@betsybk56 The Western Rite used in most Catholic Churches was developed later. This is how the Catholic Church originally did its mass when it was still part of the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church (Eastern Orthodox Church)
@1robinsong2 The Byzantines (Eastern Roman Empire) or the Basileia Rhōmaiōn (literally, Roman Empire) considered themselves the continuation of the Empire following the fall of the Western Empire.
I don't question the veracity of the tune or the tenor, I am quite certain the Catholic church has good record of that. Gregorian scholars for example are madmen about scrupulose history and I doubt they ever stopped singing it somewhere. What gets me is that the Greeks had 3 lousy lines left in the whole mass; Kyrie eliaison Christae elieison, Kyrie eleison. Then they lost those. 3 lines and they couldn't leave them alone-I mean really! :)
one of the best chants ive heard. almost aboriginal, the singing maintains a didgeridoo quality. some traces or arabesc music too. thank you callixtinus.
Kyrie eleison is in the Greek, as well as majority of icons and mosaics shown here. Also, singing is in Orthodox style, like we have in Greek, Bulgaria, Serbia or Russia up to now. Also word Roman should be changed to Christian.
You can tend to use whatever you want but it's not true. They called them Greeks, Romans were / are Roman-Catholics. In the Ottoman Empire interpretation of nation was based on the religion ; Turks (islam), Romans (Catholic) and Greeks (Orthodox), in the time of constalation of fascist-modern Turkey by Ataturk and onwards nation in Turkey is interpreted on a basis of state; Turkish, Greek, Maccedonian, Italian --- as in Europe.
The wonderful chant heard here is not "Roman" except in the broadest sense of the empire. It's origins lie in the Syriac-Byzantine Rite. The Western Church used the Kyrie as part of a litany at the beginning of Mass and Gregory notes in his writing that the Roman form was not ornate nor filled with tropes as was the case in Eastern Rites. It found its way into the ordinary of the Mass only after the Council of Trent where it was divorced from the litany and the "Christe Eleison" was added.
@jimryland are you the most knowledgeable bloke on the internet? seems like it to me.
can i ask your opinion? which ave maria and who by? ive got my own idea but i reckon your knowledge might come up with a different conclusion. mind you, not sure jenkins pie jesu in your favourites is the best, needs a stronger boy.
@viago2 Thank you for the compliment but I am not all that smart... just a retired liturgist & church musician with some useless letters after his name. Musically,"Byzantine" is a collective word used to denote forms that originate within the Eastern Roman and Byzantine Empires. It's about as definitive as "Anglican". The modes are relatively the same, springing from the Hellenic formulas, but used in a different way.
@viago2 I agree with you on the Jenkins. It's also a little repetitive. I couldn't begin to select an Ave Maria. Vittoria, Morales, Gibbons, all produced heavenly ones. For arguments sake I'll place Rachmaninoff's Bogoroditsye Devo from the Easter Vigil right near the top.
@jimryland thanks, i was right, you are the font of all musical knowledge. i know little of catholic music, i just came here looking for cadfael music and one song lead to another. Of your suggestions i prefer the vittoria but came across an interesting offering by josquin des prez. my choice is probably too commercial and up-beat for you but i find it stirring, which, for me,is the point. that is westenra singing caccini's ave maria which aint even by caccini lol. id value your opinion.
There's no "Byzantine chant". The eastern part of the Roman Empire has always been Roman. "Byzantines" considered themselves Romans and Romans they were as the Eastern Empire survived until 1453. There's a continuity here.
I tend to use "East Roman" or "Constantinopolitan" rather than Byzantine to describe it. The Empire right up to its last day on 29 May 1453 was known as the Roman Empire. Turks still call any remaining Greek inhabitants of their land as "Romans."
@viago2 Fact is that no Greek Orthodox Christian, and no Roman Catholic born more than 10-15 years before Vatican II, could possibly NOT know that "Kyrie Eleison" means "Lord, have mercy!". This is the sort of thing even a lot of Protestants know. "Lord, have mercy!" is probably the oldest prayer in any language, and this is the Greek form of that prayer.
@TheVizenos thank you very much for the information. from the age of 13 i worked for a Greek Cypriot man in his restaurant. he was a fiery chap who used to scream kyrie eleison at the staff (mostly me) about 10 times a day. i had always assumed it meant "fuck off you lazy bastard". its nice to know he was actually praying for me.
I am not learned in musical terminology, but something about this piece gives it the sense of teetering on the wall between major and minor keys. I find this fitting for a song begging for God's mercy. Absolutely beautiful.
