Educated Catholics

[GenghisKhan44]

I read that article. The bishop's beef with educated Catholics today is that while they're educating themselves (which is good), they're not balancing their education with a Catholic worldview. Just because something IS that way does not mean it necessarily SHOULD be. Education teaches us what IS, while one's religious or philosophical disposition teaches us what SHOULD be. And the students are confusing the two. Just because we ARE more liberal today doesn't mean we SHOULD be liberal.

[canals22]

I took the liberty of posting this video on my facebook wall. I hope is ok .

[VicTheVicar]

great video and thanks for the article! also remember that no catholic institution were not allowed to mention that the sun had dark spots even into the 19th century.

[SlckJwdBtnk]

Read it.

The reason O'Donoghue is upset make perfect sense. Duh! People with intelligence prob won't take his word as total truth. Would any cult leader be in charge of a bunch of people if they actually thought for themselves?

Maybe he should try an get a law passed that set aside a part of the populous to be frontal lobotomized so the Catholic Church can keep stealing from the public. Shit, if this racket stops working, they will have to actually help the poor for real!!!!

Holy SHIT!!!

[JRBendixen]

As an old Danish saying goes in a modernized version:

In every town there is a pyromaniac(priest) and a fireman(teacher).

5 stars and keep up the awesome videos.

[alphacause]

(continued form previous post) As George Smith, the author of Atheism: The Case Against God so aptly said: Christianity has nothing to offer a happy man living in a natural, intelligible universe.

[tenneral]

Excellent comments with all of which I agree.

[alphacause]

(continued from previous post) Another reason for the Churchs waning popularity is that prosperity makes people rely less on religion, whether it is the Catholic Church or another religious institution. The global economy, which arose because of the fall of Communism (something that ironically the Church strived towards) lead to a greater spread of wealth to more people who were previously economically disadvantaged. People, therefore, no longer despaired, and don't need religion (continued).

[alphacause]

Great video. Dissemination of knowledge is corrosive to Catholicism and all religions. Speaking as an ex-Catholic, I think the availability of contrary views is only part the reason for the Churchs decline. One other culprit is that the Church is so preoccupied with sacraments and rituals, in an age where people are more concerned about less abstract things. People want to be moved intellectually/emotionally something that sacraments and tradition will not do (continued).

[charlesfloyb]

Nice topic. Kind of hits home for me, since I was raised Catholic. I went to church everyday, received most of the sacraments, and was in a Catholic school that used corporal punishment for 7 years. Then went on to Catholic high school. But curiously, quit going to church soon after even though I was an alter boy for several years, and declared "No religious preference" on my dog tags in basic training. Great video, great article, glad DPRJones suggested your channel.

[PFWoody488]

That religion has declined since they lost their stranglehold on the education system should come as no surprise to anyone.

Ask any corporate marketer. If you want to establish brand loyalty, you've got to get them while they are young and gullible.

[Generic1987]

I think that the bishop may be referencing the fact that many people passed through the university system do not have the intelligence to truly understand what they have quasi- "learned." You do not need to look far on a modern university campus to find students that would not have been admitted, much less graduated, about 50-100 years ago.

[tenneral]

I'm sorry to say that you may very well be right.The undergraduates I dealt with lately have often been very weak, even on their chosen major subjects.

[juanisaac]

Funny this guy equates Catholicism to ignorance, never mind that the RCC started the modern university system- University of Paris 11th cent. The Catholic Church kept alive the learning of the Romans and the Greeks- Monasticism anyone? Funny how the Renaissance started in Italy!!! A catholic country. I studied history for 7 years at the University level. I am Catholic because of my education. My brother has an Edd, my uncle a Phd in Physics- all Catholics. Explain that one.

[tenneral]

An interesting comment. I remain convinced that the scholars of the Renaissance were all anxious to break free from the confined outlook of scholastic theology and to get in touch with the free speculations of pagan philosophy and independent thought. In England we have a history in which Catholic thought was for a long time delayed well behind scientific and liberal attitudes which now form our society.

[handyted101]

It can also be speculated that the church establised these universities as a sort of arms race as such with the rival religion in the middle east. 11th century is the time of the crusades and Universities serve the primary function of developing technology first and educating second.

[BayerLexan]

Galileo Galilie.

[juanisaac]

Communism/Atheism: You think too much.

[BayerLexan]

"Communism/Atheism: You think too much."

Sadly, people like you think too little.

[juanisaac]

I have to explain this to you. Communists did not believe in God and they made science their point of reference for everything. Science was then the official religion. If you did not think the way they wanted- off to a Gulag. The Cubans and Russians I have met are very educated, but unfortunately very poor. Ever heard of the Jesuits- they are some of the most educated people on Earth. My brother has an Edd, my Uncle a Phd inPhysics, my other Uncle an MD- these men do not think too little.

