...infinite regression type argument. The last and fifth argument is utterly absurd, fire is not the cause of all hot things, and the maximum value of something doesnt have to be the cause. Finally the concept of something being perfect doesnt have to be God, thats just a wild assertion. I agree that all chairs are "imperfect" and that we can in our mind create the idea of a "perfect superchair". That mental excercise does not prove God.
The first three is the same argument, infinite regression. I dont understand why christians keep ignoring that God would also need to be moved according to their own argument. Could you please provide an answer to that?
the 4th states in the premiss that its possible that there was a time where nothing existed, I agree. But then goes on to state that the premiss is clearly absurd because things exist now. Why is that absurd? The argument stops making sense but seems to be another...
why do people bash on christians or people who believe in god whether it be buddah allah or what ever it drives us to be succesful in life and gives of hope and if u dont have anything to hope and believe in then i dont know why people who dont believe in anything are even living in a world without believing in anything. so please athiests just stop being a bully and let us believers live a happy and amazing life knowing someone is always there for you because atheists noone is with you
Lol. This was pretty funny. Yeah, it contradicted itself a LOT (and the grammer/punctuation left something to be desired), but that's what MAKES it funny.
Huh well i guess it would make sense that atheists would be pissed at this video, seeing as it is beating them at their own game which is explaining things scientifically. Hahahaha sorry guys but these arguments no matter how hard you try cannot be broken, so you say that something else aside from God moved everything OK i'll listen to you but what does that make the first mover, oh right a GOD! :)) so stop your complaining and accept your lose.
I never rejected anything, so please don't try to put words in my mouth.
So, that one particular example of the 4 min. mile is suppose to demonstrate that there ARE first movers...okay, so if everything has a cause, then how come this first mover(god) doesn't need a cause?
It's very simple, if everything needs a cause EXCEPT your god, then I guess that works out lovely. Cause then the only thing that doesn't need a cause is nothing ;D
"It's very simple, if everything needs a cause EXCEPT your god, then I guess that works out lovely. Cause then the only thing that doesn't need a cause is nothing"
Each contingent thing has a time at which it fails to exist, a time at which nothing exists.
If the world is empty at one time, it would be empty forever after. So, if everything were contingent, NOTHING would exist now. But clearly, the world is not empty. So there exists a being who is not contingent...GOD.
If you realize the absolute evidence we have shows nothing but degradation of all species then I would say that you are doing better than some primitive human garbage belief that humans are evolving. Computers evolve. Humans are continually degrading. Just look around. The root average of humans are making factions, disgusting beliefs in things like countries, religions, and Evodelusionism, nationalism, power trips, politics all base low life ideas of primitive people. WTF
If you have faith in humanity to solve the problems caused by humanity, you are technically insane. In thousands of years it has never improved. Only by seeking, ONLY the TRUTH and not accepting human emotional mental garbaged can you get free. God = Truth. If you are not seeking the absolute Truth, then what are you seeking? The only other possibility is that you are only seeking to perpetuate yours and others HEMG beliefs.
i ask you sir, what have you done for humanity thus far other than pointing out the "never improving" humanity to which you (and i) belong or your continuous search to "prove" something (or to actually DISPROVE something)? what can WE actually get from being "educated" that the "truth" is according to these "proven" theories?.
freedom from ignorance?
quitting our faith?
or your personal satisfaction because you were right and we are not?
@tarajentottot I have pointed out one problem of humanity causing suffering. People have beliefs in ideas of evolution, when that is just a fairy tale ideological belief. There is no magic mutations that fix the human genome. We need to preserve and protect life, and not worship death. If we don't stop the degrading to the human genome, we will wind up degrading to the point of sticks and stones, then on to extinction. Life is precious and is not some crap that Evodelusionists promote.
The problem with most of these arguments by the way is that they nonchalantly assert that "...and this everyone understands to be God", but that's not true at all. I actually accept some of these arguments and conclude that X must exist - where X has the exact properties of what's been shown to have to exist. I don't rename it "God". It's just dishonest to try to smuggle in the word "God" because that brings with it a whole host of unsupported claims.
So, everything needs a beginning(or in this case, a mover), EXCEPT your god? How did your god come into existence? And if you say that he always existed, then you'd of just contradicted yourself in that video.
@kitwol Your idea of God is foolish and from a simple thought process that is not logical. Why don't you listen to my video Basic Science. You do not need to define God. As Einstein says; "My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind."
The more intelligent a person is, the more they realize their limitations. "Genius has its limitations, stupidity does not."
@GoodScienceForYou "The more intelligent a person is, the more they realize their limitations" Thanks for providing evidence that you are brain dead because you never talk about your limitations, only how intelligent you are, your fabled IQ of 180, your claim to have read more than 20,000 papers on the theory of evolution (yet you still do not have a clue about what it actually says), etc. You are an imbecile.
@AlanCFA How superior of you to know without a test whether someone is an imbecile or not. Perhaps you should reveal your mystic methods to the unenlightened?
@cpedley "How superior of you to know without a test whether someone is an imbecile or not. Perhaps you should reveal your mystic methods to the unenlightened? " It is a figure of speech. As to my methods, they are not mystic, but experiential; I've been battling GSFY on YouTube for 2 years.
As for the evidence I used to reach my conclusions, some of it is here:
@kitwol Take GoodScienceForYou's offer and watch his "Basic Science" video. It is hilarious. He knows things about the theory of relativity that Einstein would not have dreamed even on an acid trip!
@kitwol Everything has a cause. Do we know all the causes? Of course not. Do you know the cause of everything? So do you automatically reject anything whose cause is unknown to you? If you do, you must be a very ignorant person.
There are First Movers of many things just as there is always someone who does something which humanity thought was impossible but then in time, it WAS possible because one did it. The 4 minute mile was believed to be impossible. Roger Bannister proved otherwise.
you see, sir, Saint Thomas's point here is to argue that THERE must be a source of the beginning BEYOND everything in this world. please read, ABSORB, and REFLECT. please sir.
1. There can be no infinite chain of movers/movees. hence, there must be a first UNMOVED mover.
2. If an event happens, then it must be caused by something outside of itself. There can be no infinite cause/effect chains. thus, there must be a first UNCAUSED cause.
3. Each CONTINGENT thing has a time at which it fails to exist. So, if everything were contingent, there would be a time at which nothing exists. If the world were empty at one time, it would be empty forever after. So, if everything were contingent, nothing would exist now. well clearly, the world is NOT empty. I exist. YOU exist. thus, there exists a being who is not contingent.
4. everything has properties to a greater or lesser extent. thus, there MUST be an entity has all properties to the maximum possible degree.
and
5. (my favorite)
the concept of harmony...of design..
objects act for an end. some have minds, others do not.
these objects who act for an end but does not have a mind for itself must have been created by a being that has a mind. so there exists a being who DESIGNED all mindless entities that act for an end.
@kitwol No the idea is the Logical need for a first cause, If you ask the question of who made God come into existence you then have to ask, who made that come into existence, and then who made that come into existence, and on to infinity, there is a need for a first cause something that came into existence that keeps it self in existence, that doesn't rely on contingency. With out it you get nuthing.
@kitwol God is eternal because he lives outside the constraints of time, matter and space. Time, matter and space are the dimension of our Universe only. God was the one who created them (The Big Bang).
In 1918 at a water hole in the syrian mountains T E Lawrence heard an old arab mumbling God is Love, he wrote in his memoir (the 7 pillars of Wisdom) that this was unique from an arab as only the jews and christans held that concept of God. So the christian God is Love, although many christians aren't too aware.
@TKOblue I'll repeat, you said "the christian God is bullshit."
I said the christian/jewish concept is that God is Love.
Unfortunately you don't hear that from a lot of christians because they just don't know.
They are still stuck in the old testement concept of a punishing fire and brimstone God, a God like that isn't God. Its just an extension of their ego.
@jonesgerard: But if the Old Testament is to be considered an unreliable concept, why can't the same be said about the New Testament? What warrants a reliable concept?
@jonesgerard "It wasn't God who hardened Pharohs heart after he set the Israelites free, it was pharohs concept of a punishing God."
That's not what the bible says, but feel free to invent more stuff that makes you feel good. Not that it matters anyway, the entire story about Egypt is pretty much known to be fictional(At least to the extent anything can be known given the historical distance) as Egyptian records make no mention at all of Jews being held captive.
@jonesgerard "Do you think the egyptians would build monuments to their complete failures?" Perhaps not. But neither would they, nor could they, erase history.
@jonesgerard Can you even hear yourself? You dismiss the old testament notion of God while claiming that the Jewish God is Love? The Jewish God is *defined* by the old testament. The only sense in which the old war god of the Jews could be "Love" is that he favors the Jews and helps them slaughter everyone else.
If you have a shred of intellectual honesty, you'd acknowledge that the Christian God is derived from that demon. Jesus clearly states that the OT still applies.
@jonesgerard In NT, it is also made clear that its authors believe OT is true. How can I say this? because the genealogy of Jesus goes all the way back to Abraham. The genealogy includes patently obvious myths such as Noah(Obvious, because the flood myth is in fact a verbatim copy of Gilgamesh in many places). The consequences of this are that Christians claim that God, for some strange reason completely changed his nature from a genocidal maniac in OT to a sadisitic torturer who loves you in NT
@jonesgerard What's amazing though, is that you don't know that the "punishing fire and brimstone God" actually is an invention of the New Testament. It's Jesus who introduces hell. Not OT. While there obviously is punishments also in OT, they are all what you'd refer to as "miracles". You know, the kind of magical meddling with natural law that is never observed outside of fantasy literature. It's your God of love who burns people forever in a lake of fire for not being sorry for being human.
