Game Connect 08 - What Makes a Good Game - a critics perspective 2/4

[rikgales123]

at the end it was like he sad wats an ass

[7CellarDoors]

Please tell me he did not just condone the existence of Fable 2 and 3... Fable 1 is the only game of that series with any amount of respect and dignity. Its sequels were both designed specifically for members of the audience who should be wearing a helmet at all times, and a nurse with dopamine syringe on standby

[Truthiness231]

5:35 "Take something like Fable; it wasn't great."

I have a two letter response for that: "F" and "U" ^.^

Seriously though, I thought the original Fable was one of the best games I ever played, if only because the story was just so beautifully told, and can't imagine anyone playing it and thinking "wow, this game just isn't quite the best thing since sliced bread"...

[biciunas]

@Truthiness231 can you explain why its great?

[Sonicisbadazz]

I like how Yahtzee says, "I'd rather play a bad game developed by a single person than a DECENT one developed by a committee." It's like he's trying to convince us that committee games can only be decent; never good. Or maybe he's saying that because he really DOESN'T think good games exist. Just decent and bad.

And by the way Yahtzee, there are LOTS of people that see "soul" and "immersion" in Halo, Fallout, and GTA. But I guess those "low-lifes" aren't significant enough to warrant mention!

[Deadlyphase]

@Sonicisbadazz Those people are retarded, that's why. Those games have no immersion, those games aren't even good really. Halo is just a boring generic FPS with nothing exciting, GTA is just run around killing people for no reason. Fallout is actually decent, I'll give you that one, that is a decent game. But there are much better.

[Sonicisbadazz]

@Deadlyphase Dude, that's incredibly egotistical. If you don't feel any "soul" in games like GTA or Halo, that's fine, but assuming that because YOU can't find it, it doesn't HAVE one is self-centered because it presumes that YOU enjoy entertainment the way everyone else does. Everybody has their own tastes, and what you are in essence saying--as is Yahtzee--is that YOUR taste is the correct one, and those with different tastes are wrong.

That's completely unfair and inaccurate IMO.

[Deadlyphase]

@Sonicisbadazz You wrote like two whole essays talking about why you don't like Yahtzee, so why are you watching this to begin with? He's right. There's no "Soul" in completely generic games. There's "soul" in games that are made by people who actually care about their customers. Don't even try to tell me Bungie cares about their customers, look at ODST, what should have been a $20 DLC was sold for $60. They don't care, they just make games for money. Therefore, the games have no soul in them.

[Sonicisbadazz]

@Deadlyphase Look, I'm not trying to be rude or anything; I'm just trying to get people to think about things in a different way. A lot of the stuff that Yahtzee--and many people like him--suggest are the same old arguments that have been used for years. When the economy was doing well, they complained about an unwillingness to take risk that "permeated" the industry. Now the economy is doing badly, and they talk about how they're even MORE averse to risk taking. Why? Because no matter how...TBC

[Sonicisbadazz]

...much risk taking the industry DOES do, critics are going to act like it's not enough.

WE do not work in the industry. WE do not know how the business or development side of these games work. To suggest Bungie does not care about it's customers without knowing the circumstances under which the game got made--or the people involved--is not fair.

And the reason I'm watching him is because someone with an open mind will listen to his opposition's point of view no matter what.

[Sonicisbadazz]

@Deadlyphase Why do you assume that if people actually care, the games won't turn out generic? Are you going to tell me that the Zelda games--which have repeatedly shown us the same stuff for at least a decade and are therefore GENERIC--don't have any soul? What about the God of War games? Or the Final Fantasies? No soul in those either?

All this "soul" crap is really just window dressing for people like Yahtzee to pretend there's an obvious formula that can magically make every game fun. TBC

[Sonicisbadazz]

But if it was that easy, EVERY game would wind up fun once the formula was discovered.

When you really get down to it, what Yahtzee is talking about with "immersion" is just a glorified way of saying "my brain is pumping dopamine SUPER fast." Why is that relevant? Because it's his HEAD--not the development studio--doing it. The studio might be MORE likely to make it happen if they put genuine effort into making the game, but it's NOT a guarantee. In life, there ARE no guarantees.

[Sonicisbadazz]

@Deadlyphase Uh, small problem with your argument: Bungie wanted to sell the game at a big discount; it was MICROSOFT that decided it should have a full retail price. I guess Bungie DOES care, doesn't it? Or do you have some better argument to support your claim?

This just demonstrates what I've been saying all along: without knowing all the circumstances, we shouldn't be acting like we know whether these people actually care or not.

