Derek May and Martin Merriman re: Visiting the Governing Body

[OriginalJoseyWales]

so what has happened to these guys now ? Are they still out ? What are they doing now ?

[OriginalJoseyWales]

haven't seen all of it but enjoying this vid. I may or may not agree with what is said but i just thought if the society had its way no witness woud be able to view this almost makes me glad they don't run wider society.

[madeup6]

Thank you so much for posting this! I watched every last minute of it and learned so much. 

[TNMtnBob]

@Karaokephile The sheep in Jesus’ illustration want the shepherd to find them and return them to the flock. Others are not lost sheep, but intentionally go. They don’t want to return. “They went out from us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us. … not all are of our sort.” “. . .and on account of these the way of the truth will be spoken of abusively.” (1 John 2:19, 2 Peter 2:2) So, do you want to be found and returned to the flock?

[Karaokephile]

@TNMtnBob

YOUR Leader is one, the Christ. - Mat 23:10

by following the lead of the modern-day Governing Body, they are in fact following their Leader, Christ. - w9/15/2010

We must obey God as ruler rather than men. - Acts 5:29

We need to obey the faithful and discreet slave to have Jehovah's approval - ws7/15/2011

there is one God, and one mediator between God and men... Jesus – 1Tim 2:5

This must be my last reply until you repent of your blasphemy, equating Christ with a "Governing Body".

[TNMtnBob]

@Karaokephile Never did I equate Christ with anything, nor mention a “Governing Body.”

But since you brought it up: Christ did not personally direct the congregation back in the first century. The older men did not replace Christ, but prayerfully examined the scriptures and made decisions. (See Acts 16:4-5, Ch. 15)

Neither do the “7 old men in N.Y.” that you refer to replace Christ, but are part of the flock. But they exercise authority exactly as did the first century apostles and older men.

[Karaokephile]

@TNMtnBob

Reluctantly, I reply to this ridiculous statement, because of its wholesale disregard for truth. The 7 old men in NY do not consider themselves part of the flock, but part of the Christ.

The Christ, or The Anointed One, is a collective or composite company, Christ Jesus being the Head, and the 144,000 members of his church being the body . - The New World p.96 (1942)

Christ thus leads the congregation by means of the spirit-anointed “faithful and discreet slave” - w9/15/05 p.22

[Karaokephile]

@Karaokephile (cont.)

by following the lead of the modern-day Governing Body, they are in fact following their Leader, Christ. - w9/15/2010

While the Society has downplayed their Christ complex, they've never retracted the claims under the guise of "new light". They now couch the claim in elusive wording like "composite seed" and "organization".

According to JW dogma, only they have Jesus as mediator, only they have a right to Scripture, and only they can understand it. Follow Christ; not men!

[TNMtnBob]

@Karaokephile

Christ leads through men in congregations. "Become imitators of me [Paul], even as I am of Christ." (1 Cor 11:1)

He teaches through congregations. “Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations.” (Rev 3:22)

If you aren't part of a congregation, then you're not following Christ. So what congregation are you in? You don't seem to be able to answer that question.

But that's okay, John; I saw your post @ youtube.com/watch?v=6lG3ywTpFB­U

Check out Rev 2:2.

[TNMtnBob]

Acts 20:28 ...the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the congregation ...

Heb 13:17 Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you...

The BIBLE says JEHOVAH’s SHEEP will be led to the CONGREGATION led by MEN appointed to lead the FLOCK to Christ under his direction.

The Jews rejected Christ as his Father’s Delegate. (Matt 21:43)

Most will reject Christ’s delegates as well. (Matt 25:45)

Do you believe the Bible? “Or do you despise the congregation of God?” (1 Cor 11:22)

[OriginalJoseyWales]

@TNMtnBob while you are in the congreagtion of christ it in no way absolves you of your own responsibility for your own actions and beliefs because when all is said and done you will account for your actions. If you follow policy/doctrine and it is changed it was your choice.

[TNMtnBob]

@Karaokephile

Ezek 34:11,16 ...Jehovah has said: “...I MYSELF,... will search for my sheep.... The lost one...and the dispersed one I shall bring back.”

Does it HIMSELF. How?

John 10:16 I have other sheep...they will listen to MY voice, and they will become one flock.

