Pastor Rick Warren on Gay Marriage, Abortion, Torture

[Johnf85]

His argument against redefining marriage is conflated with his perception of gay morality. He scores gay the same as incest, polygamy, and pedophilia. I would ask anyone who doesnt want to redefine marriage for these reasons to explain why its bad to be gay. Clearly among this segment, they feel its a sin and thats the motivation for not wanting to re-define marriage. What is wrong with being gay folks? Same sex attraction is acceptable. Incest and pedophilia is not whether your homo or hetero.

[lijoti513]

He is a fucking prick!

[Aciel88]

Haha, he needs to do more research. There are plenty of cultures in which a marriage is not strictly male/female! Just one example of many is in Tibet, called polyandry. Look it up!

[Sirafrican]

Amen pastor rick!!! That's the truth!!!!

[Spectralancer]

Barack Obama, not Barrack Obama.

[Albtraumen]

Mealy mouthed bigotted lardass isn't he?

[toelesshoe]

It is better to make use of your brother"s wife, than to spill your seed upon the ground. Another moral teaching from the bible. Take heed sisters

[MagicPlums]

Please provide details where to find this in the bible.

[toelesshoe]

@MagicPlums Gen. 38:8-10

[MagicPlums]

My understanding of this is that some bloke married his dead brother's wife (social norm at the time?) but refused to give her children (for selfish reasons) by pulling out during sex and spilling his seed on the floor. For this he was punished by God.

I suggest people read these verses and make up their own minds as to the morality of them.

[toelesshoe]

@MagicPlums Could you elaborate on god's "punishment" please

[GwydionMapDon]

The jews believed in polygamy until the freaking middle ages! Marriage HAS been redefined, by his very own religious tradition! Marriage defiitions also DO vary across cultures. Some cultures have embraced homosexuality as natural, even spiritual. He is blowing smoke to obsure his bigotry and intollerance. He will justify his unjust discrimination in any way he can.

[OZMYMAN]

there are only 8.5 million more women in america what about those without partners?do they become public property?

[watson4davegp]

_YOURFREEGAYWEBSITE(DOT)C0M_ Who's Betty?

[drumbunny]

Clearly Pastor Warren doesn't know history very well. Marriage has had a fluid definition throughout history. Marriages between one man and many wives or even child-aged wives was once widely accepted. Now it is not accepted. So why cannot marriages between two consenting adults of the same sex be accepted while polygamist or bigamist marriages remain illegal. He is lumping them all together ... and he's wrong.

[weilian11]

so many evil thing that was accepted throughout history,like slavery or child killing. If such thing is consent by two party,or even by the community, does this make what is wrong ,right? right and wrong doesn't base on what can people accept and what people can't.

[itry2brational]

weilian,

I think what you are trying to say is that Warren made a logical fallacy called argumentum ad populum. Just because a large group of people believe a certain way does not make them correct.

[emmylousings]

I believe that all gays, are ''nuttier then fruitcakes''. God was so sickened by their abnormal lusts, that He says that '' He gave them up to their own reprobate minds''.

[cumcumskeete]

what makes you say god hates gays is it because you hate gays! you maniacs make hate this world of hate!! you should be ashamed 2 be a god worshiper, and ihate when people say its nothing but a trend real gays cant choose to be straight...you ignorant fools will never learn.. either they were born biologically diffeerent it shouldnt be something lookeas a crime. ahhhhhhhhhhhhh!!! im sorry but you r stupid. the only sick people r u. gays and fags is not the same.

[98orpheus]

Wow- really? Well-I think youre good, honey- someone that actually had a conversation with God, and then somehow managed to stay alive for a few thousand years to tell us about it is definitely worth listening to. LOL- fucking douche

[cumcumskeete]

everyday ifeel the pain of being discriminated by prejudice and ignorance..hoping someday there will be a change ..i believe god made gay people it is our nature its been this way since anceint times i was born gay and have to live with ihave suffered severe deppression due to it and i pray to god everyday for strength and wisdom so i can live a free life and not alie ..think about it people who truely knowhowit feel it is u who keep me going..to know im not alone and there is hope

[emmylousings]

God gives his OWN opinion of ''gays'' within His written word, the Bible. He takes no responsibility for the fact that some people decided to corrupt sex, and go against nature. "Being born'' gay, is nothing more then an attempt to deny personal responsibility for filthy acts.