[Sonicisbadazz]

You have no business telling us how much any individual in a development studio CARES about a project Yahtzee. To suggest that they don't because the product turns out bland for YOU is egotistical. What if all the people care but each has a different vision? Wouldn't the exact same thing you're complaining of result? But I'm sure you don't care. It's easier--and more condescending--to just say the developers don't care So thats what you're going to do And you'll continue to be as wrong as always

[Sonicisbadazz]

'Sigh' Yahtzee, I can think of a dozen arguments off the top of my head that show just how wrong you are.

You've presented a wonderful study. Too bad the study leaves out one critical element: whether the person actually IS dying. Since they can't SEE the person, it's not CLEAR whether they're dying. If you're comparing this to game development, that means nobody can SEE whether the game's gasping for air or just clamoring for unnecessary attention! So maybe all those developers are ignoring...

[Sonicisbadazz]

...it because nothing IS wrong with it! Ever consider that?

A good game is one that has the soul of its creator? And how would you know what soul looks like? CAUSE I CAN FEEL IT! How do you know that what you're feeling isn't a mood swing? Or the result of finally getting a girlfriend for the first time? Or any other number of things? And what if that person has the soul of Hitler? Is the game still good THEN!?

Your claims all amount to stuff that sounds good but doesn't stand up to scrutiny,

[Sonicisbadazz]

Oh Yahtzee, you almost had me on your side for once. Then you started talking about games "designed by committee" as if you believe you can actually tell the difference--which you CAN'T--and I remembered why it is that even though I respect you, you're an example of all the reasons entertainment critics make me wanna break windows! Stop pretending to have ANY idea which games have "soul" or "passion" put into them. THAT'S COMPLETELY SUBJECTIVE

[Ryuukishi0]

@Sonicisbadazz I dunno, the difference between Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross was pretty apparent to me.

[Sonicisbadazz]

@Ryuukishi0 To YOU. Not to everyone. Myself for instance. And my brother. And hundreds of reviewers. And the hundreds that bought Chrono Cross.

Furthermore, you're assuming that if the developers PUT soul into making the game, YOU will feel that soul shine through. What if you're having a bad day? Or you just don't care for the genre? Or you're just somebody with standards so high that only the likes of Bioshock seem to hav soul to you? (NOTE: Yahtzee has been highly critical of Bioshock.)

[darkmyro]

that was beautifuly said an written

[southsydney]

i like hitler

[meltheofcgamergirl]

he's such a smart guy. <3

[RecklessTalker]

knowing that yahtzee likes castle crashers makes me live him that much more

[CrownedWithLaurels]

TERRY PRATCHET QUOTES FTW.

[benxander]

I like the cult-cam which starts panning over the audience at 1:21.

The Philosophy of Gaming. Yahtzee, a prophet speaking to the masses!

[tsumea]

@benxander That was just to show how full the conference room was - we only panned half the room as well, so there was a lot more people there!

[TheCptFatman]

@tsumea i thought cam-man started nodding of and fell on the camrea, woke up and panned back again.

[1958justiceforall]

To be honest I think that Yahtzee is an amatur comedian, he is genuenly funny

[thejobloshow]

Hard to have one person design a modern gen game when they have big budgets with design documents that run over a 1,000 pages.

[FoggyFishburne]

@thejobloshow It's the principle. No one is taking responsibility for the mess that is produced. And for some reason people think this is ok. Remember people, when you're trying to appeal to everyone, you risk appealing to no one

[SPOTdDRUMMER]

@thejobloshow he's not saying oneperson has to design the game, that'd probably take a decade. It's like making a film there's all of these little components that can be different from film to film or sometimes just plain bad but you could forgive that if there's a heartfelt story that you know the writer and director cared about telling.

[Sonicisbadazz]

@SPOTdDRUMMER He IS saying that one person has to direct everything. In other words, one human and five hundred robots. What he can't seem to understand is that there are 6 billion of us on the planet that all need jobs. And from what I can tell, he doesn't care. Much more important that Yahtzee and gamers in general have fun in front of a TV than that those five hundred people get to eat.

Yahtzee doesn't seem to understand how capitalism works.

[Sonicisbadazz]

@SPOTdDRUMMER Not to be rude, but what you're basically saying is that if there's a heartfelt story that the writer and director genuinely care about telling, it will make YOUR head pump dopamine?

How are we so incapable of recognizing this significant disconnection? Seriously people. You can't just blame everyone because YOUR head won't give you a high. Should the developers always make an effort to? Yes. But will they always succeed if they DO? No.

