@scrappydew42 I'm assuming you mean that while it may have been mythologized over the years it is based on actual events and people. I won't argue that fact with you as I've never studied much concerning the historical validity of the players in the bible. Although, my first thought is that there is very little if any proof outside of the bible for most of it's stories/players. Maybe if the bible was a musical...
I may be understanding your position more now, though. Maybe.
Excellent video. I will say, though, that I engage people of all beliefs in conversation, often for no other reason than simple curiosity about what they believe.
@Friendough And that is a worthy cause and a great practice. I also will engage anyone in a civil discussion concerning nearly any topic. If I don't know what I'm talking about, I go and read about it and come up with an informed opinion lest I get my ass handed to me when I start the discussion. There are a great many things that I don't know or understand that I'm willing to learn about, so I love discussions on nearly any topic as long as they are presented w/ civility and respect.
Apologists know that their belief has killed raped tortured and murdered, that's why they're apologizing. If they truly believed that god's morality was absolute and correct, they wouldn't feel the need to justify it.
@TheCraich I completely agree. I've said it before (somewhere) but I honestly believe that apologists of the xtian faith are simply trying to return things to the dark ages in more way than one. Specifically, they are trying to set a standard of "understanding" of their faith that the layman cannot hope to argue against. In reality, they are simply saying "I believe and that's all there is to it" with a couple thousand extra words thrown in to confuse and confound. eg. anything by Willy Craig.
@XandarsMeteor I think it's time to change the word apologist to denialist because they aren't really apologizing, they are denying the valid points against their religion. Willy C denies that there are any contradictions in the bible. He doesn't say "Yes, there are obviously contradictions but we believe in the spirit of the gospel, not the letter." That would at least be reasonable.
(If you haven't seen it, check out Willy C on Ali G, hilarious!)
@TheCraich Considering "apologetics" is supposed to be arguing via reason, I think you are right. Perhaps a new word should be formed that includes their willful ignorance, denial, and lack of reason.
I'll go check out Ali G and Willy...I'm sure it will be a riot. :)
exactly! and as for more abrasive methods on youtube:i suspect that theists have a hard time since their ideology is very feeling based?well,that's a very abbreviated sentence for a line of thought i have on this subject.i think that the more generous arguements theist MIGHT entertain here will be from deconverts, not so much those who never WERE theists.sorry...been away all weekend.lots of family stuff...
@practicalmagic9 I was wondering where you were. :) I forget people have lives sometimes.
I agree with your points. Those that once were believers do have a special connection of sorts. So much of religion is ego-based and due to that fact, we have to remember that even if we are attacking the ideas, many theists will take that as mockery of their person since, as you said, their ideology is very feeling-based. Being able to be humble about having been wrong removes the "edge" sometimes.
@XandarsMeteor haha!yeah, life's like that (to quote a good song!) yep.funny how theism is at once very egocentric AND self sacrificing, isn't it?but then, if we weren't busy chasing our tails, organized religion wouldn't be able to bamboozle as many of us i suppose :D.i hope to be more present here but we will have to see!gotta keep the home fires burnin' too!
@practicalmagic9 Fitting that you mention being here more often just as I disappear for a couple of days. :) I guess I have a decent excuse with getting ready to move. :)
Religion is certainly egocentric as it's all about the "personal relationship" with a god and then someone else has their "personal relationship" that conflicts and suddenly you don't have any religion other than the "personal relationship" which doesn't make much money for anyone, so you get watered down gods. Sigh...
@lilimax555 It's always interesting to me to watch the bigger debates (Craig vs Hitchens/Harris/etc) because you can tell that Craig isn't really listening to the arguments, just listening for something one of his already-scripted replies will fit. Talk about letting it flow.
"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus."
@h8red42 I need to add his writings to my reading list. Not like there is enough there already, but I'll get through what I have someday so I might as well keep adding.
Great quote and I agree, there is a lot to learn from him.
Thanks for the recommendation of the Philhellenes video. I'll give it a look-see right away, as I rather admire his work ( especially "How Science Saved My Soul") .
@Jaybird196 I don't want to sell Phil short and I'm sure he will outdo himself, but I really think that video is his best so far and not only because everyone thinks so. That being said, though, watch?v=_sxh_L1LUNk is still my favorite.
I think the problem comes from spending so much time in the trenches, you get tired of hearing the same old arguments from theists, and you get short with them. You've explained why argument X is wrong so many times that it becomes hard to sit through yet another conversation about argument X, and so it becomes easier to just mock the opposition. We forget that theists don't read Dawkins, and others and are weekly brainwashed.
@Dudeatheist Try explaining Geology or Evolution to a Creatard. They don't understand the difference between a fact and theory. This is not about gods or devils or morals or voodoo, it is about science and thing we can see and study. These ID-iots don't even understand Logic.>> ''You can't prove there is no God''
its not a matter of them not being able to understand, its a matter of deep rooted ideology and a complete unwillingness to challenge their faith. Simply put a theist would rather find an illogical argument that supports their beliefs than accept a logical one that hurts it.
