Men inspired, program-driven "churches" are in the final days. The "last days" organized churches will either apostate, aligning themselved to antichrist, or will evolve back to the model that was established in the book of Acts. The coming trials will expedite this reality.
Be filled with The Spirt and He will guide you into all truth!
John 4: 19 “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.” 21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.
23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.
To the author of the video. You are misinformed. Viola has never been against "sermons" or "preaching of the word" in and of itself. In other books he has written he explains that there were many types of meetings in the NT and some were evangelistic, others were apostolic, where an apostle or apostolic worker would deliver the message, etc. What Viola/Barna are confronting is the sermon as the FOCAL POINT of modern christianity. You completely misunderstood the book.
No doubt Constantine propagated pagan practise, but church elders and teachers will always teach and preach as they are led by the Spirit of God, whether they are standing in a pulpit or sitting in a chair. Viola and Barna are not church leadership. The apostles would ignore Viola and Barna.
I think you'll find that Frank Viola & George Barna in the co-authored book "Pagan Christianity" aren't actually against the word being preached to an audience of listeners, but are questioning the practice of week after week, month after month, year after year to a passive body of Christ listening to a professional clergy. This oratory practice was very much a 'Pagan' Greco-Roman profession by the Sophists before the time of Christ.
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
The people are not the pastor's flock, sir. They are the Lord's flock. There is no scriptural precedent for the pastor being the chief shepherd teaching from the pulpit while the brethren are passive. Jesus is the Shepherd and His Spirit in all believers gifts the brethren for the edification of the entire church. This duty is not supposed to be monopolized by the pastor (aided by a choir and/or a worship leader).
virmaior and caracsmc are correct. This video does NOT accurately relate the views of the authors of Pagan Christianity. There is no scriptural foundation for having a paid pastor who preaches a sermon every Sunday. There is good evidence that the practices of the modern institutional church DO stifle the work of the Holy Spirit. I challenge all believers to read it. Never intended to stand alone. Must also read Reimagining Church!
virmaior and caracsmc are correct. This video does accurately relate the views of the authors of Pagan Christianity. There is no scriptural foundation for having a paid pastor who preaches a sermon every Sunday. There is good evidence that the practices of the modern institutional church DO stifle the work of the Holy Spirit. I challenge all believers to read it. Never intended to stand alone. Must also read Reimagining Church!
This might refute a claim of Viola's "Pagan Christianity" regarding sermons but does not say anything against practioners of house church and simple church generally.
The authors never suggest that "preaching" is unbiblical in and of itself. It's the idea that one man "preaches" at every gathering while everyone else sits and listens that is not a biblical idea for the regular gathering of the believers for fellowship. If you read more of their writings they are clear that there are occasions for what we would call a "sermon" or one person delivering a message to the rest. It's important to have all the facts before refuting a point.
Do you have any scripture to show that we are supposed to go to church and hear a sermon? The real issue is not having someone teach from the Bible. I think we are all for that. The problem is in taking up most of the church's time with one person giving one long teaching, and leaving no time for the other things that are to be done in church, like those mentioned in I Cor. 14:26 or Heb 10:24-25
Many evangelical preachers in the US preach 3-point sermons-- a method based on ancient Greek oratory going back at least to the time of Aristotle, and not one found in scripture. Frank will give lengthy 'messages' but not call them sermons. The real issue is that the Bible does not teach that church is all about hearing one leader give a lengthy sermon. Rather, the NT shows us that in church, the saints are to take turns speaking to edify the body (Hb 10:24-25, I Cor. 14:26.)
@SaudaraLink This fellow uses the moniker of ApostelPaul... and proceeds to refute Paul's writings not only by his Judaizing that Paul clearly disdained but by his soft, effeminate nature that Paul clearly denounced as well.
@tjotwo I think 'malakos' in this context, listed with arsenokoite refers to one of the participants in homosexual activity. Malakos could also refer to a kind of moral softness in Greek thought. I don't know if they used to to refer to speaking with a slight lisp or having a tenor voice as opposed to base. I also think his idea of a 'sermon' is different from Viola's 3 point essay type.
