who felt it was a widespread case of 'abuse of authority.' I'm not sure I would go that far. I think it was a mild form of 'mass hysteria' like mob mentality, where no one really spent the time to think the scenario through. How could they not have expected a backlash?
The Bible and other scriptures are full of cases where God gave his servants commandments that were difficult to keep. I am glad that when Abraham was commanded to sacrifice his son, instead of turning against the Lord and shouting about "abuse of authority", he simply went and did what he was asked (not forced) to do.
I think the question you should ask is - do you have a testimony of the Lord and his work, or not? Do you want to be like Nephi and Sam or Laman and Lemuel?
We all want to be like Nephi, but we also need to always be wary of being deceived. Do you remember the 'Son of Sam' murders? He thought God commanded him to kill those people.
A sweet, very devout sister in our ward said at the beginning of the Iraq war that it was an excellent thing; the Iraqis will be prevented from sinning anymore, and can go directly to their 'reward'. I thought with horror, this woman has just rationalized the wholesale murder of innocent Iraqis- with scriptural context!
I don't think that sister in your ward should have said that, but perhaps there is a reason why she hasn't been called as the president of the Church.
Really? So what you are saying is that if she wasn't a woman would be called to the presidency of the Church? I told you yesterday - with your inspiration you should for awhile lead this Church. I am sure you would do much better job than the one whose Church it is.
(By the way - if RS president tells you she prefers Chicago Bulls over Utah Jazz - you can still be saved if you cheer for Utah Jazz)
I agree, Abinadi, and I'll go one better; if the prophet told me to root for the Bulls and I decided to root for the Jazz, I'm not at the peril of my salvation. (My father was a GA, and that didn't mean that if I didn't make my bed when told, I was disregarding holy revelation.)
As regarding your suggestion that I lead the church, I'm not sure if you are being facetious or not. I would make a horrible leader. (I have a real problem with authority-- suffered too much authority abuse as a child)
I'm fine with the protest at the Temple, as long as they are peacefull. I actually think the publicity is good for the church. I think that the signs many of them are holding in LA have NOTHING to do with gay marriage and are more of an attack on the Church. It seems like a childish elementary school tactic, but it's their right. The backlash seems more like mob mentality to me, and the mass hysteria can be seen in many pictures and videos on youtube.
Quoting scripture does not help this unfortunate situation. We are targeting the LDS church because of the astounding amount of money they poured into this proposition. Follow the Money, and you will find the true Bigots!
But actually, No On 8 campaign raised more money then the church did, and also, the majority of voters that ultimatlely tipped Prop. 8 to pass wasn't the Mormon Church, wasn't Catholic, Jewish, Muslim or Christian churches, no it was the African Americans. 70% voted Yes on Prop. 8, and, also voted for Obama (who might I add, is against homosexual marriage, but, like McCain, supports civil union) So why don't they protest in Compton? Or in front of predominatly African American churches?
That's simply not true. $38 million was raised to ban same sex marriage, of that $26 million came from LDS. $36 million was raised for upholding the supreme courts decision to allow same sex marriage. As far as protesting in front of African American Churches.. Don't worry, all bigots will be revealed. Just wait. If this prop doesn't get turned over in the courts, the gay radical movement will thrive. It's already taking root in Chicago, where I live.
This was in an article entitled "Why Gay Marriage Was Defeated in California" on Yahoo news, Nov. 6, 2008
"According to an analysis of the most recent reports from the California secretary of state, the pro-equality side raised an astonishing $43.6 million, compared with just $29.8 million for those who succeeded in keeping gays from marrying."
What about hate against the church? Is that not another form of bigotry?
The church is a private institution, its members are able to vote as they please just like anyone else. Are we not also standing up for our beliefs as well? The difference is, we haven't resorted to violence...
Sorry Miss Kitty, your facts don't jibe with the LA Times. I don't understand why it is so hard for people to understand that if you discriminate against a group of people, that group will eventually retaliate. For you to expect us to just "shut up and accept it", is the exact reason why we are becoming radical. For too long, we have sat and waited for our equality, just as blacks did during the civil rights movement. We finally get the right to marry, and you take it away? So not cool!
Sounds good.. Just so long as it isn't like all the other personal messages I get, you know like "Just Die Fag", or "Get Aids". or my fav.. "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve"... LOL!
The money came from LDS members... not the church itself. If a dictator judge can give you "rights" they can also take it away. In court no matter what state... case law is used... so if it happened there guess what California would do. There was a Consitutional way for the. If you take government out and make it a religious ceremony like it was 100 years ago there would be no conflict... but this country has ignored the Constitution for a long time.
I am not an American, but I've always heard that in the US you are innocent until you are proven guilty. My question is then - does anybody have any PROVE THAT THE LDS CHURCH "POURED" MONEY INTO PROP. 8? If not - those who criticize the Church and organize those protests are either pathetic (they are simply mad they lost) or they are like dumb, naive sheep who follow the crowd (like those who screamed "crucify him" because their leaders told them to do it).
It's because the mormon church crossed the state lines. If they had left the referendum up to the people of California, it probably would have been voted down. But with all the misinformation advertized on the church's (member's) tab, it completely confused the issue. The church is lucky this democratic republic preserves the rights of the minority, or the mormon church would have been eliminated years ago. If the members could realize that, they would have been more accepting of gay rights.
You cant be serious? You do realize that both sides had out of state funding? But really, its okay....keep demonstrating and showing hate towards one church. It is showing the world how truly intolerant and hateful you are towards them and makes the mormon church look like the little child in the schoolyard being bullied for getting an A on the test. This is really looking bad for the no on Prop 8 campaign.
Actually Shaunamom, I'm serious. I'm mormon, and I resented being bullied from the pulpit on how to vote. I resent being told how to campaign, and who to contact, and given a phoning script to read from.(The requests happend outside of the church building, but through church leaders in private...in an effort to skirt the impression of partiality...the sneakiness was offputting) There were excommunications for advocating NoOnProp8.
I don't hate my church, but I feel I don't recognize it anymore.
Well, I suppose the gays could have just done like the Yes on 8 people and spread lies. Like the poor old Mormon woman who called me and told me (and I'm sure she believed this awful lie) that people have been arrested for just for being against gay marriage. She didn't want to say she was Mormon, but when I asked about her faith she used words that clued me in (like "celestial") and then she admitted it. I feel bad that Mormons have been persecuted, but now they are returning the favor.
"I feel bad that Mormons have been persecuted, but now they are returning the favor."
How many homosexuals have the Mormons murdered? How many have they driven our of their homes? When did Utah's governor sign an extermination order against gay people? When did Mormon mob stoned to death gay leaders?