@jonesgerard But the most hilarious thing about your comment is this: "a God like that isn't God. Its just an extension of their ego."
It is possible that OT is false. That's one thing. Your idea of God, however, is invented wholecloth and is in wild contradiction of both NT, OT and the connections between the two. It is literally produced by your ego and it's not at all clear why you attempt to connect it with either Judaism or Christianity.
Wow, who knew the God I loved and loves me back has so much pointless hatred bouncing back and forth on videos about him. Educated discussions quickly decay into mudslingings and cussfests. As far as I'm concerned, the faithful shouldn't expect to convert the bullheaded atheist without effort of their own, and the atheist shouldn't expect to strip the faithful of their faith by trying to disprove a very beautiful thing...because it makes them feel stronger...or something.
wait... about the motion thing... why is the earth in motion? it revolves around the sun which is not in motion? its pulled in by (the opposite of centrifical force, i forget what it was, something with a p) force and thats not an actual thing?
Big bang argument is retarded because you believe everything happend by chance and it is a mere coincidence that we are here. Man is stupid stop tryying to disprove God, man has been trying forever and has failed.
@3233135151 Your education is kindergarten level. No science teaches that it all happened... by chance.... Man has NEVER tried to disprove the existence of a deity. That` is bible school propaganda. You simply can`t disprove the existence of anything. But you guys have been trying to prove a god for centuries ,without any scuccess.
@tallliza Wrong, go look at philosophers and scientists trying to disprove the Bible [which states there is a God] it is man who tries to prove the Bible wrong not the other way around. Look how America is foolish enough to try and take God out of the pledge of Allegience? In God we trust is on America's money!
@3233135151 You simply cannot disprove the existence of anything or anybody Don`t you undertstand that. To try to do that, you have to have knowledge of everything in this vast universe. Disproving the veracity, the credibility of the bible, is not the same thing as disproving god.
@tallliza Wrong, trying to disprove the Bible IS trying to disprove GOD because the Bible is God's word and where you get to know God. That's why man has been trying to disprove it forever but has failed.
@Sherlockrulez Aquinas, the man, who wrote the script.. how to deal with heretics. This man partky responsible for the Inquisition, was honored in the Cath, Church with a title.... Doctor of the Church;... Typical !!!!!!!
Yeah! Clearly God is a big man in the sky, it says so in the bible! So you're all stupid for believing in him! What we need is society based on science, like the...Nazis...well they were just crazy! Now I'm going to point out a crazy fundamentalist that in no way represents christians and generalize! Then I'm going to give a snappy quote so that people know I'm an Intellectual. For you see I'm clever, and I don't believe in God, therefore people who believe in God aren't clever. Atheism, Hurray!
@Jim1905 I'm pretty sure Hitler went to church every sunday... and that he was doing what he was doing in the name of god so that was probably the worst analogy i've ever seen. you used something that you thought would hurt me but it really just hurt your side of the arguement... and dude you know what a philosopher is right? "Lovers of wisdom"? they believe in the use of logic, and reason. THATS WHY EVERY FUCKING ONE OF THEM IS ATHEIST YOU DUMB SHIT.
Wow...Hitler and Nazi Germany were ATHEIST!! They persecuted christians and other religions. Let's just take a look at some atheist states or countries, let's see there's...Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union (esp under Stalin), North Korea, China, Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge; yeah really nice places to live. Anyways about your philosopher argument or rant, that's a pretty bold claim you make care to back it up? Oh wait Saul Kripke..did I mention I did my undergrad in philosophy?
@Jim1905 your probably the most idiotic person oive ever fucking talked to. you told me i had a bold claim yet you called everyone in atleast 4 countries all atheists. your an idiot. and you retard hitler was a christian i read 5 bigraphys on him. and wanna know who else was atheist? paul mcCartney, John lennon,
You're definitely the most idiotic person I've ever had the pleasure of conversing with on youtube. Yeah those countries official religion is Atheist you...there are no words. Hitler was not a christian, he believed in his own twisted religion, which he called positive christianity, but it had nothing to do with real christianity. Argument from authority btw is the of the worst kind. Stalin was an atheist so therefore it much be bad, yeah that makes sense.
@Jim1905 Crimes aginst humanity committed in the name of the christian god. The Inquisition, The Witchhunt, The 30 year War. The Conquistadores. The plunder and destruction of the civilizations in the Americas. The participation int the Slave Trade, The Pogroms in East and Western Europe even In Argentina. The publication of the most racist anti0semitic puclication ever( used in German propaganda to justify the Holocaust) The fabrication and use of the most cruel torture tools ever used. .
Look, you're obviously a very immature and distasteful person, but still. One should not simply follow blindly along with others and so claiming that Lennon or Darwin were atheist doesn't really matter to me. There are some atheist that I admire and because they are atheist I have given much thought and considered there reasons, but time and time again I find them flawed. Yeah sure they maybe smart people, but that doesn't mean they're right about everything.
@101796bg LULZ there is no such thing as atheism. People see God's brilliance at work [Aquinas fifth proof proves this] This universe is to ordered by design and man sees this because there is too many unknowns to man. Those so called athiest are nothing but liars, fools or both. They know a God exist they just don't want to serve him cause of there pride!!
@3233135151 haha if there is no such thing as atheism then why am i an atheist. and you call atheists fools for using logic and reason. don't say "no you don't use logic and reason you use stupidity" because 95% of hmans dealing with science are atheist, if you call 95% of scientists stupid then your fucking retarded. and liars? why the fuck would we be lying??? first of all, theres no point, and second, IT'S PEOPLE LIKE YOU THAT MAKE ATHEISTS LAUGH AT RELIGIOUS PEOPLE.
@101796bg You aren't athiest because you KNOW there is a God but what you are is liars and fools you just don't want to believe because you are too prideful. God has been made himself plain to us through his creation. There are too many unknowns and man hasn't gotten it all figured out. The fool says in his heart there is no God.
@3233135151 you didnt even mention anything i said to prove me wrong, why? because you have no evidence of anything in your dumbass religion. if ancient people, ancient people even before the mycanaens and minoans, createdd gods and godesses as a symbol, where along the lines did they become real? they couldn't of. it was dumbass people taking it the wrong away, they thought the gods were physical not mental. shit heads like you.
@3233135151 in your heads? no, i believe that jesus existed, we have evidence of that i think, but gods son? born from a virgin? we all know what you need to make a baby. unless god fucked the shit out of mary and made a magical baby, then the rest of that shit cant be true. i don't mean to offend you or anything, but really, come on, god wants to show us he loves us, so he fucks some girl that saved her abstinence for marriage, and has his son grow up to be tortured and killed. WHAT THE FUCK?
@101796bg Jesus IS God [As he was in the flesh on earth] and yes his spirit was put inside of a virgin. God sent his son to earth to save humanity form itself by sacrficing himself for our sins, for it is written. You can't believe in Jesus if you don't believe in any of that TRUTH despite whatever proofs man says out there about him.
@3233135151 their are no TRUTHS because there is no EVIDENCE. and with no EVIDENCE there is no EXISTINCE. if i told you the story of the 3 little pigs was true, and you believed me, without me telling you any evidence, and you still believed me, then you have FAITH. in what i am telling you, which is exactly what your doing with the bible. and THAT, my good friend, makes you retarded.
@101796bg Why are you talking about evidence when MAN has failed forever to disprove Gods existence? Science and philosophy has been inconsistent [always changing] but the Word of God has remained the same it has endured the tests of time and MAN has never disproven it. Yet you people still try so HARD which proves that you people know God is here but fail. Now that is retarded.
@3233135151 you idiot 95% of people dealing with science are atheist because there are NO facts or evidence about the existence of god, that means NO EXISTENCE jesus christ you are ignorant.
@3233135151 This whole salvation story makes no sense. God letting himself murdered to appeace himself for the sins committed by the creatures he created with flaws(sin) Moreover there is no ecidence for it`s credibility. One more question,what`s wrong with a non-virgin birth ? Why , if you are almighty, go through this very controversial process of a virgin birth ? Besides the first 30 years were totally useless for our salvation. Couldn`t he come down as an adult ?
@tallliza No, God coming down in the flesh as JESUS [which existed and indeed died on the cross] and dying for humanity's sins makes sense because it was to SAVE a flawed creation. Coming down in a virgin woman is God's way of doing things. If you could understand God's ways he wouldn't be GOD!
@3233135151 and tell me,, if you believe in god and your sucha great christian, and believe in hell and everything. if you've ever not worshipped god 24/7 your going to hell, if you've ever masturbated/had sex your going to hell, if you've ever gootten mad and yelled at your parents you're going to hell, if oyu've ever doughted gods existence your going to hell. wow so many rules for someone who wants free whill to everyone
@101796bg God does give humanity free will, he lets you choose to ignore and deny his existence [despite the evidence], he lets you choose to sin or obey him. God doesn't force his love upon you. It is your choice to come to him or stay unto yourselves.
