I'm an atheist with a strong dislike for religion but I of course know good people who are religious. I like the song both in message and in form. I think the message explains to me why I admire the Christians I do. It seems to say actions are more important than faith, or at least the best way to demonstrate your faith in Jesus is to live that way. Focus on the central message of love thy neighbor. If this were more common I wouldn't worry so much about Christianity
A response to "markbhorner" - interesting scene. But that is a very old argument. Not many contend that homosexuality is a sin from the OT. Most people address it from the NT.
Also, you don't need to invite me to the burning of your mother for wearing a garment woven from two different threads. Or the stoning of your brother for planting 2 different seeds next to each other. Get the picture? Thanks for reading.
Refer to Exodus 21:7: Please let me know when you decide to sell your youngest daughter into slavery; I'll get you a good price. While you're there, flip over to Chapter 35, verse 2: If you've ever worked on a Sunday, or supported a business that's open on Sunday, or done anything other than sit at home and read the Bible on a Sunday, I'm afraid you've got a death sentence on your hands. Ever toss around a football? Oops, you've just committed a sin by touching a pigskin (Leviticus 11:7).
A response to "freeeekyyy": Let me refer you to watch a scene from NBC's "The West Wing," where Martin Sheen quotes the Bible. Simply search Youtube for "Think Homosexuality is Wrong?"
This song is referencing what that one pastor did... he said something pretty crazyy,(i think it was about hunger in africa) followed by a curseword....and he then said something like " and whats sad is that most of you are more worried that i just cursed rather than (the crazy thing he said)...." I cant remember too well :)
He seems a little bitter and jaded. I'm not sure if discussing one's frustrations makes a person more honest than anyone else in their faith. What's more, it's possible to be VERY aware of the other atrocities of the world, and still disagree with what might seem to some to be "Less important" issues. I can go on a mission trip into the heart of darkness to distribute AIDs medicine, but still be concerned about my friend in the States who is a chronic liar.
Isn't it about Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist "church" though?
I thought that's why it's controversial. But glad Derek is a person speaking out against them and the heresy where others are less important or too afraid to.
FINALLY! A christian musician that is bold enough to declare, (without skirting around the point), the ACTUAL role of the jesus-follower in the modern day. The modern day queer is simply the tax collector, the beggar, the exiled of the ancient world.
THANK YOU Derek Webb for a fresh new look at the core commandment "Love your neighbor as yourself". This is what it's all about!
Freedom is not taken away from straight people if it is given to gay people. You're no less free if a gay couple can get married. This should be obvious.
The point of this song is that Christians should love and reach out to the homosexual community, not condemn them. Take a step back and look at the majority of Christian views on homosexuality. It's as though they are the unreachable (or undeserving of being reached) group of the world. We all need the love of Christ, homosexual and heterosexual alike.
@olimarcapt I see... but don´t you realize that nowadays some homossexual people just aren't fighting for respect, but are harassing Christians and demanding that Christians should deny their own faith and praise homossexualism? One can't disagree about homossexualism without being considered "homophobic" a priori... They are trying to destroy the core of the Christian foundation, the family, and they are doing that through discourses and laws (that is, through lies and the use of force).
@feanando i remember seeing all those cases of gays tearing families apart. Ohh thats right they have nothing to do with marriage falling apart. Divorce does, so why don't you go harp on that.
@TalmadgeG1 I QUITE AGREE WITH YOU. It wasn't the GLBT group who STARTED the destruction of families. There are a lot of factors (and actors) involved, such as sexism (both male chauvinism and feminism), divorce, the very attitude of my beloved Church, which didn't provide proper assistance to families, with love, teachings and attention especially to woman. But it was, mainly, the leftist - marxist thought, which instrumentalizes gay people to achieve its goals (revolution, different society).
@feanando Since you're so familiar with "leftist - marxist thought, share your personal experiences with it. Name names, places, and dates. Provide some actual proof, instead of right-wing propaganda and cherry-picking. If you can't do that, you come off sounding like someone who is looking for someone to hate, got their fingers bit by going after gays, and is now moving on to the next target. Your "beloved Church" is dying, thanks to people like you.
@droslovinia Listen, you're the only one with hate words in here. And if you are accusing me of being a liar, and you still need names and places, please visit the website Global Museum on Communism. You might learn something there about it. If even so you can't open your eyes and see evidences, I recommend the VICTIMS REGISTRY section. And you are right: my beloved Church is dying, as it always did, giving our lives (freely spending my time answering to you) 4 you to wake up from death to life.
@feanando So, you've been to a credible museum page? That's it? That's the depth of your experience with "leftist marxist thought?" No one accused you of being a liar, but you spoke as if you had an actual knowledge of what all leftists and marxists think, and an agenda that involves the gay community. So where is it actually proved? As an ordained minister in the "Church" that you love so much, I feel awake enough to at least want some sort of proof before casting aspersions on others.
To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
@feanando You say that homosexuals oppress Christians, but you have to recognize that the reverse is true so much of the time. Children are disowned, hated, and rejected by their own parents for who they are.
Fighting for equal rights is not using "force." No one is forcing anyone to do anything. The family is not destroyed when people who are already gay are treated equally. That's just fear mongering nonsense.
And since when has the core of Christianity been the family?
@kidwhocracked A real Christian would feel compassion for the homossexual condition, the same way he cries for his own sins, and would not disown such person the same way he doesn't disown himself... But accepting the person does not mean that therefore he must accept homossexualism as natural, the same way this Christian's sins are not to be accepted as love, do you understand this? And the gay movement is not fighting for equal rights; it is fighting for the inconditional acceptance of
@kidwhocracked homossexualism, no matter if you agree with it or not. It is trying to shove our freedom and force us to accept a particular worldview. Of course that family is destroyed when you say any human group should be called family: if everything is family, then there is no family definition anymore. This is logic, not fear. The core of Christianism has been family since Christmas, but family exists even before that, naturally. The problem is that this discourse against family takes the
@kidwhocracked problems that occurred due to the falibility of man (that we have been preeching for 2000 years), and states that "traditional family" was the cause of opression against woman. It is a big, big lie, a big manipulation of events to distort reality. Even in gay couples you will certainly find the same problems, fights, opression, etc. Therefore, this worldview is nothing but one thing: pure ideology, being imposed by law.
DEREK WEBB - "O que importa mais" - Cantor cristão fala em letra de música sobre a homofobia na igreja. Um tema que ainda é muito polêmico no meio cristão.
Big lie # 3: By saying SHIT, this fool will solve all the problems of the world.
Fool... This way you won´t solve the problem of the world, nor make us more conscient, nor do any good thing else...
C´mon, you big fool... If you are really a Christian, then, read and learn better your own faith before picking on it and saying so many useless words.
I can really see the devil through his words, for he is a liar.
Christians love homossexual people because they are sinners just like the rest of us. We love the sinners, not the sin. We will never defend HOMOSSEXUALITY, the same way we will never attack homossexual people - AS LONG AS THEY DO NOT TRY TO IMPOSE THE ACCEPTATION OF THEIR BEHAVIOR TO EVERYBODYELSE.
Big lie # 1: Interpreting the golden rule literally - "Treat people the way you want to be treated", and accuse christians of hypocrisy.
GREAT... then, we should respect psychopaths and do not forbid them to do what they want to do, because if we were psychopaths too, then we would like people let us free to kill.
This fool interprets the phrase in a wrong way to defend homossexuality and accuse Christians.
You all sit here and want to debate about this song and what it means or what Gods word means but what are you doing to follow Jesus and follow the word you say you believe in? Not angry with you all or anything but Christians love to speak and talk. We have learned to much about politics and have let go of Love.
Our male addiction to pornography, our female addiction to bitterness is equal to homosexuality. No where in the Word of God does it condemn the words Derek used in this song. Perhaps an argument can be made that it is not necessarily considering his audience and adding grace to the heart as ephesians 4 would direct, but seriously! Give this man of God an ear! His point is love without hypocrisy. Loud and clear bro!
@LukeDSimpson You see... the problem is that he was brainwashed with the modern speech of those who promote homossexualism and HE CERTAINLY DOES NOT KNOW THE CHRISTIAN FAITH PROFOUNDLY. He is just trying to please a lot of people to be loved.
We are all created in God's image, and God would never hate anything that was created in his image... especially gays. hate the sin, but love the sinner.
@ethurmond: You are right--Jesus was light in the darkness. He never condoned sin. But neither does DW. He is not saying homosexuality is ok. This song shows that, in regards to homosexuality, the Church is very much like the crowd ready to stone the adulteress. We've got our stones ready and we're screaming, "sinner!" over and over again. I think what Jesus did in John 8 is very much what He is calling us to do today with the gay community: drop our stones, stop accusing, and start loving.
I kind of want to laugh or maybe cry at those who have said, "I have no respect for Derek Webb..." Clearly what "matters more to you" is that he puppet only stuff the Church says is ok. Does it really bother you that he said "damn" or "shit?" Really? I bet you don't watch TV or movies then. Does it really bother you that he is standing up for gay people? Really? Jesus hung out with prostitutes and tax collectors. And what about the 50,000 dead? What are you doing about that?
I understand your point, but Jesus hung out with them to teach them about salvation and hopefully convert them. so they would repent. Remember His admonition to the woman at the well in John chapter 4: "Go and sin no more" and Luke chapter 13:5 Jesus said: "I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.” It's kind of a straw-man argument to use the explicatives as the counter-point.