Mormons (and many other Christians) simply used their democratic right to vote. So - just calm down.
You are not Christian. Stop saying you are Christian. Do you believe that Jesus is God? If not, you are not a Christian, not matter how many times you say it. Stop trying to change the traditional definition of Christian. (Irony 201 from the Mormons).
(NOTE: I don't advocate picketing the LDS Temples. I think it's counterproductive. Though, I think the grave sins of a misleading and deceitful campaign that tricked undecided voters to support 8, will rest forever on their souls.
"Stop saying you are Christian. Do you believe that Jesus is God? If not, you are not a Christian, not matter how many times you say it. Stop trying to change the traditional definition of Christian."
Yes, I do believe Jesus is God. I believe in EVERYTHING He has revealed. I even rejected the "traditional definition" of "Christian" and decided to accept not only those things He revealed in ancient times but also those things he reveals now. Read NT and check what it means to be Christian.
You are POLISH! You don't even live in this country. How can you say what has and has not happened here? You are just a brainwashed product of the Mormon campaign to spread their word throughout the world because most Americans are not buying what they are selling. So don't get your magic undies in a twist.
PrepeiNaSasPw: "You are just a brainwashed product of the Mormon campaign to spread their word throughout the world because most Americans are not buying what they are selling. So don't get your magic undies in a twist."
What a nice Christian comment 8O)
BIGOT: "One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ."
I checked the YouTube Com. Guidelines and it looks like I actually CAN post comments even if I am Polish. Sorry. 8O)
Face it, cooperating has gotten gays nowhere, they are fed-up with being treated as second class citizens. You talk about gays being intolerent...they are just following the example of all the homophobes who have 'kept them in their place.'
I'm a little surprised its taken so long...
They had so much hope, and to have it all taken away would be frustrating to anyone... even the most tolerant.
The mormon church may have been part of a coalition, but the majority of the funds, and efforts were supplied by mormons, and that is a fact which is not debatable.
" the majority of the funds, and efforts were supplied by mormons, and that is a fact which is not debatable."
You probably don't know that, but I sure hope this is true. I am so proud of all the right minded people in California (LDS, Catholics and others) who helped pass Prop. 8! We should love all people but perversion should not be supported by your country's law. Your country was built on Christian values.
No, I don't think it is a good idea to stone anyone, but if the majority of Americans believe that Sunday should be kept holy - why not make laws that will make it impossible for employers (including store owners) to force their employees to work on Sundays.
Remember - in democracy not only minorities have rights - the majority should have rights too. The majority in California decided that marriage is between man and woman. Good for them!
"the majority of the funds, and efforts were supplied by mormons, and that is a fact which is not debatable."
How is it "a fact which is not debatable"? How many times you have to be lied to before something untrue becomes an undebatable fact?
Here is a fact:
"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has made no cash donations in support of Proposition 8. Individual members of the Church together with other like-minded citizens have made donations to the Proposition 8 coalition."
When the church resorts to arm-twisting, and authority abuse to reach that aim; when the church excommuncates someone for advocating NoOnProp8, you know that though the church has worked hard to maintain an illusion of distance, it has pressed the issue farther than a definition of a 'collection of individual's democratic vote of conscience' could be interpereted. Advocating a stance, and threatening someone with hellfire and damnation is vastly different. We mormons don't even believe in 'hell'
I believe in Joseph Smith the one and only true God. Mr. Smith, or as I like to call him Joe, gave direct orders to hate all gay people. Therefore, I will donate every red cent to see that prop 8 is reenacted..I speak to Joe everyday and he knows we are doing what is morally correct...Yes, I'm a proud Mormon along with my pal Dustin Jolley who auspice's the same views as me..Thanks for listening.
MusicMan3423 1 month ago
Oh no, one of the most bigoted religious groups in america has to experience bigotry themselves. boo hoo, cry me a fucking river. fucking mormons.
d3rkaderk4 10 months ago
Have you seen the sleezstacks that run the moron church? These men that god has chosen as his mouthpiece?! Are you freaking kidding me? These bloodless beige suite wrinkly white old men represent the almighty god who created the rose, who created the wind, who created the female body. Really? How high on hate and fear and just plain old small town idiocy do you have to be to follow these hateful fossils and worse to send them money? These people need to be banned from America. Who needs them?
surfrider001 1 year ago
The Mormon church is being ridiculous. It, along with other churches, is going out of its way to actively attack the gay rights movement. And yes they do have their first amendment rights, but you cannot attack a person and be surprised when they fight back. They hide behind the walls of their "hallowed ground", actively work to keep people from equal rights, and are surprised when those people show up. Just remember your rights end where they inhibit other's rights.
KOLN555 1 year ago
@Kellyslaterfan
What they THOUGHT was right was oppressing others. This goes against their sacred commandment to "love one another" even those who do not follow the gospel. It's blatant hypocrisy for mormons to talk about defining marriage as 1 man and 1 woman when they used to define it as 1 man + many women "by revelation"
/ex-mormon
ssjbriguy 1 year ago
"Separation of church and state" if this is a christian nation fine give me solid 100 percent undeniable proof god exist.
MrSinister84 2 years ago
We're not through with the Mormons.
Gulfporter 2 years ago
Two words = Majority rules.
Tejanito 2 years ago
@Tejanito
Two words- we're armed.
Gulfporter 2 years ago
The mental gymnastics Mormons need to go through in order to justify their faith in easily disprovable aspects of their religion, such as the Book of Abraham, and in their Masonic temple rituals, which are complete with green aprons and secret handshakes (and, until recently, death threats should you divulge these secrets), are enough punishment for them. There's no need to act menacing to them any further. They do it to themselves.
danielsir 2 years ago
they spent millions on the campaign. Thanks for staying informed on this issue.
kern0099 2 years ago
my favorite thing is watching straight homophobes cry bigotry when GLBT's exist in the debate. Your sophistry and lack of integrity is what you get out of life, and that's all you'll ever have, enjoy! :-)
kern0099 2 years ago
X= You sound like a vulgar skag.
bdjennings 2 years ago
The Churt of latter day saints should be shut the fuck down I am a gay women who respects the veiws of others even though i may not agree but when a church funds commercials that are dripping with hate and bullshit... fuck em
XxswankybitchxX 2 years ago
Natural law .... and Christian Nation... dude, you're stupid.
shantetree 2 years ago
And after the video ends, the gays all go to the polls and vote away the rights of mormons to marry! Truly an act of bigotry, right there.