By CHRIST’s voice. How?

Rom 10:14-15 How...will they put faith in him of whom they have not heard? How...will they hear without someone to preach? How...will THEY preach unless they have been sent forth?

And who sends them?

(cont)

[greatgatsb9o921o]

@TNMtnBob compelling logic... except that there is no proof God's name is Jehovah. No human knows the pronunciation of YHWH. Also the appointment of the Governing Body only works if Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 B.C.E. Where did they get this year from? NO SECULAR SOURCE HAS EVER SUPPORTED THE 607 BCE DATE!!!! However, watchtower may have merged the Charles Taze Russell Egyptian pyramid date of 1914, somehow with bible prophecy... they then counted backwards to make 607 BCE fit & cement contol

[TNMtnBob]

@greatgatsb9o921o

That Jehovah has been the accepted English translation of God’s name for hundreds of years is well documented in the KJV, many other Bible versions, literature, etc. NO ONE claims Jehovah is the lost Hebrew pronunciation.

Every secular source DOES support 537 BCE as the year the 70-year Jewish exile in Babylon. If 70 years ended in 537 BCE, they began in 607 BCE. - Jer 29:10, Dan 9:1-2, 2 Chron 36:20-21

Josephus supports the Bible's 70-year time frame.

[greatgatsb9o921o]

@TNMtnBob friend thank you for responding. Open any secular encyclopedia or archaeological text & you will find Jerusalem's destruction in 586/587 BCE. The question now is if the "70 years" are literal or figurative. I say this because eventhough Isaiah 23:15a states: "Tyre must be forgotten 70 years" your own ISAIAH PROPHECY BOOK (ip-1 p. 253 par. 1) makes the "70 years" figurative. It says: "Tyre is not subject to Babylon for a full 70 years." since when can we pick & choose?

[greatgatsb9o921o]

@TNMtnBob the plot thickens. Jeremiah 25:8-17, 22, 27 make it clear that Tyre and a host of other nations, "will have to serve the king of Babylon 70 years." Yet your own ISAIAH PROPHECY BOOK (ip-1 p. 253 par 1) states: "Tyre is not subject to Babylon for a full 70 years." Therefore, if it is possible then that Watchtower can pick & choose what is a literal "70 years" and what is a figurative "70 years", then it is possible for both the 586/587 BCE date & the "70 years" to both be true

[greatgatsb9o921o]

@TNMtnBob In view of the foregoing... if then 586/587 BCE date is correct, and the "70 years" were a figurative "70 years" and not literal, then it truly is the death knell for the 1914 date... indeed we are most to be pitied among men

[TNMtnBob]

@Karaokephile

Christ told his closest followers “I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, that YOU may … sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel." (Luke 22:29-30)

Jesus was anointed with holy spirit at baptism. (John 1:32-33) Those who rule with him are likewise anointed. (Acts 1:8)

You omit the Col. 1:18 citation that sets the context. Christ means anointed means Christ.

See "Following Christ, the Perfect Leader" 5/15/11 wt @ jw.org

[WWZenaDo]

"and she pressed him about the nature of the committee again. And he said, "Yes, well, you could say it was 'judicial'." [indistinguishable] said, "But you said it wasn't judicial!" He said, "Well, a committee is a committee...." Wowwieee... Typical Watchtower double-speak... :[ And the Governing Body wanted YOUR request for a meeting with them in writing, but the Circuit Overseer wouldn't even commit in writing his "invitation" to your hangin- er, "non-judicial" committee...??

[Karaokephile]

Suppose a man has 100 sheep and one of them strays. Won't he leave the 99 sheep in the hills to look for the one that has strayed? - Mat 18:12

Anyone who's ever contacted the Society knows they don't care about the individual. Everything's about the "Organization", which is the real JW god. The drum of "Unity at all costs" is beaten constantly. A JW is better to question the existence of God or the historicity of Jesus than disagree with anything in the literature. The Watchtower is their Bible.

[TNMtnBob]

@Karaokephile So, John, the 100 were together in a flock, and one wandered off. Then the man went and found him. Did he leave him there or bring him back to the flock? So if a Christian wanders off from the congregation (or organization), and we go out and find him, should we just leave him there or lead him back to the congregation like the man in the illustration? Sounds like Jesus was stressing that the individual must stay with the congregation. So, where's the congregation we lead him to?