Also I am a christian and yes those sins that you mentioned can bring people out of God's salvation however by grace we are saved and whenever We SIN we can repent and God will forgive us of our transgressions. God is patient with everyone!!
@3233135151 so you've never masturbates or "spilled your seed?" because if you havn't you get a disease where your balls turn purple and they explode believe it or not and you die, and for woman you get a disease where your vag starts to like leak of this gross shit and you die of it in 5 -10 weeks
@101796bg No I have done those things but I try not to do them anymore because I know the LORD Jesus Christ. I am no longer a slave to LUST. I love him enough to try and follow his commands because I got enough power through Christ that I can overcome temptation. Don't get me wrong, christians are tempted but by Jesus we overcome the temptation.
@3233135151 -- Don't get me wrong, christians are tempted but by Jesus we overcome the temptation--- How do Boudhists, Moslems, Confucianists Taoists how do they overcome temptation ? Do they invoke Jesus too ??
@3233135151 alright man, i want you to look up a video called "morality without god", by the thinking athiest, it will show you what god does to people who donnot follow him perfectly. i think we can both agree then neither one of us will be converting the other, so also, look up videos by the "cult of dusty" it will give you a better outlook on how atheists view religion. t'd be helpful for you to give me some christianity/religion videos because i cant really be a good athiest if i dont know--
@3233135151 Either you believe in free-will, or you believe in an omniscient god. You can`t have them both. Once the outcome of our actions is known beforehand, we are just puppets. If you could force another outsome as the one foreseen by god, then your god is no longer omniscient. There simply cannot be a loving, caring god, the facts on earth contradict such a notion. Unless his attributes, love, care, justice, have no human aspect.
@tallliza God IS love for the very fact that he does not force himself upon anyone. So man has a choice and as you can see bring alot of death, destruction, pollution lust ect on themselves. Don't try to blame God for man's mistakes. The reason why these things happen is because man doesn't want to follow God and does it's own thing.
@3233135151 alright dipshit, i fucking owned the shit out of you in this arguement i fucking feel bad for you cus ur gettin raped by so many people, damn u know nothing
@ronald6838 your an idiot, if you cant see touch taste smell or hear something how does it exist? and sorry for using logic and reason and thinking for ourselves instead of letting a 2,000 year old book do it for us. and we're not looking for anything but showing religious people how stupid it is to believe in a giant flying man that lives in the sky! seriously, just look around, this is reality, not a fucking fairy tale, think for yourself or dont think at all, because you just sound stupid.
@ronald6838 if you think your smart your not, im not getting into this anymore but science states there is absolutley no evidence of god wich is why 95% of scientists dealing with logic are atheist and that is a fact, i dont know why you religious people think this stuff, about some giant magical man living in the sky and grants wishes
@101796bg If you want to play that way, Science neven proves the evolution and the "big bang" ever happens either. Those theories were made up by scientists. Darwin himself said he made the theory of evolution so he would have an excuse NOT to belive in God. And Science is mostly BS anyway.
@RepublicofTim 1st part of your reply: very true. 2nd part: "science is mostly bullshit anyway" i was actually thinking about not responding just because you might be an 8 year old girl, but then i thought, i need to educate this person. so science is bullshit? you know what? your right, sceince didnt cause the landing on the moon, science didnt figure out the earth was a sphere, science didnt do anything with modern medicine like anesthisia, or figure out the mapping of the human circculatory-
@RepublicofTim system, or the x-ray, or peniccilin, or vaccines for polio and smallpox, or the typing of different blood groups, or the invention of the pace maker, or harnessing electricity, tha now powers the world around us. or the theory of relitivity, or nature of light, or and the laws of motion, the automoblie, the computer, digital music, the running shoe, DNA testing, GPS, the laaser beam, smoke detectors, sanitaary water, air travel, power tools, birth control, microwaves, -
@101796bg And all that stuff you talked about don't make life any better. They just make it easier. And do you know how much religion has helped people all over the world? Helping people in starving countries. I've been to Zambia, the people over there have NOTHING, none of the neat stuff your "huge list of scientific crap" says. But they live happily and completely content with their lives. I was amazed at how happy they were living for having nothing at all.
@RepublicofTim The one thing the people in Zambia have is God. And thats all they need. God's promise of eternal salvation and life on the new earth is enough for them to get through not having enough to eat, drink, or have a sustainable roof over their heads. If you don't want to experience how amazing that is then it's not my problem. But most of the world believe one religion or another, and anyway you spell it out, God exists and he wants a better life for me and you. If you accept or not.
@RepublicofTim bro i honsetly dont care so i read like 2 sentences of what you said, the fact is, argue with science, which, changing or not changing, is based on facts, and religion, has no facts, it doesnt matter anyway, religion is just false hope.
@101796bg Religion has lots of facts. The bible for instance, was written thousands of years ago by people influenced by the power of God. I won't force my religion upon you. Just as you will NEVER strip my faith from me with your words. So I leave you with this. Live your life as an athiest and believe nothing. Then find out in the end that God really does exist. Or prepare for him during your life while you still have it.
@RepublicofTim you retard saying for me to preapare for god or some bullshit is pushing your religion on me. and why the fuck would i believe in a giant flying magical man that lives in the sky.
@101796bg No matter what you say you will never strip my faith away from God. And I will obviously not change your opinion so I am done with this. It's obvious you've made your choice. So I won't try to change it. Goodbye.
@RepublicofTim Just a thought, I don't really wanna have a fight on the internet cuz that's just... nvm, anyway do you think that maybe when people were writing these stories they have in the bible, that they might have just made it up?
@katskania Not at all. One reason I believe the bible is true. Is that the bible doesn't pull any punches, everyone and everything in the bible is completely described. Nothing is left out from anyone in the bible. That's what I believe.
@RepublicofTim nuclear power, the electric shaver,velcro, the international space station and breast implants, what has religion done, SO MUCH MORE RIGHT? the hotel room bible! the communion wafer! praying to nobody! circumsision! himnals! church fundraisers! chirstian summer camp! the offering plate!and ofcourse, THE WHITE CHURCH BUS! but you know, nothing i said about what science invented is true, its all BS right? but what religion has done? SO MUCH CONTRIBUTION TO THE WORLD!!!!!!!!
@101796bg Human ideas like modern math and science have so many holes in them. E.G. Science states that all life originated from life. But all beliefs of the beginning of life, God creating the world, the "big bang", or some aliens seeding our planet state that life started from nothing. Math example, you throw a baseball at someone, that baseball reaches halfway, then it goes halfway through that half and so on. It should keep going forever, but it doesn't.
I also admire Lematre, Einstein, Augustine, Aquinas, Descartes, Plato, Antony Flew, Francis Collins, some university professors I've had (in theoretical physics and philosophy) and they were not Atheists (not all of them are christians but I like to consider a broad range). Truthfully I used to be agnostic until I started getting into philosophy and theoretical physics and I realized I was shackled by dogma that kept me from seriously considering God existence.
@Jim1905 ; If this god was that great, would he need to be proven in any way ? There might be a god, but there cannot be a loving, caring, compassionate, just, almighty, god. The facts on earth contradict such a notion.
Ok after more and more research I've come to the conclusion from a rather insightful website containing neither the bias of either christianity nor atheism, it is purely about history. Hitler used christianity as method or tool to rise to power, but after he had risen, christianity was pretty much discarded; we were both wrong he was neither a christian nor an atheist.
@Jim1905 alright im going to stop this arguement because im getting tired of wanting to fight back with you, but since i hate to lose arguements i want you to look up a guy on youtube, his name is, "cultofdusty" he is the most brilliant atheist probably on youtube and he will convert you, im not gunna lie.,
@Jim1905 Crimes committed in the name of the Christian god; The Crusades, The Inquisition, The witch-hunt. The 30 year war. The conquistadores. The destruction and plunder of native cultures in the Americas and elsewhere. The progroms against the Jews. The worst racist anti-semitic publication ever written by Martin Luther. The worst torture tools ever invented and used, were used by christians. Shall we continue ?
@Jim1905 Would you mind going back to school . Hitler in 1933 ordered all Darwin`s books burned. In 1934 he claimed I quote'.... we have not only persecuted, but destroyed godless atheism in Germany....
ATHEISTS: LISTEN TO THIS! do you hear this smart stuff?! stuff actually moves therefor there is a god! its not the wind! its not water or any other element that moves without something else moving! it can't be! not when the giant magical man in the sky is here!
@101796bg Then what puts god in motion? As stated something cannot be in motion without something else putting it in motion my question is what puts god in motion?
@DRUMMERBOY1629 god doesnt exist dumbass... call me an idiot but who doesnt beleive in the magical giant man living in the sky? now, i understand you find comfort in beleiving that something or someone is helping you out up there, but trying to spread it on youtube is fucking bullshit. christianity, is terrosrism. "Hey if you dont beleive in god then your going to hell!" tell me thats not terrorism.
@101796bg I didn't say that I believed in god I was questioning one of your latter comments that suggested that you believe in god. I believe in a greater being, not the concepts of god the way christianity portrays god makes him sound like a psychopath not god,christianity's god is not a just god its a man made god
if Scientists can play God then, as religious ppl say, then God Must be a Scientist
not some sky Daddy, and that Q? about Wood and fire, u can rub your hands together, and your hands will get Hotter, as u dont like Science, then u would Hate Gods Science
Romans 1: 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made
Four common sense reasons why I think there is no god; A) Total absence from the natural world. No sign of a god, before, during or after, natural disastres B) The absolute absence of favoritism towards believers. Even chruches need lightning-rods to protect them from god. C) The absence of any reaction, when crimes are committed in his name. D) The suffering of the innocent. One could accept that the guilty must suffer, but children ???