NotPotable 2 years ago
As I an atheism and a non-gay, I truly believe that everyone on this planet have all equal rights. I also believe that there should only be one commandment in life and that is, "Keep thine Religion and Beliefs to yourself."
Suck it up and get used to it. Move on!
T69bonez 2 years ago
These gay protesters are bigots, they want me to accept their gay lifestyle, but have absolutely no respect for my religious lifestyle and won't respect my views. TRUE BIGOTS!
UtahImplosion 2 years ago
and you're a bigot too my dirty dirty devil friend.
whyuahater3 2 years ago
you made my point exactly, you want me to respect you're beliefs, but you have no respect for mine. Thank you for proving my point.
UtahImplosion 2 years ago
Comment removed
whyuahater3 2 years ago
I can understand since your view itakes way there right. I would be angry to if someones religious lifestyle took some rights from me because of my skin, oh wait Mormons have done that lol
MrSinister84 2 years ago
ROCK ON EQUALITY.... MUCH LOVE
bluesept22 2 years ago
I just saw on tv how three fags killed a straight guy because he didnt invite one of them for a drink and dint give them a kiss. these kind of people should die. and I dont care what anyone will comment back to me. they all suck!
Axelich 2 years ago
How many gays have been killed by straight guys?.......Shut up!
verybadtongue 2 years ago
I said Dont give shit about what you comment back!
Axelich 2 years ago
ya call em out fags and niggers spics cunts woohoo spread it baby i know hitler would be proud!!
bluesept22 2 years ago
I'm sooooo glad I have nothing to do with that church any more!!! A bunch of sad people!!! The sanctity of marriage? Funny how to couples in my past ward are getting divorced since they had affairs with other married members of the church! Way to protect marriage!
SoCalGuy20 2 years ago
no, nonsense. No reference to the judeo christian god in the constitution, or the virginia statute and its founding father were deists. No mention of a christian nation either - another invention of the religious right fanatics.
How do you know 'gods mind' so intimately on sexual preference? As for 'natural law' , well, homosexuality is natural occurrence in hundreds of other animal species too.
amsterdammed71 2 years ago
I'm not gonna argue with you about America's origin: that'd take too long and YouTube isn't the place for it anyways.
But we claim to know what God knows as Mormons because we believe in a prophet that talks to him. So it's a matter of whether you believe in the Mormon faith or not. If Mormons are right, God makes his feelings known to his servants, if Mormons aren't right then Mormons are pulling a bunch of crud from their rear. Either way, it's not something we really can argue.
PakarRhoy 2 years ago
Yes, but the followers of Mohammed make the same claim as you do. When that belief has consequences for a great many people, and denying gay-affirming Churches the right to religious freedom by denying marriage - thus unconstitutional - this question has to be asked. I can't just take someone's word for it....
amsterdammed71 2 years ago
all gays can go suck a dick
blazzII 3 years ago
Why do you keep talking about fucking donkeys in your comments? What's your fascination with them? Do you like to stick your face in their crotch and blow while shaking your head back and forth? Do they give you the comfort that your mother never did? Or maybe it's the other way around. Maybe they remind you of mommy dearest.
EatTinker 3 years ago
What's with your fixation on hicks?
Do you like to stick your face in their crotch and blow while shaking your head back and forth? Do they give you the comfort that your mother never did? Or maybe it's the other way around. Maybe they remind you of daddy dearest.
CHARESTHEHAMER 3 years ago
Yeah, nice try. I'm not the one that kept bringing up donkey sex. Maybe you'd like to spend a romantic night in Tijuana. You could play pin the tail on the donkey, if you know what I mean.
EatTinker 3 years ago
No you just keep bringing up hicks.
CHARESTHEHAMER 3 years ago
I know,
efrainherrera1 3 years ago
but we do not believe that human law has a right to interfere in prescribing rules of aworship to bind the consciences of men, nor dictate forms for public or private devotion; that the civil magistrate should restrain crime, but never control conscience; should punish bguilt, but never suppress the freedom of the soul.
googita 3 years ago
"We believe that religion is instituted of God; and that men are amenable to him, and to him only, for the exercise of it, unless their religious opinions prompt them to infringe upon the rights and liberties of others;
googita 3 years ago
Every mormon who voted yes on Prop 8 VIOLATED their own scriptures. Specifically D&C 134:4
googita 3 years ago
gay is the new black how about my friend duane catten jr gay mormon killed himself to much pressure from lds
nwcchinalake 3 years ago
Only hicks voted yes on prop 8. Only hicks call gay people bigots just because they're protesting for their equal rights. Only hicks think that the Mormons had just a small part in prop 8. Hicks.
EatTinker 3 years ago
Piss off you ass eating, donkey raping, bug chasing fag.
Maybe you failed to notice but LA County voted yes on 8.
Is LA Hick to you?
Fact is it's bigger than San Francsico.
Now go catch yourself an STD loser.
CHARESTHEHAMER 3 years ago
Only hicks voted yes on Prop 8. LA county is full of them. I have to brush people like you (hicks) out of my way on a daily basis.
EatTinker 3 years ago
"Only hicks voted yes on Prop 8. LA county is full of them"
WTF is wrong with you?
CHARESTHEHAMER 3 years ago
First, you state that LA COUNTY voted yes on 8. Then you ask if LA, itself, is hick. So which is it; LA county or LA? You see, almost 60% of Los Angeles voted NO. Do you understand that? This means the MAJORITY of Los Angeles doesn't want hicks living in their city.
WTF is wrong with me? What the fuck's wrong with YOU? You sound just as bad as some dumb Mormon living in Utah; a hick, if you will.
EatTinker 3 years ago
Maybe you don't know but a county can be refered to by just it's name.
"This means the MAJORITY of Los Angeles doesn't want hicks living in their city."
Wow talk about jumping to conclusions.
And you sound like a donkey fluffer.
A worthless cocksucker you might say.
CHARESTHEHAMER 3 years ago
you got over interracial marriage, you'll get over same-sex marriage
roses4thedeadx 3 years ago
eVVVVV,
If gay marriage is such a simple human right and, I since you like to quote the founding fathers alot, why is it just now that gay marriage is being argued as a base human right?
Wouldn't the founding fathers have supported such a cause if it is such a base right on which our country was founded upon or did homosexuality only present itself in the 20th century on?
I could care less if gays were allowed to marry. It is harder for me to stay unbiased however based on recent events.
moabute 3 years ago
wouldn't the founding fathers never had slavery too if they were all knowing and completely right about everything?
by your logic, we should also take away women's rights to vote and enslave black people again cause after all that's how the founding fathers set things up so who are we mere mortals to question a bunch of dead fat guys in silly wigs?