[thealternative1]

This is so wrong

[astoria30001]

That fat ass Warren was 99% pure bull shit!

[Shelbyoryan82]

the bible was written by primitive man and anyone who worships it to the T is living primitvely and if u force that belief system on a society... it will stunt that societies evolutionary growth. by the way... do not compare my love for another person with a fucking dog ok!

[gfcofc]

I have never read a book written by primitive man. I didn't know they had the ability to write, even your evolutionary beliefs will support that. This society would not exist without religion and common distinctions between right and wrong.

[nolibsinmycircle]

No if we legalize gay marriage next marrying your dog, cat, horse. Where does it stop. Simple just turn all the gays over to the Muslim community and let them handle it.

[gfcofc]

Gay marriage is a key social issue that effects everyone. If we legalize gay marriage we basically say the Bible and God are wrong and we stray even farther away from our Christian heritage. Yes, this country was founded by men and women who believed in God and the Bible.

[iamageek0]

ignorance.. hope someday it comes back to hit you.

[marthale7]

You are right on 100% The bible is right on. Jesus said Adam and Eve are the example. God made an example of Sodom and Gomorah ( now known a a big hole in the ground call the DEAD sea ) , and will make examples of others who loose this moral standard. I am so glad that homosexual can repent of this sin, and turn to God.

[itry2brational]

"Jesus said Adam and Eve are the example."

Then we should follow their example and disobey God?

Or should we follow God's example and commit genocide and infanticide? Or God's example of lying to Adam and Eve?

"for when you eat of it you will surely die."

"for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Gen 2:17

They didn't die. Besides, how could they know God wasn't evil before eating from the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil"?

People forgive sooner than God.

[solly7]

Adam & Eve died spiritually, which is what God was referring to. If you read Scripture to understand it, you will see this. If you are just looking to find "contradictions", you can find what you're looking for on a Campbell's soup label, just as well.

[itry2brational]

"Adam & Eve died spiritually, which is what God was referring to."

Really? Did God make that distinction in the Bible somewhere? When he commanded Abraham to kill his son, did he mean it in the 'spiritual' sense? When he killed all life on earth save a few was it also metaphorical?

What contradictions are there on a Campbell's soup label? Is Campbell's trying to establish an ideology/world-view/religion?

I think what you mean is, you can find whatever you're looking for in the BIBLE.

[solly7]

Actually, I meant what I said, as I said it.

It is evident by the unfolding of the events subsequent to God's original statement that Adam & Eve suffered a spiritual death rather than a physical one, ergo their being removed from the Garden & the subsequent need for a Savior (Jesus).

By the same application of linear logic, it is apparent that the deaths from the flood were, indeed, literal. Hence, the need for the sons AND their wives for the re-population of the Earth.

[solly7]

Abraham was told to sacrifice his son Isaac for a very specific reason.

Abraham had been unwilling to wait on the Lord for his promised son, hence the bastard child Ishmael by the servant girl.

Abraham had always professed his faith & trust in God. Yet, he had shown it was not settled in his own heart. By walking through the sacrifice of his son, to the point of having raised the knife, he learned that he was, indeed, fully committed to God in his own heart.

[solly7]

Now. already know that you are not intent on giving any serious consideration to what is being said. You will simply focus on one word or thought, & try to use that to discount everything, congratulating yourself for your own cleverness in the process.

However, you need to be confronted with the truth. What you do with it is up to you.

[itry2brational]

"Actually, I meant what I said, as I said it."

Then by all means, reveal the contradictions on Campbell's soup labels which hurt the ideology its attempting to establish.

If only your Bible meant what it said, as it said it. If it is "evident" that God meant a 'spiritual' death, where is the evidence? Is spiritual death ever defined in the Bible? If its after A & E, how would they have known its a bad?

It actually doesn't seem all that bad. The only one who makes things bad is, well, God.

[itry2brational]

"the subsequent need for a Savior"

Which God set them up for. So, before they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they were inept in those regards. So they had no way of knowing if God were good and the serpent were evil...yet God punishes not only them, but all humanity for their complete ignorance.

