A reply to Arguments 2,3 & 4 of 'The Problems of Feminism'

[polutc]

You sir are one of the problems with feminism. A man that works against his own interests, WOW, to support a feminist agenda. Dr. Warren Farrell has pretty much argued succinctly against all your points. Secondly saying as a "white male" Look at what's happening in South Africa to white farmers being slaughtered for their race. Remove your white guilt; Also masculinity studies-probably taught by radical feminists. Bell-curve is dominated by men, and that's why you and I are not in physics son!

[corbyworld5]

Are those the "We never asked men the same questions" stats or the "have you ever regretted having sex?"{which equals rape} + "we didn't ask men" stats?Do U Know?

A study by a feminist, reported in The Journal of Sex Research, found that 63% of men and 46% of women had experienced unwanted intercourse. By feminist definitions of rape as unwanted sex, virtually everyone has been raped. ~Dr. Warren Farrell

If 25% of my women friends were really being raped, wouldnt I know it? ~ Katie Roiphe

[DianaBoston]

Exactly, there's no reason to whinge and complain about women getting into public areas of society like govt. and CEO's etc. Quotas are necessary to break up the patriarchal domination of this public sphere. This is common sense reasoning here. If men want DV shelters, let them build them and fund them as women have done. Feminists don't have a problem with that. However, women's DV shelters are not suddenly going to let men in. Kinda defeats the purpose eh?

[Jabes1966]

Actually meenee cat, the CDC statistics show men are 1/3 of all domestic violence victims (2.9million DV assaults on men/year versus 4.8million upon women). Additionally, the 2000 NVAWS (National Violence Against Women Survey) shows that it is estimated that annually 1.3million women are assaulted from intimates, versus 835,000 men.

It is estimated that male prison rape is close to rape of women in society per Stop Prison Rape Now.

Why? Because each male is raped dozens (if not 100's) per year

[dissapointedoptimist]

I've had girlfriends rape me numerous times. They coerced me with guilt when I was playing WOW.

[Heru666]

Feminism begins with an honorable goal, to get rid of the exaggeration done by the catholic church. Because there were a lot of form of patriarchy, the catholic one was unbalanced.

But like with all good idea, they turn bad. Because by gaining power, they attract those who like power, the corrupt one.

The feminism movement is an extension of the Marxism. And Marxist disciple are using them as useful idiot to push their agenda.

[meeneecat]

BTW, most people on this thread seem to be rape apologists & misogynists in the mirror of Glenn Sacks. I've read many comments saying that there's "more male rape victims than female" and that patriarchy (i.e. the oppression of women) "helps women". YouTube commenters are not known for their intelligence, they are certainly known for their hate, racism, misogyny & bigotry as well. [Queque all the replies to the FACTS that I posted from the FBI with hateful comments saying that they are all lies]

[Heru666]

Patriarchy is not the oppression of women. The scandinavian pre-roman invasion was a patriarchy but of the gendre were equal in term of influence, power and responsability.

Women were running the inside, the men the outside.

The leader is responsible of the outside mainly, that's why he was a male.

[meeneecat]

Well, you are right in that patriarchy doesn't just affect women. Patriarchy is the oppression of both men and women.

[Heru666]

Develop your theory, what do you know of patriarchy in the last 20 000 yrs exactly?

Funny how the university is corrupt, you don't even learn to think openly, PC is a damn disease.

[meeneecat]

You can start to see how sick people like Glenn Sacks and those who agree with him really are...that they would deny official U.S. FBI and Justice Dept. crime statistics and try to cover these crimes up. Glenn Sacks, MRAs, rape apologists reasoning is that it's "insulting to males", and thus Sacks has devoted much of his time to fighting against programs designed to help rape victims and victims of domestic violence. It's despicable. Glenn Sacks, Argus, and people like them are a rot to society.

[meeneecat]

For example see some of the comments in this thread with the false statement that most rape victims are male. Now here are some FACTS from the U.S. Department of Justice and the FBI:

-84% of spouse abuse victims are FEMALE and 91% of victims of rape are FEMALE.

