1844 - 2300 day prophecy - Investigative Judgment - Part 5

[elmensagero1]

God bless you guys for this kind of study, keep it up, this is truly the true church of God with the true to speak in our times. people dont want to hear the truth but that dont mean the SDA is wrong. they just dont want to hear it.

[chimham84]

what do you mean about other intelligent beings in heaven?

[sleanos]

Bible says we see dimly now. We cannot see angels for example unless they reveal themselves to us physically. In this large universe, Bible hints at that their are other unfallen sinless worlds of created beings. We'll never know them though until after the second coming of Christ.

[brendos444]

I'm sorry doug but seventh day adventists did not establish salvation by grace in 1844. This was done by Luther long before SDAs came on the scene. In fact salvation by grace remains a controversial position in the church today. In 1888 (over 40 years after SDA church were formed) salvation by grace was first preached in adventism! The Sabbath was introduced to us by 7th day Baptists. Baptism by immersion had been reinstated long before SDAs came. Baptists anyone?

[sleanos]

@brendos444 - Was there a point to your message here? What you stated is common knowledge and most SDA's understand this. You started off with a straw man argument though. Doug doesn't teach NOR does he believe that Seventh-day Adventists established the doctrine of salvation by grace in 1844 and why you would state such a thing I believe is just to cause controversary. I hope that's not you intent.

[brendos444]

@sleanos ummm sleanos, he says at the start of this video that 1844 was significant b/c Adventists brought back salvation by grace, baptism by immersion etc etc. In fact salvation by grace was rejected by early church pioneers and it was dubious whether EGW even supported it prior to 1888. Further, heretical beliefs that Jesus was not divine also abounded with early SDAs (and still continue to this day). Does this sound like a restoration of Biblical Christianity?

[sleanos]

Sorry no offense, but I see how you could misunderstand what he's saying. Have you ever heard Doug speak before or read Adventist history? You'd know that Doug didn't mean that in 1844 salvation by grace was all of a sudden discovered. He makes it clear that people from many denominations came together around that time bringing these truths and it was the people of the movement at that time that "discovered" all of these truths in their totality. He's not saying what you think he's saying.

[sleanos]

Guess you'd just have to read his writings/books or hear him speak to understand exactly what he meant by that. Easy enough to mistake just as most Christians misunderstand the writings of Ellen White and many unbelieves/skeptics misunderstand the writings of Scripture.

[sleanos]

There are heretical beliefs in existence amongst all people in just every denomination. There are none in the Seventh-day Adventist Church since they formulated their fundamental beliefs. The Seventh-day Adventist Church as a whole since it's formation has NEVER believed that Jesus was NOT divine. Don't confuse the few for the denominational whole just to try and validate your stance friend.

[brendos444]

I believe that the SDA church today is far more correct doctinally than it was in the early days. If SDAs hold to the fundamental beliefs then we are Biblically correct. But heresies about the divine nature of Christ and salvation by works were openly preached in the early church. It is not until relatively recently have SDAs decisively rejected the position of early church pioneers. So when I look at the early church, I see grave error on fundamental doctrine - not a beacon of light as DB says.

[sleanos]

I'll say it again, Adventist history shows that the offical church has never deviated from the fundamental beliefs. The World church still holds to the pillars of our faith. Yes there are some for example in North America who deviate from these biblical beliefs, but that is a reflection of a small minority or splinter groups and not the world church at large.

[robkelly100]

You all need to read Galatians and Ephesians. You are bringing yourselves under the bondage of the law, and when you do that, your playing a deadly game.

[sleanos]

What bondage? Is it bondage to not lie, cheat or steal? Is it bondage to NOT worship other Gods, or take His name in vain, or REST and Keep His day Holy as He asks of us. If that bondage? We worship everyday but come together weekly corporately especially on His Holy day as the commandments ask of us if we love Him. On what basis do you go to church on and worship Him on His Holy day since you claim it is bondage to do so.

[brendos444]

Yes sleanos the law was given to show us how much we need Christ. It can do nothing but condemn us. That is why Paul emphasises grace. You are quite right that the law still stands as a guide for our lives. But this idea that unless you keep the law perfectly all of the time and it is this keeping of the law that will save us can only lead to loss of faith. We need to repent of our sins daily and it is God's grace that will save us, not perfection to the law as many SDAs still preach.