"application of linear logic"

Sure, lets apply some logic.

So Jesus is God "I and the father are one", that would mean God sacrificed himself, to himself to appease...himself. hmmm

[itry2brational]

"it is apparent that the deaths from the flood were, indeed, literal."

Its also apparent that God must enjoy creating things he knows will fail so that he can destroy them...or torture them for eternity. Again, what makes it 'apparent' and 'evident'?

"the need for the sons AND their wives for the re-population of the Earth."

And the fathers and their son's wives, and their daughters with their cousins etc So incest was God's tool for re-population. Nice one 'G'.

[musicminister5]

@itry2brational I totally disagree with your statement: "God enjoy making failures to destroy them". That's not true! God loves everyone, but lets each of us make our own decisions to choose Life or Death! When you go against the laws of God, you choose DEATH. When you choose to follow the laws of God, you choose LIFE! Period! It's that simple!

[itry2brational]

musicminister5,

God knew all of this would happen and did it anyways. Why create billions of people that he knows will reject him or never know him and then torture them for eternity if he ISNT a masochist?

If any person pointed a gun to your head and said 'believe in me or I will blow your head off...your choice', is that really a 'choice'?

Why does God need to threaten you with eternal punishment if he is the 'truth and the way'?

[idaman12345]

@musicminister5 actually when you choose to follow religion you choose to give up your right to think on your own

[musicminister5]

@idaman12345 the thing is I don't follow religion, I choose to follow Jesus Christ! Has it occured to you that when America turned away from God (I'm talking about those that work in high places - senate, congress, etc..), things turned for the worse? Why take a Chance? God forbid, what if you die today and find out there really is a heaven and hell and if you did not follow God's instructions and repent you go to hell? Would you want to take that kind of a chance?

[musicminister5]

@idaman12345 My last statement I meant to say if you don't repent, you cannot see heaven. God is a forgiving and a just God. But his wrath is just as great as his mercy. Its not that you give up your rights, but because of the simple fact that God is the reason why each of us is here why not follow his word!

[idaman12345]

@musicminister5 because there is no god and any of "his word" was written by man

[itry2brational]

"Abraham was told to sacrifice his son Isaac for a very specific reason."

So. Personally, speaking as a person with morals, I could care less what reason is given for commanding someone to murder their own son.

[itry2brational]

"hence the bastard child Ishmael by the servant girl."

So Sarai can't bear(all but Isaac are 'bastards', 7 of 8), she suggests Abram impregnate her slave. Nice!

Hagar conceives and despises the sight of Sarai (understandable). Sarai whines to Abram that its his fault and he says, 'she's your slave, do what you want to her'(paraphrased). Sarai 'dealt with her harshly' (aka beat a pregnant woman) so Hagar fled. You go girl!

Impregnating a slave girl then beating her. Your moral source?

[itry2brational]

"Now. already know that you are not intent on giving any serious consideration to what is being said."

Likewise, I am sure.

Your arrogance of certainty and mental gymnastics are nothing new.

What you expect me to do is drop all logic, reason and facts in order to accept your version of 'truth'. Truth is that which comports with reality. One of us is certainly being more realistic.

You can choose to be a good, moral person without belief in the irrational.

[carlosinferi]

What a stupid old asshole

[adoracle1]

the point being that if we can do it, then God can too. However he pulls it off, its not outside the realm of our own reality except that the details are absent and so you assume that in those times technology was absent.But God's not an earthling.His technology is clearly superior to anything we can do, but we emulate our maker;HE EXISTS

ps. to all...bible does NOT say that soul enters at conception, Rickyboy lies through his judgmental,hypocritical teeth.

[adoracle1]

we have technology to do most of what you mention.IVF=virgin birth/hyper cloning=multiplying fish/snake is symbolic/speakers can explain report o talking bush/ventriloquism could clear up donkey;food falls from sky/rocks,frogs,fish2 [tornado etc]we preserve braindead bodies,transplant organs,use cpr/revive the hours ago drowned.zombies r "walking dead".whats so odd about any of that?God let his son b slaughtered 2 save u.if that ain't love,I don't know what is.ingrate.