I'm not reading all of the comments, so this may have been said already, but just for some context, Derek Webb wrote this song after he heard this quote by Tony Campolo:
“I have three things I'd like to say today. First, while you were sleeping last night, 30,000 kids died of starvation or diseases related to malnutrition. Second, most of you don't give a shit. What's worse is that you're more upset with the fact that I said ‘shit’ than the fact that 30,000 kids died last night.”
@ethurmond I am familiar with the emergent church and Tony Campolo's theological views, and I'm not here to argue about either of them. Regardless of feelings on both of those subjects, Campolo makes a very powerful point with that quote, and I'm just saying that's what this song is based on. That's it.
"Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone". Who are you to judge someone for what they do in their personal time? Have you not sinned?
I'm a pragmatic atheist. I respect most faiths for morality development, but the some of the Christian church ignores one of the most important phrases in the bible on a daily basis. The church failed on what I consider to be one of the most important teachings - accepting other people no questions asked.
Well the focus should not ONLY be homosexuality - But about the judging: we should only say what God has judged (no our own opinion)- The Bible does not say we should turn a blind eye to what God (not us) calls sin -Hebrews 13:4
"Marriage is honorable in every way, so husbands and wives should be faithful to each other. God will judge those who commit sexual sins, especially those who commit adultery." --I think we as a church should go after divorce just as strongly if not more so.
Derek is a very gifted singer, songwriter musician. He has always used his gifts for God and has written truly uplifting songs. Unfortunately, Derek missed the mark badly with this one.
Alright, I don't put gays on a higher level of sinners than everyone else, but here's my beef with this song. It's still sin, and I believe not telling them that because we're "loving" them isn't love at all. If I was about to walk off a cliff, I'd want someone to tell me. I may choose to continue walking, but at least someone told me it was there. The same could be said about eternity. If we know that someone's sinning and in need of a Savior, we need to tell them, and not keep quiet.
@Drummerboiz19 I am Christian first and gay second. I have the same beliefs as almost every Christian, except for who I love, who I didn't choose nor can change. When people say it's a sin, they are saying my entire life is a sin, because of some misinterpreted verses in the Bible. God loves and died for my sins as well, and I haven't even acted on it yet. Start worrying about matters that matter, because this one is already in his hands. Take care of what's going on today.
@yoplaitdude1807 I understand your position, but the Bible is clear on this issue. I don't want to speak from my own mind, so I'll just give you a couple of verses to read: 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. There is no place in Scripture that states that homosexuality is okay. The exact opposite is said.
@Drummerboiz19 and there is no place in the scriptures that uses the word "homosexual". If it does, do some research because thats a really faulty translation you're holding.
@yoplaitdude1807 I do not say this with any anger or malice, only love and concern: 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - Don’t you know that wicked people won’t inherit the kingdom of God? Stop deceiving yourselves! People who continue to commit sexual sins, who worship false gods, those who commit adultery, homosexuals, 10or thieves, those who are greedy or drunk, who use abusive language, or who rob people will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Read all of Chapt 6 for further info/context it's pretty clear
@ethurmond Please understand that the root Greek word you're quoting is a very rare word. No one knows what it means. The word is just as often translated as effeminate. Most scholars, before the 1950s, translated this as either catamites, boy prostitutes, or their masters. It was agreed that Paul also might have been talking about the worship of Aphrodite, in which members joined in orgies containing both sexes indiscriminately. How are any of these comprable the the current homosexual?
@ethurmond if your bible states the word "homosexual" then I will advise you to get a better translation of the sacred text. NO WHERE in the bible the word homosexual is used, and the greek translation of malakoi does not mean homosexual, for the most part it means shrine prostitute :)
I am frustrated with the Church as well, but I believe that this song is way over the top. I have lost virtually all respect for Derek Webb as a result of this song. It really sucks, musically and lyrically.
Lol this song is so ironic, its deemed "controversial" by the record label because its bashing christians, but Rage against the machine, tool, and system of a down have been around for much longer and have way better songs about things like this but christians dont pay attention until its shoved in their face and then they try to silence it anyway... lol @ derek webb, glhf
What I hear...We, I included, as Christians/people judge "sin" but sin is sin. I eat a cheeseburger and due to dietary shouldn't, I pass by the person on the street that really needs to hear the peace I may know about Jesus and don't, No, there is no level of sin and there is no grading scale. By the Word, my plank is larger than what I see in others. Christ died for it all. Try to be Christ like and see people, not sin BUT never be afraid to say I don't agree.
he is trying to make the point that more people care about that fact that he swore in this song instead of the fact that 50,000 people die every single day and thats a problem. its like this statement that a preacher made one day"i have three points to make today1)50,000people are going to hell today2)you dont give a shit about that3)you care more about what i said in the 2nd point than in the 1st" and the sad thing is that its true. im not saying ive never been like that but not rite you know?
I have no problem with saying that we as Christians should treat homosexuals with love even if we disagree with homosexuality, but what is he doing swearing twice in the song? That's my question.
Pray! His lyrics have displayed that he has been frustrated with the Church and the people of God for so long. He left and joined the unrepentant and their complaints are now his.
@pattiparks2 Not your place to judge. That is Gods. I am frustrated with the Church too. Because they do not seem to love the people whom God sent them to love. They argue and debate till there blue in the face, in comments, over youtube.
I think the song is to the gay-haters that call themselves christians. Haters. christians. I have friends and family who are gay. The only thing you can do in some cases, is love on them. They will not respond to anything else. Love the sinner.
iaya97: Accusing someone of purposely doing something is assumption, not fact. If you treat it as such, you are attacking Derek falsley, and hating on him. You don't know what his intentions are. He sickens you? wow. Really? Maybe, this song is to you.
I think the song is to the gay-haters that call themselves christians. Haters. christians. I have friends and family who are gay. The only thing you can do in some cases, is love on them. They will not respond to anything else. Love the sinner.
iaya97: Accusing someone of purposely doing something is assumption, not fact. If you treat it as such, you are attacking Derek falsley, and hating on him. You don't know what his intentions are. He sickens you? wow. Really? Maybe, this song is to you.
Honestly, this guy sickens me. He claims to be a Christian while swearing and being pro-homosexuality. The fact that he covers his mouth when he says "sh-t" shows that he only put that line in to be controversial, and is actually mocking people who live right and don't swear.
@iaya97 Live "right"? You don't know how he lives. And you are only proving the broader point he is making. Does that really matter to you? Does "shit" matter to you? You are missing the point. The point of what Christ was all about. Check that plank.
this song doesn't make me think about the "50,000 people who are dyin' today" it just makes me think about how stupid Derek Webb is and it actually "does" make me want to debate
Great music, great lyrics. And btw its not about the cussing, its about the flippin point! And after his label wouldn't let him use the song because of the cuss words, it says alot about the Christians and how they react to cussing even with a point so clear!
God knows the heart of man- man does not know the heart of man- God is the only 1 and the only ruler- and he loves us all. We are all one in Christ Jesus- LOVE THIS SONG!
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
The only reason people flock to this video is because a Christian used cuss words in a song.Using cuss words in a song is not ground breaking people.Now,he's just part of the 100's of secular artists that put cuss words in their songs.With or without the cuss words this song is not very good.
Now see here. The reason people are flocking to this song is because NO ONE out there in the Christian music scene is talking seriously about the way homosexuals are treated by Christ followers. Yeah, so Webb has the balls to curse in it a few times, and SOME people are fanatical about it for that reason....but those of us with brains appreciate the thought that went into this song. If you're going to make an unnecessary comment, maybe it's just better left unsaid.
@goonercrew08 christians and non-christians alike arent drawn to this video for the "cuss words." what a trivial thing to say... the video is an artistic statement about the hypocrisy that runs rampant in so many churches. Derek is quick to point out that true people of faith who follow Jesus' teachings aren't condemning gay people simply because they are gay. we are ALL made in god's image, and he's challening other christians to re-evaluate their thinking. bravo, derek webb.
controversial? yes. but it was a song ccm needed. the way christians treat gays is horrific. someone needed to address the subject. well done, sir. well done.
Might I edit that to say "the way *some* Christians treat gays" ? I'm a Christian (and so is Derek Webb) and I don't treat gay people like crap. I don't think Jesus would either.
i'm a christian as well but for 91% of people who aren't christian, the first thing they think of when they hear the word christian is anti-homosexual. i'm not the one saying christians treat gays bad. i'm going on what everyone else thinks. and they're right... sadly.
Right, I'm just saying - don't lump in every Christian with the folks who treat people like crap. I get that that is the (sadly often true) stereotype, but there are those who really do treat people kindly. If we really want to follow Jesus, we should treat people like he did - with respect, differences aside.
What a cool album title! Stockholm Syndrome is the tendency of those captive to empathize with their captors. So, who are we? The captive or the captors?
We are totally Captives of our own sin. It is apart of our flesh and who we are. And the only way to escape this captor of sin is through our savior Jesus Christ. Stockholm Syndrome is an amazing title, even if we know that we are captives it is so hard for many people to find salvation through Christ and step away from the sinful lives we live in a fallen world. Thank God we no longer have to be held captive to Sin and we can fight it daily in our lives as we follow after the light of Christ.
Perhaps it's controversial because it's art. In all the music that Believers create, they sometimes forget to create art. Art seems to be something that--after made--one stands back from it, looks at it and thinks about it...talks about it. I think he's done that. Words and deep human honesty can cause reflection, emotion and discussion. So, here we are. ;)
I think they are refering to the word Damn, and hows its about gay people and not in a negative light. Which to a Christian I could see how thats controversial. But really I think the controversy lies with the christian that needs to grow up mentally and basically wake up to the world around them.