[Karaokephile]

@TNMtnBob Scripture warns "quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is ...an idolater" - 1Cor 5:11, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you are merely misled and not antichrist (1John 2:18).

Jesus spoke of:

But whoever stumbles one of these little ones who put faith in me - Mat 18:6

He was speaking of himself; not a group. This is typical JW trading "Whom shall we go away to" (John 6:68) for "Where shall we go". Follow Christ; not men (Psa 146:3, Isa 2:22, Jer 17:5).

[TNMtnBob]

Everyone knows Jesus said: “I am the fine shepherd, and I know my sheep and my sheep know me, … they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.” (John 10:14-16) If any man would leave his flock and find the lost, or stumbled, sheep and bring it back to the flock, how much more so would Jesus. Jesus does not lead that lost sheep in its own new, individual path, but returns it to the flock he leads. The sheep needs to be in the flock. Where is that flock?

[Karaokephile]

@TNMtnBob

The flock is Jesus' followers; not the followers of 7 old men in NY. That is the difference between Christianity and a cult.

Beware of "organization.” It is wholly unnecessary. The Bible rules will be the only rules you will need. Do not seek to bind others' consciences, and do not permit others to bind yours. Believe and obey so far as you understand God’s Word today, and so continue growing in grace and knowledge and love day by day. - w9/15/1895

Compare Acts 20:29-30.

[TNMtnBob]

@Karaokephile Then we agree Christ is the Leader of the Flock and his followers make up the flock. And a flock is a unified group. If you are a Christian following Christ, you are in that flock, that unified group.

Russell was talking about the religious organizations that had replaced the Bible’s teaching with man-made doctrines. Jesus said his followers would be congregated together (organized). (Matt 16:18, John 10:16) Russell does not trump Christ.

So, I ask you again: Where is the flock?

[joydh1968]

Thanks you for posting this....it's very inciteful and says alot about the hierarchy within the organisation....i was a witness for 15 years till 2 years ago, and wouldn't go back. I read Ray Franz' book and it answered all the unanswered questions that niggled on me for years. Everyone should read it. he was a true christian and good man.

[freeminds]

My apology, it was taped at Peter Gregerson's in Gadsden, Alabama in 1982 by Fred Gholson, joined with his beautiful wife.

[mading4]

Watch Tower tell some many lies .

Thank God not stIll init .

Ray Franz was good man thank him help gave me in his  books

[mading4]

lRaymond Franz was good man , And the Watch TWER tell some many lies.

[inspirediam]

My goodness, the brother had solid proof in a file...he did not need to use faith, the evidence was right there to be discussed; however, the reaction of the society is the REASON the brothers and sisters are so upset and have so many questions. Faith is not to be used when an individual is presented with information that needs answers. If faith was an issue, the witnesses would have left the faith without going to so much trouble to get BOTH sides of the story.

[inspirediam]

Well, the light was getting brighter back in the eighties...but those inside could not see it...because the corruption is at the top..and when you are in a loving congregation, that is a hard thing to swallow. Furthermore, the cultural difference is astounding to me, you see, like witnesses in America, Americans believe we are free; however, question a bit to much or lead others to think independently, take a peaceful stand, and you can be labled a terroist. A pattern...of behavior...

[inspirediam]

When was this video taped?

[inspirediam]

The same thing happened to me, when I brought up some questions to my mom...what have you been reading? At the time I was taking a theology course and researching New Age..and in doing so, I began to connect the dots between the root teachings of Christianity, and how the occult (hidden knowledge) is a part of ALL of the practiced religous faiths..in one way, shape or form...too much to put in this post..but to question, to question is fine if you accept the answer and move on.

[dallywally72]

thanks for posting this. You really can see how sincere these brothers are in search of 'truth'. Well the truth shall set you free.

[inspirediam]

The Watchtower, a Corporation, and a government all onto its own. This sounds like a mini version of the US, a Corporation, with a government all onto its own. The United States of America is not the same as the United States. This faith, among many others of this sort have similarities that I do not have time to put into this post, but the patterns of behavior exhibited by such organziations/governments reflect that of a authoritarian dictatorship.

[TimothyStuartRiches]

Thanks very much for posting this! *FASCINATING*