@SHIBBYiPANDA So, I conclude, that he realy doesn`t care if we believe or not.--- God could , but he doesn`t... My aunt could have had balls, and she would have been my uncle. He supposedly went through so much trouble for our slavation 2.000 years ago and since then, not a single sign of his presence. I don` blame him. His first appearance was a desastre..
@tallliza Lol, yep.. bronze age palistine was the best place to make one appearance in 2000 years... Mine I would be more inclined to believe if he'd only done more shit back then... Like heal everyone in the world and raise everyone from their graves for 5 days... Enough shit to get into the history books of every corner of the earth... That would have been shit loads better... Or just send me an angel or something... geez... ya, if saul got an angel I don't get why dawkins doesn't get one...
Psalm 19:1-4 "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth their words to the ends of the world."
Isaiah 64:4
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate"
I enjoy watching videos that use scientific method to attempt to prove God's existence - a self-denial that is in play by using accepted methods to preach to the "nonbelievers", who don't want to be preached to. I thought belief in God required faith, not reason.
@TvMoviesNmore Generally, if somebody came to me and told me that they were unsure of their faith, then I would tell them that maybe it is because it is not their faith. If you are unsure of the religion you know, no matter what it is, then I would advise shedding it and finding your own way. To not know the answers is to be human. It is a path and a land you must walk and chart yourself; not let a priest or imam simply give you the map.
i agree,i was simply stating why some ppl watch these video.
and some ppl who have no religion,this might get them intersted in this one.
Personally I think ur right,look into everything,because u never know which one religion is ur belief. Of course there always that there is no religion and to u (in general) there's not a god. and that's fine.
its only when u push ur faith unto others.
Its okay to say something,but if u keep pushing u push ppl away,not towards.
@TvMoviesNmore Don't get me wrong, my reply wasn't meant as a counterargument, but as an "additional" to my original post. I didn't actually say I was an atheist though: my perception of what God is simply differs from the norm (the connections between human souls, rather than the ultra-dimensional deity).
You're absolutely right when you say faith should not be pushed upon a person. And, as an extension to your third paragraph/point, even if you believe in "UDD God", you don't have to subscribe to an organised religion. Be your own.
While I do belive in God, I would never push my belief unto another person.
I might tell them of my faith,answer questions (if they have any), or invite them to chruch (which at the moment is my own personal bible study,since i have not found one in my city yet). Or if it went the other way, I don't believe in that, I'd leave it alone. I have friends that are atheists,wiccans, no religion at all, and some who have their own veiw.
which is essentially what you said, you don't have to subscribe to an orginized religion,be your own. So, I guess we agree. I guess I'm a lil different then some of the christians, I say what i believe and if u dont want a part of it, leave it alone.
Common man`s reasons why god does not exist A) total absence from from natural events, No sign of a god before, during or after natural events. B)The total absence of favoritism towards believers. Even church steeples need lightning rods for protection against god.C) The absence of any reaction, when crimes are committed in his name. D) The suffering of the innocent. E) Why have humans more problems birthing, than animals ? Aren`t we his masterpiece ?
God created polio, science cured it. God created small pox, science cured it. God created leprosy, science cured it. God created 2.million different illnesses, science has found cures for many. God created infertility, science invented IN-VITRO and an estimated 15 million new lives. God`s life averaged 45 years, science extended it to 75. 100.000 innocent children died in Haiti suffocating beneath the rubble. This ALLMIGHTY god, didn`t lift a finger to help.Praise be to god !!
Aquinas is the shit
Upchucka 10 months ago
...infinite regression type argument. The last and fifth argument is utterly absurd, fire is not the cause of all hot things, and the maximum value of something doesnt have to be the cause. Finally the concept of something being perfect doesnt have to be God, thats just a wild assertion. I agree that all chairs are "imperfect" and that we can in our mind create the idea of a "perfect superchair". That mental excercise does not prove God.
matszz 10 months ago 2
The first three is the same argument, infinite regression. I dont understand why christians keep ignoring that God would also need to be moved according to their own argument. Could you please provide an answer to that?
the 4th states in the premiss that its possible that there was a time where nothing existed, I agree. But then goes on to state that the premiss is clearly absurd because things exist now. Why is that absurd? The argument stops making sense but seems to be another...
matszz 10 months ago 2
why do people bash on christians or people who believe in god whether it be buddah allah or what ever it drives us to be succesful in life and gives of hope and if u dont have anything to hope and believe in then i dont know why people who dont believe in anything are even living in a world without believing in anything. so please athiests just stop being a bully and let us believers live a happy and amazing life knowing someone is always there for you because atheists noone is with you
1rs1TIBET1boi1 10 months ago
"For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not believe, no explanation is possible."
tarajentottot 10 months ago
Lol. This was pretty funny. Yeah, it contradicted itself a LOT (and the grammer/punctuation left something to be desired), but that's what MAKES it funny.
And the music was nice.
Windrunner007 10 months ago
Huh well i guess it would make sense that atheists would be pissed at this video, seeing as it is beating them at their own game which is explaining things scientifically. Hahahaha sorry guys but these arguments no matter how hard you try cannot be broken, so you say that something else aside from God moved everything OK i'll listen to you but what does that make the first mover, oh right a GOD! :)) so stop your complaining and accept your lose.
alpha0090 10 months ago
My Responses:
1]Something other than God could have hit the earth and other planets to make them move.
2]Something other than God could have given the first efficient cause.
3]This means God can't live forever, either. And, refer to number 2.
4]Refer to number 2.
5]...Seriously? Sigh, everyone is not stupid. We simply get older and wiser. No one is above us pulling our strings.
Vessoland 11 months ago
@cpedley
Try actually reading what I wrote =D
I never rejected anything, so please don't try to put words in my mouth.
So, that one particular example of the 4 min. mile is suppose to demonstrate that there ARE first movers...okay, so if everything has a cause, then how come this first mover(god) doesn't need a cause?
It's very simple, if everything needs a cause EXCEPT your god, then I guess that works out lovely. Cause then the only thing that doesn't need a cause is nothing ;D
kitwol 11 months ago
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@kitwol
"It's very simple, if everything needs a cause EXCEPT your god, then I guess that works out lovely. Cause then the only thing that doesn't need a cause is nothing"
Each contingent thing has a time at which it fails to exist, a time at which nothing exists.
If the world is empty at one time, it would be empty forever after. So, if everything were contingent, NOTHING would exist now. But clearly, the world is not empty. So there exists a being who is not contingent...GOD.
tarajentottot 10 months ago
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If you realize the absolute evidence we have shows nothing but degradation of all species then I would say that you are doing better than some primitive human garbage belief that humans are evolving. Computers evolve. Humans are continually degrading. Just look around. The root average of humans are making factions, disgusting beliefs in things like countries, religions, and Evodelusionism, nationalism, power trips, politics all base low life ideas of primitive people. WTF
GoodScienceForYou 11 months ago
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If you have faith in humanity to solve the problems caused by humanity, you are technically insane. In thousands of years it has never improved. Only by seeking, ONLY the TRUTH and not accepting human emotional mental garbaged can you get free. God = Truth. If you are not seeking the absolute Truth, then what are you seeking? The only other possibility is that you are only seeking to perpetuate yours and others HEMG beliefs.
GoodScienceForYou 11 months ago
@GoodScienceForYou
i ask you sir, what have you done for humanity thus far other than pointing out the "never improving" humanity to which you (and i) belong or your continuous search to "prove" something (or to actually DISPROVE something)? what can WE actually get from being "educated" that the "truth" is according to these "proven" theories?.
freedom from ignorance?
quitting our faith?
or your personal satisfaction because you were right and we are not?
tarajentottot 10 months ago
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@tarajentottot I have pointed out one problem of humanity causing suffering. People have beliefs in ideas of evolution, when that is just a fairy tale ideological belief. There is no magic mutations that fix the human genome. We need to preserve and protect life, and not worship death. If we don't stop the degrading to the human genome, we will wind up degrading to the point of sticks and stones, then on to extinction. Life is precious and is not some crap that Evodelusionists promote.
GoodScienceForYou 10 months ago
The problem with most of these arguments by the way is that they nonchalantly assert that "...and this everyone understands to be God", but that's not true at all. I actually accept some of these arguments and conclude that X must exist - where X has the exact properties of what's been shown to have to exist. I don't rename it "God". It's just dishonest to try to smuggle in the word "God" because that brings with it a whole host of unsupported claims.
Gnomefro 11 months ago
This entire video is a special pleading case.
So, everything needs a beginning(or in this case, a mover), EXCEPT your god? How did your god come into existence? And if you say that he always existed, then you'd of just contradicted yourself in that video.
kitwol 11 months ago 10
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@kitwol Your idea of God is foolish and from a simple thought process that is not logical. Why don't you listen to my video Basic Science. You do not need to define God. As Einstein says; "My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind."
The more intelligent a person is, the more they realize their limitations. "Genius has its limitations, stupidity does not."
