RC Sproul Why Are Reformed Christians Influenced by Arminianism

[MrTruthSword]

When Jesus stated that He was amazed by the centurion’s faith, Matthew 8:10, how then can anyone say that in order for a man to have faith it must first be predestined by God? Do Calvinists think Jesus had a memory lapse and forgot that the man’s faith had been predestined? Why was Jesus so amazed by the man’s faith if it was predestined?

[StAugustine79]

Arminian theology is a form of reformation theology historically. Calvinism is not the only form of reformation theology. There was Lutheranism, Anabaptists, Sacramentarians, Calvinists, Wesleyans, Arminians.

[MrTruthSword]

@StAugustine79 Lutherans and Calvinists were the Reformers that practiced drowning Anabaptists. Since they felt that Anabaptists loved baptizing so much, it was their ironic way of demonstrating their displeasure with being disagreed with regarding infant Baptism. I don't esteem anyone except Jesus Christ and neither should you, and that's according to Paul.

All men are sinners. Martin Luther was a Jew hater and was quoted by Adolph Hitler. 

[StAugustine79]

Arminianism is not unbiblical. I totally respect Dr. Sproul, but here I disagree with him. For certainly Arminius was not adopting any "pagan" ideology. God is sovereign, but he granted human beings free will and there is no in scripture notion that grace is irresistable, as if God is compelling us against our will. "If we have died with him we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him. But if we deny him he will deny us." 2 Timothy 2:11-12

[biblebasics100]

What about the Holy Spirit- Has He not lead most believers into this doctrine!!!!!!! Or is it a matter of this that and the other that has influenced the believe. I rather chose to think it is the Spirit...

[brettcav]

I really can't believe the misapplication on Romans 9 here. His understanding seems to indicate that God saves individuals regardless of their will. The bigger context seems clear that Paul is talking to a Jewish audience who are having a hard time accepting the Gentile Believers. This is not an application of irresistable grace or unconditional election. In fact its broadening God's Sovereign election/calling to include the Gentiles ..you and me...."I will have mercy on whom I have mercy."

[MRKetter81]

@brettcav "Paul is talking to a Jewish audience"

Since when did the Jews live in Rome?

[brettcav]

@MRKetter81 Since the Diaspora. It shouldn't be a surprise that Jews were dispersed thoughout the Roman Empire....Paul himself was a Roman citizen born in Tarsus, which is in current day Turkey, Asia minor.

[MRKetter81]

@brettcav Hit letter is to the CHURCH in Rome; NOWHERE does he right he's speaking to ONLY JEWS!

[brettcav]

Of course. But you can't negate the Jewish audience from the discussion of the letter..and at times, Paul is directly talking to his Jewish audience. My original point is that RC Sproul was using Romans 9 to prove His Calvinist perspective. Yet Romans 9, in context, was Paul's proof that God is Sovereign to make decisions according to His will and purpose....that He has chosen to extend salvation to the Gentiles.."I will call them 'my people' who are not my people.." Ro 9:25 (Hos 2:23).

[mellamogoose]

@tango9jeff

I do agree that we sometimes focus too much over difference but the terms Calvinist/Armenian are terms use to easily describe your doctrinal foundation based on previous theologians that have thought likewise. These fundamental differences effect how you live your life not the ultimate factor regarding your eternal location.

@mrketter81

we are required to take a stand and no matter how correct you are, your words will fall to death unless binded by love.

[MRKetter81]

@mellamogoose I am bound in love to God and His truth. There for how can I put on the false modesty like you do? Certainly Christ called the Scribes and Pharisees brood of vipers, hypocrites, white washed tombs. Now tell me, how is it by lying and not calling out evil for what it is, do you honor God?

You are putting on an act which is not true.

[mellamogoose]

@MRKetter81 @MRKetter81 Yes you are correct Jesus in Matt12:34 calls the Pharisees "brood of vipers" in a context that they were blaspheming against the holy Spirit. So to a brother in Christ who you have not meet or talk more than what youtube allows through these responses your method to show the truth of His sovereignty is to be verbally hostile an offensive? Paul in Romans 9:3 mentioned he wished to be anathema for his brethren. Are you demonstrating this type of love while speaking truth?

[dandom01]

This guy, RC Sproul is believing in the doctrine of "Devils" like all Calvinists. Such twisted garbage (Calvinism) it had to be started by the Devil.(the great deceiver) This servants of Satan whenever someone speak against this doctrine of the Devils"Calvinism", they respond to you like you're an Arminian! even though most people read the bible and follow what the bible is saying not Arminius they think that people are not allowed to discern for themselves.Dumbing down uneducated people.

[storpas]

If man (including Christians) had a proper view of himself (a depraved "worm"), which are fallen humanistic nature doesn't allow for... If people really had a high view of God and His HOLINESS as the Bible teaches and the reformers upheld, there wouldn't be any argument and the scriptures would be understood as clearly as they speak! But man (Arminian) will deny what I just said...like I said catch 22 until God opens eyes and hearts! P.S. pursuing not pursueing... Correction from previous post.