[adoracle1]

testing

[jadoredashboard]

"Historically," women have been secondhand citizens and slavery has been legal. Does that make it right?

[jadoredashboard]

Being gay isn't a "lifestyle." It's being you.

[AMPatriot4Life]

His comments against polygamy are ignorant.

Any Muslim in the world will tell you that their own prophet Mohamed had several wives, and it is lawful for Muslim men to marry men up to 4 wives.

And as for abortion he is weak. He thinks that child murder is a personal issue. How lame and idiotic?

[herkamer101]

why so hateful Mrdarkbloom,just because someone believes in something doesn't mean he is a bigot. I guess its ok for you to be hateful and say whatever you please. Abortion kills babies, anybody can see that.

[paraparanormal]

He always says the same exact crap. "Well, I'm against redifining a 5,000 year old term..."

He needs a stronger argument.

[MrDarkbloom]

This ignorant hateful guy has the bloody audacity to harp on about adopting the moral highground!!! He is a joke. He says life begins at conception because of the what it says in the bible, but it says NOTHING about abortion and everybody knows that torture is COMPLETELY acceptable in the bible - God is totally a murderer and a torturer. Mr Warren is making the shit up. He's a con-man and a deceitful bigot. DAMMIT, I HATE THIS FAT LYING PIG!!!!

[MrDarkbloom]

Rick Warren is an ignorant homophobic hypocritical coward who hides behind anti-intellectual bullshit like transparently selective readings of the Bible and complete historical untruths. Polygamy is utterly endorsed by the bible!!! There is NO explicit endorsement of monogomous heterosexual marraige in the bible!!! He's a goddam liar. Oh, and this guy is NO Christian... we only have to surmise that of course Jesus would have given gay marraige his blessing. DAMMIT, I HATE IGNORANCE!!!

[eierer]

Hehe, polygamy is actually allowed in both the old and the new testament. This guy should read the bible. :)

[MelodyOfVision]

Beskargam and Atheistjeremy,

I'll talk to you guys tomorrow if you want to continue this discussion!

Melody Of Vision

[nyXdeathXangel]

Rick Warren has no idea what he's talking about, the homophobic buttmonkey.

Historically marriage had to be redefined to ONE man and ONE woman. And the Bible says that life begins at the first breath, not conception.

[MelodyOfVision]

Life at conception is in Psalm 139:13-16

13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.

14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.

15 My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,

16 your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.

[Beskargam]

If life begins at conception, then is a chimera baby guilty of murder or manslaughter, since it is the result of one zygote being absorbed by another? If not, then are both of the original zygotes still alive in the same being? If that is the case, then do chimeras have multiple souls?

Also, your Bible passages point more towards life beginning before conception than AT conception.

[MelodyOfVision]

Oh I'm sorry, I guess I should have qualified that the Bible is for humans only. *Grin*

I guess you're right. God had us in mind long before He created us.

[Beskargam]

A chimera can be human. It's just the result of two fertilized eggs fusing together. Also, if life began at conception, then what about identical twins? Would one of them be less alive? Would one of them lack a soul?

[MelodyOfVision]

Oh I see what you mean. Thank you for explaining.

Why does one twin have to lack a soul? You've seen twins in real life, right?

Before I was born, my Mom miscarried a brother or sister. I don't know why God chose to do that, but I know I'll get to see him or her when I pass from this mortal coil.

I guess what I'm saying is that since God is the one who forms us in the womb, He can also decide to stop it, reabsorb zygotes and what have you.

Have you ever met a chimera with multiple souls?

[Beskargam]

I'm basing my questions on the assumption that ensoulment takes place when life begins (since human life couldn't exist without a soul in Christian theology). Based on that assumption, identical twins would somehow have to manifest another soul when they split apart, or they would have to split their soul when they split apart, leaving each one with half a soul. As for chimeras, without a way to actually test how many souls a person has, I'm going to have to say "I don't know".

[MelodyOfVision]

*Shrug* It *is* a good question. But this isn't something Christians sit around mulling about all day. I think it's more important to get to know God for Himself and not so much the minutiae of the things He created. Let science discover what He has done.

If you're really curious to know, you should ask God Himself. Prayer won't hurt you, along with reading the Bible to understand God. I have to say though, that sometimes God answers in ways we don't expect or in the time limit we give Him.