[tenneral]

Good comment. The Jesuits were always exceptionally brilliant: the Catholic chaplain at the school at which I taught is a Jesuit, reading for his doctorate in Astro-Physics at Oxford (Campion Hall). Others in the clergy are not quite so adventurous in intellectual pursuits.

[rogermoore27]

the strange thing is that there are some very important things that Catholics learned and preserved but were resistant to use fully. Even alot of what they were skiiled at were in complete contradiction of what the Church created as dogma. All throughout their history, they have tormented people who dared to think for themselves and have never properly apologised for all their wicked atrocities.

[johhny3rubs]

nice video and article. cheers

[ajr5086]

It's interesting to see how the Church responds to the matter. What I got from the article was the format to "Scare us straight", aimed at people who would jump to conclusions that a Church isn't need. The problem is that it not aimed at the people who already have study or are studying in field that could create a feel of "God-less-ness".

I'm Catholic, myself, and I like to think that I have a level of logic in things. As such, I'm also a Buddhist. We can't live in a life without acceptance

[Chriskg1989]

Wow.

Seems funny that education hasn't "sickened" any of the other well educated religions, or Protestants.

In fact some surveys suggest that well educated people tend to become Jedi :)

[RockyBalboa211]

.. lol and God's apparitions occur to those who are not that educated, because their faith is so strong, Since thats really all they know. you would see that at fatima and lourdes lol.

[RockyBalboa211]

...well.. because catholic mass education is not done properly... most of it is done by inept volunteers, while it should be done through theologians only.

[xflorencia]

so we have more access to education than USA, because there the university is private. So you have to read or study before you talk.

[xflorencia]

you are really ignorant. i am from argentina (south america) and you dont know that here the education is PUBLIC, theres a lot of people studing at the university.we have more access for education the poor people too, the first universitys in argentina (1500) were building fot jesuits missions, they promove that.and yes, we are catholics. so the extremist opinion of someone is not the opinion of all the church.

[seth3po]

FUCK RELIGION!

Religion is the worst thing man invented, and you talk about education! poor guy so ignorant!

[homerthompsonman]

When I was 9, I was sitting in wooden catholic pew looking up at jesus nailed to a cross. I thot: If he and god are the same how does he pray to himself and not know what he will say?

Then I thought, Why does he pray? He should already know. Then I thought, why did he say "father you have forsaken me..."

It was at that point that I started to think that church and god was a flim-flam and I begged not to be dragged there again.

It took another 20 years of inquiry to finally rid myself of it.

[asdfTambourine]

There's a discussion on this topic at h2g2 com / F19585?thread=6131556.

I like Novo's comment there: "Doubt is not a pleasant condition but certainty is an absurd one."

And here's another clever remark:

"Religions are like glow-worms. They need darkness in order to shine." Arthur Schopenhauer, philosopher

TRiG.

[middlekk]

The bishop longs for the day when only the priests knew how to read.

In short, he mourns for the power he used to have.

[BayerLexan]

Lack of education and susceptibility to religious fantasies was very obvious to me when I was a young teen. I just looked at how most all of south america is catholic, and the state of their educational status.

[stevebritgimp]

I would take issue with 'since the Second World War'. Mr O'Donoghue obviously doesn't want to meditate on the Catholic involvement with Fascism, across Europe and elsewhere in the world. Part of the point of mass education in Western Societies is to keep that kind of thing in check. If a by-product is to damage the increasingly misnamed 'Mass' then so be it. Let's keep religion an anthropological phenomenon. Stone Age tribes have an excuse.

[Dutchdrummer99]

Great video. I have had many christian people ask; "well if god is not real why would people throughout history continue to believe it". "That just wouldn`t happen". It`s impossible".

[venividibitchy]

Equally amusing and disgraceful...

I appreciate the commentary, and the link to the article -- it shall give me something to gawk at for the next few days.

[ProfMTH]

Thanks, Tenneral. I will read the article. It had seemed to become unfashionable for churchmen to say out loud that people were getting too smart to buy what the churchmen were selling. But I guess desperate times in the Church call for desperate measures. It's good to hear that members of the bishop's own flock don't take too well to being lumped in with the ignorant and uneducated.

[middlekk]

Not to mention the Jesuits!

Smartest guy I ever met was a Jesuit-trained practicing Catholic. He'd give you a run for your money on any subject you'd care to bring up.

Died way too young. Brain cancer. The irony is not lost on me.

[lavoll]

excellent video and commentary as always :) But I have to ask, is there anything significant about the picture behind you?

:)

[tenneral]

It's the house I was born in many, many decades ago. Thanks for the comment.

[drchaffee]

Tenneral - excellent topic, comments, and well-spoken as usual. To education!! I'm reading the article now - it will be interesting to see how many blogs pick it up.