@SaudaraLink This weakness or softness is very well related to this context. We have the clear Word of God that describes how men are to relate to one another and God (Matt 23 & 1 Cor 11) and how to conduct worship. The soft will allow other men to assume spiritual headship over them and subject them to the devices or schemes of men (Ecc 7:27).
@tjotwo I don't think the guy sounds gay per se. Half of it is his accent. Listen to some other men with the same accent. I knew a guy in the south who thought lots of men from up north sounded wimpy. The verses you mention aren't about being soft-spoken either. Also, the Judiazers of galatians were trying to circumcise Gentiles. The issue of sermons doesn't show up in that context.
@SaudaraLink It is incorrect to typify Gal 5 as strictly focused on circumcision and not related to the entire OT Law. Look back at the last section of Gal 4. APoT is basing his assertions about form of worship on a passage from the OT and completely ignoring 1 Cor 14.
This is not about Brits but it is about a guy who uses the moniker of Paul but is nothing like what Paul says about himself in 1 Cor 2. And it is all about a softness in yielding to the ways of men rather than standing w/God.
@tjotwo Teaching verse by verse from the NT, like this guy is talking about, is not Judaizing. If it is, lots of well-known HC teachers would be in big trouble. Paul does not forbid teaching from scripture, even the OT Law in Galatians or elsewhere. btw, I see 'malakos' as referring to someone who practices homosexuality in I cor. 6 based on its use after arsenokoites, hence my misunderstanding of your position.
Men inspired, program-driven "churches" are in the final days. The "last days" organized churches will either apostate, aligning themselved to antichrist, or will evolve back to the model that was established in the book of Acts. The coming trials will expedite this reality.
Be filled with The Spirt and He will guide you into all truth!
welldoneministry 4 months ago
John 4: 19 “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.” 21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.
23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.
4SmallGov 5 months ago
To the author of the video. You are misinformed. Viola has never been against "sermons" or "preaching of the word" in and of itself. In other books he has written he explains that there were many types of meetings in the NT and some were evangelistic, others were apostolic, where an apostle or apostolic worker would deliver the message, etc. What Viola/Barna are confronting is the sermon as the FOCAL POINT of modern christianity. You completely misunderstood the book.
caracasmc 5 months ago
No doubt Constantine propagated pagan practise, but church elders and teachers will always teach and preach as they are led by the Spirit of God, whether they are standing in a pulpit or sitting in a chair. Viola and Barna are not church leadership. The apostles would ignore Viola and Barna.
esgatch 7 months ago
I think you'll find that Frank Viola & George Barna in the co-authored book "Pagan Christianity" aren't actually against the word being preached to an audience of listeners, but are questioning the practice of week after week, month after month, year after year to a passive body of Christ listening to a professional clergy. This oratory practice was very much a 'Pagan' Greco-Roman profession by the Sophists before the time of Christ.
NZKiwee 9 months ago
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Acts 20:28 (KJV)
revglt 10 months ago
The people are not the pastor's flock, sir. They are the Lord's flock. There is no scriptural precedent for the pastor being the chief shepherd teaching from the pulpit while the brethren are passive. Jesus is the Shepherd and His Spirit in all believers gifts the brethren for the edification of the entire church. This duty is not supposed to be monopolized by the pastor (aided by a choir and/or a worship leader).
l3ahmr1 10 months ago
Sorry about that. My first comment submission contained an error. I had omitted the word "Not" in the second sentence.
l3ahmr1 10 months ago
virmaior and caracsmc are correct. This video does NOT accurately relate the views of the authors of Pagan Christianity. There is no scriptural foundation for having a paid pastor who preaches a sermon every Sunday. There is good evidence that the practices of the modern institutional church DO stifle the work of the Holy Spirit. I challenge all believers to read it. Never intended to stand alone. Must also read Reimagining Church!
l3ahmr1 10 months ago
virmaior and caracsmc are correct. This video does accurately relate the views of the authors of Pagan Christianity. There is no scriptural foundation for having a paid pastor who preaches a sermon every Sunday. There is good evidence that the practices of the modern institutional church DO stifle the work of the Holy Spirit. I challenge all believers to read it. Never intended to stand alone. Must also read Reimagining Church!
l3ahmr1 10 months ago
Do you have a NT example?