You're an old Whalers fan? If so awesome. Are you from Worcester too because you referenced are old AHL team and our new one. Anyway I've always been liberal/progressive so I'm not really rebelling against anything. Just stating my opinions. Peace.
1 Corinthians 1:20 (New International Version) 20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
1 Corinthians 1:18-20 (New International Version) 18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
Isn't it amazing how the world fulfils prophecy, right on queue...
Not religious but Webb is pretty cool. Whats with all these fundies quoting bible verses. It just makes them seem as crazy as their beliefs are. C'mon people, you're smarter then that.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (New American Standard Bible) 9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
So this means, that people living on EARTH will have to give away their happiness, their freedom, their own believes, besides, who can say that those word is the truth and the path of God? Did a person went to heaven and came back to say thats the way? I Think not...maybe other people want to find happiness and place on earth, and God is so wonderful that he would understand that.
i think you might be misinterpreting the song. i'm not trying to argue; i just want to explain my understanding of the song. i feel that its a critique of the Christian establishment that doesn't practice it preaches. he is saying you treat people like crap because of their sexuality but there are more horrible things going on in the world like mass death, that should be more important to Christians rather than arguing about who Jesus was sent to save. Do what Christ said to do; Help Each Other
@darkpyper You hit the nail on the head on that one bud! Also he is talking about his friend and how his friend confronted him about his homosexuality
I dont mean to be disrespectful, but Jesus is that person you are talking about in your comment. He came from Heaven and said, "I am the way."
Right before He went to the cross he was praying to God and said,"Father, if there is any other way, then take this cup from me." IF there was even one other way for us to get to heaven apart from the forgiveness of sins by faith in Christ, then Jesus would not have had to die."
Please don't think that this is a hateful response. I type it in love ;)
Homosexuality isn't a sin; I showed this quite clearly in my earlier post. You haven't replied to it yet, nor have you accounted for the historical context (which is to say, the facts).
Watch: Ephesians 2:8-9 (New International Version)
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this NOT FROM YOURSELVES, it is the gift of God— 9NOT BY WORKS, so that no one can boast.
Our tendency is to want to come up with a reason God should save us. There is no reason, we are depraved at heart and wretched. God loves us enough to save us, while we were yet sinners! Unbelievable, and yet we are commanded to take God at His Word. Jesus was righteous, He took our sin
9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
People love to justify themselves by downplaying their own sin. This is a stealth attempt to justify themselves by works. I am no better or worse than a homosexual. I am called to love all people, regardless. But God is Holy.
jflo, Matthew 22:36-40 (New International Version) 36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
A sinner, without belief in Jesus Christ, is sent to Hell. At issue is not our sin, but our belief.
1) While Gnosticism is certainly a diverse movement, its primary argument, that matter is bad and the spiritual is good (to simplify things), is directly counter to the promotion of homosexual love. At any rate, whether or not Gnostics supported this is irrelevant. I can quote to you all sorts of prominent, early Christians that did not believe in eternal hell.
2) I am saved. I do not need to turn. I've been a Christian for fifteen years.
Romans 1... The Bible teaches homosexuality is an abomination before the Lord, so with that in mind, God still loves the homosexual, but hates the sin, right?
As you know, there are literally tens of thousands of gnostic traditions, writings, philosophies, practices, cults, groups, and organizations. Like it's close relative the "The Age Movement" it is difficult to find a dominant/coherent tradition or mode. Much like finding the longest piece of hay in a haystack.
Human knowledge and understanding are at the heart of both traditional and new gnostic teaching.
This is my last post to you. Got to get back to work! Turn, friend, and be saved.
SC, I recommend the following as a great synopsis and concise source:
The Howard Center, Marriage and Procreation, Allan C. Carlson, PhD
This essay is adapted from a Family Policy Lecture given to the Family Research Council, Washington, DC, on October 20, 2004. Allan Carlson is President of The Howard Center and Distinguished Fellow in Family Policy Studies at the Family Research Council.
Particularly the section on "Sex and Civilization" and "The New Gnostics"
That homosexuality is not a sin is not a false doctrine. You believe it is. I believe you're wrong.
I am not arguing this for the sake of controversy. I am arguing this for the sake of millions of great-souled homosexuals that Christ died to save. I am arguing for the sake of their full acceptance, instead of the prejudice resulting from a misinterpretation of Scripture.
I am committed to fighting prejudice against homosexuals in the church. That's my greatest social passion.
Sb, if I am a heretic, it is only in respect to your tradition. The position that homosexuality is a sin is very significant and large in the Christian church today. If you choose to call that a heresy, then go for it, but I think you're applying that word a bit too quickly.
Again, on the Gnosticism point, I find it far more likely that Gnostics would have been against homosexual commitment than for it. You've yet to provide a source.
I wonder if you adhere to the requirements for pastoral ministry and or eldership outlined in 1 Tim and Titus.
Husband of one wife? Above Reproach?
What about 1 Tim Ch 1?
1 Timothy 1:3-4 (New International Version) 3As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer 4nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work—which is by faith.
Satan also adheres to the vast majority of the Nicene Creed (minus refs. to mankind)
Arguing Orthodoxy with a "heretic" (not an insult, simple statement of fact) is like trying to convince a person he is a horse.
Gnosticism, as you likely know is filled with dualism and encompasses a wide variety of heresies. The manogamous homosexuality variant sought to avoid procreation without the very denigration you speak of. Look no further than Dan Brown and the Da Vinci Code re: gnosticism.
I am also saved, and am preparing to enter full-time pastoral ministry.
I am an orthodox Christian who fully adheres to the Nicene Creed.
Finally, the idea of monogamous, homosexual love is not Gnostic. The very idea of sexual love is something the Gnostics detested; it involved the body. Gnosticism was an early movement of thought that denigrated material creation and sought to escape into the spiritual realm. Gnostics would have hated the idea of homosexual love.
Finally found the source! ... for the orthodox Christians following the discussion:
This "monogamous homosexuality" false doctrine is actually a pervasive gnostic heresy found within numerous gnostic sources. Similar heretical writings have dogged the church even during Jesus lifetime. Even a passing reading of sampled gnostic writings confirm diametric opposition to any concept of Christian orthodoxy.
If I have time (likely not) I will post excepts. A google search nets some info.
What you fail to recognize is that you are made in God's image, and if, in fact, you believe in Jesus Christ completely, then God sees you with the righteousness of Jesus, not your homosexuality.
While clarifying homosexuality is important, it is not nearly as important as recognizing that not one of us it righteous. It is irrelavant. If you cling to your sin, you love yourself. Trust in God instead, who has given us a way to live in spite of ANY sin. Every hair on your head is numbered!
I'm not sure if this happens where you are, but here every year a hunter shoots a human being, having mistaken him/her for a deer.
Statistics show that the longer a hunter sits in the woods alone, thinking deer, he eventually sees anything that moves as "deer". Meanwhile a 6 year old child standing next to him cries out, "Look Dad, a man is walking over there". You have tunnel vision.
SC, what you are doing is trying to prove to God that you are in fact worthy. Futile.
Scripture is easily taken out of context. You left out verse 23, which identifies these person as idolaters. Their sin is not their homosexuality; that's just a side detail. their sin is their idolatry. Their suppression of truth.
We have a picture here of promiscuous, non-committal homosexual sex. Promiscuous, non-committal heterosexual sex is just as much a sin.
Paul doesn't talk about monogamous, committed homosexual sex, which is pure and good and blessed of God.
32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
The Truth, beloved. You were made in God's Image...
29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.
Romans 1:24-26 (New International Version) 24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. 26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.
I've clearly shown that the Scripture account does not condemn homosexuality. There is no other argument given for homosexuality being a sin except from Scripture.
The Church is moving forward on this subject. There will be a few generations where this prejudice remains deeply entrenched, but with time, the Church will accept those who are being unfairly downtrodden through an improper reading of Scripture.
The Church is built on the rock of Jesus Christ and can never fail! In fact, it is Jesus alone who took the burden of our sin and presents us spotless and pure. We brought nothing to the cross but sin, and He saved us in spite of ourselves. All we inadequate.
Young people, I love each of you and care about your salvation. Dragging profanity and sin into the church is not the answer. The Devil pushes to extremes...
The message of the Gospel is not profanity and favored sins, but love.
This song is brilliant. Too many of you are getting caught up in arguing your theological points and missing the message of this song-you wont change an opinion of youtube!
We as a Church [universal] are failing, in the USA- the most segregated institution is the Church,Fwe pride ourselves in separating ourselves from sin, and miss the message in that we are to be SALT and LIGHT to ALL people, regardless of gender, race, sexuality, socioeconomic backgrounds -we need to simply live the Gospel.
If you want to believe that homosexuality is sinful, then you will surely read the verses in that way (accordingly, you can make the same argument of me). I would point out, however, that for every other thing the Bible calls a 'sin', it is easy to craft an argument that does not rely upon Scripture to show that it is morally evil. This is not possible with homosexuality. If the verses fall, as I have shown they do, then homosexuality must be accepted.
As for your dealing with the verses, Leviticus is not weakened a bit. It's shown for what it is: a cultural comment that no longer applies.
I've already displayed the historical context of the Pauline denigration of 'homosexual offense'. It certainly does not show that the early church did not approve of homosexuality. The early church, prior to Paul, was united on practically nothing; it was thoroughly amorphous, except for the words of Jesus. Paul is clearly referring to cultic homosexuality.