[StuffedMannequin]

Inspiring

[jmoney13000]

OK that was a OK speech but lets go over it a bit. First all while yes in the 80's many great delevopnments were made through just one man shows think of all the crap also. Just look at the WII to see why small delevopers suck. Now to the bigger teams, I think he has overstaed the soulessness of GTA 4 or a Fallout 3. Both of which were masterpeices in my eyes from a gameplay and storytelling standpoint. They were both very immersive also.

[somberlight]

@jmoney13000, one obligatory point: Wii for "small developer reference" blows by design mostly due to Wii's nature itself. you're not thinking serious indie games there, you're thinking supersoaker colored latest release from mattel'. Now, for a better platform for small releases is Steam although its tied to pc. and if you liked those two games... well, do you remember Yahtzee´s in-review commentary about criticism?

[exosfear512]

A good game is a game with two heroes. One playing it and one making it. That is all.

[ninjawraith17]

I should have made that my Senior Quote

[Zantetsudex]

Unfortunately in today's age it's very highly unlikely that even the greatest of designers will be allowed to grant Yahtzee's ideal unless you're an established big head or possess shovelfuls of wealth at your disposal. Indie developers can only go so far... :(

[BRAMCRACK3R]

He's a lot smater than i thought

[TheAle89515]

@BRAMCRACK3R What? You thought an idiot could come up with Zero Punctuation? The things he says here are more or less what he says in the reviews (minus the profanity and colorful metaphors).

[RavenLand]

@BRAMCRACK3R He's clearly "smater" than you..

[DCOME13]

he and jason mraz have the same hat........sort of

[esspytood]

1:27 exuse me why are you looking at the audience?

[WolfChrome]

I liked that part, it shows that 95% of the room is listening to him. The last time i saw a score better then that was hitler standing over his army shouting out some of the most inspirational war speeches ever made.

Not that i like hitler, just saying he was a great public speaker

[Revolutionaries47]

Old games rock! ie.cod2, THundergorund

[spacekase84]

AMEN. I played through Halo 3 (honestly, all of them) purely for the narrative. I loved the story, but that's about it.

The most fun I've had with a game in years was Cave Story. A free, 2-D sidescrolling dungeon crawler created by one man over 4 years in his spare time. But I'll be damned if it wasn't the most charming game I've played since Earthbound. The game was an extension of the creators soul, and every part of it screamed passion.

[lifeisemo666]

write a book yahtzee! :D

[JadenMorretti]

I'd buy many many copies!

[mrpoultry]

He has wrote a full length novel but it is on his website.

[ApotheosiZ]

Am I the only one who wants to steal his hat, man that's a nice hat.

[misanthropiclusion]

same here

[67sixtyseven67]

I think every RPG should have that hat somewhere as a "unique" item :P. "Yahtzee's Hat - +10 speech".

[ApotheosiZ]

YEAH! with +10 speech and also +1 perspective & +1 intelligence. Hell why not have +1 luck attribute as well.

[Drlife425]

*ahem* fallout 3 *ahem*

[jdbruiser]

theres a real gamer ladies and gentleman

[Bacbi]

Part 1

He's the only person I've ever seen, that I almost never agreed with but still think he is right or atleast funny at the same time. Who have u ever seen that gives a hate speech about something u love then think it's brilliant and funny? My favorit game of all time is Mass Effect, he thought the game was bad because there was to much story that is was like the game didn't want u to play the game aspect, all the things I loved about it. He riped it apart and I found it to be hillarious :P

[Bacbi]

Part 2

Lets just hope he sticks to video games, if he get's any idea about world domination and the end of the earth we might just let him do it and laugh with him in the process:p

[orcgoat]

I recall playing zelda majoras mask and forgetting that I was playing the game. I seemed to fade into the game and I was no longer a person playing link, I was link traveling through the game world.

[zxpipo7]

He's absolutely right. I want more games with a central designer whose given free reign. Books and movies excel as story telling mediums because they are one persons (or a small groups) idea brought to life by the committee. I want 1 creative person driving a story. Sure the worker ants might have good ideas. But if the lead takes in every "good" idea tossed his way. The piece will eventually loose it's personality. This goes for EVERY aspect of a game.

[Vratj]

Sooooooo, he basically says nothing at all except MOAR ONE-MAN GAMEZ PLZ.

[cas343]

Yes. But the reasons he said so are valid.

[FALCONLICK]

yahtzee was nervous

[pizdaro]

first ! :(( how sad