-99% of rapes, 92% of physical assaults, and 97% of stalking acts were perpetrated by MEN.

MRA trolls and rape apologists, and many posters in this thread, like to deny these statistics, FACTS from the FBI and U.S. Dept of Justice.

[meeneecat]

This was a stronger video that the first one. Good points. Glenn Sacks in a right-wing Bush supporter (basically a nut-job) who has a radio show here in the U.S. One of his favorite activities is arguing on behalf of MRA trolls. Him and his followers can't stand the idea that women and organizations are fighting back against rape and DV. Sacks and his supporters use misleading statistics such as "women are just as likely to be rapists as men are" "more rape victims are male than female" (cont)

[authoress1]

I just wanted to thank you for your excellent and very thoughtful analysis of these issues. I look forward to your future videos.

[ameliasera]

From a woman's perspective, unwanted sex may be rape. But it won't necessarily be rape in law: it matters what the guy thought. Legally (in NZ anyway), a person is only guilty of rape if they knew she didn't consent(or were reckless to whether this was true/didn't care).

Thanks for pointing out that 'problems with (some) feminists' is very different from 'problems with feminism'. Feminism is diverse and so are feminists in their opinions and reasons/perspectives.

[ameliasera]

You can not want sex - but still consent to it. That is not (legally) rape. For instance, a prostitute can consent to sex with the motive of financial gain yet not actually want the sex. However for college women unwanted sex does sound a lot like the legal definition of rape (unconsented to sex).

[Jazzwoman1985]

men are afraid to give women opportunities, because then they would have to give up some of their privileges

[youloseilol]

we give women the same oprotunity as us they can go into the same schools and have the same job.

[youloseilol]

if your not forced its not raped if the women doesn't say no or try and not be raped then its not rape seriously.

[blackburn9]

you sound like a person that's fine with defending what you is wrong. Obviously you've little experience with the real world. Once you compromise with untruths whatever the seeming justification, you then support those same untruths that create victims. You're rationalizing inequality, unfairness and injustice, and implying anyone against it does so out of fear. Wrong, learn what justice means.

[KentaroDoe]

I agree with you on the unwanted sex part. If the survey said "Did you ever have sex and not like it?" instead, then THAT would be biased.

[benattis]

SURVEY, Journal of sex research 1988 vol 24

Question 1: Unwanted Sexual Activity

Women 98%

Men 94%

Question 2: Unwanted sexual intercourse

Women 46%

Men 63%

By feminist definition of rape, more men than women are raped. The reason? Most unwanted sexual activity is having sex while under influence of alcohol.

Besides you are missing the point, patriarchy crated womens options. Patriarchy created the way for women to avoid the effects of nature.

[thestudent09]

and iwentdowntotheriver also can you prove that this "patriarchy" exists? im just not seeing it

[thestudent09]

as the generation of men who have not oppressed i think that western society owes it to us to not teach our generation of wemon to hate men, to discriminate agianst men, to think of men as inferior and to put down our boys and brothers.

[thestudent09]

and wemon already have equality of opportunity. they do not require equality of outcome

[thestudent09]

iwentdowntotheriver feminist are the defacto group we look to when we want to know if something is equil or not as such we cannot alow them to use misleading statistics

[Sadochrist]

HAHA I can't wait till one day a female has sex with you then in the morning changes her mind, ROFL!!!

[cubanoafuego]

your point about rape is my thoughts exactly.

[21woman]

I subscribe with joy. What you speak out at 6:50 is so important. And because you are man and say that more people will listen to you. Thanks for beeing on youtube.

[sirskeptic]

The 1:4 study I am familiar with. Large questionaire (women only) 3 question sequence: 1. man paid for drink? 2. sex with that man? 3. Would you have boinked him if he hadn't paid?

This is a study of prostitution not rape. Yet it produces the 1:4 statistic of rape.

