a Further Response to Sola Fide-responding to Moses Flores 3

[Transmission85]

ha ha i love your ringer

[prchdaword]

"Moses, you DID say that. You said that almost VERBATIM. You said that all you needed was faith and not even the need to LOVE GOD in order to be justified! Are you denying you said this? Do you want me to find the exact TIME and the VIDEO where you say this? " - William Albrecht

[prchdaword]

"we only need faith and we don't have to love God" I'm sorry William but that is a GROSS MISREPRESENTATION OF MY BELIEFS AND YOU KNOW IT. I have never made that assertion. If you see my perseverance video you will see that I believe a Christian is a person who has been born again, has a new nature that loves God and consequently seeks to obey him.

Show me the quote where I said the words that you summed up my position with William. You will not find them because you are lying. =/

[gnrhead]

Moses, you DID say that. You said that almost VERBATIM. You said that all you needed was faith and not even the need to LOVE GOD in order to be justified! Are you denying you said this? Do you want me to find the exact TIME and the VIDEO where you say this?

[prchdaword]

yes please show me where I said "we only need faith and don't have to love God" exact video and time.

[prchdaword]

Did you ever find that quote where I said, "we only need faith and we don't have to love God"?

[CatholicBiologist]

Faith alone means simply that...only faith is needed. Would this not imply that love of God is not necessary, but that only faith is necessary?

[prchdaword]

yet again, display of Catholic ignorance of the doctrine.Faith is needed for what? What kind of faith? Faith alone is the means for JUSTIFICATION, which is but ONE PART of salvation. The doctrine is ONLY in regards to JUSTIFICATION, not living out the entire Christian life. Now,what KIND OF FAITH saves? The one that is alive; the one that works by love. Saving faith is not simply cognitive ascent to something, it is wholeheartedly leaning and trusting in Jesus Christ to be one's savior from sin.

[CatholicBiologist]

I don't think so, because what you are believing is not really faith alone.

Maybe it shouldn't be called Faith alone, but faith with love in regards to justification.

Because really, faith alone means what it says. Only faith...am I right?

I guess it was just a poor choice to call that belief faith alone.

Also, I think demanding an apology shows a lot of pride.

I think both of you get very close to attacking eachother, and are not debating as Christ would

[prchdaword]

Again, "faith alone" for what? For JUSTIFICATION, not salvation en toto. Justification is ONE PART of salvation (which includes election, predestination, calling, regeneration, faith, repentance, justification, adoption, sanctification, persevarance and finally glorification). Faith alone is what brings about JUSTIFICATION, but it is not Faith alone that brings our sanctification and perseverance. We help in that by partaking of the means of grace, including doing our good works.

[prchdaword]

But those good works do not increase our justification before God. Rather, they are proof of our justification and are the result of salvation having taken place in the believer and proof that the continual process of being saved from sin will indeed continue.

This is what William misunderstood when I said "we are JUSTIFIED BY FAITH ALONE, but not by a Faith that is alone". True saving faith NECESSARILY is accompanied by true repentance, which can only come from a heart that loves God.

[prchdaword]

As I mentioned in my video responses to William, one chief problem why Protestants and Catholics talk past each other, as William has completely demonstrated in these videos, is that Protestant distinguish between Justification and Sanctification; the latter as a continual cooperative work between God and man and the latter as an act of God alone as Judge pronouncing the righteous standing of the sinner before Him. They don't have to believe that, but at least understand it to understand us.

[prchdaword]

Now, the fact is that William here made a false claim about what it is that I believe and have said. Stated plainly, he lied. He has yet to provide the quote that he said he could BECAUSE HE CAN'T!!! I have never said what I have said nor do I believe that to be true. That is the real issue here and why I keep asking for the quote. Frankly, I think William owes me an apology...and my opening statement

[CatholicBiologist]

I don't think so, because what you are believing is not really faith alone.

Maybe it shouldn't be called Faith alone, but faith with love in regards to justification.

Because really, faith alone means what it says. Only faith...am I right?

I guess it was just a poor choice to call that belief faith alone.

[prchdaword]

ever find the quote?

[prchdaword]

no quote?

[prchdaword]

Still waiting on that quote....and the opening statement...or will that quote suffer the same fate as the opening statement?

[prchdaword]

quote?

[prchdaword]

YOOOO!!! You find that quote yet?

[prchdaword]

quote?

[prchdaword]

YO!!! You find that quote yet?  Or the opening statement?

[gnrhead]

You're kidding me. I thought You were going to do the opening statement as a video and we'd respond that way. Guess you were just "saying" that. The quote is listed on Video 2

[prchdaword]

actually...yes, I was being sarcastic when I said that....my video 2 or yours? Did you happen to find the time on that?

[prchdaword]

ummmm...I just searched my video 2 and the quote "you can be saved without loving God" or anything to that extent is not present. Maybe you can provide the time like you said you would

[prchdaword]

LOL like reading the text in another version is gonna make it better. CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT. Chapter 12 on gifts. Leads to the discussion on the motive of the gifts (love) which leads to the proper use of gifts in the Church (chap 14). CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT.

[gnrhead]

ahhaha thought you'd like that one ;-)

Also context IS important which is why I exegete that Chapter in Corinthians. And another Moses, you need to refer to MORE than just verse 12, you need to deal with the chapter in it's totality, it deals with the TOTALITY of love, NOT just the MOTIVE of gifts it is in fact dealing with the TOTALITY of love that is the plain reading of the text, THAT you must refute.

[prchdaword]

I know chapter 13 deals with love but chapter thirteen is right after chapter 12 and right before chapter 14 which deal with the operation of the gifts. What is the greatest gift? love. no doubt. Not prophecy. Not speaking in tongues. not faith (which is a gift from God, a la Calvinism!). I'm not denying the text. But it must be seen in its CONTEXT. And what is Paul arguing here? That all the gifts without love are useless...Totally agree. "Faith working by love" (Gal. 5:6). Totally agree.

[gnrhead]

Faith which is a gift from GOD is A LA CALVINISM? I'm sorry buddy but way before Calvin invented his religious system the BIBLE set forth that fact! The context was set down, you need to refute it..it's not ALL ABOUT gifts. I already posited that it deals with the TOTALITY of love, you stated SPIRITUAL gifts and if you want to say LOVE is a spiritual gift in it's totality, fine but that doesn't change that FAITH is never alone and this chapter deals with love in it's all encompassing nature!