I do have the Spirit, friend. I am a Christian of fifteen years, preparing to enter a life of full-time ministry. My opinion on this subject is not from a knee-jerk reaction. It is through education, through reflection, through study, through prayer.
Jesus never spoke against homosexuality, it should be pointed out.
There are large segments of history where Christian orthodoxy was supremely, socially acceptable, to the point where people who disagreed were burned at the stake.
We can develop reasons against pedophilia and bestiality through ethical reflection and analysis. We can do no such thing for homosexuality.
The Church has been wrong on a number of points in history. Lest we forget Galileo. I would also point out the strong trend of Universalism in the early church, which was not considered 'anathema' until the time of Augustine.
It's very easy to ignore someone if you label them as affected by 'sin', but for the sake of argument, that's not very convincing.
But there is absolutely no support in either the secular record, nor church writings considered canonical, to support your position that the church considered homosexuality anything but sin.
Whether you use the Septuagint or Masoretic Text, be careful with your Greek scholars and context. You are correct that The Law, in ceremonial aspects, was abolished as Paul discussed in detail. This weakens Lev 18:22, etc. a bit, understood.
The answer though (regarding Homosexual Offenders) lies in the obvious. The early church, and the earliest translations, councils, and later church orthodoxy, patently rejected homosexuality as sin.
Second, one can never, ever argue a person into being a Christian. A Christian is chosen by God and is indwelled by His Holy Spirit.
I can do no more for you than to urge you to reject your sin, now an idol for you, of homosexuality. Turn to the cross carrying nothing through the narrow gate. And be saved by Jesus perfect sacrifice for your sin on the cross. Receive His righteousness by God's grace. Or face Hell without Him.
I'm afraid that you may not have the Holy Spirit, so I cannot help you.
Twenty five years ago I learned these two powerful facts.
Christian orthodoxy is never "popular" by social standards. In fact throughout church history it is often the minority positions that are retained by the true church. This follows from the obvious...if Jesus words were popular, they would not have crucified Him.
I'm not sure if you are aware of it Suitecake, but nearly all, if not all, of your "arguments" below apply to pedophia and beastiality. The Bible can be made to say anything a depraved human mind wants it to say.
The churches mentioned show political bias in this fact: When sin of all sorts swells in modern society, their positions change. Logically this indicates socialization, a phenomena experienced muliple times in church history.
Finally, the sin of Sodom was inhospitality, not homosexuality. At any rate, their homosexual practices (which are certainly implied) are characteristic of sin. Were they heterosexuals and acted in the same way, their sin would be neither less nor greater.
The citizens of those cities were not exactly paragons of marriage.
In the New Testament, homosexuality is ALWAYS discussed in the context of another, accompanying sin. In Romans 1, it is idolatry. In the other NT, Pauline verses, it is 'prostitution'. Paul was writing to a culture in which homosexual rituals in cultic worship was commonplace. When this historical context is understood, it becomes clear that Paul is condemning these homosexual, cultic practices, not homosexuality itself.
There is no verse in Scripture that condemns monogamous, homosexual love.
As for Scripture, there are two classes of verses on homosexuality: one, the 'abomination' verses (OT). Two, the 'improper homosexuality', or 'homosexual offenders' verses (NT).
Abomination, in the Hebraic texts, merely means 'what is not culturally normal'. Eating shrimp was an abomination. This applied to that culture only, and should not be seen as an 'eternally binding' law.
Perhaps your denomination, or tradition, teaches that the acceptance of homosexuality is a heresy. However, such a sweeping claim of Christianity as a whole is no longer proper. The Episcopal and Lutheran Churches have both openly accepted practicing homosexuals into their clergy. The Presbyterian Church is a few votes, and few years, away from making a similar move, as is the United Methodist Church.
This is certainly controversial, but the acceptance of homosexuality is hardly minor position.
14Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God.
Let's give these a try then, for starting point: New Testament... Romans 1:18-28 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Luke 10:1-12 (Jesus condemns Sodom/Gomorrah) Matthew 11:20-24 (same) others as well... Old Testament... Entire book of Genesis, Gen 19! Leviticus 18:22 others as well... literally hundreds of derivative references. Beloved, I have studied the Bible for a lifetime, I am not easily swayed by heresy. Do not make an idol of homosexuality, go to the cross for forgiveness.
That said, I'm not interested in engaging in a debate with you on Scripture. I know exactly what verses you can bring out on me. I've studied them, and, when taking into account the historical context with which they were written, and thus, the meaning which the author originally intended, I have concluded that the Bible does not condemn homosexuality as eternally wrong.
Let us, at any rate, agree that love and unity are to be encouraged.
False teachers are easy when you use God's Word... compare prior comment to scripture.
1 John 1:8-10 (New International Version) 8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
I'm an atheist with a strong dislike for religion but I of course know good people who are religious. I like the song both in message and in form. I think the message explains to me why I admire the Christians I do. It seems to say actions are more important than faith, or at least the best way to demonstrate your faith in Jesus is to live that way. Focus on the central message of love thy neighbor. If this were more common I wouldn't worry so much about Christianity
rugbyguy59 2 weeks ago
Why can't I find this song on itunes?
DS6FILMS 1 month ago
@DS6FILMS its not on itunes. i think you can only get it when you buy the hard copy of the album
TheRayrayjoyjoy 1 week ago
Please, please watch this Derek Webb! Jesus loves you more than you know! /watch?v=tuS9WoiZJ_E
MrSir305 1 month ago
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As an athiest I think you're all nuts. Equal rights to all. As that is the most fair and humane way to act. Unlike your "god" It seems.
MrDaziam 1 month ago
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MrDaziam 1 month ago
15 people care more about the fact that he swore in this song instead of the fact that 50,000 people die every single day.
powderedsugar07 2 months ago
A response to "markbhorner" - interesting scene. But that is a very old argument. Not many contend that homosexuality is a sin from the OT. Most people address it from the NT.
rcmowen 2 months ago
Also, you don't need to invite me to the burning of your mother for wearing a garment woven from two different threads. Or the stoning of your brother for planting 2 different seeds next to each other. Get the picture? Thanks for reading.
markbhorner 3 months ago
Refer to Exodus 21:7: Please let me know when you decide to sell your youngest daughter into slavery; I'll get you a good price. While you're there, flip over to Chapter 35, verse 2: If you've ever worked on a Sunday, or supported a business that's open on Sunday, or done anything other than sit at home and read the Bible on a Sunday, I'm afraid you've got a death sentence on your hands. Ever toss around a football? Oops, you've just committed a sin by touching a pigskin (Leviticus 11:7).
markbhorner 3 months ago
A response to "freeeekyyy": Let me refer you to watch a scene from NBC's "The West Wing," where Martin Sheen quotes the Bible. Simply search Youtube for "Think Homosexuality is Wrong?"
markbhorner 3 months ago
If he's saying Christians mistreat gays, he's right. Especially fundamentalists. If he's saying homosexuality's okay, he's wrong.
freeeekyyy 3 months ago
This song is referencing what that one pastor did... he said something pretty crazyy,(i think it was about hunger in africa) followed by a curseword....and he then said something like " and whats sad is that most of you are more worried that i just cursed rather than (the crazy thing he said)...." I cant remember too well :)
tforeignguy 5 months ago
He seems a little bitter and jaded. I'm not sure if discussing one's frustrations makes a person more honest than anyone else in their faith. What's more, it's possible to be VERY aware of the other atrocities of the world, and still disagree with what might seem to some to be "Less important" issues. I can go on a mission trip into the heart of darkness to distribute AIDs medicine, but still be concerned about my friend in the States who is a chronic liar.
ChinaLizard 5 months ago 5
ASCO
likotero 6 months ago
i cant find this on itunes... :(
dragonslayer1346 7 months ago
Isn't it about Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist "church" though?
I thought that's why it's controversial. But glad Derek is a person speaking out against them and the heresy where others are less important or too afraid to.
Praying for you, bud! Fight the good fight.
RossCooper8 7 months ago
FINALLY! A christian musician that is bold enough to declare, (without skirting around the point), the ACTUAL role of the jesus-follower in the modern day. The modern day queer is simply the tax collector, the beggar, the exiled of the ancient world.
THANK YOU Derek Webb for a fresh new look at the core commandment "Love your neighbor as yourself". This is what it's all about!
Alaudida 8 months ago 11
What is so controversial? God is love. We should try and follow His many examples, regardless of what others say, think or do.
zabones 9 months ago 5
@bigtopbabe I really think you missed the meaning of the song..
Loganamj1 10 months ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Vote up for GAY CHRISTIANS!
bigtopbabe 11 months ago
He graduated from Klein High school!!! my school :]
arif331 11 months ago
Freedom is not taken away from straight people if it is given to gay people. You're no less free if a gay couple can get married. This should be obvious.
kidwhocracked 11 months ago 9
The point of this song is that Christians should love and reach out to the homosexual community, not condemn them. Take a step back and look at the majority of Christian views on homosexuality. It's as though they are the unreachable (or undeserving of being reached) group of the world. We all need the love of Christ, homosexual and heterosexual alike.
olimarcapt 1 year ago
@olimarcapt I see... but don´t you realize that nowadays some homossexual people just aren't fighting for respect, but are harassing Christians and demanding that Christians should deny their own faith and praise homossexualism? One can't disagree about homossexualism without being considered "homophobic" a priori... They are trying to destroy the core of the Christian foundation, the family, and they are doing that through discourses and laws (that is, through lies and the use of force).
feanando 1 year ago
@feanando i remember seeing all those cases of gays tearing families apart. Ohh thats right they have nothing to do with marriage falling apart. Divorce does, so why don't you go harp on that.