[Beskargam]

Oh, I have read the Bible, and it has helped me understand that the Christian God is terrifyingly inconsistent for a perfect being when it comes to many issues.

As for your comment about science, who do you think drives the advancement of science if not people that want to understand things? Science is what lets us understand that viruses like HIV are the results of mutations, not divine intervention aimed at a "specific" group of people.

[MelodyOfVision]

Wow, you totally missed the point about the Bible. Did you even pray and ask God about things you didn't understand as you read the Bible? I don't think you did.

HIV can be both the result of mutations and a divine judgment. Why must it be one or the other? And judgment doesn't have to be the "end all" for its recipient. Judgment can also be executed to turn the recipient away from a behavior God had not intended and also to warn others.

[Beskargam]

Not things I didn't understand, behaviors that contradicted what the God of the Bible said. For instance, being just but allowing an innocent to take the punishment for the guilty. Or there's always God's many different positions on divorce, most of which are mutually exclusive. As for HIV, yeah, I've heard that argument too, but since you can't actually verify it or support it with facts, it doesn't stand up as an "argument".

[MelodyOfVision]

Well I'm glad that you're trying to understand. Please don't give up - God is a lot nicer than what you've come to understand thus far. Understanding God is a journey - I didn't completely understand God overnight, but what I do know about Him I love and I'm enjoying the trip!

[Beskargam]

Except for when he's ordering the execution of the men and children of a nation and the capture and enslavement of its women. And of course, when he's sending bears to maul youths that verbally harass his prophets.

[MelodyOfVision]

"And of course, when he's sending bears to maul youths that verbally harass his prophets."

*Grin* Well, I thought that was pretty cool. And it worked too. Know one mocked Elisha since.

[Beskargam]

Except that it isn't actually cool, and it's not a just punishment.

[Beskargam]

Also, judgment that is directed at those guilty of a specific sin (like sexual immorality) would have to unable to afflict those not guilty of such a sin in order for it to be a just judgment.

[MelodyOfVision]

That's a misconception that all punishments would hurt only the guilty party. Sometimes not.

In the OT, Israel was wandering far away from God and committing all sorts of injustices, so He warned that they would lose their nation and be sent off to Babylon. This included good and bad people. God kept his faithful people safe for the most part, but some of His prophets died because those who didn't want to follow God had killed them. But they are ultimately safe because now they're with God.

[Beskargam]

Rather, it's a belief that a just punishment would hurt only the guilty party (which isn't really asking that much, if the punishment is supposed to be coming from a perfect and omnipotent being). The difference between your example and mine is that in yours, God gave a clear warning with clear consequences. Never in the Bible does God say "If you persist in acts of sexual immorality, I will send a virus that will infect you and your children."

[MelodyOfVision]

I agree with you that God didn't specify the punishment of sexual immorality (a larger category) in the Bible. But sometimes when something terrible happens like HIV/AIDS, you can recognize the punishment.

And it *has* worked. There are some gays who have been afflicted with the virus who have come to know Jesus as their Lord and Savior. And it also have turned some healthy gays to come to Him too.

[Beskargam]

Or, you can assume it's a punishment, despite the fact that it would have been much more suitable as a punishment at the time of, say, the Roman Empire (with their massive amounts of sexual immorality). If it was really meant to punish sexual immorality, it would have originated in the 70's. Heck, if it was really just for punishing sexual immorality, then it wouldn't have been a tall order for God to make it transmissible only through semen and vaginal fluid, right?

[MelodyOfVision]

God never instituted marriages with multiple wives and had to spell it out at some point to define as one man and one woman.

And He NEVER included marriages of the same sex.

[nyXdeathXangel]

Yes he did institute multiple-wife marriages, in many religions PLUS Judaism.

Secondly, no one, not a single person follows the Bible. Not even you, so don't pick and choose irrelevant things from an allegedly holy book to further the agenda of your own sick prejudices. It's disgusting.

[MelodyOfVision]

Nowhere does God promote multiple-wife marriage. People just started doing that anyway, and God had to limit it to one man and one wife later on.