[sleanos]

Are you sure you're Adventist or undertand Adventist beliefs? Yes we believe that the law only condemns us, but it is all the righteous standard of living and while obedience to the law cannot save us, obediance to all our Lord commands is the natural result/fruit of the Holy Spirit working in our hearts and minds. Love for the Lord produces obedience and while we live in a impperfect world, we are called to be perfect (in character) like our Father. All things are possible through Christ. faith

[brendos444]

we are set free from the bondage of the law in Christ. "I to the law died to the law, so that I might live under God!" Christ sets us free from the condemnation of the law. Our obedience comes from gratitude to God. We love the law because we love the Law Giver. But our works can never be enough to save us for they are like "filthy rags" . If we fall or stumble in our Christian walk, it is only the grace of God that enables us to get up and keep on going to finish the race, not of oursleves.

[sleanos]

Good then you do understand. This is what the Seventh-day Adventist church believes.

[robkelly100]

When Jesus ascended into heaven, He went to sit at the right hand of the Father. Acts shows that He did when Stephen saw Him as He was being stoned. The Father is in the Holy of Holies. Jesus has been there since His ascension. correct?

[sleanos]

Study the Sanctuary service for every element of it points to Jesus & the plan of salvation. Jesus DID enter the Holy of Holies once & for all with His blood for sacrifices similar to the Old Testament High Priest that went into the tabernacle annually with the blood of animals to activate (anoint it).

[sleanos]

The work of Christ in giving Himself for the world IS complete, His death on the cross is the only sacrifice we need, but the plan of salvation is still in effect until the culmination at the 2nd coming.

[robkelly100]

When you press an issue such as investigative judgement, it says that Jesus' sacrafice wasn't enough. Im not saying "once saved always saved" Im saying that if you do not follow the commandments of Jesus then you were never saved to begin with. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, body and spirit and Love your neighbor as you love yourself. If you do these things you do not transgress God's law and your will enter His kingdom.

[sleanos]

When we press an issue such as investigative judgment it is because it is BIBLICAL and being ignored/rejected by so many Christians. It is a part of the plan of Salvation, Jesus' plan and to reject ANY part of it is to reject the truth as it is in Him.

Agreed, maintain your connection to God relying on Him and His grace, allowing Him to work good works through us and you will not need to worry about Investigative judgment.

[brendos444]

@sleanos I don't think the fact that God judges is an issue. He most certainly will judge us. But what of this 1844 doctrine? That's a totally diff propostion. It prophesies a celestial event that no one can verify. Why should a earthly calendar correspond with a heavenly event, when God exists outside time and space? I am SDA, but this doctrine has never sat well with me. I can't prove that its right or wrong, but it has always seemed far-fetched to me. It smacks of time-setting....

[sleanos]

Have you studied the sanctuary service? God established it on earth as a pattern for the things in heaven. The sanctuar service details the plan of salvation and the work of the Messiah. Tie that along with the 2300 day prophecy in Daniel and while we cannot "prove" a heavenly event, we have enough evidence to trust in God and what He has revealed in His word. If you don't believe it, prayerfully study it out further. Jesus's 1st coming was time-set...was it not?

[brendos444]

... And we are told in the Bible not to do that. 1844 effectively puts a timeframe on the "hour of judgement". It gives impetus to this notion that the second coming is imminent. Now it may be, but it may not - especially from the human perspective. If we were to have an appoximate estimate (which is basically what 1844 is trying to do) of the 2nd coming - then it wouldn't be like a thief in the night, would it? Of course the blessed hope must remain in our hearts, but we can't know when...

[sleanos]

Sorryf riend, we are only told that noone know the actual second coming of Christ. Yet Jesus gives us lots of signs to know the time is at hand. And the prophecies of Daniel time-set the 1st coming of Jesus exactly. Just about every Christian denomination does that. 1844 was mistakenly thought of as the 2nd coming instead of what it really was.

[sleanos]

Paul makes it very clear that we will all stand before the judgment seat. The only matter is do our lives reflect that of Christ.. by depending on Him to work in and through us, to give us new hearts/minds/characters or are we standing relying on ourselves.

The investigative judgment is more so for the rest of God's unfallen creation, to vindicate God and His choice to allow "us/believers" into the Kingdom of God. But it serves it's purpose also so we do not become presumptuous of His Grace.

[robkelly100]

But the whole concept of IJ doctrine is created by false prophecy, and when you follow false prophecy, that opens the door to all kinds of heresy, such as Jesus being Michael, which is not even believed by all SDA, and so forth. IJ is a heresy of the EGW/Millerite movement spread by the SDA and JW church. by the way, its strange how even SDA that don't accept the doctrine of Michael as Jesus still regard EGW as a prophet. (correct me if I'm wrong)

[sleanos]

"But the whole concept of IJ doctrine is created by false prophecy, "

No it isn't. You only this it is. It was based in part by a MISUNDERSTANDING of prophecy by William Miller. The Disciples made the SAME mistake when Jesus came the 1st time.