TalmadgeG1 1 year ago
@TalmadgeG1 I QUITE AGREE WITH YOU. It wasn't the GLBT group who STARTED the destruction of families. There are a lot of factors (and actors) involved, such as sexism (both male chauvinism and feminism), divorce, the very attitude of my beloved Church, which didn't provide proper assistance to families, with love, teachings and attention especially to woman. But it was, mainly, the leftist - marxist thought, which instrumentalizes gay people to achieve its goals (revolution, different society).
feanando 1 year ago
@feanando Since you're so familiar with "leftist - marxist thought, share your personal experiences with it. Name names, places, and dates. Provide some actual proof, instead of right-wing propaganda and cherry-picking. If you can't do that, you come off sounding like someone who is looking for someone to hate, got their fingers bit by going after gays, and is now moving on to the next target. Your "beloved Church" is dying, thanks to people like you.
droslovinia 1 year ago
@droslovinia Listen, you're the only one with hate words in here. And if you are accusing me of being a liar, and you still need names and places, please visit the website Global Museum on Communism. You might learn something there about it. If even so you can't open your eyes and see evidences, I recommend the VICTIMS REGISTRY section. And you are right: my beloved Church is dying, as it always did, giving our lives (freely spending my time answering to you) 4 you to wake up from death to life.
feanando 1 year ago
@feanando So, you've been to a credible museum page? That's it? That's the depth of your experience with "leftist marxist thought?" No one accused you of being a liar, but you spoke as if you had an actual knowledge of what all leftists and marxists think, and an agenda that involves the gay community. So where is it actually proved? As an ordained minister in the "Church" that you love so much, I feel awake enough to at least want some sort of proof before casting aspersions on others.
droslovinia 1 year ago
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feanando 1 year ago
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feanando 1 year ago
@droslovinia "Ifeel awake enough":
To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
feanando 1 year ago
@droslovinia
“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
feanando 1 year ago
@feanando You say that homosexuals oppress Christians, but you have to recognize that the reverse is true so much of the time. Children are disowned, hated, and rejected by their own parents for who they are.
Fighting for equal rights is not using "force." No one is forcing anyone to do anything. The family is not destroyed when people who are already gay are treated equally. That's just fear mongering nonsense.
And since when has the core of Christianity been the family?
kidwhocracked 11 months ago
@kidwhocracked A real Christian would feel compassion for the homossexual condition, the same way he cries for his own sins, and would not disown such person the same way he doesn't disown himself... But accepting the person does not mean that therefore he must accept homossexualism as natural, the same way this Christian's sins are not to be accepted as love, do you understand this? And the gay movement is not fighting for equal rights; it is fighting for the inconditional acceptance of
feanando 11 months ago
@kidwhocracked homossexualism, no matter if you agree with it or not. It is trying to shove our freedom and force us to accept a particular worldview. Of course that family is destroyed when you say any human group should be called family: if everything is family, then there is no family definition anymore. This is logic, not fear. The core of Christianism has been family since Christmas, but family exists even before that, naturally. The problem is that this discourse against family takes the
feanando 11 months ago
@kidwhocracked problems that occurred due to the falibility of man (that we have been preeching for 2000 years), and states that "traditional family" was the cause of opression against woman. It is a big, big lie, a big manipulation of events to distort reality. Even in gay couples you will certainly find the same problems, fights, opression, etc. Therefore, this worldview is nothing but one thing: pure ideology, being imposed by law.
feanando 11 months ago
I'm trying to figure out why he put the black mark underneith his eye.
olimarcapt 1 year ago
@olimarcapt Because he's about to play football.
PHILLYandBILLY 3 months ago
DEREK WEBB - "O que importa mais" - Cantor cristão fala em letra de música sobre a homofobia na igreja. Um tema que ainda é muito polêmico no meio cristão.
zakfaith 1 year ago
Big lie # 3: By saying SHIT, this fool will solve all the problems of the world.
Fool... This way you won´t solve the problem of the world, nor make us more conscient, nor do any good thing else...
C´mon, you big fool... If you are really a Christian, then, read and learn better your own faith before picking on it and saying so many useless words.
You could start it here: Matthew 7: 3-5.
Good luck.
feanando 1 year ago
Big lie # 2: Christians hate homossexual people.
I can really see the devil through his words, for he is a liar.
Christians love homossexual people because they are sinners just like the rest of us. We love the sinners, not the sin. We will never defend HOMOSSEXUALITY, the same way we will never attack homossexual people - AS LONG AS THEY DO NOT TRY TO IMPOSE THE ACCEPTATION OF THEIR BEHAVIOR TO EVERYBODYELSE.
feanando 1 year ago
Big lie # 1: Interpreting the golden rule literally - "Treat people the way you want to be treated", and accuse christians of hypocrisy.
GREAT... then, we should respect psychopaths and do not forbid them to do what they want to do, because if we were psychopaths too, then we would like people let us free to kill.
This fool interprets the phrase in a wrong way to defend homossexuality and accuse Christians.
feanando 1 year ago
Thank god for the liberal arts:)
PaulCookeMusic 1 year ago
You all sit here and want to debate about this song and what it means or what Gods word means but what are you doing to follow Jesus and follow the word you say you believe in? Not angry with you all or anything but Christians love to speak and talk. We have learned to much about politics and have let go of Love.
CubsnHarvs 1 year ago
Our male addiction to pornography, our female addiction to bitterness is equal to homosexuality. No where in the Word of God does it condemn the words Derek used in this song. Perhaps an argument can be made that it is not necessarily considering his audience and adding grace to the heart as ephesians 4 would direct, but seriously! Give this man of God an ear! His point is love without hypocrisy. Loud and clear bro!
5ontheglide 1 year ago
Sometimes it is the choir that needs the preaching too. Thanks derek!
5ontheglide 1 year ago
I believe the whole Bible. Is that a problem with you, Derek?
LukeDSimpson 1 year ago
@LukeDSimpson You see... the problem is that he was brainwashed with the modern speech of those who promote homossexualism and HE CERTAINLY DOES NOT KNOW THE CHRISTIAN FAITH PROFOUNDLY. He is just trying to please a lot of people to be loved.
feanando 1 year ago
@feanando hahaha. Yes, that is exactly what I meant by "believing the whole Bible."
LukeDSimpson 1 year ago
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We are all created in God's image, and God would never hate anything that was created in his image... especially gays. hate the sin, but love the sinner.
cougarpride92 1 year ago
@ethurmond: You are right--Jesus was light in the darkness. He never condoned sin. But neither does DW. He is not saying homosexuality is ok. This song shows that, in regards to homosexuality, the Church is very much like the crowd ready to stone the adulteress. We've got our stones ready and we're screaming, "sinner!" over and over again. I think what Jesus did in John 8 is very much what He is calling us to do today with the gay community: drop our stones, stop accusing, and start loving.
rawbeefcity 1 year ago 2
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rawbeefcity 1 year ago
I kind of want to laugh or maybe cry at those who have said, "I have no respect for Derek Webb..." Clearly what "matters more to you" is that he puppet only stuff the Church says is ok. Does it really bother you that he said "damn" or "shit?" Really? I bet you don't watch TV or movies then. Does it really bother you that he is standing up for gay people? Really? Jesus hung out with prostitutes and tax collectors. And what about the 50,000 dead? What are you doing about that?
rawbeefcity 1 year ago 2
@rawbeefcity
I understand your point, but Jesus hung out with them to teach them about salvation and hopefully convert them. so they would repent. Remember His admonition to the woman at the well in John chapter 4: "Go and sin no more" and Luke chapter 13:5 Jesus said: "I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.” It's kind of a straw-man argument to use the explicatives as the counter-point.
ethurmond 1 year ago
@ethurmond
36"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
37And He said to him, " '(A)YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
38"This is the great and foremost commandment.
39"The second is like it, '(B)YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
40"(C)On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."
That's all I can say, love your neighbor, regardless.
yoplaitdude1807 1 year ago
I'm not reading all of the comments, so this may have been said already, but just for some context, Derek Webb wrote this song after he heard this quote by Tony Campolo:
“I have three things I'd like to say today. First, while you were sleeping last night, 30,000 kids died of starvation or diseases related to malnutrition. Second, most of you don't give a shit. What's worse is that you're more upset with the fact that I said ‘shit’ than the fact that 30,000 kids died last night.”
BeautifulLumpsOfCoal 1 year ago 5
@BeautifulLumpsOfCoal
Tony Campolo is part of the emergent church and likely a heretic - see wretchedradio dotcom
ethurmond 1 year ago
@ethurmond I am familiar with the emergent church and Tony Campolo's theological views, and I'm not here to argue about either of them. Regardless of feelings on both of those subjects, Campolo makes a very powerful point with that quote, and I'm just saying that's what this song is based on. That's it.
BeautifulLumpsOfCoal 1 year ago
"Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone". Who are you to judge someone for what they do in their personal time? Have you not sinned?
I'm a pragmatic atheist. I respect most faiths for morality development, but the some of the Christian church ignores one of the most important phrases in the bible on a daily basis. The church failed on what I consider to be one of the most important teachings - accepting other people no questions asked.
