God's sovereignty means that all God has ordained before time,men will freely do in the future .So God is not looking at possibilities as to work His plan around man's will.All men are sinful and can only use their wills to sin.God uses man's sinfulness to accomplish all of His will to glorify Himself & 4 the good of the believers --that He has chose to save BTW.God stops man's sins all the time(remember S- Paul's plans?),so man is not even "free" 2 do the evil he would like to do.
I hold to classical theism, which is perhaps best articulated by St Thomas Aquinas. For classical theism, God is outside of time and space, and therefore has fore knowledge of all of our free choices without compromising this freedom. Infact, it is a metaphor to speak of God's FORE knowledge, because taken literally this suggests that God is in the present looking into the future; but that would be misleading. Past, present and future (from our perspective) are eternally present to Him
Isn't the "world" made up of individuals that God wants to save, therefore through his Middle Knowledge created a world in which the most amount of individuals would freely choose him? God knows every hair on our head so he should have no problem knowing all the individuals in any given world...?
It all boils down to one thing,people hate the God of the Bible and they are looking for any loop hole in order to not believe what scripture is actually saying.Many people claim to be Christian,yet they call the God of the Calvinists (who is the God of the Bible) evil.Now how can people claim to believe in the God of the BIBLE and then call Him evil?
Don't you think that God made the world that would generate the most people who would accept Him? "The most people" is not the same as "most people", meaning the majority.
@fmmetamc He only said that molinism is popular among those of the arminian persuasion. The only people that buy into the philosophical concept of molinism are unbalanced arminians seeking to reconcile man's autonomous free-will with God's sovereignty.
All molinist are arminian to some degree, but NOT all arminians are molinist.
Molinism- a problem, not a solution... anyone wanting to remain true to the text of scripture should beware of such outside concepts being forced upon the scriptures.
@EverydayRevival all molinists are arminians only to a calvinist. just because you see theology as binary doesnt make it that way. mind you, i myself have strong calvinist tendencies, but in years and years of studying calvinism, there's never been one calvinist to be able to demonstrate sola scriptura that god's sovereignty means determinism. additionally, calvinists always say god being a "great responder" takes away from his glory. on the contrary...
@fmmetamc The Bible states that "no man can stay His hand" and if God's determines His own actions based on the actions (hypothetical or otherwise) of fallen sinful man, then it diminishes His sovereignty. God works all things according to the good pleasure of His own will, and not based on what His corrupt fallen creatures might or might not do.
There is no room in biblical theology, or the Bible itself for that matter, for "what ifs" and "maybes"
@EverydayRevival a creation thats akin to a clock with deterministic gears and cogs is NOT glorious or great, ESPECIALLY in comparrison to a creation that allows for everyone to have free will and yet STILL HIS WORD WILL BE FULFILLED ALWAYS. its infact quite, QUITE obvious which one brings glory to god and which does not. especially within the context of of the scriptures describing god's character.
@fmmetamc Autonomous free will in the context of free moral agent able to choose good and evil is Greek philosophy and is completely foreign to the pages of scripture. You're either a slave to sin or a slave to Christ. Only after someone has been born again by the spirit can he serve the God that he once hated.
@EverydayRevival any calvinist that acts like there's no case for free will in the bible has already shown their not painful biased on the issue. that's completely not the case. additionally, there's no way to move from the things the bible DOES say about god's sovereignty to the things calvinists say it clearly and conclusively says. i say this sorta thing to arminians who say there's no biblical case for calvinistic views also. the fact is both views ARE biblical, hence the truth is both.
@EverydayRevival any calvinist that acts like there's no case for free will in the bible has already shown their painfully biased on the issue. that's completely not the case. additionally, there's no way to move from the things the bible DOES say about god's sovereignty to the things calvinists say it clearly and conclusively says. i say this sorta thing to arminians who say there's no biblical case for calvinistic views also. the fact is both views ARE biblical, hence the truth is both.