Munda cor meum ac labia mea, omnipotens Deus, qui labia Isaisae Prophetae calculomundasti ignito: ita me tua grata miseratione dignare mundare, ut sanctum Evangelium tuum digne valeam nuntiare. Per Christum Dominum nostrum, Amen.
I am wondering about the aliqotes (overtones) I can hear in the "ison". Am I right to hear there some kind of throat singing? Anyway this Kyrie is really something that really doesn´t sound according to the normal stereotypes about western choral.
Most of them from CDs I have bought. Some of them are either albums no longer in circulation or archival recordings I have from the performers themselves.
I always wonder how can they sing Old Roman Chant from 6th century. Are there any musical sources from this period? Or it's just Marcel Peres' imagination?
As far as I know, they do have manuscripts from the 6th - 13th century. Of course the interpretation of the music is directed by Marcel Peres but I really doubt all this is just his imagination.
@Callixtinus I'm not a specialist, but I haven't heard about manuscripts with neums older than 10th century (and for Ordinarium even later). Correct me if I'm wrong. For byzantine chant I am nearly sure, because lot of manuscripts were destroyed during iconoclastic period. For Latin I'm not sure. I know that Marcel Peres states that his ideas are based on sources (what sources?), but also I know that he was criticised for his eclectism. Nevertheless, I like the effect.
I don't see why Old Roman chant shouldn't have sounded somewhat like Byzantine chant. After all, the Italic peninsula was quite influenced by Byzantium well into the Middle Ages. A lot of their religious artwork seem to be, what I'd call at first glance, ikons. Chant also came to the "West" via St. Ambrose, who "imported" it from the Greeks (who I think may have based their style on the Jews, though this is just my conjecturing).
@Callixtinus There is no form of notation of music between the 5th and the 9th century in any Christian country. Even then, only a new system for what is today called Gregorian chants was developed, nothing to depict this music. As for the notation before the 6th century, most systems are undecipherable today. A few Roman and Greek ones have been deciphered but as of now, there is only one instrumental from Greece that has been fully reconstructed, only short parts of others remain
@swiatlowiekuiste the catholic church has quite good bibliothekes, for instance i have the songs of hildegard, written about 1150 and as far i know, it must be very good sources in the archices.
@swiatlowiekuiste My friend your doubt is not unwise, and 6th century is also a bit to early for having examples of written notation manuscripts. We Do have, however, musical sources from as early as 930, before that music was passed on orally. We do not have Any West Roman musical sources. But Kyrie Eleison could very well have remained more or less intact since the 6th century.
@swiatlowiekuiste My friend your doubt is not unwise, and 6th century is also a bit to early for having examples of written notation manuscripts. We Do have, however, musical sources from as early as 930, before that music was passed on orally. We do not have Any West Roman musical sources. But Kyrie Eleison could very well have remained more or less intact since the 6th century.
I think by "modern Greek" you mean "byzantine" right? Byzantine chant is not exactly modern. It is still used in modern Greece (and elsewhere) for liturgical purposes but it was formed as a distinctive form of liturgical music during the Middle Ages and developed to this day (for example the lyrics are still in early medieval Greek even in newly composed hymns).
Old Roman Chant also was adapted from Early Byzantine Chant. It kind of shows how the Eastern and Western parts of the Church remained intimately tied together.
I believe the tradition goes that St. Gregory had made a trip to the East and was inspired by the chant, and decided to adopt it for the West.
Of course, from our perspective, the Roman Church was Orthodox before the schism, and so it makes sense (to us) that pre-Schism they were very much like the Eastern Churches.
You can also hear the influence Byzantine Chant has had on Islamic Chant.
Byzantine Chant was also a descendent from Early Jewish Chant (makes sense right?) and so you can still hear similarities in the more "modern" Jewish Chant between it and Byzantine (and by extension, Old Roman Chant).
@Callixtinus Heh, not just modern Greece and elsewhere. It's used very often in most Byzantine Catholic churches, actually, which abound in not just Greece but America and other parts of the world (like my native country Hungary!) too,
beautiful. thank you!
eschecs 1 day ago
It gives me a sense of awe to hear such magnificent music. All respect to M. Peres!
eurovision97 1 week ago
Awesome....we do not sound like this at Mass. I love it...And I love my Catholic Church....
betsybk56 1 week ago
@betsybk56 The Western Rite used in most Catholic Churches was developed later. This is how the Catholic Church originally did its mass when it was still part of the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church (Eastern Orthodox Church)
slovoable 1 week ago
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Jesus is the Antichrist
youtube.com/watch?v=9jYpOGLws3k
TheGreatSquash 2 weeks ago
@jimryland ; Thank-you so much for taking the time to post, very informative, and appreciated. Thanks again....