@gregrutz Like Dudeatheist said in his reply, it's not that they don't or can't understand it (they aren't all intellectual morons), it's just that when they hear things against their indoctrination and beliefs, they can't rationally reply or accept it due to that deep-seeded conviction that what they were taught is "right."
We see it as "science" vs "faith" but they see it as "god" vs "the devil." Breaking past that first hurdle is necessary to get to the actual heart of the matter.
@XandarsMeteor That is one of the problems with Richard Dawkins, he fits right into their plans to promote Atheist VS God's Word when talking abour Evolution . It is really scinece vs bible stories. Science won.
@indignant99 Thanks. It's one of those words/phrases you say out loud way too many times and when you have to write it down, you screw it all up. Luckily, the "embarrassment" of being called out burns the correct words into my brain more often than not, so I'll expect you to keep me on task if I ever type it again. ;)
@Dudeatheist I get that. After a certain point, most people get exasperated with going through the same rigmarole and turn to snarky replies and ridicule. I tend to get defensive very easily because I usually know how my family is going to react before they do. So when I get defensive, they assume some sort of guilt, but really it's just me being prepared for their reactions and arguments.
More atheists read the bible than theists read Dawkins, me thinks. Like you said, good to remember that.
@Dudeatheist Of course they don't, it's akin to actually trying to figure out why you do the things you do. Introspective self-discovery is not "fun." Sort of like my other videos...it hurts a lot sometimes and why would I want to do it more unless I was trying to seek answers to who I am and why I am that way. Religion is what many people make their "core" and to disrupt that core is life-shaking and uncomfortable.
true, its easier to maintain the status quo. I'm not a fan of the status quo, maybe because I suffer from depression, I always figure I have something to fix. Making positives out of negatives.
@Dudeatheist Is that why I'm a "Fixer?" Depression? Hmm...interesting thought...and there goes my mind for the day. More self-discovery.
To borrow from BionicDance, the status quo is just operating on automatic and not thinking for yourself. Nothing wrong with being a part of society, but just going along because it's easier or thoughtless is when the damage occurs.
@Dudeatheist It makes at least some sense. If I'm depressed and feel as though I'm broken, I project that need to fix myself onto those around me and when you factor in the empathy I have for others, you get a "fixer" that is trying to heal themselves by healing others. Starting to make more sense now...
its also a very male attribute, especially for guys like us who are emphatic. I was always trying to fix my ex, try to find a solution for her problems, when she often just wanted to rant, and I was happy to provide an ear.
@Dudeatheist Oh yeah, SO prevalent in my relationships. I sought out the ones with the daddy complex, I think...then thought I could be that father figure and not a lover or a friend. Epic fail way too many times. I watched a video a long time ago (months) about how when most females want to talk, we don't have to have answers, just be there to listen. I failed at that part, either not wanting to listen or trying to fix their complaints. Learning, learning, learning...
With the ex I mentioned I tried to be pretty much all the above, but she really needed it, she didn't just have a daddy complex (was adopted as a teen by her pastor), she also had a hubby complex (her husband treated her like crap for 10 years then left her when she tried to stand up for herself). So I picked her up, built up her self esteem, and when hubby decided he wanted a family after all, she dropped me like a bad habit. Which created the new rule, finish the divorce first
@Dudeatheist I've been there as well...to a degree. Mostly it was "she was unhappily married, I was a support, she finished divorce, wanted more than I could give, we broke it off mutually." Sucked because she was really great, but both of us were searching a lot during that time period, so we were at least intelligent to realize that we needed to go our own ways before creating another disaster. Live and learn, I guess.
yeah it led to my new rule: no falling for married women. The key word being "falling". But I really didn't have much of a choice on this one, a girl I carried a torch for for 12 years suddenly starts showing an interest, I was defenseless.
@Dudeatheist Yup, went through similar on that one, too. Ha ha. The girl I talk about in Part 3 of my "Growing Up" series was still a part of my life for the next 17yrs or so. Sucked when she went through a divorce, wanted to be with me, but I couldn't promise to live a life in Ohio with her. Some things I'll do for love, others I can't. She just got remarried a month or so ago...hurt a bit.
I was so willing to do it all for her, but she was an incredible motivator for me. I was really beginning to get my butt in gear last year, but I'm only starting to get going again now.
@Dudeatheist When I first moved back to Ohio, I honestly thought I would be able to stand it and pursue this girl...we met about a month after I got back and we talked for a long time about everything. Finally, the topic of us came up and she told me that for her to think there was even a chance for us to try again, I'd have to promise that I could stay in Ohio and be happy. I didn't think I could, so I couldn't promise her what she wanted to hear from me. So, separate ways we went.