GoodScienceForYou 11 months ago
@GoodScienceForYou "The more intelligent a person is, the more they realize their limitations" Thanks for providing evidence that you are brain dead because you never talk about your limitations, only how intelligent you are, your fabled IQ of 180, your claim to have read more than 20,000 papers on the theory of evolution (yet you still do not have a clue about what it actually says), etc. You are an imbecile.
AlanCFA 11 months ago 12
@AlanCFA How superior of you to know without a test whether someone is an imbecile or not. Perhaps you should reveal your mystic methods to the unenlightened?
cpedley 11 months ago
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@cpedley "How superior of you to know without a test whether someone is an imbecile or not. Perhaps you should reveal your mystic methods to the unenlightened? " It is a figure of speech. As to my methods, they are not mystic, but experiential; I've been battling GSFY on YouTube for 2 years.
As for the evidence I used to reach my conclusions, some of it is here:
/watch?v=6jTpiom836U
AlanCFA 11 months ago
@kitwol Take GoodScienceForYou's offer and watch his "Basic Science" video. It is hilarious. He knows things about the theory of relativity that Einstein would not have dreamed even on an acid trip!
AlanCFA 11 months ago 3
@kitwol Everything has a cause. Do we know all the causes? Of course not. Do you know the cause of everything? So do you automatically reject anything whose cause is unknown to you? If you do, you must be a very ignorant person.
There are First Movers of many things just as there is always someone who does something which humanity thought was impossible but then in time, it WAS possible because one did it. The 4 minute mile was believed to be impossible. Roger Bannister proved otherwise.
cpedley 11 months ago
@kitwol i say dark hippie magic
Xwannagod 10 months ago
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@kitwol
you see, sir, Saint Thomas's point here is to argue that THERE must be a source of the beginning BEYOND everything in this world. please read, ABSORB, and REFLECT. please sir.
1. There can be no infinite chain of movers/movees. hence, there must be a first UNMOVED mover.
2. If an event happens, then it must be caused by something outside of itself. There can be no infinite cause/effect chains. thus, there must be a first UNCAUSED cause.
tarajentottot 10 months ago
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@kitwol
3. Each CONTINGENT thing has a time at which it fails to exist. So, if everything were contingent, there would be a time at which nothing exists. If the world were empty at one time, it would be empty forever after. So, if everything were contingent, nothing would exist now. well clearly, the world is NOT empty. I exist. YOU exist. thus, there exists a being who is not contingent.
tarajentottot 10 months ago
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@kitwol
4. everything has properties to a greater or lesser extent. thus, there MUST be an entity has all properties to the maximum possible degree.
and
5. (my favorite)
the concept of harmony...of design..
objects act for an end. some have minds, others do not.
these objects who act for an end but does not have a mind for itself must have been created by a being that has a mind. so there exists a being who DESIGNED all mindless entities that act for an end.
tarajentottot 10 months ago
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@kitwol
the UNMOVED MOVER
the UNCAUSED CAUSE
the being who is NOT CONTINGENT
that entity who has the property to the MAXIMUM POSSIBLE DEGREE
the MIND who designed ALL MINDLESS OBJECTS TO ACT FOR AN END
is GOD, the perfect being. for something to be PERFECT, EXISTENCE is necessary.
tarajentottot 10 months ago
@kitwol No the idea is the Logical need for a first cause, If you ask the question of who made God come into existence you then have to ask, who made that come into existence, and then who made that come into existence, and on to infinity, there is a need for a first cause something that came into existence that keeps it self in existence, that doesn't rely on contingency. With out it you get nuthing.
BloodSweatTiers 10 months ago
@kitwol actually, each and every single point made contradicts each and every single other point made, and quite possily that point itself
neonblast 10 months ago
@kitwol God is eternal because he lives outside the constraints of time, matter and space. Time, matter and space are the dimension of our Universe only. God was the one who created them (The Big Bang).
lotr450 10 months ago
@kitwol not really, because God is not limited to the laws of physics as we are. God is not his creation.
GTosca10 10 months ago
Nobody is saying that there definitely isn't a God.
We're just saying the Christian God is bullshit. Which he is.
TKOblue 11 months ago
@TKOblue
In 1918 at a water hole in the syrian mountains T E Lawrence heard an old arab mumbling God is Love, he wrote in his memoir (the 7 pillars of Wisdom) that this was unique from an arab as only the jews and christans held that concept of God. So the christian God is Love, although many christians aren't too aware.
(T E Lawrence was Lawrence of Arabia).
jonesgerard 11 months ago
@jonesgerard: I don't see any reason for you to say that to me, but okay, then.
Did you know that there's a man whose limbs look like roots of a tree? Does that mean Ents and forest nymphs exist?
TKOblue 11 months ago
@TKOblue Well you said the christian God is bullshit.
Many christians concept of God might be.
jonesgerard 11 months ago
@jonesgerard: I still don't see your point, either because I'm a complete idiot or because you're not elaborating enough.
TKOblue 11 months ago
@TKOblue I'll repeat, you said "the christian God is bullshit."
I said the christian/jewish concept is that God is Love.
Unfortunately you don't hear that from a lot of christians because they just don't know.
They are still stuck in the old testement concept of a punishing fire and brimstone God, a God like that isn't God. Its just an extension of their ego.
jonesgerard 11 months ago
@jonesgerard: But if the Old Testament is to be considered an unreliable concept, why can't the same be said about the New Testament? What warrants a reliable concept?
TKOblue 11 months ago
@TKOblue
One makes sense, the other doesn't.
It wasn't God who hardened Pharohs heart after he set the Israelites free,
it was pharohs concept of a punishing God.
jonesgerard 11 months ago
@jonesgerard "It wasn't God who hardened Pharohs heart after he set the Israelites free, it was pharohs concept of a punishing God."
That's not what the bible says, but feel free to invent more stuff that makes you feel good. Not that it matters anyway, the entire story about Egypt is pretty much known to be fictional(At least to the extent anything can be known given the historical distance) as Egyptian records make no mention at all of Jews being held captive.
Gnomefro 11 months ago
@Gnomefro Do you think the egyptians would build monuments to their complete failures?
Atheists tend to be the same as fundamentalists in their insisting everyone understand the bible in a rigid manner, metaphor eludes a rigid mind.
jonesgerard 11 months ago
@jonesgerard "Do you think the egyptians would build monuments to their complete failures?" Perhaps not. But neither would they, nor could they, erase history.
AlanCFA 11 months ago
@AlanCFA Take a look at current history of Japan and WW2 today, barely a mention in the history books.
Add 4000 yrs .
jonesgerard 11 months ago
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@jonesgerard "Take a look at current history of Japan and WW2 today, barely a mention in the history books."
What? Japan was involved in WW2? I never heard of such a thing.
AlanCFA 11 months ago
@jonesgerard Can you even hear yourself? You dismiss the old testament notion of God while claiming that the Jewish God is Love? The Jewish God is *defined* by the old testament. The only sense in which the old war god of the Jews could be "Love" is that he favors the Jews and helps them slaughter everyone else.
If you have a shred of intellectual honesty, you'd acknowledge that the Christian God is derived from that demon. Jesus clearly states that the OT still applies.
Gnomefro 11 months ago
@Gnomefro The jewish tradition is to question what it means, not to accept word for word.
That tradition continues today.
If you want to cling to the OT be my guest, I wouldn't believe in your God.
jonesgerard 11 months ago
@jonesgerard In NT, it is also made clear that its authors believe OT is true. How can I say this? because the genealogy of Jesus goes all the way back to Abraham. The genealogy includes patently obvious myths such as Noah(Obvious, because the flood myth is in fact a verbatim copy of Gilgamesh in many places). The consequences of this are that Christians claim that God, for some strange reason completely changed his nature from a genocidal maniac in OT to a sadisitic torturer who loves you in NT
Gnomefro 11 months ago
@jonesgerard What's amazing though, is that you don't know that the "punishing fire and brimstone God" actually is an invention of the New Testament. It's Jesus who introduces hell. Not OT. While there obviously is punishments also in OT, they are all what you'd refer to as "miracles". You know, the kind of magical meddling with natural law that is never observed outside of fantasy literature. It's your God of love who burns people forever in a lake of fire for not being sorry for being human.
Gnomefro 11 months ago
@Gnomefro " It's your God of love who burns people forever in a lake of fire for not being sorry for being human."
We are not punished for our sins, we are punished by our sins.
If you haven't lived in a lake of fire, you have a bit more living to do.
jonesgerard 11 months ago
@jonesgerard But the most hilarious thing about your comment is this: "a God like that isn't God. Its just an extension of their ego."
It is possible that OT is false. That's one thing. Your idea of God, however, is invented wholecloth and is in wild contradiction of both NT, OT and the connections between the two. It is literally produced by your ego and it's not at all clear why you attempt to connect it with either Judaism or Christianity.
Gnomefro 11 months ago
First cause argument is always so much fun to dispute.
tinylittlegnat2 1 year ago
this is pretty rich. specially 'republic of tim's comments, i had a good laugh.
crazyhiho 1 year ago
These arguments have been thoroughly refuted thousands of times over...
crazychimp321 1 year ago
I have a challenge to all Atheist. Only Atheist.