@fmmetamc That's illogical, and a big problem in today's postmodern world... God can't actively ordain all things and base it on the free will actions of fallen sinful creatures... you can't have both. Free moral agency and autonomous free will are not found in the pages of scripture. We are free to do as we will within the limitations of our hearts that are clearly laid out in scripture.
Go to the Reasonable Faith website, click on the Podcasts sections, scroll down until you see under Defenders Class 1, a podcast named Doctrine of Salvation #5. See especially Craig's comments at 17:20
But Craig, in his sunday school class, Defenders, actually says that it seems to be the case that the Bible suggests that God elects both individually & corporately, and therefore both affirmations need a rapprochement.
For arguments sake, let's grant that Election is of individuals, I ask, what is world, but a collection of individuals? The Elction of the individuals within the world, is what drove God to Elect the World as a whole. Also, assuming that God Elected the world with the most people saved perhaps pushes this too far, I think it is enough to say, God Elected those He choose too, far whatever Good reason He had.
Seems quite often many miss the mark on much. When counseling with a young woman why God allowed bad things to happen to her when a young girl. This meaning bad would be an understatement and always frelt God let her down as her spiritual Father. The anbswer I gave helped her get over quite a bit. If God stopped that personfrom doing bad things, God as very consistent would have to stop all evil. If this happened-we would all be in hell and would have ceased to exist in this life To be cont.
@daveme7 Whennseeing much what is used to justify free will such as God must allow evil so we can develope good things which is way off against salvation by grace through faith. For all the accusations of Calvinism changing the nature of God-I tend to think we change nothing and perhaps those trying to justify free will should bring that acuusation on themselves. 2 Peter 3 might be a better place to find answers for why God allows evil-the mercy of God.
Sorry for so many posts as this is an importamnt subject, I tend to think we should really begin to understand why man has free will and hopefully will aliviate much reasoning on this and that. Free will(which I do believe all humanity posseses) is from God but was never intended for us to have. Free will is the sin nature. Often we do not look at the knowledge of good and evil as a part of the sin nature. When Adam Judged to be sin which God calls good(nakedness) we never see this as sin!
Craig thinks God chooses which world to create, but he doesn't think that that is God's electing to salvation. Craig holds to the view that election is primarily corporate and secondarily individual. I admire the respectfulness of Greg in this video though on an issue that people often cross lines in.
Middle Knowledge is not "might" do but "would" do. Given certain conditions the free agent "would" respond a particular way. It's also not "freely choose God" but man can freely reject God's grace once it comes upon them. Greg, you completely mischaracterize Molinism. Also William Lane Craig absolutely agrees with individual election as well as corporate as he has defended both in his defenders class! Somehow you got your wires all mixed up on all this.
I'm not saying mans will comes before God. It would be like this.
1. God CHOOSES to give all men common grace which includes the ability to surrender to Him.
2. Some surrender to God's grace.
3. God CHOOSES to save those who do in real time.
(pre step 1) God foresees this happening and therefor has already decided to save them when the time comes and has elected and predestined them to glory.
Why can't it be that election and predestination is God choosing to save those who do bend their knee and prepare them for glory. He can do this before they're saved because he knows they will surrender. Wouldn't that harmonize better with the way the Bible presents salvation as an ultimatum?
Interesting video. I'm having a hard time grasping everything you're saying, but I think I agree that Molinism doesn't hold up.
I have a question regarding Calvinism though:
Why can't it be that God gives all souls enough grace to where they can make a decision to bend their knee to His grace, or resist it? A sovereign king can still offer his subjects ultimatums. No?
God's sovereignty means that all God has ordained before time,men will freely do in the future .So God is not looking at possibilities as to work His plan around man's will.All men are sinful and can only use their wills to sin.God uses man's sinfulness to accomplish all of His will to glorify Himself & 4 the good of the believers --that He has chose to save BTW.God stops man's sins all the time(remember S- Paul's plans?),so man is not even "free" 2 do the evil he would like to do.