Yeah, its best to stop it in its tracks if there is any doubt. I was so confident about this girl that I even became a Christian for her. Sure I still accepted evolution and had many issues with the bible, but I was willing to believe that Jesus and Yahweh were real. Of course once she dropped me for her sperm donor (after 10 years that was really all he had amounted to), and to save face at church, I came back with a vengeance.
In a serious discussion ridicule should be used only a last resort, I agree. But I think that it serves also other purposes. 1. Pwnage videos are mostly directed not towards the pwned person but towards atheists, to strenghten their non-belief in a more lightly hearted manner. I call it useful comedy. 2. I watch videos that ridicule my opinions (if their are well made). Not because I strive to be convinced by the arguments, but to learn to not take myself so seriously. Ridicule and mockery FTW!
@adecadentsong I completely agree with you. Pwnage vids are excellent as they generally attack those that have already proven they are unwilling to listen to logic and evidence. Plus, like you said, they are funny as shit! I also watch the "other side's" vids to see if I missed something. It's all about knowing their arguments and increasing my own knowledge on the topics.
Maybe I've been going about things the wrong way. I go straight to ridicule and mockery. It may not work, but it makes me feel better... Especially when I'm tearing into an adult who likes Justina Bieber.... That's oh so much fun. lol
@BitterCanuck One of the dangers of that tactic, imho, is the "I think he doth protest too much" response many theists will give back. Regardless of the truth or inaccuracy of that attitude from the theists, it doesn't do any good if they simply see someone "hostile" towards their beliefs and use it as justification that they are right. Remember the bible told the xtians that they would be mocked and persecuted...it's a badge of honor to be treated as such by many believers.
@shark15 A good question, and I'll say that it can be, but isn't always. Just like giving the evidence of evolution to a xtian: if they don't accept it, what is left other than to just laugh?
its just too difficult for me not to explode into laughter when theists particularly creationists assert their absurd beliefs and how distorted their version of science was. And when you point and laugh at them, even if its not intentional, it actually becomes the first resort rather than the last resort.
If Shock is unwilling to accept generalization he shouldn't participate in it's formation. He's one of those sad, sorry-ass folks who can give it, but not take it.
@Jaybird196 I saw your edit above and agree. If you haven't seen it, go over to philhellenes' page or over to finlarg's page (finlarg reuploaded the old phil video) and watch phil's take on why Jack may not be able to take the ridicule.
@Lynchpinn101 I thought it was from Homer's Iliad...you learn something new every day. ;)
On a serious-ish note, I wasn't so sure about that part and figured it just might undo a few of the thumbs up I might have received on this one. So far (#30 - Top Rated (Today) - Nonprofits & Activism) I think I'm doing alright.
@lilimax555 True, although mockery can lead some people to start that "closet questioning". Then after some time, it becomes possible to change their mind if they acknowledge that things aren't adding up.
@jonbob0008 There is that as well. It just depends on the individual which is why I think the mockery route isn't the best to start most conversations with...but if it starts the questioning, go for it.
@XandarsMeteor No no, I agree with you that mockery should be saved for when it becomes obvious that the person you're talking to isn't interested in intellectual conversation. I was just adding onto what the other comment said.
@jonbob0008 Then I agree with your statements even more. :) Mockery IS a weapon, but knowing when to use it is the key, I think. Like you said, when they have closed down their minds to the evidence at hand, it's time to point, laugh, and let them know that they are being foolish.
@lilimax555 I agree. Thunderf00t's "Why Do People Laugh At Creationists" and TheLivingDinosaur's "Holy Hallucinations" series are perfect examples of where mockery and ridicule are completely justified, and it was some of the mockery and ridicule that got me questioning more and more the things I believed. So, yeah, had I not already been questioning, it might not have been effective, but I was, so it did. :)
@lilimax555 I agree and maybe "Changing Someone's Mind" is a completely different topic. Maybe I should have said, more clearly, that when it is obvious they aren't actually questioning (openly or closet-ly), it's time to turn on the sarcasm and mockery. Most "big" YT theists are at this point already, so jumping straight to the mockery and ridicule is all that is left.
After watching togetherforpeace's video, I'm even more shocked at this comparison. To lump together the mere ridicule of an idea in with the want of discriminating against someone just for being born is not something I could respect from anyone who can't logically discern the two actions. I seriously don't think it's the atheists who need more tact here.
@Sloth7d Pretty amazing, huh? That was a point I was trying to make that I forgot to put in the video. Racism is a choice, being born wasn't.
Jack, along with CockOfShite, ppsimmons, VFX, et al, have proven that they are not open to the evidence and logic of atheists and would rather block or censor on their channels than enter into an honest debate. For them, all that is left to do is point and laugh. So, yeah, not saying atheists should use more tact w/ them, just maybe elsewhere first.