How many Christians does it take to replace a light bulb?
nctrls2 1 year ago
@nctrls2
0
god does it for them
johnroiberts 1 year ago
@nctrls2 It takes zero Christians, God is supposed to be a Jew. :P
kern0099 11 months ago
LOL
nctrls2 1 year ago
Wow, who knew the God I loved and loves me back has so much pointless hatred bouncing back and forth on videos about him. Educated discussions quickly decay into mudslingings and cussfests. As far as I'm concerned, the faithful shouldn't expect to convert the bullheaded atheist without effort of their own, and the atheist shouldn't expect to strip the faithful of their faith by trying to disprove a very beautiful thing...because it makes them feel stronger...or something.
galagaman 1 year ago
wait... about the motion thing... why is the earth in motion? it revolves around the sun which is not in motion? its pulled in by (the opposite of centrifical force, i forget what it was, something with a p) force and thats not an actual thing?
WillTubeForFood 1 year ago
Big bang argument is retarded because you believe everything happend by chance and it is a mere coincidence that we are here. Man is stupid stop tryying to disprove God, man has been trying forever and has failed.
God is here! Get ready
3233135151 1 year ago
@3233135151 Your education is kindergarten level. No science teaches that it all happened... by chance.... Man has NEVER tried to disprove the existence of a deity. That` is bible school propaganda. You simply can`t disprove the existence of anything. But you guys have been trying to prove a god for centuries ,without any scuccess.
tallliza 1 year ago
@tallliza Wrong, go look at philosophers and scientists trying to disprove the Bible [which states there is a God] it is man who tries to prove the Bible wrong not the other way around. Look how America is foolish enough to try and take God out of the pledge of Allegience? In God we trust is on America's money!
3233135151 1 year ago
@3233135151 You simply cannot disprove the existence of anything or anybody Don`t you undertstand that. To try to do that, you have to have knowledge of everything in this vast universe. Disproving the veracity, the credibility of the bible, is not the same thing as disproving god.
tallliza 1 year ago
@tallliza Wrong, trying to disprove the Bible IS trying to disprove GOD because the Bible is God's word and where you get to know God. That's why man has been trying to disprove it forever but has failed.
3233135151 1 year ago
@3233135151 How do you know the bible is God's word ?
perrin6 1 year ago
@3233135151 Silly bible school propaganda. Good luck kid.
tallliza 1 year ago
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DataJackOne go to fucking hell you son of a bitch.
ginny1461999 1 year ago
this proves nothing
druminanddriven 1 year ago
Aquinas was an idiot.
Sherlockrulez 1 year ago
@Sherlockrulez Aquinas, the man, who wrote the script.. how to deal with heretics. This man partky responsible for the Inquisition, was honored in the Cath, Church with a title.... Doctor of the Church;... Typical !!!!!!!
tallliza 1 year ago
Yeah! Clearly God is a big man in the sky, it says so in the bible! So you're all stupid for believing in him! What we need is society based on science, like the...Nazis...well they were just crazy! Now I'm going to point out a crazy fundamentalist that in no way represents christians and generalize! Then I'm going to give a snappy quote so that people know I'm an Intellectual. For you see I'm clever, and I don't believe in God, therefore people who believe in God aren't clever. Atheism, Hurray!
Jim1905 1 year ago
@Jim1905 charles darwin and richard hawking were both atheists. they are both genius's. give me one philosopher that isnt an athiest.
101796bg 1 year ago
@Jim1905 I'm pretty sure Hitler went to church every sunday... and that he was doing what he was doing in the name of god so that was probably the worst analogy i've ever seen. you used something that you thought would hurt me but it really just hurt your side of the arguement... and dude you know what a philosopher is right? "Lovers of wisdom"? they believe in the use of logic, and reason. THATS WHY EVERY FUCKING ONE OF THEM IS ATHEIST YOU DUMB SHIT.
101796bg 1 year ago
@101796bg
Wow...Hitler and Nazi Germany were ATHEIST!! They persecuted christians and other religions. Let's just take a look at some atheist states or countries, let's see there's...Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union (esp under Stalin), North Korea, China, Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge; yeah really nice places to live. Anyways about your philosopher argument or rant, that's a pretty bold claim you make care to back it up? Oh wait Saul Kripke..did I mention I did my undergrad in philosophy?
Jim1905 1 year ago
@Jim1905 your probably the most idiotic person oive ever fucking talked to. you told me i had a bold claim yet you called everyone in atleast 4 countries all atheists. your an idiot. and you retard hitler was a christian i read 5 bigraphys on him. and wanna know who else was atheist? paul mcCartney, John lennon,
101796bg 1 year ago
@101796bg
You're definitely the most idiotic person I've ever had the pleasure of conversing with on youtube. Yeah those countries official religion is Atheist you...there are no words. Hitler was not a christian, he believed in his own twisted religion, which he called positive christianity, but it had nothing to do with real christianity. Argument from authority btw is the of the worst kind. Stalin was an atheist so therefore it much be bad, yeah that makes sense.
Jim1905 1 year ago
@Jim1905 Crimes aginst humanity committed in the name of the christian god. The Inquisition, The Witchhunt, The 30 year War. The Conquistadores. The plunder and destruction of the civilizations in the Americas. The participation int the Slave Trade, The Pogroms in East and Western Europe even In Argentina. The publication of the most racist anti0semitic puclication ever( used in German propaganda to justify the Holocaust) The fabrication and use of the most cruel torture tools ever used. .
tallliza 1 year ago
@101796bg
Look, you're obviously a very immature and distasteful person, but still. One should not simply follow blindly along with others and so claiming that Lennon or Darwin were atheist doesn't really matter to me. There are some atheist that I admire and because they are atheist I have given much thought and considered there reasons, but time and time again I find them flawed. Yeah sure they maybe smart people, but that doesn't mean they're right about everything.
Jim1905 1 year ago
@Jim1905 how is atheism flawed, its based on logic and reason.
101796bg 1 year ago
@101796bg LULZ there is no such thing as atheism. People see God's brilliance at work [Aquinas fifth proof proves this] This universe is to ordered by design and man sees this because there is too many unknowns to man. Those so called athiest are nothing but liars, fools or both. They know a God exist they just don't want to serve him cause of there pride!!
3233135151 1 year ago
@3233135151 haha if there is no such thing as atheism then why am i an atheist. and you call atheists fools for using logic and reason. don't say "no you don't use logic and reason you use stupidity" because 95% of hmans dealing with science are atheist, if you call 95% of scientists stupid then your fucking retarded. and liars? why the fuck would we be lying??? first of all, theres no point, and second, IT'S PEOPLE LIKE YOU THAT MAKE ATHEISTS LAUGH AT RELIGIOUS PEOPLE.
101796bg 1 year ago
@101796bg You aren't athiest because you KNOW there is a God but what you are is liars and fools you just don't want to believe because you are too prideful. God has been made himself plain to us through his creation. There are too many unknowns and man hasn't gotten it all figured out. The fool says in his heart there is no God.
3233135151 1 year ago
@3233135151 you didnt even mention anything i said to prove me wrong, why? because you have no evidence of anything in your dumbass religion. if ancient people, ancient people even before the mycanaens and minoans, createdd gods and godesses as a symbol, where along the lines did they become real? they couldn't of. it was dumbass people taking it the wrong away, they thought the gods were physical not mental. shit heads like you.
101796bg 1 year ago
@101796bg i mentioned what you said. concerning scientists [man]. read it again.
3233135151 1 year ago
@3233135151 yeah i found it but comment on what i said back i want to know what you think about it
101796bg 1 year ago
@101796bg So what are you saying in that paragraph. That God; Jesus Christ is all in our heads and not real?
3233135151 1 year ago
@3233135151 in your heads? no, i believe that jesus existed, we have evidence of that i think, but gods son? born from a virgin? we all know what you need to make a baby. unless god fucked the shit out of mary and made a magical baby, then the rest of that shit cant be true. i don't mean to offend you or anything, but really, come on, god wants to show us he loves us, so he fucks some girl that saved her abstinence for marriage, and has his son grow up to be tortured and killed. WHAT THE FUCK?
101796bg 1 year ago
@101796bg Jesus IS God [As he was in the flesh on earth] and yes his spirit was put inside of a virgin. God sent his son to earth to save humanity form itself by sacrficing himself for our sins, for it is written. You can't believe in Jesus if you don't believe in any of that TRUTH despite whatever proofs man says out there about him.
3233135151 1 year ago
@3233135151 their are no TRUTHS because there is no EVIDENCE. and with no EVIDENCE there is no EXISTINCE. if i told you the story of the 3 little pigs was true, and you believed me, without me telling you any evidence, and you still believed me, then you have FAITH. in what i am telling you, which is exactly what your doing with the bible. and THAT, my good friend, makes you retarded.
101796bg 1 year ago
@101796bg Why are you talking about evidence when MAN has failed forever to disprove Gods existence? Science and philosophy has been inconsistent [always changing] but the Word of God has remained the same it has endured the tests of time and MAN has never disproven it. Yet you people still try so HARD which proves that you people know God is here but fail. Now that is retarded.
3233135151 1 year ago
@3233135151 you idiot 95% of people dealing with science are atheist because there are NO facts or evidence about the existence of god, that means NO EXISTENCE jesus christ you are ignorant.