[sleanos]

Many thought He was coming as a victorious King to rule in Israel instead of understanding that the prophecies pointed to His death on the cross 1st. Does this mean the disciples r false prophets cuz they understood the true meaning of the prophecies only AFTER the resurrection of Christ?

[sleanos]

"Jesus being Michael"

The only issue here is really what do you beleive about Michael. IF u believe Michael is just another created angel, then yes it IS heretical to believe Jesus and Michael are one. (As JW do) BUT if u believe Michael is just another prophetic title for Jesus pre-incarnate and they are one, remember Jesus is referred quite often as the "Angel of the Lord" in the Old Testament and parts of the new, then there is no problem so long as we realize Jesus if God in the Flesh.

[sleanos]

"its strange how even SDA that don't accept the doctrine of Michael as Jesus still regard EGW as a prophet. (correct me if I'm wrong)"

Why is this strange? I can rattle off names of Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, etc who don't fully understand or believe in what their own faiths teach doctrinally. We need to keep turning to the Word for truth and Light and the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth. Sounds like you just have a personal & biased beef against Seventh-day Adventists to me.

[Lysimachus78]

@robkelly100,

The Bible can also make things sound like Christ's Sacrifice is "not enough":

"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole [duty] of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether [it be evil." (Ecc 12:13,14)

[robkelly100]

If you think that the grace of God is not sufficient, then it is impossible to rely on Christ alone for salvation. Faith in Christ is the roots of the tree and the works are the fruit. You cannot have works acceptable to God without faith, and works prove your faith. They go hand in hand. But do not presume that you can earn salvation. It is a gift from God. No one is worthy of salvation, not by your works. Only faith in Christ pleases God.

[sleanos]

You say NOTHING here that the Seventh-day Adventist church does not already believe and had you done your research you would know this. On this premise alone, salvation by Grace through faith alone God producing good works in and through us as we surrender ourselves to Him daily is why the Evangelical world considers us fully Christian despite minor disagreements on some doctrine.

[robkelly100]

wonderful. I am not attacking anything but IJ. It is my belief that the prophecy in Daniel is being misinterpreted by this teacher.

[sleanos]

Please note, that a living faith connected to Jesus, will produce OBEDIENCE to Him and all His Commandments... we may fall, but ask for forgiveness and continue on forward in your Christian faith.

[robkelly100]

we are in agreement on this sir.

[sleanos]

Excellent, then the only points of centention seem to be on the doctrine of the IJ which really doesn't impact ones views of salvation. Abide in Christ daily... no worries and no condemnation on the day of judgment.

[belugafishgod]

Thanks .....that sheds a little light.  : )

[sleanos]

Anytime :)

[belugafishgod]

What works? What exactly is these "works"?? What would show the angels and God that we follow Him in heart and spirit. What from our lives is what the angels and God will see that will testify that we are children of God? What exactly are these "works"?? I know there must be something scripturally but I just don't know. Thanks.

[sleanos]

The works are all the things Jesus commands of us. God's spirit enables us to obey Him more and more fully day by day as we ask to be filled with His spirit. Evidence of leading a spirit filled life are the fruits of the spirit and obedience to our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ.

[sleanos]

Amen.

[Adeda17]

its not true what he says.. no hell.... rev:18:8... rev:20:10 rev 20:14-15.

2 Thessalonians chapter 8.

Hebrews 10:27 ( 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God)...2 Peter 3:7.....Revelation 14:10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

you cannot say hell doesnt exist!

[sleanos]

Read your bible more closely. Hell is NOT A PLACE burning right now. Hellfire is an event reserved for the day of judgment AFTER the second coming of Christ similar to Sodom & Gmorah. Read the book of Jude. It states that Sodom & Gmorrah is AN EXAMPLE of hellfire. It is a one time event for the wicked before they are completely consumed forever, not an eternal place of burning and tormet and torture as many of you believe. That would just be SADISTIC.

[LiquidSmooth]

It isn't sadistic. God offered Jesus Christ so people wouldn't perish, but have everlasting life.

Hell is a place of eternal seperation from God. What could be worse than eternal seperation from God? That is why it will cause such a burning. And if it wasn't eternal seperation from God, it wouldn't be hell.