Use of mockery is all about context. Depending on the person, sometimes it is something that should be used right away. And I don't mean scornful mockery, but satiring a ridiculous belief like Eddie Izzard and NSC is a good way to break down barriers and break the ice if you're funny; hence context. There are no rules. Use whatever works for you.
@Sloth7d That's a great point. So many out there have adopted a satirical version of mockery that fits for their purposes (ex comedic relief). It's as someone said above, sometimes a person has just "had it" with the arguments of the other side or the unwillingness to see reason by the other side and at that point ridicule and mockery is all that is left.
True, there are no rules, but I guess I'm just encouraging people out there to give the other side a chance before resorting to mockery.
I agree mockery should not be used as a first resort because it is one f the most powerful tools in our arsenal. When someone is so brainwashed that they refuse to examine the mountains of evidence, it is time to mock them. At that point they deserve it. It cuts right through the sophistry and bullshit and stabs them right in their ego. Right where it counts.
@bamboo4tameshigiri It took me a few days to get to that conclusion. I started with "No, mockery isn't helpful," and then moved to "Well, sometimes...but when?" and finally came to the stated position (which matches your comment) of: If the evidence is ignored and all is left is an appeal to emotion, it's time to point, laugh, and mock because, as you said, it cuts to the core. No one ever made fun of me for believing, but had they, I might have deconverted earlier. Who knows?
@Lawlessuk Ha ha ha! Poor Jack. I'm sure he has his supporters to he doesn't feel completely horrible about what he's saying, but sometimes I do feel bad for some of the YouTubers that get smacked around so much by so many others. I try VERY hard not to say anything stupid around here so I don't have to worry about that sort of reaction.
IRe: bugs. I've been taking so many pictures of them recently and sending them off to sofiarune. I ignored them until recently now can't stop! :)
the anwser to yourbasic question easy All scripture is myth, but that doesn't mean its false
scrappydew42 5 months ago
@scrappydew42 I'm assuming you mean that while it may have been mythologized over the years it is based on actual events and people. I won't argue that fact with you as I've never studied much concerning the historical validity of the players in the bible. Although, my first thought is that there is very little if any proof outside of the bible for most of it's stories/players. Maybe if the bible was a musical...
I may be understanding your position more now, though. Maybe.
XandarsMeteor 5 months ago
another epic togetherforpeace fail.
BillKiernan 5 months ago
@BillKiernan Seems to happen rather often.
XandarsMeteor 5 months ago
Excellent video. I will say, though, that I engage people of all beliefs in conversation, often for no other reason than simple curiosity about what they believe.
Friendough 5 months ago
@Friendough And that is a worthy cause and a great practice. I also will engage anyone in a civil discussion concerning nearly any topic. If I don't know what I'm talking about, I go and read about it and come up with an informed opinion lest I get my ass handed to me when I start the discussion. There are a great many things that I don't know or understand that I'm willing to learn about, so I love discussions on nearly any topic as long as they are presented w/ civility and respect.
XandarsMeteor 5 months ago
Apologists know that their belief has killed raped tortured and murdered, that's why they're apologizing. If they truly believed that god's morality was absolute and correct, they wouldn't feel the need to justify it.
TheCraich 5 months ago
@TheCraich I completely agree. I've said it before (somewhere) but I honestly believe that apologists of the xtian faith are simply trying to return things to the dark ages in more way than one. Specifically, they are trying to set a standard of "understanding" of their faith that the layman cannot hope to argue against. In reality, they are simply saying "I believe and that's all there is to it" with a couple thousand extra words thrown in to confuse and confound. eg. anything by Willy Craig.
XandarsMeteor 5 months ago
@XandarsMeteor I think it's time to change the word apologist to denialist because they aren't really apologizing, they are denying the valid points against their religion. Willy C denies that there are any contradictions in the bible. He doesn't say "Yes, there are obviously contradictions but we believe in the spirit of the gospel, not the letter." That would at least be reasonable.
(If you haven't seen it, check out Willy C on Ali G, hilarious!)
Love your stuff, you deserve more subs.
TheCraich 5 months ago
@TheCraich Considering "apologetics" is supposed to be arguing via reason, I think you are right. Perhaps a new word should be formed that includes their willful ignorance, denial, and lack of reason.
I'll go check out Ali G and Willy...I'm sure it will be a riot. :)
XandarsMeteor 5 months ago
Your pwnage is strong, young jedi.
bobsmeerfak 5 months ago
@bobsmeerfak Thank you, Master. :)
I hadn't actually meant to take the tone I ended with...but I sort of like it. Ha ha ha!