[huntyarra]

(1)The total sample was 6,159, or whom 3,187 were females. See Mary Koss, "Hidden Rape: Sexual Aggression and Victimization in a National Sample of Students in Higher Education," in Ann Wolbert Burgess, ed., Rape and Sexual Assault, vol. 2 (New York: Garland Publishing, 1988), p. 8.

[huntyarra]

Um.. No there were actually 10 questions and both men and women were surveyed. I think your thinking of the fact that you only had to answer in the affirmative in 3 out of the ten questions to be counted as raped. Only a small percentage of those deemed as raped answered affirmative to the question have you had sex when you didn't want to.

[huntyarra]

What is very rarely mentioned is that upon learning the survey was about rape and that they had been included in the static 73% of those that had been classified as raped wrote in to state categorically they were not raped. Also not spoken very often is the fact that 48% of those that had been "raped" were still dating their "rapist".

[jbgood3]

Thats interesting because it ties in with this from The British Crime Survey:

Less than two-thirds (60%) of female rape victims were prepared to self-classify

their experience as 'rape'.

• Less than three-quarters (70%) of women who self-classified themselves as having

been the victim of 'attempted rape' also self-classified this incident as a crime.

[huntyarra]

It should be further mentioned that the owner of the magazine that conducted the survey has been quoted as saying; ""All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman." -- Catherine MacKinnon

[sirskeptic]

Wow! Thanks for that - it was packed full of data.

But I think I'm thinking of a different survey that produced a 1:4. It was definitely women only.

I'll see if I can find that journal again.

[sirskeptic]

Wow! There is a huge difference between 'not want to' and 'agaist her will'. I'm not familiar with this particular study, but I am with the methodology. It's fuzzy and designed to produce a certain result. So any women who wasn't COMPLETELY in the mood at the beginning was raped.

[istoute]

P.S.-

I'm enjoying our conversation so far. Thanks for being willing to talk about these subjects. I think that people on both sides of the feminism divide are too quick to judge and condemn without first listening. I know I've been guilty of that in the past. :)

[iwentdowntotheriver]

Cheers, it makes a welcome difference for me from my dissertation. I appreciate your lack of ad hominems and passion.

[istoute]

I cannot believe you support quotas, iwentdowntotheriver. Here's the problem with quotas: they lead to unqualified person's getting jobs b/c of arbitrary characteristics. Yes, it is wrong to tell a company what to do with it's money (i.e., its property) to fight some crusade against "discrimination." Qualified people, who have made the necessary sacrifices and demonstrated their abilities, deserve the jobs. We shouldn't devalue their hard work with such arbitrary standards.

[iwentdowntotheriver]

I would be genuinely interested to know an alternative method of introducing the discriminated against into new areas of occupation? Quotas are not something I like to support, but they are an easier short-term solution then the complete breaking down of patriarchal social structures.

[istoute]

They are short-term solutions, yes, with long-term negative consequences. Let's look at this just from an ethical standpoint for the time being. Discrimination is wrong b/c it arbitrarily assigns merit based on arbitrary characteristics. Is it not ad hoc to say discrimination is wrong, but then turn around and say it is good when it's applied against men (or whites)? By endorsing this quota system, are we not conveying legitimacy to discrimination?

[iwentdowntotheriver]

I will have a think about it, but honestly, what is your alternative? Our current patriarchal social system assigns merit based on the arbitary characteristic of being a man. But I have not thought about it enough possibly.

[istoute]

If you want my honest opinion, after having studied psychology for the past four years and learning how we learn, discrimination and "oppression" are not the result of a cultural system. They are an inherent byproduct of our brain's organization. We learn by forming prototypes (stereotypes) and automatically form in- and out-groups. Assigning merit based on arbitrary characteristics will never go away, but we do not have to endorse it; no more than we have to endorse theft and violence.