About following the Bible:

That's why Jesus died for the world, to reconcile to Him anyone who wants to. He gives us the Holy Spirit to enable us to understand and follow the Bible.

I'm fine with you not wanting to follow. No one should be forced to. But did it ever dawn on you that what you do is disgusting to God?

[nicksum29]

Thank God I am not American.

[MelodyOfVision]

*Grin* I thank God you're not American either.

[nicksum29]

Simply because I thanked God that I'm not one? - again, I thank God I am not American.

[MelodyOfVision]

And again, I thank God too that you're not American.

[Mannheim67]

how can americans living in california be so lacking in common sense? marriage, by nature, has to do with complementarity: a man and a woman; male & female!

[Jeremyguru]

Notice how this dirtbags compares gay people getting married to pedophilia. How the fuck do ignoramuses like this consult presidents?

[MelodyOfVision]

*Shrug* Warren cares more about what God thinks then about what liberals think. That's all.

[Jeremyguru]

"*Shrug* Warren cares more about what God thinks then about what liberals think. That's all." That's pathetic because your sky nanny isn't real. So you're saying that Warren prefers the opinion of an imaginary friend over real people.

Warren is a bigot and apparently you are too.

[MelodyOfVision]

You think what you say shames me?

I don't care what you think either.

[Jeremyguru]

You should be ashamed of hate and bigotry. If you're not...well, you're just a bigot. That's a miserable way to live.

Hating gays for being gay is no different than hating your uncle for eating peanut butter and pickle sandwiches. If might be disgusting, but it doesn't harm YOU.

[MelodyOfVision]

You sure assume a lot. I don't hate gay people, but what they're doing is wrong.

Accusing people who don't agree with the gay lifestyle is one of the ways that gay people try to intimidate others. But it's still wrong.

You can accuse me all day and it won't change anything. I'm not one bit ashamed for speaking out about it.

[Atheistjeremy]

Homosexuality isn't "wrong." How does their behavior harm anyone? How does it hurt you?

[MelodyOfVision]

It hurts homosexuals because of the judgment that will fall on them. It hurts a society as a whole because it accepts one more immoral choice. When that builds up, it brings down judgment as it did at Sodom and Gemorrah.

I live in a city with a relatively high percentage of gay people, so I don't hate them or fear them. I actually like them for whatever personality one would like anyone else. If I'm outspoken it's because I don't want judgment to fall on them.

[Atheistjeremy]

"It hurts homosexuals because of the judgment that will fall on them." That's your lame, unsupported religious belief. Homosexuality has nothing to do with morality. It doesn't hurt you and it doesn't hurt me.

Sodom and G never existed. The story is a myth. The story is repeated nearly verbatim in Judges, using different characters. However, instead of incest following the destruction of S @ G there is the murder and dismemberment of concubine.

Great story.

[MelodyOfVision]

No those two don't even parallel each other. Get your facts straight. Incest was not the cause of S&G's destruction, it was because of their mounting sins. Then, the homosexuals wanted to rape the angels visiting Lot, which was really the last straw.

The concubine in the book of Judges was raped and what have you by the homosexuals because they couldn't have the priest (who wasn't so great himself). She died from her injuries and all the other Israelites came against that town for that.

[Atheistjeremy]

"No those two don't even parallel each other." They're the same story, with some changes and different characters. Someone made this stupid story up and someone else borrowed it.

"Incest was not the cause of S&G's destruction." I didn't say it was. It's just funny that Xians are repulsed by gayness but they don't blink an eye at the incest of Lot and his daughters.

Yeah, she was raped. The old man offered her to the mob just like Lot offered his daughters. How noble.

[MelodyOfVision]

And homosexuality did bring judgment and harm not only them, but everybody else. I know this isn't popular but AIDS came about as judgment for their behavior. And because people are so irresponsible, it has spread to innocent people such as children and those who required blood transfusions.

[Atheistjeremy]

HIV is a VIRUS. Viruses don't care who they infect. Homosexuals didn't cause HIV. HIV infects homo and heterosexuals.

The problem here is that you're a bigot. You want to justify your hatred of gays, but you have no logical reason for doing so, so you rely on primitive, superstitious, ignorant god-myths. You're not fooling intelligent, educated, rational people.