[storpas]

It's a catch 22. Our sinfulness prevents us from realizing and acknowledging how sinful we really are until the Holy Spirit opens our eyes. Of course an Arminian (which I was because we all are by nature) will deny this, and if he says he truly understands his sinfulness, he wouldn't be an Arminian. God is LOVE because He, without any motivating factor except for His sovereign Love, chose to save many, THOUGH WE ALL DESERVE HELL!

[storpas]

Arminians don't like the God of the bible, so they create one that makes them comfortable. I use to do the same thing until I understood and acknowledged my (humanistic) sinfulness. Then I decided to honestly look at scripture and apply proper (historical/grammatical) hermeneutics along with truly studying church history. After MANY years of diligent study and prayer, pursueing the Truth (not my emotions) to wherever it lead me HONESTLY.

[physicist21]

I agree... many statements made by arminians today like "It's your hability to allow god save you...." or "make a desicion for Christ ..." or "accept christ in your heart..." are all human innovations. I start to leaving arminianism by readings Romans 9, when I read that passage i realized that something in my theology was wrong.... and now I am a Calvinist by the grace of God....

[tango9jeff]

@physicist21 See its this entire mentality that is wrong to me. You're a Calvinist by Gods grace? How about your a disciple of Jesus Christ By Gods grace! May we stop dividing over such things. My stance is this, No one deserves salvation but I believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ and prayer releases Gods grace and power to anyone who then has a responsibility to act on it. Whatever side you agree with, you are all my brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus!! =)

[MRKetter81]

@tango9jeff So your idea is to be intellectually lazy? Yeah lets all leave our brains at the front door when we worship... by no means!

"Worship the Lord your God with all your soul strength and MIND".

We are called by God to BE MINDFUL of such things. How then do you claim someone is your brother if their understanding remains hostile towards you?

Work out your salvation with fear and trembling for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and work according to His good pleasure.

[tango9jeff]

@MRKetter81 So because I don't subscribe to a set theology formula that makes me intellectually lazy? Oh brother you should not make assumptions like that which you have no idea about. I was simply stating a point that so many people are making their theology formulas idols over Jesus Christ himself. God bless you mate!

[MRKetter81]

@tango9jeff I don't make assumptions, and you are acting the hypocrite. You weren't making any point at all. The whole some of argument boils down to not caring, so long as what; you worship a neutered God who can't do anything unless you say so?

I don't worship whatever "Jesus" you do. My God is sovereign over all things including my will. My God saves and doesn't fail to do so because he's limited to someone's feeble human desire not to.

No I don't worship your convoluted idol.

[tango9jeff]

@MRKetter81 My heart hurts from the way you speak to me. I don't worship any made up Jesus but the Christ of the bible. I just desire for us all to not divide anymore over theological differences. I'm not an arminian either. I just simply read scripture and continue to grow and learn. I'm shocked at the lack of love in the way you speak. Where are these qualities in your life? Love, joy, peace, Patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, self control. Peace be to you mate!

[MRKetter81]

@tango9jeff "My heart hurts from the way you speak to me"

Jeremiah 17:9

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick;

 who can understand it?

[MRKetter81]

@tango9jeff Christ is Lord, not a beggar.

[storpas]

I hope the Arminians here are more "educated" here than to say that's the God of the old testament, but just in case let me remind you: The Lord is the same yesterday, today and forever (Hebrew 13:8). The Lord does not change (Malachi 3:6). Let us also not forget that God struck down dead Ananias and HIS wife Sapphira (Acts 5:1-11) and caused many to be ill and fall asleep (die) (1 Cor 11:30) in the new testament church.

[storpas]

Daniel 4:35 "All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done?"

Amos 3:6 "When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?"

[storpas]

2 Kings 17:25 "When they first lived there, they did not worship the LORD; so He sent lions among them and they killed some of the people."

Job 23:13 "But he stands alone, and who can oppose him? He does whatever he pleases."

Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."

Lamentations 3:38 "Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?"

[storpas]

Exodus 4:11 “So the LORD said to him, “Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes the mute, the deaf, the seeing, or the blind? Have not I, the LORD?”

Deuteronomy 32:39 "See now that I myself am He! There is no god besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand."

2 Samuel 10:12b- "The LORD will do what is good in His sight."

[ExaminingCalvinism]

Sproul mentions the word "pagan," but what is pagan is Stoic Fatalism and Gnostic Determinism, which Augustine repackaged as biblical "predestination" and "sovereignty." Sproul blames Western Christianity for the predominant views of free will, but makes no mention of the first 300 years of Early Church views on free-will. Sproul's understanding of Romans 9 is like one who cannot see the forest through the trees. See Rom 2:17, 9:1-3, 11:25; Jerem 18. It's a Jewish message on a Jewish hardening.