Judgement is my sin. I cast no stones. Gr8 song.
ihasmario 1 year ago 2
@ihasmario
Well the focus should not ONLY be homosexuality - But about the judging: we should only say what God has judged (no our own opinion)- The Bible does not say we should turn a blind eye to what God (not us) calls sin -Hebrews 13:4
"Marriage is honorable in every way, so husbands and wives should be faithful to each other. God will judge those who commit sexual sins, especially those who commit adultery." --I think we as a church should go after divorce just as strongly if not more so.
ethurmond 1 year ago
Derek is a very gifted singer, songwriter musician. He has always used his gifts for God and has written truly uplifting songs. Unfortunately, Derek missed the mark badly with this one.
irvinetustin 1 year ago
Alright, I don't put gays on a higher level of sinners than everyone else, but here's my beef with this song. It's still sin, and I believe not telling them that because we're "loving" them isn't love at all. If I was about to walk off a cliff, I'd want someone to tell me. I may choose to continue walking, but at least someone told me it was there. The same could be said about eternity. If we know that someone's sinning and in need of a Savior, we need to tell them, and not keep quiet.
Drummerboiz19 1 year ago
@Drummerboiz19 I am Christian first and gay second. I have the same beliefs as almost every Christian, except for who I love, who I didn't choose nor can change. When people say it's a sin, they are saying my entire life is a sin, because of some misinterpreted verses in the Bible. God loves and died for my sins as well, and I haven't even acted on it yet. Start worrying about matters that matter, because this one is already in his hands. Take care of what's going on today.
yoplaitdude1807 1 year ago
@yoplaitdude1807 I understand your position, but the Bible is clear on this issue. I don't want to speak from my own mind, so I'll just give you a couple of verses to read: 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. There is no place in Scripture that states that homosexuality is okay. The exact opposite is said.
Drummerboiz19 1 year ago
@Drummerboiz19 and there is no place in the scriptures that uses the word "homosexual". If it does, do some research because thats a really faulty translation you're holding.
joey07311984 1 year ago
@yoplaitdude1807 I do not say this with any anger or malice, only love and concern: 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - Don’t you know that wicked people won’t inherit the kingdom of God? Stop deceiving yourselves! People who continue to commit sexual sins, who worship false gods, those who commit adultery, homosexuals, 10or thieves, those who are greedy or drunk, who use abusive language, or who rob people will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Read all of Chapt 6 for further info/context it's pretty clear
ethurmond 1 year ago
@ethurmond Please understand that the root Greek word you're quoting is a very rare word. No one knows what it means. The word is just as often translated as effeminate. Most scholars, before the 1950s, translated this as either catamites, boy prostitutes, or their masters. It was agreed that Paul also might have been talking about the worship of Aphrodite, in which members joined in orgies containing both sexes indiscriminately. How are any of these comprable the the current homosexual?
Sickleripper 1 year ago
@ethurmond if your bible states the word "homosexual" then I will advise you to get a better translation of the sacred text. NO WHERE in the bible the word homosexual is used, and the greek translation of malakoi does not mean homosexual, for the most part it means shrine prostitute :)
joey07311984 1 year ago
I am frustrated with the Church as well, but I believe that this song is way over the top. I have lost virtually all respect for Derek Webb as a result of this song. It really sucks, musically and lyrically.
JakeHerrington 1 year ago
I love this song.
anwbanana 1 year ago
Lol this song is so ironic, its deemed "controversial" by the record label because its bashing christians, but Rage against the machine, tool, and system of a down have been around for much longer and have way better songs about things like this but christians dont pay attention until its shoved in their face and then they try to silence it anyway... lol @ derek webb, glhf
Cyricc 1 year ago
What I hear...We, I included, as Christians/people judge "sin" but sin is sin. I eat a cheeseburger and due to dietary shouldn't, I pass by the person on the street that really needs to hear the peace I may know about Jesus and don't, No, there is no level of sin and there is no grading scale. By the Word, my plank is larger than what I see in others. Christ died for it all. Try to be Christ like and see people, not sin BUT never be afraid to say I don't agree.
barnkatbabe 1 year ago
he is trying to make the point that more people care about that fact that he swore in this song instead of the fact that 50,000 people die every single day and thats a problem. its like this statement that a preacher made one day"i have three points to make today1)50,000people are going to hell today2)you dont give a shit about that3)you care more about what i said in the 2nd point than in the 1st" and the sad thing is that its true. im not saying ive never been like that but not rite you know?
SniperMonkey201 1 year ago 11
Comment removed
PHILLYandBILLY 3 months ago
I have no problem with saying that we as Christians should treat homosexuals with love even if we disagree with homosexuality, but what is he doing swearing twice in the song? That's my question.
IBelieveToMySoul 1 year ago
Pray! His lyrics have displayed that he has been frustrated with the Church and the people of God for so long. He left and joined the unrepentant and their complaints are now his.
There go I yet by the grace of God!
pattiparks2 1 year ago
@pattiparks2 Not your place to judge. That is Gods. I am frustrated with the Church too. Because they do not seem to love the people whom God sent them to love. They argue and debate till there blue in the face, in comments, over youtube.
Theshadowrazor 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
I think the song is to the gay-haters that call themselves christians. Haters. christians. I have friends and family who are gay. The only thing you can do in some cases, is love on them. They will not respond to anything else. Love the sinner.
iaya97: Accusing someone of purposely doing something is assumption, not fact. If you treat it as such, you are attacking Derek falsley, and hating on him. You don't know what his intentions are. He sickens you? wow. Really? Maybe, this song is to you.
meconley23 1 year ago
I think the song is to the gay-haters that call themselves christians. Haters. christians. I have friends and family who are gay. The only thing you can do in some cases, is love on them. They will not respond to anything else. Love the sinner.
iaya97: Accusing someone of purposely doing something is assumption, not fact. If you treat it as such, you are attacking Derek falsley, and hating on him. You don't know what his intentions are. He sickens you? wow. Really? Maybe, this song is to you.
meconley23 1 year ago 4
Honestly, this guy sickens me. He claims to be a Christian while swearing and being pro-homosexuality. The fact that he covers his mouth when he says "sh-t" shows that he only put that line in to be controversial, and is actually mocking people who live right and don't swear.
iaya97 1 year ago
@iaya97 Live "right"? You don't know how he lives. And you are only proving the broader point he is making. Does that really matter to you? Does "shit" matter to you? You are missing the point. The point of what Christ was all about. Check that plank.
ConstantSurprises 1 year ago
this song doesn't make me think about the "50,000 people who are dyin' today" it just makes me think about how stupid Derek Webb is and it actually "does" make me want to debate
nicholefriedrich 1 year ago
Beautiful...sad...inspiring...awesome
mcc1789 1 year ago
only 42,036 views. this song is great. like a david gray song...only better:)
gray802 1 year ago
Great music, great lyrics. And btw its not about the cussing, its about the flippin point! And after his label wouldn't let him use the song because of the cuss words, it says alot about the Christians and how they react to cussing even with a point so clear!
willyisrich 1 year ago 3
this song is so true
Tcho713 1 year ago
God knows the heart of man- man does not know the heart of man- God is the only 1 and the only ruler- and he loves us all. We are all one in Christ Jesus- LOVE THIS SONG!
MissSofa 1 year ago 4
This comment has received too many negative votes show
The only reason people flock to this video is because a Christian used cuss words in a song.Using cuss words in a song is not ground breaking people.Now,he's just part of the 100's of secular artists that put cuss words in their songs.With or without the cuss words this song is not very good.
goonercrew08 1 year ago
Now see here. The reason people are flocking to this song is because NO ONE out there in the Christian music scene is talking seriously about the way homosexuals are treated by Christ followers. Yeah, so Webb has the balls to curse in it a few times, and SOME people are fanatical about it for that reason....but those of us with brains appreciate the thought that went into this song. If you're going to make an unnecessary comment, maybe it's just better left unsaid.
slidingland 1 year ago 5
This comment has received too many negative votes show
My comment was necessarry,as far as brains go it sounds like you're on the same finger pointing soap box he is on.
goonercrew08 1 year ago
@goonercrew08 christians and non-christians alike arent drawn to this video for the "cuss words." what a trivial thing to say... the video is an artistic statement about the hypocrisy that runs rampant in so many churches. Derek is quick to point out that true people of faith who follow Jesus' teachings aren't condemning gay people simply because they are gay. we are ALL made in god's image, and he's challening other christians to re-evaluate their thinking. bravo, derek webb.
ccasto4 1 year ago 3
controversial? yes. but it was a song ccm needed. the way christians treat gays is horrific. someone needed to address the subject. well done, sir. well done.
theassassin43 1 year ago 5
Might I edit that to say "the way *some* Christians treat gays" ? I'm a Christian (and so is Derek Webb) and I don't treat gay people like crap. I don't think Jesus would either.
cattieloves 1 year ago 72
i'm a christian as well but for 91% of people who aren't christian, the first thing they think of when they hear the word christian is anti-homosexual. i'm not the one saying christians treat gays bad. i'm going on what everyone else thinks. and they're right... sadly.
theassassin43 1 year ago 2
Right, I'm just saying - don't lump in every Christian with the folks who treat people like crap. I get that that is the (sadly often true) stereotype, but there are those who really do treat people kindly. If we really want to follow Jesus, we should treat people like he did - with respect, differences aside.
cattieloves 1 year ago 8
This is how the world will change towards "Thy will be done." Thank you, Derek Webb.
NewHavenReligiousEd 2 years ago 8
What a cool album title! Stockholm Syndrome is the tendency of those captive to empathize with their captors. So, who are we? The captive or the captors?
ShoutHard 2 years ago
We are totally Captives of our own sin. It is apart of our flesh and who we are. And the only way to escape this captor of sin is through our savior Jesus Christ. Stockholm Syndrome is an amazing title, even if we know that we are captives it is so hard for many people to find salvation through Christ and step away from the sinful lives we live in a fallen world. Thank God we no longer have to be held captive to Sin and we can fight it daily in our lives as we follow after the light of Christ.