Things change. It's called progress.
BurningOrchids 3 years ago
What I don't understand is they say their rights were violated. But if the majority voted against it how is it violating their rights?
healthnbeauty1 3 years ago
why dont all u gays leave us mormons alone
davidlui96 3 years ago
why don't all you mormons leave us gays alone?
kern0099 2 years ago
That's how those people and our Church is different.
dkanrjskgo 3 years ago
I wouldn't call peaceful protesting, on either sides, bigotry.
MoarSpore 3 years ago
It seems that internal memos of LDS show the Mormons conspired with the Catholics to attack "homosexual legal marriage" as LDS put it, as far back as '97.
The LDS act like they just innocently participated in the prop 8 measure only recently and not in reality the instigators. "Just a part of a coalition of churches" who just happened to join in the coalition of inequality.
google search --> dailykos (update w/ video X2 + Darcy Burner) Prop 8: DEVASTATING internal memo from the LDS Church
eVVVVV 3 years ago
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
Loving v. Virginia, U.S. Supreme Court, June 12, 1967
"The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men."
How then does voting for inequality still pass as "sacrosanct"? I think it's un-American.
eVVVVV 3 years ago
yeah that makes me feel better,I am mormon too.:D
hootie339 3 years ago 2
Mormons should be ashamed of themselves for fighting against equal rights. The next "missionary" that knocks on my door is going to be sorry.
davidls11 3 years ago
I used to live in a mormon community in Idaho. They are some of the nicest people that I've ever met. Not just the mormons. The Christians, Military members, Latinos, Blacks, Whites, Asians, Middle eastern people. Pretty much every body helped pass prop 8. Mormons are just part on it. Leave them alone.
Tejanito 3 years ago 2
Mormon money is responsible for the law, nice try to weasel out of it, but that's why you're a bigot. You have no integrity and it hurts, doesn't it? So much for the "morals" religion teaches, eh?
kern0099 2 years ago
Wow GodHatesFAQS your argument is just good enough to convince a 5th grader to come to your side....maybe you should have tried for an argument that appealed to voting age people
slayerkamikze 3 years ago
My feelings are hurt and I am pissed. F the Mormons. I will never sit quietly on the sidelines while the Mormons passively take my rights away. F being civil. I wonder how they would respond if we took away hetero Marriage? Hmmmm. maybe we should put that to a vote!
GodHatesFAQS 3 years ago
"These folks are mindless, marching to a drum of their "leaders" and unwittingly are working to destroy the first Amendment"
Yeah, and that's not bigotry AT ALL...
You know, now that Prop8 passed I think I'm done. Fuck politics, fuck democrats, fuck republicans, fuck churches, fuck torture prisons, fuck gay rights issues, and fuck everyone who makes up their mind before they hear the whole issue. Anyone who forms an opinion before they know what the issue is all about is a fucking idiot.
AfterSchoolStudios 3 years ago
BIGOT?? You are passing judgement. What happened to the teaching of non-judgement. You are contradicting yourself.
astroguyaz 3 years ago
People should never use their vote to deny constitutional rights to others. THAT is bigotry as well.
Bigotry begets bigotry. Turn about is fair play. Ever seen a anti-gay rally? It's not cupcakes and fruit punch.
falconwind00 3 years ago
Gays are supposedly fighting for equal rights. Yet, they are protesting the fact that people exercised their right to vote (against them) and religions rights to believe what they choose. Huge contradiction on their part. The Gay community seems to only believe in free speech and rights when it mirrors their own.
obdiane 3 years ago
Fuck...I saw a protest sign..."homosexuals, you are not tolerant" WTF??????
gyqz 3 years ago
You dare to hate in the name of Jesus!!! Arn't all peple made to resamble God??? How can You hate the children of your own God??? Isn't hate spread out by the devil??? so basically...you hate other people...you wear the true skin of the devil.....mormon=666
gyqz 3 years ago
MORMONS ARE LIARS! THEY ARE A CULT!
astroguyaz 3 years ago
FUCK YOU JOSEPH SMITH!
astroguyaz 3 years ago
HEY! the mormons sacrificed polygamy to assimilate with the normal people. Cant you homos sacrifice buttsex with some stranger in a bathroom?
shmouts 3 years ago
If Christians protested against the homosexuals, then there would be hate crime charges galore.
StoogeWatcher 3 years ago 2
That ad, which ran the DAY of the election and never before, was not put out by the "No on 8" official campaign.
Marriage is guaranteed by the Constitution. It's a fundamental right under the Constitution. Same-sex marriage is a fundamental right under the CA Constitution. If it weren't, there would be no need to amend it, would there?
I don't think you can pinpoint any one reason why Prop 8 passed. Most of the votes at teh margin were probably due to voter confusion.
PrepeiNaSasPw 3 years ago
How was the "no on 8" campaign misleading? That's blatantly false.
Gays don't want limit relgious rights. If a church is targeting gays, why can't gays target that church with criticism? Should they ignore that it was these churches who spread lies about them.
PrepeiNaSasPw 3 years ago
The irony of Mormons holding signs claiming that the "God-ordained" and "traditional" form of marriage is ONE man and ONE woman is overwhelming. No, sorry. I mean RIDICULOUS.
PrepeiNaSasPw 3 years ago
The only one form of marriage - man and woman ridiculous? I won't go into details here but retake your biology class and think what relationships are ridiculous.
Argument that some people might like things differently is invalid. You might like smoking marihuana. We can still be friends and I can't prevent you from doing smoking, etc. but I won't support laws making drugs legal, because whether you like them or not - THEY ARE WRONG.
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
Maybe this is a language barrier. I didn't say that the idea itself is ridiculous. I said that it's ridiculous that Mormons are claiming that "traditional" marriage is between one man and ONE woman is ridiculous because Joseph Smith and tons of other Mormons openly practiced polygamy for years, which is why they fled to Utah. It wasn't until the US government started to target them that the Mormons decided that God changed his mind and polygamy was no longer okay.
PrepeiNaSasPw 3 years ago
As a Polish person, don't you feel a little embarrassed to advocate a religion that some alcoholic whacko invented in the United States? Don't you think it's weird that God revealed his true gospel (in grammatically poor English) to some American guy who all his life wished and hoped to have "magic powers." Well, he sure got them and used them over a bunch of crazy followers.
PrepeiNaSasPw 3 years ago
"As a Polish person, don't you feel a little embarrassed..."