DarkSecret48 3 weeks ago
Kyrie Eleison...Lord, Have mercy
PeaceMaker2695 3 weeks ago
Kyrie eleison are Greek language, not Roman.
1robinsong2 4 weeks ago
@1robinsong2 The Byzantines (Eastern Roman Empire) or the Basileia Rhōmaiōn (literally, Roman Empire) considered themselves the continuation of the Empire following the fall of the Western Empire.
Sovereign1023 3 weeks ago
I don't question the veracity of the tune or the tenor, I am quite certain the Catholic church has good record of that. Gregorian scholars for example are madmen about scrupulose history and I doubt they ever stopped singing it somewhere. What gets me is that the Greeks had 3 lousy lines left in the whole mass; Kyrie eliaison Christae elieison, Kyrie eleison. Then they lost those. 3 lines and they couldn't leave them alone-I mean really! :)
mrsoc 1 month ago
I sang this song when I was in the Choir of Sacred Heart of Jesus School in 1958 and it still inspires more devotion to the Blessed Holy Trinity!!
Micelli1947 2 months ago
This music is unbelievably beautiful. I thought I had just died and gone to heaven.
burkewhb 2 months ago
one of the best chants ive heard. almost aboriginal, the singing maintains a didgeridoo quality. some traces or arabesc music too. thank you callixtinus.
viago2 2 months ago
Kyrie eleison is in the Greek, as well as majority of icons and mosaics shown here. Also, singing is in Orthodox style, like we have in Greek, Bulgaria, Serbia or Russia up to now. Also word Roman should be changed to Christian.
XPBOJE 2 months ago
You can tend to use whatever you want but it's not true. They called them Greeks, Romans were / are Roman-Catholics. In the Ottoman Empire interpretation of nation was based on the religion ; Turks (islam), Romans (Catholic) and Greeks (Orthodox), in the time of constalation of fascist-modern Turkey by Ataturk and onwards nation in Turkey is interpreted on a basis of state; Turkish, Greek, Maccedonian, Italian --- as in Europe.
kosovir 2 months ago
@kosovir : During the time of the Eastern Empire, it's inhabitants referred to themselves as « romans » and to the westerners as « latins », mostly.
Hamsterzilla1349 2 months ago
The wonderful chant heard here is not "Roman" except in the broadest sense of the empire. It's origins lie in the Syriac-Byzantine Rite. The Western Church used the Kyrie as part of a litany at the beginning of Mass and Gregory notes in his writing that the Roman form was not ornate nor filled with tropes as was the case in Eastern Rites. It found its way into the ordinary of the Mass only after the Council of Trent where it was divorced from the litany and the "Christe Eleison" was added.
jimryland 3 months ago 9
@jimryland are you the most knowledgeable bloke on the internet? seems like it to me.
can i ask your opinion? which ave maria and who by? ive got my own idea but i reckon your knowledge might come up with a different conclusion. mind you, not sure jenkins pie jesu in your favourites is the best, needs a stronger boy.
viago2 2 months ago
@viago2 Thank you for the compliment but I am not all that smart... just a retired liturgist & church musician with some useless letters after his name. Musically,"Byzantine" is a collective word used to denote forms that originate within the Eastern Roman and Byzantine Empires. It's about as definitive as "Anglican". The modes are relatively the same, springing from the Hellenic formulas, but used in a different way.
jimryland 1 month ago
@viago2 I agree with you on the Jenkins. It's also a little repetitive. I couldn't begin to select an Ave Maria. Vittoria, Morales, Gibbons, all produced heavenly ones. For arguments sake I'll place Rachmaninoff's Bogoroditsye Devo from the Easter Vigil right near the top.
jimryland 1 month ago
@jimryland thanks, i was right, you are the font of all musical knowledge. i know little of catholic music, i just came here looking for cadfael music and one song lead to another. Of your suggestions i prefer the vittoria but came across an interesting offering by josquin des prez. my choice is probably too commercial and up-beat for you but i find it stirring, which, for me,is the point. that is westenra singing caccini's ave maria which aint even by caccini lol. id value your opinion.
viago2 1 month ago
Comment removed
Herdewelle 3 months ago in playlist Chant (Old Roman, Byzantine, Gothic, Gregorian, Cistercian)
There's no "Byzantine chant". The eastern part of the Roman Empire has always been Roman. "Byzantines" considered themselves Romans and Romans they were as the Eastern Empire survived until 1453. There's a continuity here.
abdf2050 3 months ago
I tend to use "East Roman" or "Constantinopolitan" rather than Byzantine to describe it. The Empire right up to its last day on 29 May 1453 was known as the Roman Empire. Turks still call any remaining Greek inhabitants of their land as "Romans."
mackbee628 3 months ago
Wow Tengriism is still alive!