Stanleyjr86 2 years ago 3
why is it controversial?
Capman415 2 years ago
Perhaps it's controversial because it's art. In all the music that Believers create, they sometimes forget to create art. Art seems to be something that--after made--one stands back from it, looks at it and thinks about it...talks about it. I think he's done that. Words and deep human honesty can cause reflection, emotion and discussion. So, here we are. ;)
ShoutHard 2 years ago
I think they are refering to the word Damn, and hows its about gay people and not in a negative light. Which to a Christian I could see how thats controversial. But really I think the controversy lies with the christian that needs to grow up mentally and basically wake up to the world around them.
Capman415 2 years ago
i really love this song. I think we should be more concerned with social justice.
cloutcalt 2 years ago
IQs of some famous people
Adolf Hitler - 141
"Unabomber"Theodore Kaczynski - 170 at age 10
Martin Luther - 170
The average tested IQ of a cross section of Christians is the population average - 100. No surprise there at all.
The most common observation of Einstein as a child was that he we mentally deficient. History shows us that they were wrong.
Belief in Christ cannot be correlated with IQ, proven numerous times w/ double blind administered IQ tests.
sbgtfe289 2 years ago
Now see that, we have something in common... Go Hartford Whalers!
What about the Ice Cats...the Sharks!?
It's sad that to be a college kid these days you are required to be a liberal. I thought college was about rebellion and being unique. LOL!!
Question: If U2 takes 100-18 wheelers to move the show, and 2 power plants to supplement Gillettes power grid, are they really "green"?
Just too much fun. I have both BS and MS degrees in technical fields, so use care with your logic ;-)
sbgtfe289 2 years ago
You're an old Whalers fan? If so awesome. Are you from Worcester too because you referenced are old AHL team and our new one. Anyway I've always been liberal/progressive so I'm not really rebelling against anything. Just stating my opinions. Peace.
MassLiberal1 2 years ago
Jesus Christ, this sbgtfe289 fellow is still quoting the Bible! Give it a rest, we get it, you're religious/superstitous.
MassLiberal1 2 years ago
1 Corinthians 1:20 (New International Version) 20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
Thank you Lord for your Word.
sbgtfe289 2 years ago
1 Corinthians 1:18-20 (New International Version) 18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
Isn't it amazing how the world fulfils prophecy, right on queue...
The cross IS foolishness to the perishing!
sbgtfe289 2 years ago
Not religious but Webb is pretty cool. Whats with all these fundies quoting bible verses. It just makes them seem as crazy as their beliefs are. C'mon people, you're smarter then that.
MassLiberal1 2 years ago
Truth: The Word of God
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (New American Standard Bible) 9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
sbgtfe289 2 years ago
So this means, that people living on EARTH will have to give away their happiness, their freedom, their own believes, besides, who can say that those word is the truth and the path of God? Did a person went to heaven and came back to say thats the way? I Think not...maybe other people want to find happiness and place on earth, and God is so wonderful that he would understand that.
JC994 2 years ago
i think you might be misinterpreting the song. i'm not trying to argue; i just want to explain my understanding of the song. i feel that its a critique of the Christian establishment that doesn't practice it preaches. he is saying you treat people like crap because of their sexuality but there are more horrible things going on in the world like mass death, that should be more important to Christians rather than arguing about who Jesus was sent to save. Do what Christ said to do; Help Each Other
darkpyper 2 years ago 59
i totally agree with you...
He's trying to tell Christians to not be self-righteous and point fingers at sinners as if they themselves are not one...
and in the end...we are all subject to God's grace and mercy...
cropfield77 2 years ago
@darkpyper You hit the nail on the head on that one bud! Also he is talking about his friend and how his friend confronted him about his homosexuality
wiilittleman28 1 year ago
Comment removed
alekspeterson 2 years ago
I dont mean to be disrespectful, but Jesus is that person you are talking about in your comment. He came from Heaven and said, "I am the way."
Right before He went to the cross he was praying to God and said,"Father, if there is any other way, then take this cup from me." IF there was even one other way for us to get to heaven apart from the forgiveness of sins by faith in Christ, then Jesus would not have had to die."
Please don't think that this is a hateful response. I type it in love ;)
YwamPitt 2 years ago
and we should Thank Jesus every day for dying for us :)!!! without we are doomed, nothing else matters, but our acceptance of Christ
MissSofa 1 year ago 2
Leviticus 18:22 (King James Version) 22Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
sbgtfe289 2 years ago
Homosexuality isn't a sin; I showed this quite clearly in my earlier post. You haven't replied to it yet, nor have you accounted for the historical context (which is to say, the facts).
Suitecake 2 years ago
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aplbc217 2 years ago
Watch: Ephesians 2:8-9 (New International Version)
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this NOT FROM YOURSELVES, it is the gift of God— 9NOT BY WORKS, so that no one can boast.
Our tendency is to want to come up with a reason God should save us. There is no reason, we are depraved at heart and wretched. God loves us enough to save us, while we were yet sinners! Unbelievable, and yet we are commanded to take God at His Word. Jesus was righteous, He took our sin
sbgtfe289 2 years ago
1 John 1:9-10 (New International Version)
9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
People love to justify themselves by downplaying their own sin. This is a stealth attempt to justify themselves by works. I am no better or worse than a homosexual. I am called to love all people, regardless. But God is Holy.
sbgtfe289 2 years ago
jflo, Matthew 22:36-40 (New International Version) 36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
A sinner, without belief in Jesus Christ, is sent to Hell. At issue is not our sin, but our belief.
sbgtfe289 2 years ago
1) While Gnosticism is certainly a diverse movement, its primary argument, that matter is bad and the spiritual is good (to simplify things), is directly counter to the promotion of homosexual love. At any rate, whether or not Gnostics supported this is irrelevant. I can quote to you all sorts of prominent, early Christians that did not believe in eternal hell.
2) I am saved. I do not need to turn. I've been a Christian for fifteen years.
Suitecake 2 years ago
Romans 1... The Bible teaches homosexuality is an abomination before the Lord, so with that in mind, God still loves the homosexual, but hates the sin, right?
jflo69rmnp 2 years ago
As you know, there are literally tens of thousands of gnostic traditions, writings, philosophies, practices, cults, groups, and organizations. Like it's close relative the "The Age Movement" it is difficult to find a dominant/coherent tradition or mode. Much like finding the longest piece of hay in a haystack.
Human knowledge and understanding are at the heart of both traditional and new gnostic teaching.
This is my last post to you. Got to get back to work! Turn, friend, and be saved.
sbgtfe289 2 years ago
I don't agree with him.
Suitecake 2 years ago
SC, I recommend the following as a great synopsis and concise source:
The Howard Center, Marriage and Procreation, Allan C. Carlson, PhD
This essay is adapted from a Family Policy Lecture given to the Family Research Council, Washington, DC, on October 20, 2004. Allan Carlson is President of The Howard Center and Distinguished Fellow in Family Policy Studies at the Family Research Council.
Particularly the section on "Sex and Civilization" and "The New Gnostics"
sbgtfe289 2 years ago
That homosexuality is not a sin is not a false doctrine. You believe it is. I believe you're wrong.
I am not arguing this for the sake of controversy. I am arguing this for the sake of millions of great-souled homosexuals that Christ died to save. I am arguing for the sake of their full acceptance, instead of the prejudice resulting from a misinterpretation of Scripture.
I am committed to fighting prejudice against homosexuals in the church. That's my greatest social passion.
Suitecake 2 years ago 5
Sb, if I am a heretic, it is only in respect to your tradition. The position that homosexuality is a sin is very significant and large in the Christian church today. If you choose to call that a heresy, then go for it, but I think you're applying that word a bit too quickly.
Again, on the Gnosticism point, I find it far more likely that Gnostics would have been against homosexual commitment than for it. You've yet to provide a source.
Suitecake 2 years ago
I wonder if you adhere to the requirements for pastoral ministry and or eldership outlined in 1 Tim and Titus.
Husband of one wife? Above Reproach?
What about 1 Tim Ch 1?
1 Timothy 1:3-4 (New International Version) 3As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer 4nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work—which is by faith.
sbgtfe289 2 years ago
Satan also adheres to the vast majority of the Nicene Creed (minus refs. to mankind)
Arguing Orthodoxy with a "heretic" (not an insult, simple statement of fact) is like trying to convince a person he is a horse.
Gnosticism, as you likely know is filled with dualism and encompasses a wide variety of heresies. The manogamous homosexuality variant sought to avoid procreation without the very denigration you speak of. Look no further than Dan Brown and the Da Vinci Code re: gnosticism.
sbgtfe289 2 years ago
I am heterosexual, sbgtfe.
I am also saved, and am preparing to enter full-time pastoral ministry.
I am an orthodox Christian who fully adheres to the Nicene Creed.
Finally, the idea of monogamous, homosexual love is not Gnostic. The very idea of sexual love is something the Gnostics detested; it involved the body. Gnosticism was an early movement of thought that denigrated material creation and sought to escape into the spiritual realm. Gnostics would have hated the idea of homosexual love.
Suitecake 2 years ago
Finally found the source! ... for the orthodox Christians following the discussion:
This "monogamous homosexuality" false doctrine is actually a pervasive gnostic heresy found within numerous gnostic sources. Similar heretical writings have dogged the church even during Jesus lifetime. Even a passing reading of sampled gnostic writings confirm diametric opposition to any concept of Christian orthodoxy.