[jdptrusty]

Um...apparently Sproul doesn't understand Paul at all. If he thinks Paul is responding to "Arminian objections", a new caricature to me, rather than unbelieving Jewish objections...he needs to go back and restart his education from scratch. All the strawmen aside, I have never made the objection Paul answers in Romans 9 as an Arminian, but then again, perhaps I understand Romans 9 whereas Sproul does not...

[jdptrusty]

Umm...Arminian theology is Reformation theology.

[klucharis]

@jdptrusty And you are so right, reformation refers to the time of reformation on restoration of centrality of the bible and Christ to the church. But any of us Calvinist as high jacket the whole movement which in unfortunate.

[klucharis]

And frankly they are more passionate about spreading the gospel than we are it seems, I even heard John Piper and R.C Sproul voicing this and giving them credit for taking the gospel to the ends of the earth.

[klucharis]

I love R.C Sproul, awesome theologian and apologist, but even though I am of the reform persuasion I am weary of the fact that a lot of our leaders aren't as gracious as our message, there should always be room for dialogue. Our Arminian brothers deserve respect and and acknowledgement, some are awesome scholars.

[klucharis]

I totally agree with what you are saying, I was just commenting on the spirit of those times, times of intolerance and extremes. We probably need some of those today to help preserve true theology but not going as far as executing and expelling people from the faith.

[klucharis]

Ok, thanks I will.

Remember I am reformed but still have questions.

[klucharis]

Jacobus Arminus rejected the the teaching of Calvin being taught to him by Theodre Beza he was called to defend his position but died before he could do so. So his followers wrote a document of Jacobus Arminius beliefs for which they were expelled from Holland for, after this the followers of John Calvin responded to the Arminian five point documnent by establishing five points of thier own from John Calvins teaching.

I am actually a Calvinist, but with questions. .

[TheEgonTowst]

@klucharis Those responses came to be known as what we now call the "Five Points of Calvinism." This was not the beginning of Calvinism, nor do the Five Points summarize all of Calvinistic doctrine. This was simply a response that was published in regards to particular controversial doctrines that the Arminian protesters had brought forward.

[klucharis]

I respect Dr. Sproul, such a beautiful mind. But Arminianism is not protest against the five points of Calvinism, it's actually the opposite. .

[Leoji67]

@klucharis Can you elaborate on how it is the "opposite"

[TheEgonTowst]

@klucharis He didn't say it was a protest against the five points. He said it was a protest against Calvinism. And he is right. Arminius was originally a pastor in a Calvinist/Reformed church, but started questioning some of the doctrines and wanted to have the Reformed confessions amended as a result. That's what his followers were trying to do when they submitted their articles *as a protest*, calling for them to be amended into Reformed theology. (Continued...)

[TheEgonTowst]

@klucharis (...Continued) A great synod of several dozen pastors and thinkers gathered together from various different nations to discuss and review these articles. They didn't just kick the Arminians out of Holland. They spent the better part of 7 months critically reviewing these documents and comparing them to Scripture. (Look up the Synod of Dordt). They took Arminius's request quite seriously. But they unanimously rejected the articles, on the basis of Scripture, and wrote responses

[3333333333joeberry]

The power of the creature controlling the Creator what a flagitious thought................

[avalon35100]

I really enjoy listening to Dr Sproule on scripture-his knowledge is immense and very helpful but he is wrong on Arminianism. God has Sovereignly decided that(even pre destined that ) that all who believe and trust in Jesus will be saved. Calvanism makes God a liar- scripture says God is not willing that any should perish. Its ultimately down to our choice to take hold of life,

Ok I have just gone through the old argument.

[TheEgonTowst]

@avalon35100 Perhaps you should listen to him a little more, and hear him explain how you've misunderstood 2 Peter 3:9 by ripping it out of context. Peter defines the "any" and "all" very clearly in the context, and it is not all of humanity.

[GammoFamily]

@ ScottyVOR there is no such thing as an ex-calvinist

[stsamueldr]

@GammoFamily : i am one too...ex-calvinist....

[ScottyVOR]

While I respect Sproul, I would have slightly different answers now as an ex-Calvinist. ;)

Christians are thankfully influenced by forms of non-Calvinism because Calvinism, when taken to it's furthest logical ends, collapses as a mass of paradoxes (read: contradictions) as a result of over-extending certain biblical truths at the expense of others. It's Theology on steroids, and it shows.

I sometimes wonder if Calvinists would be quite so ebullient over TULIP if they knew they weren't elect...

[stsamueldr]

@ScottyVOR : I agree. And it's more biblical...arminianism. Dr.Sproul is also giving a strawman argument for arminianism also.

[ObeyTheGospelOrDie]

@ScottyVOR There are no contradictions in Reformed though. There are no contradictions in the Bible. There are no contradictions is Sovereign grace.