[iwentdowntotheriver]

The relationships between culture (sociology) and the individual (psychology) are very under-explored. I did three years of psychology for my under-graduate and agree with your above view, except that you seem to make a fallacy over where culture comes from? A collection of individuals, no? But once again, a few dozen PHDs worth of arguments here.

[istoute]

I agree with you: they are under-explored. However, most feminist scholarship and rhetoric is based upon the assumption that culture's effect on the individual is paramount. No study has ever been conducted on humans to show that socialization is the cause of all variance amongst individuals. Not one. I do need you to clarify what you are saying in part of your statement. Are you implying that it's an incorrect hypothesis that biology (i.e., human nature) creates culture?

[iwentdowntotheriver]

Not at all. Of course culture is based on human biology. That was what I thought you were trying to deny, by seeming to deny oppression is a result of a cultural system. It's too convuluted an idea for me to summarise in even a dozen posts.

[istoute]

I feel that I need to elaborate on my last post. Steven Pinker wrote an excellent book called The Blank Slate. He effectively shows how academia has given too much credit to socialization. More importantly, the current data conducted shows that there is no significant link whatsoever. Individual studies might show a link, but when examined as a complete body of evidence, polemics are found wanting.

[SuperPais]

iwentdowntotheriver "Not at all. Of course culture is based on human biology."

This is not true.

And irrational, and illogical.

Of course, feminists will love that idea.

Cause they say "men (like you) are evil.

[iwentdowntotheriver]

What is culture based on then? It is a property of human interactions, humans are biological beings. What would you posit instead, god gives culture? It seems pretty evident that culture supervenes on the biological make-up of humans. Also citations for your claims, otherwise you are offering the same cheap opinions as everybody else.

[SuperPais]

iwentdowntotheriver "Also citations for your claims, otherwise you are offering the same cheap opinions as everybody else. "

Lol. How irrational.

If something I said it´s a quote, is right for you.

But if it demonstrates that I´m a free thinker, and I can think for myself it´s a cheap opinion TO YOU.

So, TO YOU, FREE-THINKERS ARE "CHEAP OPINIONS", lol.

[iwentdowntotheriver]

Please try and be logical. Free thinking is grand. We are all engaging in that. A factual claim needs to be backed up with evidence. I can state anything I want. But it is a cheap opinion unless it is backed up either emperically or logically. You have done neither.

[SuperPais]

iwentdowntotheriver :

Try to answer me. With logic and reason. You have

made a non-answer, lol.

See, I backed up my factual claim, with evidences: Your words. So, I proved what I had claim.

[istoute]

It seems to me that feminists view patriarchy as a juggernaut which can only be brought down by force (i.e., government intervention). They also have many myths about patriarchy, though I'm sure you'd be resistant to many of my arguments. But I digress. The shift in the zeitgeist which has occurred during the past century is not the result of coercion, but the result of reason and exposure.

[istoute]

Reason and exposure may be slower alternatives than coercion, but they are the only ethical options. As for and alternative possibility, free markets are more than capable of resolving these issues. Consider this: women can perform certain labor just as well, or better, as men yet be paid less. However, labor prices are driven by the laws of supply and demand. Companies wanting to capitalize on female labor have to gradually pay women more to attract skilled laborers.

[iwentdowntotheriver]

In an idealised capital system, yes that is the case. I hope you realise, however, that in both the EU and USA we have cartels and protectionism. It is like the classic case of car manufacturers' unwritten agreement never to go under a certain sale price as the short-term gain for the first to do so would damage the future revenues of all.

[iwentdowntotheriver]

I just realised I have no citation for the car example as I cannot remember where I read it, so scratch that.

[istoute]

I agree with you that the USA has only had brief periods of laissez faire, two to be exact. Protectionism and subsidies keep inefficient businesses afloat by betraying the trust and power of the government. As a result, consumers must pay more for lower quality goods and services than would be offered in a free system. If anything, these facts should hold as evidence against government intervention into private business (i.e., affirmative action or "positive" discrimination).