[MelodyOfVision]

Well, I *told* you that this wasn't a popular thing to state. This is what a good number of people believe but are too afraid to say.

And of course you're going to accuse me of all sorts of terrible things, but that's to be expected. Like I said, I care more about what God thinks, than I do of those who hate Him. I do believe however that some people out there will take what I have to say to heart, read the Bible, get to know God, and accept His ways as the truth.

[Atheistjeremy]

"Well, I *told* you that this wasn't a popular thing to state. This is what a good number of people believe but are too afraid to say." Right. That's what bigots say. You should be ashamed of yourself.

"I do believe however that some people out there will take what I have to say to heart, read the Bible, get to know God, and accept His ways as the truth." Your religion has caused untold human misery. Civilized society can only hope that one day Xianity dies out.

[MelodyOfVision]

You can keep hoping.

There will come a time, when you'll think what you've hoped for has come true, because Christians will be persecuted again on a grand scale.

But just when you think we're wiped out, you'll be sorely disappointed again.

[Beskargam]

Christians will almost certainly not be persecuted again, what with the fact that they aren't a tiny and easy to exploit minority anymore. They were never persecuted on a "grand" scale.

[MelodyOfVision]

Christians *have* been persecuted through the centuries, but maybe in ways that aren't so obvious to you. It's obvious when Christian churches get burned down or bombed, or when they're getting killed by those outside the faith.

But there is also persecution within. Not everyone who goes to church is Christian and not every church who professes faith in God is Christian. We get our worst persecution there. It was "church people" who condemned Jesus on the cross to die.

[Beskargam]

I didn't say they haven't been persecuted, I said they haven't been persecuted on a grand scale (for instance, millions of them getting slaughtered at a time). So, not every person that professes faith in God is Christian? Why not? How can any other human honestly claim to know if another person is not Christian? I've heard this sort of argument before, usually from people that seek to define "being Christian" as "sharing one hundred percent of the beliefs that I have concerning the Bible."

[MelodyOfVision]

I *did* say the grand scale persecution will be in the future, did I not?

And I did not make a specific statement about who is and who isn't a Christian, only that not everyone who goes to church is Christian. Nowadays some people go to church to socialize, make business contacts, etc. But the Bible does say that you will know them by their fruit (Luke 6:43-45).

[Beskargam]

As in, you would be able to tell by their actions, yes?

Why would the grand scale persecution be in the future? More to the point, how could it possibly come about, given the sheer number of Christians that exist?

[MelodyOfVision]

Don't you even see it now?

It starts with turning the minds of people against God, Christians and what they believe in. Look at this discussion thread: people telling me I should be ashamed of myself for believing in what God says is wrong about homosexuality and abortion. It starts there.

And it is also in the church. The more popular churches preach prosperity that caters to the greed in people. There are more and more cult-like churches that would rather have you follow them than God.

[Beskargam]

Actually, it's people that think you're bigoted (which I can't actually understand, since the word "bigoted" wouldn't even apply to you if you were against gays, since being bigoted is being prejudiced in favor of something). I haven't seen anyone knock your stance on abortion, but that's probably because you don't need to be Christian to be pro-life. Someone telling you that you should be ashamed for your beliefs isn't persecution, it's just holding an opinion that your beliefs are shameful.

[Atheistjeremy]

People shouldn't be ashamed of their beliefs when they're totally wrong?

So you don't think that Muslims extremists should be ashamed of their beliefs?

[MelodyOfVision]

"So you don't think that Muslims extremists should be ashamed of their beliefs?"

I don't think there is any point in trying to shame them. It's a waste of time.

[Atheistjeremy]

There are Muslims who leave their religion every day, so no, it's not a waste of time.

[MelodyOfVision]

"There are Muslims who leave their religion every day, so no, it's not a waste of time."

Okay, then go ahead and tell them they should be ashamed of themselves. I bet you're too afraid.

[Atheistjeremy]

Afraid? I do it all the time.

[MelodyOfVision]

"Afraid? I do it all the time."

And does it work? No. If you go around trying shaming everyone like you're the PC police, they're just going to dig their heels in. It's a waste of time.