I would feel embarrassed if what you wrote weren't lies just as much as I would feel embarrassed to follow some simple carpenter's son. You know what they would say about Him: "Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!"(Luke 7:34)
I am actually following the carpenter's Son and I try to follow everything He has revealed through ancient and modern prophets (yes - even those who were simple farmers).
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
Thank you LDS. Your efforts to mobilize massive amounts of money and labor to work against equal rights has galvanized our community and supporters. We haven't had a community response like this since our 1969 Stonewall riots.
On the other hand, LDS has set its public image back decades. Members resigning, recruitment among affluent tithers much more difficult. Learn how to let people live and love the way the chose and focus your resources on helping people, and not dividing them. Good luck!
SparkinSF 3 years ago
"Members resigning, recruitment among affluent tithers much more difficult."
I have never heard of recruitment... but even if so - I call it "Separating Tares from Wheat". We need it from time to time.
8O)
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
1. Say ur name 10x
2. Say ur mom's name 5x
3. Say ur crushes name 3x
4. then paste this to 4 other video's, if you do this your crush will kiss you on the nearest friday! But if you read this and did not paste this, then you will have very bad luck! btw
rexdale07 3 years ago
hahah, gay 'bigots' ... right. What exactly are they trying to do, prevent your dumb LDS magic-underwear morons from marrying or just trying to gain rights for THEMSELVES!
CaMaverick 3 years ago
The Mormon leadership urged its followers to support Prop 8 and ended up funneling $20 million into the campaign.
They were responsible for destroying families and civil rights. They used vicious lies to deceive voters. Now they are whining and complaining because the gay community in CA is angry at them.
Trust me, the Mormon leadership deserves an earful on this. If they can't take it, they should not have entered the debate to begin with. Sorry.
SPM947 3 years ago
who cares how much money was given,campainging money doesn't change the voters mind, and the voters have spoken case closed
megethealthy 3 years ago
If that's the case, why did they spend $20 million (a staggering amount) to support the prop?
And this issue is far from closed, my friend. The "voters" aren't the supreme authority when it comes to civil rights. We don't live in a mob state.
SPM947 3 years ago
Protesting at a sacred place of worship takes this issue out of context. It's like they're protesting against the Church instead of for gay marriage. Though I am a Latter-day Saint, I don't know everything gays go through but I know that they're loved by the Lord, and the reason why we support Prop 8 is because we want them to someday experience the blessings of families and eternity. Some may support prop 8 for hate but the real reason behind it is pure love.
teimatoa9april 3 years ago
You know that they are loved by the Lord and that God wants them to "experience the blessings of families"? Who died and made you God's spokesman?
To tear appart a family because YOU have a problem with their lifestyle is not based on love. It's based on arrogance and biggotry.
SPM947 3 years ago
Here's the way I see it; Mormons changing the laws so gays can't marry is like Jews changing the laws so that Mormons can't eat pork. Their standards are not our standards, our standards are not their standards, but we all must live in this world peaceably. Gods laws were established for in God's house('kingdom'). Man's government, laws are for the management of man. The US is not Gods kingdom. As long as elected officials hold power, I fear any government official who pretends to speak for God.
bitherwack 3 years ago
Yes - USA is democracy. What is democracy? People can vote and the majority wins.
That's what happened in California. You make it sound as if the Church sent the Young Single Adults to Sacramento to defeat Arnold and establish no-gay zone.
I live in a town with some Gypsy community. Stealing is part of their culture, but our standards are not their standards and in order for us to live peaceably - they had to accept some of our standards. They even started sending their kids to schools.
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
Abinidai, the Gypsies helped you understand how cooperating societies work. You don't seem happy about their interpretation of appropriate behavior, but recognize their right to an education. Good for you!
Please remember, a democracy isn't the tyranny of 'the majority rules'. It is the form of government which ensures all parties get fair representation,'Equal under the law.' Slaves (who were once considered chattel) won recognition of personhood, not by vote, but judicially. So, gay rights.
bitherwack 3 years ago
The Gypsies in our community used to refuse sending their kids to schools, but since our government started enforcing our country's values on them (no stealing, no vagrancy, etc.), they started integrating and recently they even started sending their children to schools. We welcome them in schools and do everything to help them feel comfortable.
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
Oh yes, you are so superior to the lowly Gypsies. Good thing you taught them your superior ways!
PrepeiNaSasPw 3 years ago
I understand that democracy is not rule of majority over minority, etc. but you seem to want to have minority rule over majority.
Gays and lesbians want to adopt children and send their gay missionaries to public schools to teach kids how nice it is to have to daddies (like they do here in Europe). They want to be able to use legal means to force their standards on religious organizations, etc.
People in CA said no, but you think it shouldn't count. What is your definition of democracy?
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
No amount of persuasion will befuddle a person into thinking its preferable to have two daddies rather than a dad and a mom. The idea of 'gay missionaries' is completely reactionary. The legal means will never stand up in court. Marriage has never been forced on a church. (Congregations have refused to marry non parishoners for centuries, and for us, temple recommends shut out 90% of our very own members!) It is a campaign based on fear. Gays just want government recognition of their marriage.
bitherwack 3 years ago
thats not true... catholic services did not give a baby to a gay couple and they were forced to shut down services because the were sued.... and why?? they should have had the right to say no by what you are saying... its not fear its reality!
ramonswife 3 years ago
I hope you are right (about gay people just wanting recognition of their marriage). Actually - I do believe most of them probably do, but unfortunately what has happened in Europe suggests that it might not end there.
I also believe that a homosexual's visit in school wouldn't make my son gay, etc. but the laws we make do reflect our values. Sexual perversions are devils standards that don't lead where we want our civilization to go (Sodom, Gomorrah).
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
You think being gay is a sexual perversion? I am amazed that people who hold such biggoted views still don't understand why gays are upset over what has happened.
And being from a country that has legalized marriage for same-sex couples (Canada), I can assure you that nothing substantial will change. People on both sides have come to terms with it and have realized that it's really no big deal.
SPM947 3 years ago
I have some homosexual friends and they know that their perversion doesn't effect our friendship and respect for each other. They have their problems I have mine own.
They are aware that I do accept the Bible as truth and everybody who does - whether they are politically correct or not (like myself) - they do know that homosexuality is perversion and doesn't lead to happiness but misery.
What used to be common knowledge now some call bigotry. Oh well, times change (God's word doesn't).
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
I am amazed that you have gay friends given your views toward their lifestyle. There is nothing "respectful" about it, sir.
I respect your right to your religion, though.
SPM947 3 years ago
You can't just say you have gay friends and expect us to believe you, dude. You are clearly lying.