CBALLEN 3 weeks ago
I hold to classical theism, which is perhaps best articulated by St Thomas Aquinas. For classical theism, God is outside of time and space, and therefore has fore knowledge of all of our free choices without compromising this freedom. Infact, it is a metaphor to speak of God's FORE knowledge, because taken literally this suggests that God is in the present looking into the future; but that would be misleading. Past, present and future (from our perspective) are eternally present to Him
bayreuth79 3 months ago in playlist Molinism
Isn't the "world" made up of individuals that God wants to save, therefore through his Middle Knowledge created a world in which the most amount of individuals would freely choose him? God knows every hair on our head so he should have no problem knowing all the individuals in any given world...?
samwarren74 4 months ago
It all boils down to one thing,people hate the God of the Bible and they are looking for any loop hole in order to not believe what scripture is actually saying.Many people claim to be Christian,yet they call the God of the Calvinists (who is the God of the Bible) evil.Now how can people claim to believe in the God of the BIBLE and then call Him evil?
CBALLEN 8 months ago
Don't you think that God made the world that would generate the most people who would accept Him? "The most people" is not the same as "most people", meaning the majority.
deezynar 9 months ago
uuuuh...i cant even believe im taking issue with something koukl says...but molinism is wholly seperate and distinct from arminianism.
fmmetamc 9 months ago
@fmmetamc He only said that molinism is popular among those of the arminian persuasion. The only people that buy into the philosophical concept of molinism are unbalanced arminians seeking to reconcile man's autonomous free-will with God's sovereignty.
All molinist are arminian to some degree, but NOT all arminians are molinist.
Molinism- a problem, not a solution... anyone wanting to remain true to the text of scripture should beware of such outside concepts being forced upon the scriptures.
EverydayRevival 8 months ago
@EverydayRevival all molinists are arminians only to a calvinist. just because you see theology as binary doesnt make it that way. mind you, i myself have strong calvinist tendencies, but in years and years of studying calvinism, there's never been one calvinist to be able to demonstrate sola scriptura that god's sovereignty means determinism. additionally, calvinists always say god being a "great responder" takes away from his glory. on the contrary...
fmmetamc 8 months ago
@fmmetamc The Bible states that "no man can stay His hand" and if God's determines His own actions based on the actions (hypothetical or otherwise) of fallen sinful man, then it diminishes His sovereignty. God works all things according to the good pleasure of His own will, and not based on what His corrupt fallen creatures might or might not do.
There is no room in biblical theology, or the Bible itself for that matter, for "what ifs" and "maybes"
God is ALL-powerful, not mostly powerful.
EverydayRevival 8 months ago
@EverydayRevival a creation thats akin to a clock with deterministic gears and cogs is NOT glorious or great, ESPECIALLY in comparrison to a creation that allows for everyone to have free will and yet STILL HIS WORD WILL BE FULFILLED ALWAYS. its infact quite, QUITE obvious which one brings glory to god and which does not. especially within the context of of the scriptures describing god's character.
fmmetamc 8 months ago
@fmmetamc Autonomous free will in the context of free moral agent able to choose good and evil is Greek philosophy and is completely foreign to the pages of scripture. You're either a slave to sin or a slave to Christ. Only after someone has been born again by the spirit can he serve the God that he once hated.
EverydayRevival 8 months ago
@EverydayRevival any calvinist that acts like there's no case for free will in the bible has already shown their not painful biased on the issue. that's completely not the case. additionally, there's no way to move from the things the bible DOES say about god's sovereignty to the things calvinists say it clearly and conclusively says. i say this sorta thing to arminians who say there's no biblical case for calvinistic views also. the fact is both views ARE biblical, hence the truth is both.
fmmetamc 8 months ago
@EverydayRevival any calvinist that acts like there's no case for free will in the bible has already shown their painfully biased on the issue. that's completely not the case. additionally, there's no way to move from the things the bible DOES say about god's sovereignty to the things calvinists say it clearly and conclusively says. i say this sorta thing to arminians who say there's no biblical case for calvinistic views also. the fact is both views ARE biblical, hence the truth is both.
fmmetamc 8 months ago
@fmmetamc That's illogical, and a big problem in today's postmodern world... God can't actively ordain all things and base it on the free will actions of fallen sinful creatures... you can't have both. Free moral agency and autonomous free will are not found in the pages of scripture. We are free to do as we will within the limitations of our hearts that are clearly laid out in scripture.