XandarsMeteor 5 months ago
5:55-6:00
exactly! and as for more abrasive methods on youtube:i suspect that theists have a hard time since their ideology is very feeling based?well,that's a very abbreviated sentence for a line of thought i have on this subject.i think that the more generous arguements theist MIGHT entertain here will be from deconverts, not so much those who never WERE theists.sorry...been away all weekend.lots of family stuff...
practicalmagic9 5 months ago
@practicalmagic9 I was wondering where you were. :) I forget people have lives sometimes.
I agree with your points. Those that once were believers do have a special connection of sorts. So much of religion is ego-based and due to that fact, we have to remember that even if we are attacking the ideas, many theists will take that as mockery of their person since, as you said, their ideology is very feeling-based. Being able to be humble about having been wrong removes the "edge" sometimes.
XandarsMeteor 5 months ago
@XandarsMeteor haha!yeah, life's like that (to quote a good song!) yep.funny how theism is at once very egocentric AND self sacrificing, isn't it?but then, if we weren't busy chasing our tails, organized religion wouldn't be able to bamboozle as many of us i suppose :D.i hope to be more present here but we will have to see!gotta keep the home fires burnin' too!
practicalmagic9 5 months ago
@practicalmagic9 Fitting that you mention being here more often just as I disappear for a couple of days. :) I guess I have a decent excuse with getting ready to move. :)
Religion is certainly egocentric as it's all about the "personal relationship" with a god and then someone else has their "personal relationship" that conflicts and suddenly you don't have any religion other than the "personal relationship" which doesn't make much money for anyone, so you get watered down gods. Sigh...
XandarsMeteor 5 months ago
But the word was listening.
lilimax555 5 months ago
Listing works ...
lilimax555 5 months ago
I agree,when foolishness flows.....you have to dam it back with mockery and ridicule.....or swim. Although, while flowing ...no one is listing .:)
lilimax555 5 months ago
@lilimax555 It's always interesting to me to watch the bigger debates (Craig vs Hitchens/Harris/etc) because you can tell that Craig isn't really listening to the arguments, just listening for something one of his already-scripted replies will fit. Talk about letting it flow.
XandarsMeteor 5 months ago
"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus."
Thomas Jefferson
We could learn a lot from that man.
h8red42 5 months ago
@h8red42 I need to add his writings to my reading list. Not like there is enough there already, but I'll get through what I have someday so I might as well keep adding.
Great quote and I agree, there is a lot to learn from him.
XandarsMeteor 5 months ago
Nice music :) Lol
KittyzKatterz 5 months ago
@KittyzKatterz Thanks! Which song did you like the most? Or did you like both? I don't get much feedback on my music choices so I'm wondering.
XandarsMeteor 5 months ago
@XandarsMeteor Hybrid "Disappear Here"
KittyzKatterz 5 months ago
@KittyzKatterz Love that song. :)
XandarsMeteor 5 months ago
Sorry, I meant TogetherforPeace, not Shock. I sometimes get them confused. I sure you'll understander, Xander.
Jaybird196 5 months ago
@Jaybird196 Birds of a feather. :)
XandarsMeteor 5 months ago
@XandarsMeteor LOL.
Thanks for the recommendation of the Philhellenes video. I'll give it a look-see right away, as I rather admire his work ( especially "How Science Saved My Soul") .
Jaybird196 5 months ago
@Jaybird196 I don't want to sell Phil short and I'm sure he will outdo himself, but I really think that video is his best so far and not only because everyone thinks so. That being said, though, watch?v=_sxh_L1LUNk is still my favorite.
XandarsMeteor 5 months ago
I think the problem comes from spending so much time in the trenches, you get tired of hearing the same old arguments from theists, and you get short with them. You've explained why argument X is wrong so many times that it becomes hard to sit through yet another conversation about argument X, and so it becomes easier to just mock the opposition. We forget that theists don't read Dawkins, and others and are weekly brainwashed.
Dudeatheist 5 months ago
@Dudeatheist Try explaining Geology or Evolution to a Creatard. They don't understand the difference between a fact and theory. This is not about gods or devils or morals or voodoo, it is about science and thing we can see and study. These ID-iots don't even understand Logic.>> ''You can't prove there is no God''
gregrutz 5 months ago
@gregrutz
its not a matter of them not being able to understand, its a matter of deep rooted ideology and a complete unwillingness to challenge their faith. Simply put a theist would rather find an illogical argument that supports their beliefs than accept a logical one that hurts it.
Dudeatheist 5 months ago
@gregrutz Like Dudeatheist said in his reply, it's not that they don't or can't understand it (they aren't all intellectual morons), it's just that when they hear things against their indoctrination and beliefs, they can't rationally reply or accept it due to that deep-seeded conviction that what they were taught is "right."
We see it as "science" vs "faith" but they see it as "god" vs "the devil." Breaking past that first hurdle is necessary to get to the actual heart of the matter.