And doesn't God's word change? Abraham was a polygamist. Is polygamy okay?
I'd also point out that they Bible does not contain the word "homosexual" or "same-sex relationship" anywhere in it. Maybe your translation does, but it's not in the original text. It's simply not.
PrepeiNaSasPw 3 years ago
"You can't just say you have gay friends and expect us to believe you, dude."
Yea - I can't prove it - you're right, but you must agree that I have a better idea who my friends are than you. Actually - you have no idea if I am lying.
But seriously - do you check if someone agrees with you on everything before you may consider to be his/her friend?
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
"I'd also point out that they Bible does not contain the word "homosexual" or "same-sex relationship" anywhere in it."
I my gosh! I couldn't even find "prop 8" anywhere! Your argument is very convincing!
I found this though:
"...their males also abandoned their natural sexual function toward females and burned with lust toward one another. Males committed indecent acts with males, and received within themselves the appropriate penalty for their perversion." (Romans 1:27)
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
The fascist thugs that are pro gay marriage show their true colors. They are hypocrites. Now everybody can see their true nature and biogotry. Gay marriage is now dead for decades. They killed it themselves. Congrats idiots.
ddgallion 3 years ago
pnp2k6- It is sad that u actually mentioned the LA Times, everyone knows how bias they are. It is unfortunate that because a group of people didnt get their way, that they took to the streets the very next day and attacked THE ONLY people that wouldnt fight back. It is not only disgusting, it is appauling. Try doing what my KIDS do...REASON with people in charge. Stop throwing fits.
shaunamom4 3 years ago
Too late, been "reasoning" for too long. What's sad is that, because a person is gay, they are told to be quiet and do what we are told. The time for passivity has passed. We DID get our way, in may 2008. in Nov 2008, our WAY was taken away, illegally. We won't stand for it. We WILL organize and radicalize, until we get treated equally. You can think it's disgusting or appauling, I don't really care. What I do care about is equal rights for all.
pnp2k6 3 years ago
Well said ScuseMeJudge. The real issue is our right to our own belief.
urb0123 3 years ago
Now for all you gays, put your toes in first in your jackboots then put your armband on your left arm. March now! Threaten, tear up the place and howl at those LDS types. Just forget the fact 70% of blacks and latinos voted YES on 8. Just don't march against them least you be shown for the bigots you truly are.
cafelattefuture 3 years ago
Nothing will ever be forced on you, and I'm sorry you have had to live with this unnecessary fear. I'm also sorry for the person who gave you that information, because they were sadly misguided. Peace. Calm. Faith. Understanding.
bitherwack 3 years ago
I dont understand why the mormon church couldn't accept peaceful coexistence. If the church hadn't participated, it would have been able to prevent these backlashes. It almost seems as if the intent was to incite the gay contingency to anger. (an intent on digging in, drawing a line in the sand, and facing off)
Blessed are the peacemakers. Live and let live.
bitherwack 3 years ago
"Blessed are the peacemakers."
I totally agree. Why don't you watch just a few anti-Prop. 8 videos and a few pro-Prop. 8 ones and honestly say which ones are the peacemakers (Mormon missionaries breaking into some lesbian's house to steal their wedding rings, etc. - not very peaceful to me).
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
Look at the wickedness of these unrepentant sinners. The votes have spoken and yet they cry foul. The Americans who didn't choose Obama aren't acting as such. You we're beat hands down none other then by blacks in 3 States. What are you going to call them Racists or some such nonsense? Maybe the Pres. Elect will give the courts the power to overturn the rule of law and really screw himself in 2012.
bs2174 3 years ago
Well Ken, I'm mormon and I hate the fact that my church didn't seem to be able to trust me to make my own informed decision, or vote my conscience. I hate that my ecclesiastical authority it telling me what I must do in my temporal life. Moreover, I hate the fact that the church ordered my great grand father into a polygamous marriage, sent him to Mexico, and then when my grandmother wanted to come to live in the US, she had to swear in court she was a bastard. Mormons must Remember persecution
bitherwack 3 years ago
"Well Ken, I'm mormon and I hate the fact that my church didn't seem to be able to trust me to make my own informed decision, or vote my conscience. I hate that my ecclesiastical authority it telling me what I must do in my temporal life."
It's probably time for you to find out what the Church is and how different it is from all other organizations in the world. I believe it's the Kingdom of God. Our King doesn't force us to do anything, but He does expect us to sustain His decisions.
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
Well Abinadi,
I trust in the Lord, and sustain his decisions. I believe in a personal God, as I was taught in Primary. I was never taught that a prophet was to stand between me and my God. In this case, I feel, (and I suspect you feel differently...) that the prophet, for the second time in my life, in telling me what to do rather than asking me to vote my conscience, has stepped in between me and my God. (the first time was with the ERA) A prophet should not be a substitute for God.
bitherwack 3 years ago
Bitherwack - You are not the first one who is willing to trust God until you feel you are smarter than him. You are not the first one who trusts He has the power to create the world but He is not powerful enough to lead His Church through priesthood. I believe that because people in the beg. of Christianity had similar attitudes - the apostasy began. Not a good idea - in my opinion.
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
What if God told you to vote against ERA and for Prop 8? You probably tell him to move a mountain or something to prove it really was him huh?
YouShouldVoteYesOn8 3 years ago
bitherwack- where do you live? Are you in California where all of this is really happening or are you in Utah?
I was told by my Bishop (as was the rest of our ward) to vote how we wanted. THis was a personal choice for everyone and if you felt you wanted to be involved, then get involved. If not, dont. Sorry your situation was different. :o(
shaunamom4 3 years ago
I'm not going to risk my ward being a target for reprisals, so I don't feel great about being specific...
I envy your ward, I'm impressed with the Bishop's maturity. I'd be lying if I didn't say its been a genuine trial of my faith. My faith in the gospel has not changed, but I'm having trouble with 'our inspired leaders' I can sustain them in all other regards but this. I feel there has been an abuse of authority, and hope I can get over it before the next temple recommend. (What will I say?!)
bitherwack 3 years ago
lol..it looks funny on here when you cant see what I wrote to you first bitherwack.
It is good to see that you are actually still wanting a temple recommend. :o) I caution you this....before being swept away with anger and bitterness, take time to breathe. Sort out all of your thoughts and then proceed to post. This is coming from someone who can be reactionary and then find out later the consequences.
The gospel of Jesus Christ is true, the PEOPLE of the church are just that. People.
shaunamom4 3 years ago 2
THE BIGOTS ARE THE LDS.
AudriannaCole 3 years ago
It's not the "No On 8" side who voted to take away civil rights from law-abiding, taxpaying Americans.