[cadden85]

The catholic church want another dark ages so they can rake in the money and make up for the last couple off centuries, which has been quite bad for them

[Gwaithmir]

Thanks for the excellent video and newspaper article. It would seem as if the Church still supports most of what was declared in its "Oath Against Modernism" and "Syllabus of Errors", both of which should be required reading for anyone who thinks the Church will ever institute progressive reforms.

[ubergossen]

I guess Catholicism never likes too much of a good thing. Don't have too much sex! Don't get too educated!

[qiranger]

Most people are content to be sheep.

[HURUHRA]

Well said Michael. I agree %100. His grace was preaching good old anglican conservatism, as usual

[premed2]

To think, that education could undermine the foundation of religion. What a complete surprise!

[kurtilein3]

soon they will preach to children that they should learn less for school, hoping that they then get bad grades so that they cannot go to university.

or wait... arent they doing it already, just in a less open way?

[julzabro]

Excellent points! Thanx 4 sharing this!

[wiskawind]

I love your videos; I am a late bloomer, woke up at age 53! LOL

[juliuschas]

I gather, Tenneral, that the Bishop himself is unsullied by education. I notice that he spelled "endeavor" in the U.S. fashion... shocking! It's far too late for me--I succumbed to a couple of universities decades ago, and in America, to boot. Look for the UK priesthood to shrink further as British Catholics realize that His Grace has just loudly equated their faith and devotion with ignorance and bad school reports. Thanks, Mr. Bish!

[thatgaybloke]

Control of knowledge has always been a powerful tool used by totalitarian regimes. Once people start thinking for themselves, they see how ridiculous these tales of magic and angels are. The paradox between being told that poverty and humility are virtues by an organisation with vast riches and an obsession with pomp and spectacle.

The gravy train is drying up - and about time too.

[CousinoMacul]

Yes indeed: education, improved health, greater wealth, more communication and comfort are evil because they undermine religion. Except for that word "evil", I have to say that I agree 100% LOL!

[tecnoblix]

Oh the humanity! LOL!

[shoyhoy]

I always find it absurd when people say that religion and politics should be kept separate. Organised religion is the oldest and most effective form of political control. It places the authority of god into the hands of men who not only threaten you with punishment in this life, but damnation in the next. Education is the only way out and let us hope that one day all the priests and pastors will be out of a job.

[Katalyzt]

★★★★★

[angryislander56]

Conversely in America I think the Church is

fading because it is too intellectual.Easier to

write one's own Bible(Mormons) or take a literal

reading(mega-church fundamentalism).Maybe I should

say faux intellect:)

[ProfMTH]

That's an interesting observation, Angryislander. To be more specific, it seems to me what's happening is that the intellectual wing of the Church is being dismissed by Catholics who see it as nothing but a "lefty", post-Vatican-II mistake. Those who do this dismissing are seeking the old "pray, pay, and obey" approach to Catholicism with lots of Latin and the rest of the trappings -- it's a sort of Catholic version of fundamentalism.

My partner and I were members of a parish run by...

[ProfMTH]

...Jesuits for many years. The parish represented the best of the intellectual tradition in Catholicism, along with being one of the most progressive religious institutions I've ever encountered. In the main, the place was treated like a pariah by the old-time-religion crowd in (and running) the diocese. But they couldn't really do very much to it because its Sunday Masses were packed and it ran a vibrant social justice/outreach program that worked to met *many* unmet needs in the neighborhood.

[fractal420]

Hurray for radical scepticism!

[Danmill23]

Good to the last drop as always Tenneral.

Recently I heard an interesting observation along similar lines. Every since the bible was translated into english, the "common man" could access it. This has created a wide variety of interpretations. In the past the catholics I suppose controlled the bible, which meant you had more consensus. You had someone "offical" who could tell you what it meant. Which might create unity as oppossed to indvidualistic interpretations.

[MartinJWillett]

It wasn't just by keeping the Bible out of the vernacular that the Church was stifling knowledge, they insisted on keeping universities as closed shops: if you didn't obey the Church's rulings you weren't allowed anywhere near the best universities and they had no fondness for mass literacy. Christianity in general and the Catholic Church in particular has valued ignorance, superstition and gullibility as virtues.

[WizardJim]

Reminds me of a quote from Babylon 5, the speaker being a catholic priest;

"A decline in faith and influence of the Church was to be expected once humans penetrated heaven and found there was no angels, no choir eternal, no not even a delinquent seraphim left behind by the general evacuation, just infinite space."

[newalbion]

concupiscence=horniness? If you get that from education, I'm all for more education.

[CognosSquare]

The cornucopia (Latin: Cornu Copiae) is a symbol of food and abundance.

I think this is the one referred to. Basically excessive lifestyle.

[middlekk]

He said "concupiscence". Ie, sexual desire.

With the priests, it's all about the naughty bits, isn't it?

[CognosSquare]

You are correct, I misheard.

[baronblod2003]

Great as always, tenneral!