[SuperPais]

istoute "Consider this: women can perform certain labor just as well, or better, as men yet be paid less. However, labor prices are driven by the laws of supply and demand. "

This is a Myth. Feminist myth.

Warren Farrel, like so many others, have already destroyed this myth.

If this was true, acording to "laws of supply and demand", men were be all unemployed.

Nobody wire a man by $1000 if they can hire a woman from $770.

True: women work less hours, for example.

[iwentdowntotheriver]

True: women work less PAID hours. Do you disagree with this? Obviously if women end up doing more work then men for no pay because of the patriarchal nature of society, the free market 'evidence' doesn't make sense.

[SuperPais]

iwentdowntotheriver "because of the patriarchal nature of society, the free market 'evidence' doesn't make sense. "

WOW.

Now you are saying that there's no free-market.

But a "PATRIARCHY" MARKET.

That´s something new.

That's why all business are going down the toilet (joking).

PhD of economics, financial analytics, etc, are dumbs. Only you are a smart guy, lol.

[iwentdowntotheriver]

Do not take what I said out of context. There is a free-market of sorts. But does anyone really believe there is a proper free market anywhere in the world? Further, if the free market placed a value on house-work and other "women's work", they would be paid. It doesn't and so the free-market does not enter all areas of society. The interaction between capitalism and patriarchy is complex and not exactly original to me, try reading up on it.

[SuperPais]

iwentdowntotheriver "Do not take what I said out of context. There is a free-market "etc etc.

WHERE ´RE THE CITATIONS?

iwentdowntotheriver "Also citations for your claims, otherwise you are offering the same cheap opinions as everybody else. "

Back up your comments. Its your own rules. Apply to yourself, first.

Don´t impose to others, lol.

(first rule of democracy)

[iwentdowntotheriver]

You do not seem to understand what citations are. The claim, 'There is a free-market of sorts', is one that is followed by a question over whether you or anyone else believes there is an actual, FREE, free-market anywhere in the world. Well? If you believe there is, then I will use research to show you are wrong. I surmised that you would agree with me and so the assertion was an attempt at seeking a common point to begin a logical argument. This arguing over semantics is over for me.

[istoute]

Here, in the states, when you control for all economic factors (# of hours worked, years of experience/education, job position, location, etc.), women have been earning within 2% of what men make as far back as the 1950s. Free markets naturally create opportunities for women. We don't need coercion. Too often what feminists call oppression is really not when examined with a finner microscope.

[istoute]

I just noticed an assumption in your post that I think is important to address. You assume that our culture assigns merit based solely on being male. Does it really? How and where? I'd be interested if you could provide examples.

[iwentdowntotheriver]

Ok, there's a lot there istoute, probably a full video reply worth of stuff. The very nature of current Western Society is patriarchal. The very notions of hierarchy, 'getting ahead', the rat race, and capitalism, are all male ideas based on male values. Also, I never said 'solely' based on being a man. I will do a video on this topic.

[istoute]

"The very notions...are all male ideas based on male values."

Are these really "male" values? Do only men value these things? What makes them "male" as opposed to "female?" You're confusing me by trying to assign a gender to an abstraction. I suggest, for the time being, we put capitalism aside and talk about the other things for a moment before we continue. I think, too often, negative connotations bleed over in these discussions.

[iwentdowntotheriver]

I have posted a video on the idea that patriarchy does indeed exist. I will follow it up in a few days with a video on the idea of male and female orientated value. The notion of value I put forward will probably be quite controversial.

[ArgusEyes]

I have seen your video on patriarchy and will revel in debunking it when I have the spare time. Stay tuned ;)

[jennaow]

you should try to get ur video directly linked to Argus' as a video response. it will get more hits from people seeing the first one.

[onelilearthquake]

Also love the Mark Twain quote; what a fascinating man he was! My favorite quote from him: "Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please."

[onelilearthquake]

I support this video and its intentions 100%. I especially admire the point made on rape and force. Many children, for instance, are molested by the force of psychological manipulation and not physical violence.