We shall overcome someday!
scheis123 3 years ago
There are a couple of major differences. Blacks on the whole didn't donate money, or volunteer. There was no concerted effort to get out the antigay black vote, and there was no organization created by the african american community to address gay marriage. There were also no blacks from other states working toward prop8's passing, and no phone banks using black membership rolls for canvassing. Southern Baptist churches did not tell their congregations that calamity would happen if prop8 failed.
bitherwack 3 years ago
"Southern Baptist churches did not tell their congregations that calamity would happen if prop8 failed."
I don't think the LDS Church said such a thing, but even if it did - what do you think that would mean?
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)
Sometimes we are expected to simply trust Him.
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
Of all the things for the church to speak out on, I'm surprised it wasn't the wholesale genocide in Iraq (Murder is the greatest sin) or the trampling of the Constitution ("an inspired document") Elder Bednar said; if Prop8 passed, it would be inviting anger and accusations of intolerance. I felt a peaceful coexistence was the best way to prevent anger. The courts recognised civil rights, then the church helped eliminate them. I can understand their hurt. Peaceful Coexistence WAS the mormon way.
bitherwack 3 years ago
Why don't you ask God to take a break, go on vacation and let you decide what issues are the most important in His Church.
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
Bitherwack, are you Mormon or not?
YouShouldVoteYesOn8 3 years ago
Yes, 8th generation (With a string of GAs in the family history) You may be surprised, but I'm our ward's HPGL. Not everyone is happy about not feeling like we had a choice, or the opportunity to 'bring it to the Lord' I know some who felt it was a widespread case of 'abuse of authority.' I'm not sure I would go that far. I think it was a mild form of 'mass hysteria' like mob mentality, where no one really spent the time to think the scenario through. How could they not have expected a backlash?
bitherwack 3 years ago
The Bible and other scriptures are full of cases where God gave his servants commandments that were difficult to keep. I am glad that when Abraham was commanded to sacrifice his son, instead of turning against the Lord and shouting about "abuse of authority", he simply went and did what he was asked (not forced) to do.
I think the question you should ask is - do you have a testimony of the Lord and his work, or not? Do you want to be like Nephi and Sam or Laman and Lemuel?
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
We all want to be like Nephi, but we also need to always be wary of being deceived. Do you remember the 'Son of Sam' murders? He thought God commanded him to kill those people.
A sweet, very devout sister in our ward said at the beginning of the Iraq war that it was an excellent thing; the Iraqis will be prevented from sinning anymore, and can go directly to their 'reward'. I thought with horror, this woman has just rationalized the wholesale murder of innocent Iraqis- with scriptural context!
bitherwack 3 years ago
I don't think that sister in your ward should have said that, but perhaps there is a reason why she hasn't been called as the president of the Church.
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
Yeah, the reason she hasn't been called as the president of the church is that she's a woman. (Sorry Abinadi, I couldn't resist...)
(She is the president of the Relief Society though...)
bitherwack 3 years ago
Really? So what you are saying is that if she wasn't a woman would be called to the presidency of the Church? I told you yesterday - with your inspiration you should for awhile lead this Church. I am sure you would do much better job than the one whose Church it is.
(By the way - if RS president tells you she prefers Chicago Bulls over Utah Jazz - you can still be saved if you cheer for Utah Jazz)
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
I agree, Abinadi, and I'll go one better; if the prophet told me to root for the Bulls and I decided to root for the Jazz, I'm not at the peril of my salvation. (My father was a GA, and that didn't mean that if I didn't make my bed when told, I was disregarding holy revelation.)
As regarding your suggestion that I lead the church, I'm not sure if you are being facetious or not. I would make a horrible leader. (I have a real problem with authority-- suffered too much authority abuse as a child)
bitherwack 3 years ago
I'm fine with the protest at the Temple, as long as they are peacefull. I actually think the publicity is good for the church. I think that the signs many of them are holding in LA have NOTHING to do with gay marriage and are more of an attack on the Church. It seems like a childish elementary school tactic, but it's their right. The backlash seems more like mob mentality to me, and the mass hysteria can be seen in many pictures and videos on youtube.
YouShouldVoteYesOn8 3 years ago
Quoting scripture does not help this unfortunate situation. We are targeting the LDS church because of the astounding amount of money they poured into this proposition. Follow the Money, and you will find the true Bigots!
pnp2k6 3 years ago
But actually, No On 8 campaign raised more money then the church did, and also, the majority of voters that ultimatlely tipped Prop. 8 to pass wasn't the Mormon Church, wasn't Catholic, Jewish, Muslim or Christian churches, no it was the African Americans. 70% voted Yes on Prop. 8, and, also voted for Obama (who might I add, is against homosexual marriage, but, like McCain, supports civil union) So why don't they protest in Compton? Or in front of predominatly African American churches?
oOKitty86Oo 3 years ago
That's simply not true. $38 million was raised to ban same sex marriage, of that $26 million came from LDS. $36 million was raised for upholding the supreme courts decision to allow same sex marriage. As far as protesting in front of African American Churches.. Don't worry, all bigots will be revealed. Just wait. If this prop doesn't get turned over in the courts, the gay radical movement will thrive. It's already taking root in Chicago, where I live.
pnp2k6 3 years ago
This was in an article entitled "Why Gay Marriage Was Defeated in California" on Yahoo news, Nov. 6, 2008
"According to an analysis of the most recent reports from the California secretary of state, the pro-equality side raised an astonishing $43.6 million, compared with just $29.8 million for those who succeeded in keeping gays from marrying."
What about hate against the church? Is that not another form of bigotry?
oOKitty86Oo 3 years ago 2
cont.
The church is a private institution, its members are able to vote as they please just like anyone else. Are we not also standing up for our beliefs as well? The difference is, we haven't resorted to violence...
oOKitty86Oo 3 years ago
Sorry Miss Kitty, your facts don't jibe with the LA Times. I don't understand why it is so hard for people to understand that if you discriminate against a group of people, that group will eventually retaliate. For you to expect us to just "shut up and accept it", is the exact reason why we are becoming radical. For too long, we have sat and waited for our equality, just as blacks did during the civil rights movement. We finally get the right to marry, and you take it away? So not cool!
pnp2k6 3 years ago
i can only answer somthing like this with a personal message. Look for it in your inbox.