EverydayRevival 8 months ago
Go to the Reasonable Faith website, click on the Podcasts sections, scroll down until you see under Defenders Class 1, a podcast named Doctrine of Salvation #5. See especially Craig's comments at 17:20
TheGoodNewsofJesus 10 months ago
But Craig, in his sunday school class, Defenders, actually says that it seems to be the case that the Bible suggests that God elects both individually & corporately, and therefore both affirmations need a rapprochement.
TheGoodNewsofJesus 10 months ago
Craig and Koukl should debate about this.
TheFaithHunter 11 months ago
For arguments sake, let's grant that Election is of individuals, I ask, what is world, but a collection of individuals? The Elction of the individuals within the world, is what drove God to Elect the World as a whole. Also, assuming that God Elected the world with the most people saved perhaps pushes this too far, I think it is enough to say, God Elected those He choose too, far whatever Good reason He had.
ChristusVlCTOR 11 months ago
Seems quite often many miss the mark on much. When counseling with a young woman why God allowed bad things to happen to her when a young girl. This meaning bad would be an understatement and always frelt God let her down as her spiritual Father. The anbswer I gave helped her get over quite a bit. If God stopped that personfrom doing bad things, God as very consistent would have to stop all evil. If this happened-we would all be in hell and would have ceased to exist in this life To be cont.
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 Whennseeing much what is used to justify free will such as God must allow evil so we can develope good things which is way off against salvation by grace through faith. For all the accusations of Calvinism changing the nature of God-I tend to think we change nothing and perhaps those trying to justify free will should bring that acuusation on themselves. 2 Peter 3 might be a better place to find answers for why God allows evil-the mercy of God.
daveme7 1 year ago
Sorry for so many posts as this is an importamnt subject, I tend to think we should really begin to understand why man has free will and hopefully will aliviate much reasoning on this and that. Free will(which I do believe all humanity posseses) is from God but was never intended for us to have. Free will is the sin nature. Often we do not look at the knowledge of good and evil as a part of the sin nature. When Adam Judged to be sin which God calls good(nakedness) we never see this as sin!
daveme7 1 year ago
Craig thinks God chooses which world to create, but he doesn't think that that is God's electing to salvation. Craig holds to the view that election is primarily corporate and secondarily individual. I admire the respectfulness of Greg in this video though on an issue that people often cross lines in.
Kief553 1 year ago
Middle Knowledge is not "might" do but "would" do. Given certain conditions the free agent "would" respond a particular way. It's also not "freely choose God" but man can freely reject God's grace once it comes upon them. Greg, you completely mischaracterize Molinism. Also William Lane Craig absolutely agrees with individual election as well as corporate as he has defended both in his defenders class! Somehow you got your wires all mixed up on all this.
Gentle135 1 year ago
I'm not saying mans will comes before God. It would be like this.
1. God CHOOSES to give all men common grace which includes the ability to surrender to Him.
2. Some surrender to God's grace.
3. God CHOOSES to save those who do in real time.
(pre step 1) God foresees this happening and therefor has already decided to save them when the time comes and has elected and predestined them to glory.
Interested to hear what you thing Greg.
No hypercalvinist haters please.
Sorry for the 3 comments.
2ceBorn 1 year ago
Why can't it be that election and predestination is God choosing to save those who do bend their knee and prepare them for glory. He can do this before they're saved because he knows they will surrender. Wouldn't that harmonize better with the way the Bible presents salvation as an ultimatum?
2ceBorn 1 year ago
Interesting video. I'm having a hard time grasping everything you're saying, but I think I agree that Molinism doesn't hold up.
I have a question regarding Calvinism though:
Why can't it be that God gives all souls enough grace to where they can make a decision to bend their knee to His grace, or resist it? A sovereign king can still offer his subjects ultimatums. No?
2ceBorn 1 year ago
Hi Greg,
Who is your favourite author?
Thanks for the video.
Michael
Canlander7 1 year ago