XandarsMeteor 5 months ago
@XandarsMeteor That is one of the problems with Richard Dawkins, he fits right into their plans to promote Atheist VS God's Word when talking abour Evolution . It is really scinece vs bible stories. Science won.
gregrutz 5 months ago
@gregrutz Which is when the heads go into the sand. :/
XandarsMeteor 5 months ago
@XandarsMeteor deep-seated.
indignant99 5 months ago
@indignant99 Thanks. It's one of those words/phrases you say out loud way too many times and when you have to write it down, you screw it all up. Luckily, the "embarrassment" of being called out burns the correct words into my brain more often than not, so I'll expect you to keep me on task if I ever type it again. ;)
XandarsMeteor 5 months ago
@Dudeatheist I get that. After a certain point, most people get exasperated with going through the same rigmarole and turn to snarky replies and ridicule. I tend to get defensive very easily because I usually know how my family is going to react before they do. So when I get defensive, they assume some sort of guilt, but really it's just me being prepared for their reactions and arguments.
More atheists read the bible than theists read Dawkins, me thinks. Like you said, good to remember that.
XandarsMeteor 5 months ago
@XandarsMeteor
Its always so infuriating when I respond to a friend or family member's facebook post about god, and get the "I don't want to discuss this"
Dudeatheist 5 months ago
@Dudeatheist Of course they don't, it's akin to actually trying to figure out why you do the things you do. Introspective self-discovery is not "fun." Sort of like my other videos...it hurts a lot sometimes and why would I want to do it more unless I was trying to seek answers to who I am and why I am that way. Religion is what many people make their "core" and to disrupt that core is life-shaking and uncomfortable.
XandarsMeteor 5 months ago
@XandarsMeteor
true, its easier to maintain the status quo. I'm not a fan of the status quo, maybe because I suffer from depression, I always figure I have something to fix. Making positives out of negatives.
Dudeatheist 5 months ago
@Dudeatheist Is that why I'm a "Fixer?" Depression? Hmm...interesting thought...and there goes my mind for the day. More self-discovery.
To borrow from BionicDance, the status quo is just operating on automatic and not thinking for yourself. Nothing wrong with being a part of society, but just going along because it's easier or thoughtless is when the damage occurs.
XandarsMeteor 5 months ago
@XandarsMeteor
I don't know but the thought occurred to me as I was writing.
Dudeatheist 5 months ago
@Dudeatheist It makes at least some sense. If I'm depressed and feel as though I'm broken, I project that need to fix myself onto those around me and when you factor in the empathy I have for others, you get a "fixer" that is trying to heal themselves by healing others. Starting to make more sense now...
XandarsMeteor 5 months ago
@XandarsMeteor
its also a very male attribute, especially for guys like us who are emphatic. I was always trying to fix my ex, try to find a solution for her problems, when she often just wanted to rant, and I was happy to provide an ear.
Dudeatheist 5 months ago
@Dudeatheist Oh yeah, SO prevalent in my relationships. I sought out the ones with the daddy complex, I think...then thought I could be that father figure and not a lover or a friend. Epic fail way too many times. I watched a video a long time ago (months) about how when most females want to talk, we don't have to have answers, just be there to listen. I failed at that part, either not wanting to listen or trying to fix their complaints. Learning, learning, learning...
XandarsMeteor 5 months ago
@XandarsMeteor
With the ex I mentioned I tried to be pretty much all the above, but she really needed it, she didn't just have a daddy complex (was adopted as a teen by her pastor), she also had a hubby complex (her husband treated her like crap for 10 years then left her when she tried to stand up for herself). So I picked her up, built up her self esteem, and when hubby decided he wanted a family after all, she dropped me like a bad habit. Which created the new rule, finish the divorce first
Dudeatheist 5 months ago
@Dudeatheist I've been there as well...to a degree. Mostly it was "she was unhappily married, I was a support, she finished divorce, wanted more than I could give, we broke it off mutually." Sucked because she was really great, but both of us were searching a lot during that time period, so we were at least intelligent to realize that we needed to go our own ways before creating another disaster. Live and learn, I guess.
XandarsMeteor 5 months ago
@XandarsMeteor
yeah it led to my new rule: no falling for married women. The key word being "falling". But I really didn't have much of a choice on this one, a girl I carried a torch for for 12 years suddenly starts showing an interest, I was defenseless.
Dudeatheist 5 months ago
@Dudeatheist Yup, went through similar on that one, too. Ha ha. The girl I talk about in Part 3 of my "Growing Up" series was still a part of my life for the next 17yrs or so. Sucked when she went through a divorce, wanted to be with me, but I couldn't promise to live a life in Ohio with her. Some things I'll do for love, others I can't. She just got remarried a month or so ago...hurt a bit.
XandarsMeteor 5 months ago
@XandarsMeteor
I was so willing to do it all for her, but she was an incredible motivator for me. I was really beginning to get my butt in gear last year, but I'm only starting to get going again now.