If I have time (likely not) I will post excepts. A google search nets some info.
sbgtfe289 2 years ago
Oops...irrelevant
sbgtfe289 2 years ago
SC I don't wish to argue with you, I plead with you instead. I don't care if you are homosexual or not. It is not the point.
Ephesians 2:8-9 (New International Version)
8For it is BY GRACE you have been saved, through faith—and this NOT from YOURSELVES, it is the GIFT of GOD— NOT BY WORKS, so that no one can boast.
I am more than likely more of a sinner than you are!
sbgtfe289 2 years ago
What you fail to recognize is that you are made in God's image, and if, in fact, you believe in Jesus Christ completely, then God sees you with the righteousness of Jesus, not your homosexuality.
While clarifying homosexuality is important, it is not nearly as important as recognizing that not one of us it righteous. It is irrelavant. If you cling to your sin, you love yourself. Trust in God instead, who has given us a way to live in spite of ANY sin. Every hair on your head is numbered!
sbgtfe289 2 years ago
I'm not sure if this happens where you are, but here every year a hunter shoots a human being, having mistaken him/her for a deer.
Statistics show that the longer a hunter sits in the woods alone, thinking deer, he eventually sees anything that moves as "deer". Meanwhile a 6 year old child standing next to him cries out, "Look Dad, a man is walking over there". You have tunnel vision.
SC, what you are doing is trying to prove to God that you are in fact worthy. Futile.
sbgtfe289 2 years ago
Scripture is easily taken out of context. You left out verse 23, which identifies these person as idolaters. Their sin is not their homosexuality; that's just a side detail. their sin is their idolatry. Their suppression of truth.
We have a picture here of promiscuous, non-committal homosexual sex. Promiscuous, non-committal heterosexual sex is just as much a sin.
Paul doesn't talk about monogamous, committed homosexual sex, which is pure and good and blessed of God.
Suitecake 2 years ago
Romans 1:32 (NIV)
32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
2 Timothy 3:16-17 (New International Version)
16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
The Truth, beloved. You were made in God's Image...
sbgtfe289 2 years ago
The Word of God:
Romans 1:29-31 (NIV)
29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
sbgtfe289 2 years ago
The Word of God:
Romans 1:27-28 (New International Version)
27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.
sbgtfe289 2 years ago
The Word of God:
Romans 1:24-26 (New International Version) 24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. 26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.
sbgtfe289 2 years ago
The Gospel is love.
Monogamous, homosexual love is love.
I've clearly shown that the Scripture account does not condemn homosexuality. There is no other argument given for homosexuality being a sin except from Scripture.
The Church is moving forward on this subject. There will be a few generations where this prejudice remains deeply entrenched, but with time, the Church will accept those who are being unfairly downtrodden through an improper reading of Scripture.
Suitecake 2 years ago
The Church is built on the rock of Jesus Christ and can never fail! In fact, it is Jesus alone who took the burden of our sin and presents us spotless and pure. We brought nothing to the cross but sin, and He saved us in spite of ourselves. All we inadequate.
Young people, I love each of you and care about your salvation. Dragging profanity and sin into the church is not the answer. The Devil pushes to extremes...
The message of the Gospel is not profanity and favored sins, but love.
sbgtfe289 2 years ago
This song is brilliant. Too many of you are getting caught up in arguing your theological points and missing the message of this song-you wont change an opinion of youtube!
We as a Church [universal] are failing, in the USA- the most segregated institution is the Church,Fwe pride ourselves in separating ourselves from sin, and miss the message in that we are to be SALT and LIGHT to ALL people, regardless of gender, race, sexuality, socioeconomic backgrounds -we need to simply live the Gospel.
alexnagel88 2 years ago
If you want to believe that homosexuality is sinful, then you will surely read the verses in that way (accordingly, you can make the same argument of me). I would point out, however, that for every other thing the Bible calls a 'sin', it is easy to craft an argument that does not rely upon Scripture to show that it is morally evil. This is not possible with homosexuality. If the verses fall, as I have shown they do, then homosexuality must be accepted.
Suitecake 2 years ago
As for your dealing with the verses, Leviticus is not weakened a bit. It's shown for what it is: a cultural comment that no longer applies.
I've already displayed the historical context of the Pauline denigration of 'homosexual offense'. It certainly does not show that the early church did not approve of homosexuality. The early church, prior to Paul, was united on practically nothing; it was thoroughly amorphous, except for the words of Jesus. Paul is clearly referring to cultic homosexuality.
Suitecake 2 years ago
I do have the Spirit, friend. I am a Christian of fifteen years, preparing to enter a life of full-time ministry. My opinion on this subject is not from a knee-jerk reaction. It is through education, through reflection, through study, through prayer.
Jesus never spoke against homosexuality, it should be pointed out.
There are large segments of history where Christian orthodoxy was supremely, socially acceptable, to the point where people who disagreed were burned at the stake.
Suitecake 2 years ago
We can develop reasons against pedophilia and bestiality through ethical reflection and analysis. We can do no such thing for homosexuality.
The Church has been wrong on a number of points in history. Lest we forget Galileo. I would also point out the strong trend of Universalism in the early church, which was not considered 'anathema' until the time of Augustine.
It's very easy to ignore someone if you label them as affected by 'sin', but for the sake of argument, that's not very convincing.
Suitecake 2 years ago
But there is absolutely no support in either the secular record, nor church writings considered canonical, to support your position that the church considered homosexuality anything but sin.
sbgtfe289 2 years ago
Also SC, I know these talking points well.
Whether you use the Septuagint or Masoretic Text, be careful with your Greek scholars and context. You are correct that The Law, in ceremonial aspects, was abolished as Paul discussed in detail. This weakens Lev 18:22, etc. a bit, understood.
The answer though (regarding Homosexual Offenders) lies in the obvious. The early church, and the earliest translations, councils, and later church orthodoxy, patently rejected homosexuality as sin.
sbgtfe289 2 years ago
Second, one can never, ever argue a person into being a Christian. A Christian is chosen by God and is indwelled by His Holy Spirit.
I can do no more for you than to urge you to reject your sin, now an idol for you, of homosexuality. Turn to the cross carrying nothing through the narrow gate. And be saved by Jesus perfect sacrifice for your sin on the cross. Receive His righteousness by God's grace. Or face Hell without Him.
sbgtfe289 2 years ago
I'm afraid that you may not have the Holy Spirit, so I cannot help you.
Twenty five years ago I learned these two powerful facts.
Christian orthodoxy is never "popular" by social standards. In fact throughout church history it is often the minority positions that are retained by the true church. This follows from the obvious...if Jesus words were popular, they would not have crucified Him.
sbgtfe289 2 years ago
I'm not sure if you are aware of it Suitecake, but nearly all, if not all, of your "arguments" below apply to pedophia and beastiality. The Bible can be made to say anything a depraved human mind wants it to say.
The churches mentioned show political bias in this fact: When sin of all sorts swells in modern society, their positions change. Logically this indicates socialization, a phenomena experienced muliple times in church history.
sbgtfe289 2 years ago
Finally, the sin of Sodom was inhospitality, not homosexuality. At any rate, their homosexual practices (which are certainly implied) are characteristic of sin. Were they heterosexuals and acted in the same way, their sin would be neither less nor greater.
The citizens of those cities were not exactly paragons of marriage.
Suitecake 2 years ago
In the New Testament, homosexuality is ALWAYS discussed in the context of another, accompanying sin. In Romans 1, it is idolatry. In the other NT, Pauline verses, it is 'prostitution'. Paul was writing to a culture in which homosexual rituals in cultic worship was commonplace. When this historical context is understood, it becomes clear that Paul is condemning these homosexual, cultic practices, not homosexuality itself.
There is no verse in Scripture that condemns monogamous, homosexual love.
Suitecake 2 years ago
As for Scripture, there are two classes of verses on homosexuality: one, the 'abomination' verses (OT). Two, the 'improper homosexuality', or 'homosexual offenders' verses (NT).
Abomination, in the Hebraic texts, merely means 'what is not culturally normal'. Eating shrimp was an abomination. This applied to that culture only, and should not be seen as an 'eternally binding' law.
Suitecake 2 years ago
Perhaps your denomination, or tradition, teaches that the acceptance of homosexuality is a heresy. However, such a sweeping claim of Christianity as a whole is no longer proper. The Episcopal and Lutheran Churches have both openly accepted practicing homosexuals into their clergy. The Presbyterian Church is a few votes, and few years, away from making a similar move, as is the United Methodist Church.
This is certainly controversial, but the acceptance of homosexuality is hardly minor position.
Suitecake 2 years ago
On Unity -
2 Corinthians 6:14-16 (NIV)
14Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God.
sbgtfe289 2 years ago
sbgtfe289 2 years ago
That Bible verse doesn't contradict what I said.
That said, I'm not interested in engaging in a debate with you on Scripture. I know exactly what verses you can bring out on me. I've studied them, and, when taking into account the historical context with which they were written, and thus, the meaning which the author originally intended, I have concluded that the Bible does not condemn homosexuality as eternally wrong.
Let us, at any rate, agree that love and unity are to be encouraged.
Suitecake 2 years ago
False teachers are easy when you use God's Word... compare prior comment to scripture.
1 John 1:8-10 (New International Version) 8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
Beloved, you must choose...
God, or the praise of men.
sbgtfe289 2 years ago
A beautiful song with a strong and important message.
Conversation is essential, not division.
There is nothing sinful about monogamous, homosexual love.
Suitecake 2 years ago