101796bg 1 year ago
@3233135151 so you have done it, therefor your going to hell, ahahahaha christian liar
101796bg 1 year ago
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@101796bg Didn't I say that by Grace we are saved? If you repent and turn from your errors before knowing God you won't go to hell.
3233135151 1 year ago
@3233135151 This whole salvation story makes no sense. God letting himself murdered to appeace himself for the sins committed by the creatures he created with flaws(sin) Moreover there is no ecidence for it`s credibility. One more question,what`s wrong with a non-virgin birth ? Why , if you are almighty, go through this very controversial process of a virgin birth ? Besides the first 30 years were totally useless for our salvation. Couldn`t he come down as an adult ?
tallliza 1 year ago
@tallliza No, God coming down in the flesh as JESUS [which existed and indeed died on the cross] and dying for humanity's sins makes sense because it was to SAVE a flawed creation. Coming down in a virgin woman is God's way of doing things. If you could understand God's ways he wouldn't be GOD!
3233135151 1 year ago
@3233135151 and tell me,, if you believe in god and your sucha great christian, and believe in hell and everything. if you've ever not worshipped god 24/7 your going to hell, if you've ever masturbated/had sex your going to hell, if you've ever gootten mad and yelled at your parents you're going to hell, if oyu've ever doughted gods existence your going to hell. wow so many rules for someone who wants free whill to everyone
101796bg 1 year ago
@101796bg God does give humanity free will, he lets you choose to ignore and deny his existence [despite the evidence], he lets you choose to sin or obey him. God doesn't force his love upon you. It is your choice to come to him or stay unto yourselves.
Also I am a christian and yes those sins that you mentioned can bring people out of God's salvation however by grace we are saved and whenever We SIN we can repent and God will forgive us of our transgressions. God is patient with everyone!!
3233135151 1 year ago
@3233135151 so you've never masturbates or "spilled your seed?" because if you havn't you get a disease where your balls turn purple and they explode believe it or not and you die, and for woman you get a disease where your vag starts to like leak of this gross shit and you die of it in 5 -10 weeks
101796bg 1 year ago
@101796bg No I have done those things but I try not to do them anymore because I know the LORD Jesus Christ. I am no longer a slave to LUST. I love him enough to try and follow his commands because I got enough power through Christ that I can overcome temptation. Don't get me wrong, christians are tempted but by Jesus we overcome the temptation.
3233135151 1 year ago
@3233135151 -- Don't get me wrong, christians are tempted but by Jesus we overcome the temptation--- How do Boudhists, Moslems, Confucianists Taoists how do they overcome temptation ? Do they invoke Jesus too ??
tallliza 1 year ago
@tallliza No human is without sin we all fall short but only God can grant grace and forgiveness for salvation. There so called idols can not.
3233135151 1 year ago
@3233135151 alright man, i want you to look up a video called "morality without god", by the thinking athiest, it will show you what god does to people who donnot follow him perfectly. i think we can both agree then neither one of us will be converting the other, so also, look up videos by the "cult of dusty" it will give you a better outlook on how atheists view religion. t'd be helpful for you to give me some christianity/religion videos because i cant really be a good athiest if i dont know--
101796bg 1 year ago
@101796bg I'm not interested in the thinking of mere men..No thanks.
3233135151 1 year ago
@3233135151 "I'm not interested in the thinking of mere men..No thanks."
You are a sick human being. Do me a favor and stay out of the voting booth and just pray for political and social change. Disgusting.
Dracanic 1 year ago
@3233135151 anything about christianity
101796bg 1 year ago
@3233135151 Either you believe in free-will, or you believe in an omniscient god. You can`t have them both. Once the outcome of our actions is known beforehand, we are just puppets. If you could force another outsome as the one foreseen by god, then your god is no longer omniscient. There simply cannot be a loving, caring god, the facts on earth contradict such a notion. Unless his attributes, love, care, justice, have no human aspect.
tallliza 1 year ago
@tallliza God IS love for the very fact that he does not force himself upon anyone. So man has a choice and as you can see bring alot of death, destruction, pollution lust ect on themselves. Don't try to blame God for man's mistakes. The reason why these things happen is because man doesn't want to follow God and does it's own thing.
3233135151 1 year ago
@3233135151 How a complex being actually BE love, which is just an emotion. It's like saying an orange is hate ?
perrin6 1 year ago
@3233135151 alright dipshit, i fucking owned the shit out of you in this arguement i fucking feel bad for you cus ur gettin raped by so many people, damn u know nothing
101796bg 1 year ago
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ronald6838 1 year ago
@ronald6838 your an idiot, if you cant see touch taste smell or hear something how does it exist? and sorry for using logic and reason and thinking for ourselves instead of letting a 2,000 year old book do it for us. and we're not looking for anything but showing religious people how stupid it is to believe in a giant flying man that lives in the sky! seriously, just look around, this is reality, not a fucking fairy tale, think for yourself or dont think at all, because you just sound stupid.
101796bg 1 year ago
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ronald6838 1 year ago
@ronald6838 if you think your smart your not, im not getting into this anymore but science states there is absolutley no evidence of god wich is why 95% of scientists dealing with logic are atheist and that is a fact, i dont know why you religious people think this stuff, about some giant magical man living in the sky and grants wishes
101796bg 1 year ago
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ronald6838 1 year ago
@ronald6838 haha well played , well played
101796bg 1 year ago
@101796bg If you want to play that way, Science neven proves the evolution and the "big bang" ever happens either. Those theories were made up by scientists. Darwin himself said he made the theory of evolution so he would have an excuse NOT to belive in God. And Science is mostly BS anyway.
RepublicofTim 1 year ago
@RepublicofTim 1st part of your reply: very true. 2nd part: "science is mostly bullshit anyway" i was actually thinking about not responding just because you might be an 8 year old girl, but then i thought, i need to educate this person. so science is bullshit? you know what? your right, sceince didnt cause the landing on the moon, science didnt figure out the earth was a sphere, science didnt do anything with modern medicine like anesthisia, or figure out the mapping of the human circculatory-
101796bg 1 year ago
@RepublicofTim system, or the x-ray, or peniccilin, or vaccines for polio and smallpox, or the typing of different blood groups, or the invention of the pace maker, or harnessing electricity, tha now powers the world around us. or the theory of relitivity, or nature of light, or and the laws of motion, the automoblie, the computer, digital music, the running shoe, DNA testing, GPS, the laaser beam, smoke detectors, sanitaary water, air travel, power tools, birth control, microwaves, -
101796bg 1 year ago
@101796bg And all that stuff you talked about don't make life any better. They just make it easier. And do you know how much religion has helped people all over the world? Helping people in starving countries. I've been to Zambia, the people over there have NOTHING, none of the neat stuff your "huge list of scientific crap" says. But they live happily and completely content with their lives. I was amazed at how happy they were living for having nothing at all.
RepublicofTim 1 year ago
@RepublicofTim The one thing the people in Zambia have is God. And thats all they need. God's promise of eternal salvation and life on the new earth is enough for them to get through not having enough to eat, drink, or have a sustainable roof over their heads. If you don't want to experience how amazing that is then it's not my problem. But most of the world believe one religion or another, and anyway you spell it out, God exists and he wants a better life for me and you. If you accept or not.
RepublicofTim 1 year ago
@RepublicofTim bro i honsetly dont care so i read like 2 sentences of what you said, the fact is, argue with science, which, changing or not changing, is based on facts, and religion, has no facts, it doesnt matter anyway, religion is just false hope.
101796bg 1 year ago
@101796bg Religion has lots of facts. The bible for instance, was written thousands of years ago by people influenced by the power of God. I won't force my religion upon you. Just as you will NEVER strip my faith from me with your words. So I leave you with this. Live your life as an athiest and believe nothing. Then find out in the end that God really does exist. Or prepare for him during your life while you still have it.
RepublicofTim 1 year ago
@RepublicofTim you retard saying for me to preapare for god or some bullshit is pushing your religion on me. and why the fuck would i believe in a giant flying magical man that lives in the sky.
101796bg 1 year ago
@101796bg No matter what you say you will never strip my faith away from God. And I will obviously not change your opinion so I am done with this. It's obvious you've made your choice. So I won't try to change it. Goodbye.
RepublicofTim 1 year ago
@RepublicofTim GO AWAY
101796bg 1 year ago
@RepublicofTim Just a thought, I don't really wanna have a fight on the internet cuz that's just... nvm, anyway do you think that maybe when people were writing these stories they have in the bible, that they might have just made it up?
katskania 1 year ago
@katskania Not at all. One reason I believe the bible is true. Is that the bible doesn't pull any punches, everyone and everything in the bible is completely described. Nothing is left out from anyone in the bible. That's what I believe.
RepublicofTim 1 year ago
@RepublicofTim Oh no! Did you just use circular reasoning? I think you did... :P
shadywolf91 1 year ago
@RepublicofTim Do you believe in the moral teachings of the bible?
nctrls2 1 year ago
@RepublicofTim I respect your belief :)
katskania 11 months ago
@RepublicofTim nuclear power, the electric shaver,velcro, the international space station and breast implants, what has religion done, SO MUCH MORE RIGHT? the hotel room bible! the communion wafer! praying to nobody! circumsision! himnals! church fundraisers! chirstian summer camp! the offering plate!and ofcourse, THE WHITE CHURCH BUS! but you know, nothing i said about what science invented is true, its all BS right? but what religion has done? SO MUCH CONTRIBUTION TO THE WORLD!!!!!!!!