People can have an everlasting life with God, or everlasting death with Satan. If you live a lie, you lie about living and are therefore dead. The DEAD know not the Lord.

[sleanos]

WOW! .. What are the wages of sin? It is DEATH! Not eternal seperation/living in Hell with satan in control.

God says at His Second coming, ALL things will be made new... and sin will NEVER rise up again. Sin will not exists anymore and nothing defiling will be in His universe. If Hell burns forever and that is where sin and sinners and the devil goes, then you have the existence of sin even after God makes all things new. You have a contradiction based on your understanding of the Bible.

[sleanos]

The gift of God is EVERLASTING LIFE in Christ Jesus. The judgement/punsihment for the wicked is everlasting DEATH - wages of sin is death. Not everlasting weeping/nashing teeth and torment. They will suffer for the "works" of their life since they rejected saving Grace, but it is on judgment day, each will get according to their works (Words of Jesus), and then they will be know more, some burning more than others, with satan burning the longest. Then they will be ashes under our feet.

[LiquidSmooth]

He doesn't say there is no Hell, just not an eternal Hell.

Which I disagree with.

To me, biblical language uses words as fire to try and illustrate what is going on in Hell. But I believe it will be a fire and a burning that go beyond what most people comprehend.

Hell is eternal seperation from God. You are seperated from the spirit of Love and Goodness and Truth for all eternity and if it wasn't eternal, it wouldn't be Hell.

Hell will be a place of madness, evil, and hate.

[sleanos]

You can try to play semantics with the words of the Bible all you want to. This is why the stories of the Bible are recorded as well. To illustrate many biblical statements.

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

[sleanos]

Sodom & Gmorrah suffered vengeance of ETERNAL FIRE also. Is the fire still burning today? No. It was turned to ashes. The effect of the unquenchable fire (could not be put out by anyone) is what is eternal. The town suffered & then perished. All will be raised of course on the day of judgment & will give account to God in that day and those without Christ will suffer for their sins, according to what they've done. Sodom & Gomorrah is a small picture of the day of judgment.

[LiquidSmooth]

In the story of Lazarus, i recall one man being in Hell and not bein dead

We are beings that were created to have a relationship with God. But we also have free will.

Death is not simply ceasing to exist. If you believe that, then you also fail to fully embrace what true life is.

God is life. So to be cast into hell is to be cast into eternal seperation from God. That is what true hell is. That is what true death is. And it will cause a burning and a thirst. But God wont be there

[sleanos]

Your spiritualizing the truth away waaaay too much. Ask any atheist/skeptic/unbeliever if they feel they are in hell. Many will tell you they lead happy productive fulfilled lives. Most just don't know what they are missing serving God until they go through tough times.

True death is simply ceasing to exist. The gift God gives the redeemed is ETERNAL LIFE. The wicked recieve their punishment JUSTLY according to their works and then cease to exist. They DIE, Caput, live no more.

[sleanos]

The story you were referring to is allegorical. It is NOT meant to be taken literally, but has a point to. Compare that to the COUNTLESS scriptures through the Old and New Testament that say the wicked will be punished and then will be no more, ashes, dead, cease to exist after being punished for their own wickedness.

[Lysimachus78]

It's really really sad to see Christians around the globe so heavily influenced by pagan Greek and Roman mythology, especially popularized by Plato who infiltriated the Church that the dead are not really dead, and spirits split from the body as some consciencious living entity. When will the Christian world wake up and realize that the dead are as dead as dead can be until the resurrection? To believe the dead are not dead will cause us to be deceived when Satan appears as an angel of light!

[deborahbetty58]

Thank you bro. This very important explanation concerning the Everlasting Gospel of Christ lifts up the heart and gives hope in our dark these dark time of human history and politics. Yah Bless, Love & Mercy in His Righteousness always

[alkoy2001]

Very good Brother - "Amazing Facts" - Jesus is amazing. 2300 day prophecy "The Investigative Judgment".

[cornerstone111]

There is nothing biblical about 1844, and I have lost a lot of respect for Doug for trying to explain it. It has been known by top theologians and scholars in the church for over the last 100 years that it is not biblical.

[sleanos]

We (Seventh-day Adventist Church) respectfully disagree with you and the rest of the so-called "top theoligians". What explanation can you give for the 2300 day prophecy given in Danial? Or the prophetic meanings in the sanctuary service and the Jewish Sabbath feasts. They all tie in together. Of ALL the explanations, and I've heard quite a bit of them from various denominations, the SDA take on this topic is the only one that makes full sense biblicly.