Dudeatheist 5 months ago
@Dudeatheist When I first moved back to Ohio, I honestly thought I would be able to stand it and pursue this girl...we met about a month after I got back and we talked for a long time about everything. Finally, the topic of us came up and she told me that for her to think there was even a chance for us to try again, I'd have to promise that I could stay in Ohio and be happy. I didn't think I could, so I couldn't promise her what she wanted to hear from me. So, separate ways we went.
XandarsMeteor 5 months ago
@XandarsMeteor
Yeah, its best to stop it in its tracks if there is any doubt. I was so confident about this girl that I even became a Christian for her. Sure I still accepted evolution and had many issues with the bible, but I was willing to believe that Jesus and Yahweh were real. Of course once she dropped me for her sperm donor (after 10 years that was really all he had amounted to), and to save face at church, I came back with a vengeance.
Dudeatheist 5 months ago
In a serious discussion ridicule should be used only a last resort, I agree. But I think that it serves also other purposes. 1. Pwnage videos are mostly directed not towards the pwned person but towards atheists, to strenghten their non-belief in a more lightly hearted manner. I call it useful comedy. 2. I watch videos that ridicule my opinions (if their are well made). Not because I strive to be convinced by the arguments, but to learn to not take myself so seriously. Ridicule and mockery FTW!
adecadentsong 5 months ago
@adecadentsong I completely agree with you. Pwnage vids are excellent as they generally attack those that have already proven they are unwilling to listen to logic and evidence. Plus, like you said, they are funny as shit! I also watch the "other side's" vids to see if I missed something. It's all about knowing their arguments and increasing my own knowledge on the topics.
FTW! :)
(I owe you a reply...it will be tonight.)
XandarsMeteor 5 months ago
Maybe I've been going about things the wrong way. I go straight to ridicule and mockery. It may not work, but it makes me feel better... Especially when I'm tearing into an adult who likes Justina Bieber.... That's oh so much fun. lol
BitterCanuck 5 months ago
@BitterCanuck One of the dangers of that tactic, imho, is the "I think he doth protest too much" response many theists will give back. Regardless of the truth or inaccuracy of that attitude from the theists, it doesn't do any good if they simply see someone "hostile" towards their beliefs and use it as justification that they are right. Remember the bible told the xtians that they would be mocked and persecuted...it's a badge of honor to be treated as such by many believers.
XandarsMeteor 5 months ago
The real question is "does mockery and ridicule make a difference?".
shark15 5 months ago
@shark15 A good question, and I'll say that it can be, but isn't always. Just like giving the evidence of evolution to a xtian: if they don't accept it, what is left other than to just laugh?
XandarsMeteor 5 months ago
its just too difficult for me not to explode into laughter when theists particularly creationists assert their absurd beliefs and how distorted their version of science was. And when you point and laugh at them, even if its not intentional, it actually becomes the first resort rather than the last resort.
emancoy 5 months ago
@emancoy When you can't help it, you can't help it. :)
XandarsMeteor 5 months ago
If Shock is unwilling to accept generalization he shouldn't participate in it's formation. He's one of those sad, sorry-ass folks who can give it, but not take it.
Jaybird196 5 months ago
@Jaybird196 I saw your edit above and agree. If you haven't seen it, go over to philhellenes' page or over to finlarg's page (finlarg reuploaded the old phil video) and watch phil's take on why Jack may not be able to take the ridicule.
XandarsMeteor 5 months ago
I especially liked the "Shut the fuck up!" part, very poetic...Shakespeare isn't it?
Lynchpinn101 5 months ago
@Lynchpinn101 I thought it was from Homer's Iliad...you learn something new every day. ;)
On a serious-ish note, I wasn't so sure about that part and figured it just might undo a few of the thumbs up I might have received on this one. So far (#30 - Top Rated (Today) - Nonprofits & Activism) I think I'm doing alright.
XandarsMeteor 5 months ago 2
I don't think one is able to change anothers mind unless the other person has been "closet questioning" already .
lilimax555 5 months ago
@lilimax555 well said
Lynchpinn101 5 months ago
@lilimax555 True, although mockery can lead some people to start that "closet questioning". Then after some time, it becomes possible to change their mind if they acknowledge that things aren't adding up.
jonbob0008 5 months ago
@jonbob0008 There is that as well. It just depends on the individual which is why I think the mockery route isn't the best to start most conversations with...but if it starts the questioning, go for it.
XandarsMeteor 5 months ago
@XandarsMeteor No no, I agree with you that mockery should be saved for when it becomes obvious that the person you're talking to isn't interested in intellectual conversation. I was just adding onto what the other comment said.
jonbob0008 5 months ago
@jonbob0008 Then I agree with your statements even more. :) Mockery IS a weapon, but knowing when to use it is the key, I think. Like you said, when they have closed down their minds to the evidence at hand, it's time to point, laugh, and let them know that they are being foolish.