101796bg 1 year ago
@101796bg Human ideas like modern math and science have so many holes in them. E.G. Science states that all life originated from life. But all beliefs of the beginning of life, God creating the world, the "big bang", or some aliens seeding our planet state that life started from nothing. Math example, you throw a baseball at someone, that baseball reaches halfway, then it goes halfway through that half and so on. It should keep going forever, but it doesn't.
RepublicofTim 1 year ago
@101796bg
I also admire Lematre, Einstein, Augustine, Aquinas, Descartes, Plato, Antony Flew, Francis Collins, some university professors I've had (in theoretical physics and philosophy) and they were not Atheists (not all of them are christians but I like to consider a broad range). Truthfully I used to be agnostic until I started getting into philosophy and theoretical physics and I realized I was shackled by dogma that kept me from seriously considering God existence.
Jim1905 1 year ago
@Jim1905 ; If this god was that great, would he need to be proven in any way ? There might be a god, but there cannot be a loving, caring, compassionate, just, almighty, god. The facts on earth contradict such a notion.
tallliza 1 year ago
@101796bg
Ok after more and more research I've come to the conclusion from a rather insightful website containing neither the bias of either christianity nor atheism, it is purely about history. Hitler used christianity as method or tool to rise to power, but after he had risen, christianity was pretty much discarded; we were both wrong he was neither a christian nor an atheist.
Jim1905 1 year ago
@Jim1905 alright im going to stop this arguement because im getting tired of wanting to fight back with you, but since i hate to lose arguements i want you to look up a guy on youtube, his name is, "cultofdusty" he is the most brilliant atheist probably on youtube and he will convert you, im not gunna lie.,
101796bg 1 year ago
@Jim1905 Crimes committed in the name of the Christian god; The Crusades, The Inquisition, The witch-hunt. The 30 year war. The conquistadores. The destruction and plunder of native cultures in the Americas and elsewhere. The progroms against the Jews. The worst racist anti-semitic publication ever written by Martin Luther. The worst torture tools ever invented and used, were used by christians. Shall we continue ?
tallliza 1 year ago
@Jim1905 Would you mind going back to school . Hitler in 1933 ordered all Darwin`s books burned. In 1934 he claimed I quote'.... we have not only persecuted, but destroyed godless atheism in Germany....
tallliza 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Dear atheists:
1.) The wave-function of the universe is self-collapsing. (true by definition)
2.) Self-collapsing wave-functions are minds. (Roger Penrose's quantum mind model -Orch-OR)
Conclusion: watch?v=Kj8UdHuP5l8
Well what do you know about that! ;)
JohananRaatz 1 year ago
ATHEISTS: LISTEN TO THIS! do you hear this smart stuff?! stuff actually moves therefor there is a god! its not the wind! its not water or any other element that moves without something else moving! it can't be! not when the giant magical man in the sky is here!
101796bg 1 year ago
@101796bg Then what puts god in motion? As stated something cannot be in motion without something else putting it in motion my question is what puts god in motion?
DRUMMERBOY1629 1 year ago
@DRUMMERBOY1629 god doesnt exist dumbass... call me an idiot but who doesnt beleive in the magical giant man living in the sky? now, i understand you find comfort in beleiving that something or someone is helping you out up there, but trying to spread it on youtube is fucking bullshit. christianity, is terrosrism. "Hey if you dont beleive in god then your going to hell!" tell me thats not terrorism.
101796bg 1 year ago
@101796bg I didn't say that I believed in god I was questioning one of your latter comments that suggested that you believe in god. I believe in a greater being, not the concepts of god the way christianity portrays god makes him sound like a psychopath not god,christianity's god is not a just god its a man made god
DRUMMERBOY1629 1 year ago
@101796bg Oh, and I didn't catch the sarcasim at the end of your comment.
DRUMMERBOY1629 1 year ago
or i guess I'd ask, who put God into motion??
SHIBBYiPANDA 1 year ago
what if the universe(or multiverse itself) is in a state of actuality... What if the universe itself is eternal?? duh????
SHIBBYiPANDA 1 year ago
That is actually 0 reasons...
xkingcutx 1 year ago
if Scientists can play God then, as religious ppl say, then God Must be a Scientist
not some sky Daddy, and that Q? about Wood and fire, u can rub your hands together, and your hands will get Hotter, as u dont like Science, then u would Hate Gods Science
realitygameworld2 1 year ago
lol! Silly Mythers, Trix are for Kids ... ;-)
msqared80 1 year ago
Romans 1: 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made
1RalstonW 1 year ago
@1RalstonW BULLSHIT 1:20
tallliza 1 year ago
Four common sense reasons why I think there is no god; A) Total absence from the natural world. No sign of a god, before, during or after, natural disastres B) The absolute absence of favoritism towards believers. Even chruches need lightning-rods to protect them from god. C) The absence of any reaction, when crimes are committed in his name. D) The suffering of the innocent. One could accept that the guilty must suffer, but children ???
tallliza 1 year ago
@tallliza God would have written his name with islands if he really cared whether or not we believe in him
SHIBBYiPANDA 1 year ago
@SHIBBYiPANDA So, I conclude, that he realy doesn`t care if we believe or not.--- God could , but he doesn`t... My aunt could have had balls, and she would have been my uncle. He supposedly went through so much trouble for our slavation 2.000 years ago and since then, not a single sign of his presence. I don` blame him. His first appearance was a desastre..
tallliza 1 year ago
@tallliza Lol, yep.. bronze age palistine was the best place to make one appearance in 2000 years... Mine I would be more inclined to believe if he'd only done more shit back then... Like heal everyone in the world and raise everyone from their graves for 5 days... Enough shit to get into the history books of every corner of the earth... That would have been shit loads better... Or just send me an angel or something... geez... ya, if saul got an angel I don't get why dawkins doesn't get one...
SHIBBYiPANDA 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Psalm 19:1-4 "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth their words to the ends of the world."
Isaiah 64:4
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate"
1RalstonW 1 year ago
alot of your arguments are based on one thing that has been forgotten. time.
ilikeeverything69 1 year ago
I enjoy watching videos that use scientific method to attempt to prove God's existence - a self-denial that is in play by using accepted methods to preach to the "nonbelievers", who don't want to be preached to. I thought belief in God required faith, not reason.
steady2eddie 1 year ago
@steady2eddie
it does,but there are people who want answers,wether there unsure or sure of their faith,this answers some questions that they may have.
TvMoviesNmore 1 year ago
@TvMoviesNmore Generally, if somebody came to me and told me that they were unsure of their faith, then I would tell them that maybe it is because it is not their faith. If you are unsure of the religion you know, no matter what it is, then I would advise shedding it and finding your own way. To not know the answers is to be human. It is a path and a land you must walk and chart yourself; not let a priest or imam simply give you the map.
steady2eddie 1 year ago
@steady2eddie
i agree,i was simply stating why some ppl watch these video.
and some ppl who have no religion,this might get them intersted in this one.
Personally I think ur right,look into everything,because u never know which one religion is ur belief. Of course there always that there is no religion and to u (in general) there's not a god. and that's fine.
its only when u push ur faith unto others.
Its okay to say something,but if u keep pushing u push ppl away,not towards.
TvMoviesNmore 1 year ago
@TvMoviesNmore Don't get me wrong, my reply wasn't meant as a counterargument, but as an "additional" to my original post. I didn't actually say I was an atheist though: my perception of what God is simply differs from the norm (the connections between human souls, rather than the ultra-dimensional deity).
steady2eddie 1 year ago
You're absolutely right when you say faith should not be pushed upon a person. And, as an extension to your third paragraph/point, even if you believe in "UDD God", you don't have to subscribe to an organised religion. Be your own.
steady2eddie 1 year ago
@steady2eddie
this is very true.
While I do belive in God, I would never push my belief unto another person.
I might tell them of my faith,answer questions (if they have any), or invite them to chruch (which at the moment is my own personal bible study,since i have not found one in my city yet). Or if it went the other way, I don't believe in that, I'd leave it alone. I have friends that are atheists,wiccans, no religion at all, and some who have their own veiw.
TvMoviesNmore 1 year ago
which is essentially what you said, you don't have to subscribe to an orginized religion,be your own. So, I guess we agree. I guess I'm a lil different then some of the christians, I say what i believe and if u dont want a part of it, leave it alone.
TvMoviesNmore 1 year ago
Common man`s reasons why god does not exist A) total absence from from natural events, No sign of a god before, during or after natural events. B)The total absence of favoritism towards believers. Even church steeples need lightning rods for protection against god.C) The absence of any reaction, when crimes are committed in his name. D) The suffering of the innocent. E) Why have humans more problems birthing, than animals ? Aren`t we his masterpiece ?
lizazoon 1 year ago
god is a mental exercise that you change whenever you hear something might contradict him
theeichris 1 year ago
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God created polio, science cured it. God created small pox, science cured it. God created leprosy, science cured it. God created 2.million different illnesses, science has found cures for many. God created infertility, science invented IN-VITRO and an estimated 15 million new lives. God`s life averaged 45 years, science extended it to 75. 100.000 innocent children died in Haiti suffocating beneath the rubble. This ALLMIGHTY god, didn`t lift a finger to help.Praise be to god !!
lizazoon 1 year ago