[MelodyOfVision]

Beskargam and Atheistjeremy,

I'm really losing track of the discussion threads. You can PM me if you wish to continue the discussion. :o)

Melody Of Vision

[Atheistjeremy]

Again, you're wrong. I've made a difference is several people's lives. Some folks have thanked me and we continue to email, etc. Some folks have influenced ME and made me view some issues from different perspectives.

I'm not interested in the brainwashed fanatics. Most of these people cannot be helped. There are a lot of people out there who haven't committed or they're sitting on the fence, so to speak, or they really haven't thought much about the subject. There is hope for those folks.

[MelodyOfVision]

Of course you're not interested in brainwashed fanatics, because you weren't able to brainwash them first. Control freak.

[Atheistjeremy]

YOU believe in virgin births, resurrections, flying Jews, zombies, food falling from the sky, multiplying fish, water-walking, talking donkeys, snakes and bushes. Your god supposedly smites, drowns, curses, plagues and tortures people and you think this deity is "loving." And you say I'm brainwashing people?

What a laugh.

[Beskargam]

Addressing this to the wrong person perhaps?

I made no mention of if anyone should or should not be ashamed of their beliefs, I simply states that telling someone that their beliefs are shameful does not constitute persecution.

[MelodyOfVision]

I'm not sure either, I'm losing track of these threads. Anyway...

"I simply states that telling someone that their beliefs are shameful does not constitute persecution. "

But I also said that it starts there, in the changing of public opinion. Why were the Jews nearly wiped out in WWII? It was because generation upon generation of Europeans were told that Jews were degenerates or subhuman.

[Beskargam]

Actually the comment you replied to with this comment was made to Atheistjeremy.

For the record though, nobody is claiming that Christians are subhuman (nor will they be able to get away with it, since the Christians are not a minority, unlike the Jews).

[Atheistjeremy]

I don't hope that Xians or any other group will be "persecuted." There you go with your filthy Xian "logic" again.

We will never get rid of religion. If Xianity dies out it will probably replaced by some other nonsense, but hopefully it won't be as destructive as Xianity. Why not replace Xianity with Jainism? I've never heard of a Jainist murdering anyone.

[MelodyOfVision]

*Smile* Well, Atheistjeremy, you are free to do whatever you want. There is no one to stop you from promoting Jainism if this is what you wish!

[Atheistjeremy]

Oh no, I'm not promoting Jainism. The point is that if we must have religion, I'd prefer the non-violent kind. There are many religions that are more peaceful than Xiantiy. There are many gods more "loving" than Yahweh the War God.

[MelodyOfVision]

God isn't a war god, but He's no push-over. That's one of the things I like about Him. He has my respect!

[Atheistjeremy]

Yahweh The War God, according to your "good book," murdered millions of people. He committing attrocities that mortal mass murderers could only dream of. He wiped out entire towns, cities and races. He drowned the entire planet. He tortures DEAD people.

And you respect this? I fear that you're totally, irreversibly brainwashed.

[MelodyOfVision]

"And you respect this? I fear that you're totally, irreversibly brainwashed."

And I care because....? Like water rolling off a duck's back.

[Beskargam]

You cannot believe that a virus is intended solely as a punishment for homosexuals if it didn't even start up among the homosexual community.

[MelodyOfVision]

You're right in saying that it did not originate in the homosexual community, but it became prevalent in that community. I wouldn't say that AIDS came about as the sole reason for punishing homosexuals, but God can use anything to punish or even bless anyone.

[Beskargam]

Which is what makes the Christian God so annoying to hear people talk about. If something unpleasant happens to someone that is doing something bad, then it's God punishing them. If something bad happens to someone that is doing something good, then it's God testing them. If something good happens to someone, then it's God blessing them. Unfortunately, when you put many of these sorts of instances under the microscope, the claim of divine intervention just doesn't add up. Like with AIDS.

[MelodyOfVision]

If you say so, but others don't share your view.

[Beskargam]

"If you say so, but others don't share your view."

What is this in response to?

[MelodyOfVision]

Click on "View all comments" at the bottom and you'll see which post it responds to. Sorry if it did not indent under the right post.

[Beskargam]

I meant "was it in response to the first part of my comment, or to the end part, where I claim that it doesn't add up to blame AIDS on diviner intervention?"