IdelUralState 3 months ago
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these are chants paying respects to false gods and especially the ''mary'' and other very secretive things that re not fit to say here
121cheetah 4 months ago
@121cheetah what are you rabbiting on about? you sound like a paranoid schizophrenic. say what you mean, no ones going to hurt you. dumass
viago2 2 months ago
IF ONLY YOU KNEW WHAT THESE CHANTS SAY AND ESPECIALLY MEAN..IT CHILLING
121cheetah 4 months ago
@121cheetah you have got no idea what they are saying. if you did you would say.
viago2 2 months ago
@viago2 Fact is that no Greek Orthodox Christian, and no Roman Catholic born more than 10-15 years before Vatican II, could possibly NOT know that "Kyrie Eleison" means "Lord, have mercy!". This is the sort of thing even a lot of Protestants know. "Lord, have mercy!" is probably the oldest prayer in any language, and this is the Greek form of that prayer.
TheVizenos 2 months ago
@TheVizenos thank you very much for the information. from the age of 13 i worked for a Greek Cypriot man in his restaurant. he was a fiery chap who used to scream kyrie eleison at the staff (mostly me) about 10 times a day. i had always assumed it meant "fuck off you lazy bastard". its nice to know he was actually praying for me.
viago2 2 months ago 2
@viago2 i bet he wasn`t praiyng at the time ;))
casavod 1 month ago
@casavod lol no his eyes used to go bloodshot with rage!
viago2 1 month ago
@121cheetah They're saying "Kyrie, eleison". It means "Lord, have mercy".
mszegedy 2 months ago
This has a lot of the characteristics of Byzantine chant, especially with the idea of the bass holding the same note.
mleonetti1991 4 months ago
I am not learned in musical terminology, but something about this piece gives it the sense of teetering on the wall between major and minor keys. I find this fitting for a song begging for God's mercy. Absolutely beautiful.
fieldstonewall 4 months ago
It shows its roots with the earliest chants. Very close to the Eastern Roman and other chants that came from the east.
Salvatore218 4 months ago
sounds a little like a Joh Koukouzelis Byzantine chant of the 14th centure type in Byzantine chant and look for waht I just wrote
tony1234872 6 months ago
reminds me of a girl I know Kerry elesson
tony1234872 6 months ago
WHere can I find the lyrics/letra of this chant?
coemgenusthechanter 10 months ago
I thought Kyrie tropes came around closer to the high Middle Ages?
jgonnerman85 11 months ago
Panie, zmiłuj się...
Chryste, zmiłuj się...
Munda cor meum ac labia mea, omnipotens Deus, qui labia Isaisae Prophetae calculomundasti ignito: ita me tua grata miseratione dignare mundare, ut sanctum Evangelium tuum digne valeam nuntiare. Per Christum Dominum nostrum, Amen.
publikator1982 1 year ago
Hi, what are the verses in between the Kyrie Eleison? Are they from the Psalms?
panteleimon11 1 year ago
I am wondering about the aliqotes (overtones) I can hear in the "ison". Am I right to hear there some kind of throat singing? Anyway this Kyrie is really something that really doesn´t sound according to the normal stereotypes about western choral.
imatrOlda 1 year ago
where do you get all of your songs from????
majewskproductions 1 year ago
@majewskproductions :
Most of them from CDs I have bought. Some of them are either albums no longer in circulation or archival recordings I have from the performers themselves.
Callixtinus 1 year ago 3
@Callixtinus Honestly, you should be given a medal or something.
PepperoniWolf 6 days ago
@Callixtinus Thank you for such a spiritual trip into the medieval divine music!
Jeaniqueable 3 days ago
I always wonder how can they sing Old Roman Chant from 6th century. Are there any musical sources from this period? Or it's just Marcel Peres' imagination?
swiatlowiekuiste 1 year ago
@swiatlowiekuiste :
As far as I know, they do have manuscripts from the 6th - 13th century. Of course the interpretation of the music is directed by Marcel Peres but I really doubt all this is just his imagination.