XandarsMeteor 5 months ago
@lilimax555 I agree. Thunderf00t's "Why Do People Laugh At Creationists" and TheLivingDinosaur's "Holy Hallucinations" series are perfect examples of where mockery and ridicule are completely justified, and it was some of the mockery and ridicule that got me questioning more and more the things I believed. So, yeah, had I not already been questioning, it might not have been effective, but I was, so it did. :)
XandarsMeteor 5 months ago
@lilimax555 I agree and maybe "Changing Someone's Mind" is a completely different topic. Maybe I should have said, more clearly, that when it is obvious they aren't actually questioning (openly or closet-ly), it's time to turn on the sarcasm and mockery. Most "big" YT theists are at this point already, so jumping straight to the mockery and ridicule is all that is left.
XandarsMeteor 5 months ago
After watching togetherforpeace's video, I'm even more shocked at this comparison. To lump together the mere ridicule of an idea in with the want of discriminating against someone just for being born is not something I could respect from anyone who can't logically discern the two actions. I seriously don't think it's the atheists who need more tact here.
Sloth7d 5 months ago
@Sloth7d Pretty amazing, huh? That was a point I was trying to make that I forgot to put in the video. Racism is a choice, being born wasn't.
Jack, along with CockOfShite, ppsimmons, VFX, et al, have proven that they are not open to the evidence and logic of atheists and would rather block or censor on their channels than enter into an honest debate. For them, all that is left to do is point and laugh. So, yeah, not saying atheists should use more tact w/ them, just maybe elsewhere first.
XandarsMeteor 5 months ago
terrific video.
phead80 5 months ago
@phead80 Thanks!
XandarsMeteor 5 months ago
Use of mockery is all about context. Depending on the person, sometimes it is something that should be used right away. And I don't mean scornful mockery, but satiring a ridiculous belief like Eddie Izzard and NSC is a good way to break down barriers and break the ice if you're funny; hence context. There are no rules. Use whatever works for you.
Sloth7d 5 months ago
@Sloth7d That's a great point. So many out there have adopted a satirical version of mockery that fits for their purposes (ex comedic relief). It's as someone said above, sometimes a person has just "had it" with the arguments of the other side or the unwillingness to see reason by the other side and at that point ridicule and mockery is all that is left.
True, there are no rules, but I guess I'm just encouraging people out there to give the other side a chance before resorting to mockery.
XandarsMeteor 5 months ago
I agree mockery should not be used as a first resort because it is one f the most powerful tools in our arsenal. When someone is so brainwashed that they refuse to examine the mountains of evidence, it is time to mock them. At that point they deserve it. It cuts right through the sophistry and bullshit and stabs them right in their ego. Right where it counts.
bamboo4tameshigiri 5 months ago 10
@bamboo4tameshigiri It took me a few days to get to that conclusion. I started with "No, mockery isn't helpful," and then moved to "Well, sometimes...but when?" and finally came to the stated position (which matches your comment) of: If the evidence is ignored and all is left is an appeal to emotion, it's time to point, laugh, and mock because, as you said, it cuts to the core. No one ever made fun of me for believing, but had they, I might have deconverted earlier. Who knows?
XandarsMeteor 5 months ago
im just happy you replied to my comment :D. i feel special now.
metalmaggot69 5 months ago
@metalmaggot69 Like I said, I'm here for you. lol
XandarsMeteor 5 months ago
i just felt the need to post a comment.
metalmaggot69 5 months ago
@metalmaggot69 Ha ha ha. I'm here for you, man, just let it out. :)
XandarsMeteor 5 months ago
ooh am I first?
Lawlessuk 5 months ago
@Lawlessuk You are. People appear to be very quiet tonight. Almost makes me wish I had waited until morning to upload this. Oh well. :)
XandarsMeteor 5 months ago
@XandarsMeteor It is quiet around yt tonight. I've resorted to filming bugs again.
I think I might start to use this channel more and put some videos up soon too. Getting bored.
Also, re your vid, I think Jack got his period. He even seems to have a stress rash. He just needs chocolate and time.
:-)
Lawlessuk 5 months ago
@Lawlessuk Ha ha ha! Poor Jack. I'm sure he has his supporters to he doesn't feel completely horrible about what he's saying, but sometimes I do feel bad for some of the YouTubers that get smacked around so much by so many others. I try VERY hard not to say anything stupid around here so I don't have to worry about that sort of reaction.
IRe: bugs. I've been taking so many pictures of them recently and sending them off to sofiarune. I ignored them until recently now can't stop! :)
XandarsMeteor 5 months ago
@XandarsMeteor "...so he doesn't." Just woke up from a way-too-late-to-take nap, forgive my typing blunders.
XandarsMeteor 5 months ago