This might refute a claim of Viola's "Pagan Christianity" regarding sermons but does not say anything against practioners of house church and simple church generally.
virmaior 10 months ago
The authors never suggest that "preaching" is unbiblical in and of itself. It's the idea that one man "preaches" at every gathering while everyone else sits and listens that is not a biblical idea for the regular gathering of the believers for fellowship. If you read more of their writings they are clear that there are occasions for what we would call a "sermon" or one person delivering a message to the rest. It's important to have all the facts before refuting a point.
caracasmc 11 months ago
Do you have any scripture to show that we are supposed to go to church and hear a sermon? The real issue is not having someone teach from the Bible. I think we are all for that. The problem is in taking up most of the church's time with one person giving one long teaching, and leaving no time for the other things that are to be done in church, like those mentioned in I Cor. 14:26 or Heb 10:24-25
SaudaraLink 1 year ago
Many evangelical preachers in the US preach 3-point sermons-- a method based on ancient Greek oratory going back at least to the time of Aristotle, and not one found in scripture. Frank will give lengthy 'messages' but not call them sermons. The real issue is that the Bible does not teach that church is all about hearing one leader give a lengthy sermon. Rather, the NT shows us that in church, the saints are to take turns speaking to edify the body (Hb 10:24-25, I Cor. 14:26.)
SaudaraLink 1 year ago
Matt 4:15-16
Col 2:16-23
Heb 8 & 10
Acts 7:48-53
Look at what malakos (original Greek) means in 1 Cor 6:9.
Viola and Barna have their problems, but their exposure of the institutional church is quite an eye-opener.
This is what the real Apostle Paul said - Galatians 1:6-10
tjotwo 1 year ago
@tjotwo What does 'malakos' have to do with this topic?
SaudaraLink 1 year ago
@SaudaraLink This fellow uses the moniker of ApostelPaul... and proceeds to refute Paul's writings not only by his Judaizing that Paul clearly disdained but by his soft, effeminate nature that Paul clearly denounced as well.
tjotwo 1 year ago
@tjotwo I think 'malakos' in this context, listed with arsenokoite refers to one of the participants in homosexual activity. Malakos could also refer to a kind of moral softness in Greek thought. I don't know if they used to to refer to speaking with a slight lisp or having a tenor voice as opposed to base. I also think his idea of a 'sermon' is different from Viola's 3 point essay type.
SaudaraLink 1 year ago
@SaudaraLink This weakness or softness is very well related to this context. We have the clear Word of God that describes how men are to relate to one another and God (Matt 23 & 1 Cor 11) and how to conduct worship. The soft will allow other men to assume spiritual headship over them and subject them to the devices or schemes of men (Ecc 7:27).
tjotwo 1 year ago
@tjotwo I don't think the guy sounds gay per se. Half of it is his accent. Listen to some other men with the same accent. I knew a guy in the south who thought lots of men from up north sounded wimpy. The verses you mention aren't about being soft-spoken either. Also, the Judiazers of galatians were trying to circumcise Gentiles. The issue of sermons doesn't show up in that context.
SaudaraLink 1 year ago
@SaudaraLink It is incorrect to typify Gal 5 as strictly focused on circumcision and not related to the entire OT Law. Look back at the last section of Gal 4. APoT is basing his assertions about form of worship on a passage from the OT and completely ignoring 1 Cor 14.
This is not about Brits but it is about a guy who uses the moniker of Paul but is nothing like what Paul says about himself in 1 Cor 2. And it is all about a softness in yielding to the ways of men rather than standing w/God.
tjotwo 1 year ago
@tjotwo Teaching verse by verse from the NT, like this guy is talking about, is not Judaizing. If it is, lots of well-known HC teachers would be in big trouble. Paul does not forbid teaching from scripture, even the OT Law in Galatians or elsewhere. btw, I see 'malakos' as referring to someone who practices homosexuality in I cor. 6 based on its use after arsenokoites, hence my misunderstanding of your position.
SaudaraLink 1 year ago
Wake up brother
alexvannes 1 year ago
Its about being the church, not playing church
allsetbuildserv 1 year ago
Terrific answer. Thanks for making this video.
JJB300 1 year ago