Callixtinus 1 year ago 7
@Callixtinus I'm not a specialist, but I haven't heard about manuscripts with neums older than 10th century (and for Ordinarium even later). Correct me if I'm wrong. For byzantine chant I am nearly sure, because lot of manuscripts were destroyed during iconoclastic period. For Latin I'm not sure. I know that Marcel Peres states that his ideas are based on sources (what sources?), but also I know that he was criticised for his eclectism. Nevertheless, I like the effect.
swiatlowiekuiste 1 year ago
@Callixtinus
I don't see why Old Roman chant shouldn't have sounded somewhat like Byzantine chant. After all, the Italic peninsula was quite influenced by Byzantium well into the Middle Ages. A lot of their religious artwork seem to be, what I'd call at first glance, ikons. Chant also came to the "West" via St. Ambrose, who "imported" it from the Greeks (who I think may have based their style on the Jews, though this is just my conjecturing).
ToryAnarchist 1 year ago
The Grottaferrata chants you have posted are also interesting, as they are Byzantine, though not quite the Byzantine we are used to (i.e., "modern").
ToryAnarchist 1 year ago
@Callixtinus There is no form of notation of music between the 5th and the 9th century in any Christian country. Even then, only a new system for what is today called Gregorian chants was developed, nothing to depict this music. As for the notation before the 6th century, most systems are undecipherable today. A few Roman and Greek ones have been deciphered but as of now, there is only one instrumental from Greece that has been fully reconstructed, only short parts of others remain
SteinbrecherBack 4 weeks ago
@swiatlowiekuiste the catholic church has quite good bibliothekes, for instance i have the songs of hildegard, written about 1150 and as far i know, it must be very good sources in the archices.
psalmenlesung 1 year ago
@swiatlowiekuiste My friend your doubt is not unwise, and 6th century is also a bit to early for having examples of written notation manuscripts. We Do have, however, musical sources from as early as 930, before that music was passed on orally. We do not have Any West Roman musical sources. But Kyrie Eleison could very well have remained more or less intact since the 6th century.
NorseWinter 1 week ago in playlist Fordybelse
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@swiatlowiekuiste My friend your doubt is not unwise, and 6th century is also a bit to early for having examples of written notation manuscripts. We Do have, however, musical sources from as early as 930, before that music was passed on orally. We do not have Any West Roman musical sources. But Kyrie Eleison could very well have remained more or less intact since the 6th century.
NorseWinter 1 week ago in playlist Fordybelse
This sounds like one of the songs of my Byzantium chant album, umm
ComedyRoundTheCorner 1 year ago
Great!
JaredChacon 1 year ago
Old Roman sounds like Modern Greek chant. It's so chillingly amazing
nojoso 1 year ago 5
@nojoso :
I think by "modern Greek" you mean "byzantine" right? Byzantine chant is not exactly modern. It is still used in modern Greece (and elsewhere) for liturgical purposes but it was formed as a distinctive form of liturgical music during the Middle Ages and developed to this day (for example the lyrics are still in early medieval Greek even in newly composed hymns).
Callixtinus 1 year ago 8
@Callixtinus
Old Roman Chant also was adapted from Early Byzantine Chant. It kind of shows how the Eastern and Western parts of the Church remained intimately tied together.
I believe the tradition goes that St. Gregory had made a trip to the East and was inspired by the chant, and decided to adopt it for the West.
Of course, from our perspective, the Roman Church was Orthodox before the schism, and so it makes sense (to us) that pre-Schism they were very much like the Eastern Churches.
OrthoArchitectDU 1 year ago
@OrthoArchitectDU
You can also hear the influence Byzantine Chant has had on Islamic Chant.
Byzantine Chant was also a descendent from Early Jewish Chant (makes sense right?) and so you can still hear similarities in the more "modern" Jewish Chant between it and Byzantine (and by extension, Old Roman Chant).
OrthoArchitectDU 1 year ago
@Callixtinus Heh, not just modern Greece and elsewhere. It's used very often in most Byzantine Catholic churches, actually, which abound in not just Greece but America and other parts of the world (like my native country Hungary!) too,
mszegedy 2 months ago
Love your videos and chant. Thank you so much for sharing. Pax†
Frach438 1 year ago
thank you for upping!!
IstalkBananas 1 year ago