Miss Kitty, thats cute = ^ - ^ =
oOKitty86Oo 3 years ago
Sounds good.. Just so long as it isn't like all the other personal messages I get, you know like "Just Die Fag", or "Get Aids". or my fav.. "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve"... LOL!
pnp2k6 3 years ago
of course not...I believe in giving respect no matter the belief.
oOKitty86Oo 3 years ago
LOL.. You Rock Miss Kitty, sort of. :)
pnp2k6 3 years ago
The money came from LDS members... not the church itself. If a dictator judge can give you "rights" they can also take it away. In court no matter what state... case law is used... so if it happened there guess what California would do. There was a Consitutional way for the. If you take government out and make it a religious ceremony like it was 100 years ago there would be no conflict... but this country has ignored the Constitution for a long time.
faanunu 3 years ago
I am not an American, but I've always heard that in the US you are innocent until you are proven guilty. My question is then - does anybody have any PROVE THAT THE LDS CHURCH "POURED" MONEY INTO PROP. 8? If not - those who criticize the Church and organize those protests are either pathetic (they are simply mad they lost) or they are like dumb, naive sheep who follow the crowd (like those who screamed "crucify him" because their leaders told them to do it).
Truly pitiful.
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
It's because the mormon church crossed the state lines. If they had left the referendum up to the people of California, it probably would have been voted down. But with all the misinformation advertized on the church's (member's) tab, it completely confused the issue. The church is lucky this democratic republic preserves the rights of the minority, or the mormon church would have been eliminated years ago. If the members could realize that, they would have been more accepting of gay rights.
bitherwack 3 years ago 3
You cant be serious? You do realize that both sides had out of state funding? But really, its okay....keep demonstrating and showing hate towards one church. It is showing the world how truly intolerant and hateful you are towards them and makes the mormon church look like the little child in the schoolyard being bullied for getting an A on the test. This is really looking bad for the no on Prop 8 campaign.
shaunamom4 3 years ago
Actually Shaunamom, I'm serious. I'm mormon, and I resented being bullied from the pulpit on how to vote. I resent being told how to campaign, and who to contact, and given a phoning script to read from.(The requests happend outside of the church building, but through church leaders in private...in an effort to skirt the impression of partiality...the sneakiness was offputting) There were excommunications for advocating NoOnProp8.
I don't hate my church, but I feel I don't recognize it anymore.
bitherwack 3 years ago
Well, I suppose the gays could have just done like the Yes on 8 people and spread lies. Like the poor old Mormon woman who called me and told me (and I'm sure she believed this awful lie) that people have been arrested for just for being against gay marriage. She didn't want to say she was Mormon, but when I asked about her faith she used words that clued me in (like "celestial") and then she admitted it. I feel bad that Mormons have been persecuted, but now they are returning the favor.
PrepeiNaSasPw 3 years ago
Why should we believe you and not that woman?
"I feel bad that Mormons have been persecuted, but now they are returning the favor."
How many homosexuals have the Mormons murdered? How many have they driven our of their homes? When did Utah's governor sign an extermination order against gay people? When did Mormon mob stoned to death gay leaders?
Mormons (and many other Christians) simply used their democratic right to vote. So - just calm down.
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago 2
You are not Christian. Stop saying you are Christian. Do you believe that Jesus is God? If not, you are not a Christian, not matter how many times you say it. Stop trying to change the traditional definition of Christian. (Irony 201 from the Mormons).
(NOTE: I don't advocate picketing the LDS Temples. I think it's counterproductive. Though, I think the grave sins of a misleading and deceitful campaign that tricked undecided voters to support 8, will rest forever on their souls.
PrepeiNaSasPw 3 years ago
"Stop saying you are Christian. Do you believe that Jesus is God? If not, you are not a Christian, not matter how many times you say it. Stop trying to change the traditional definition of Christian."
Yes, I do believe Jesus is God. I believe in EVERYTHING He has revealed. I even rejected the "traditional definition" of "Christian" and decided to accept not only those things He revealed in ancient times but also those things he reveals now. Read NT and check what it means to be Christian.
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
You are POLISH! You don't even live in this country. How can you say what has and has not happened here? You are just a brainwashed product of the Mormon campaign to spread their word throughout the world because most Americans are not buying what they are selling. So don't get your magic undies in a twist.
PrepeiNaSasPw 3 years ago
PrepeiNaSasPw: "You are just a brainwashed product of the Mormon campaign to spread their word throughout the world because most Americans are not buying what they are selling. So don't get your magic undies in a twist."
What a nice Christian comment 8O)
BIGOT: "One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ."
I checked the YouTube Com. Guidelines and it looks like I actually CAN post comments even if I am Polish. Sorry. 8O)
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago 2
Face it, cooperating has gotten gays nowhere, they are fed-up with being treated as second class citizens. You talk about gays being intolerent...they are just following the example of all the homophobes who have 'kept them in their place.'
I'm a little surprised its taken so long...
They had so much hope, and to have it all taken away would be frustrating to anyone... even the most tolerant.
bitherwack 3 years ago
The mormon church may have been part of a coalition, but the majority of the funds, and efforts were supplied by mormons, and that is a fact which is not debatable.
bitherwack 3 years ago
" the majority of the funds, and efforts were supplied by mormons, and that is a fact which is not debatable."
You probably don't know that, but I sure hope this is true. I am so proud of all the right minded people in California (LDS, Catholics and others) who helped pass Prop. 8! We should love all people but perversion should not be supported by your country's law. Your country was built on Christian values.
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
Amen Sir, I am so proud of the Church taking a stand on this issue.
myway43 3 years ago
Yes, of course, and while we're at it, lets stone all the Sabbath-breakers.
bitherwack 3 years ago
No, I don't think it is a good idea to stone anyone, but if the majority of Americans believe that Sunday should be kept holy - why not make laws that will make it impossible for employers (including store owners) to force their employees to work on Sundays.
Remember - in democracy not only minorities have rights - the majority should have rights too. The majority in California decided that marriage is between man and woman. Good for them!
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
"the majority of the funds, and efforts were supplied by mormons, and that is a fact which is not debatable."
How is it "a fact which is not debatable"? How many times you have to be lied to before something untrue becomes an undebatable fact?
Here is a fact:
"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has made no cash donations in support of Proposition 8. Individual members of the Church together with other like-minded citizens have made donations to the Proposition 8 coalition."
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
When the church resorts to arm-twisting, and authority abuse to reach that aim; when the church excommuncates someone for advocating NoOnProp8, you know that though the church has worked hard to maintain an illusion of distance, it has pressed the issue farther than a definition of a 'collection of individual's democratic vote of conscience' could be interpereted. Advocating a stance, and threatening someone with hellfire and damnation is vastly different. We mormons don't even believe in 'hell'
bitherwack 3 years ago