N.C. Governor's School Preparations and Alternatives

[markthesharkk]

This is ridiculous.. You think this is a socialist experiment? Just because it's a program that tries to get pepole to question their views doesn't mean anything. In fact, I think it's an incredible program. Anything that gets people to back out and look at how they've been trained to think and live is insanely beneficial for any human. Controversial isn't bad, just because it doesn't match your views. This is incredibly ignorant. You have no value in any of your arguement...

[LutherSetzer]

@markthesharkk At whose expense? For what purpose? At what age is such "questioning" good? Who is to deal with the residual "questions" after the program finishes? These are all questions the program begs but evades answering. Of course, undoubtedly the people behind this program want to shake beliefs opposing their agenda while concurrently introducing beliefs supporting their agenda. I hope you enjoy the Kool-Aid.

[pococolo]

@markthesharkk That argument only works if students who start out as lib agnostics come home as converted conservative religious individuals in amounts about equal to those who start out with conservative, religious orientations who convert to agnostic libs. From what I've read, it's pretty much the latter and not the former. That at least suggests that indoctrination. Why does society need all these kids who have been "challenged?" We really need more doctors and engineers.

[AprilBurrows]

You guys...I am not paranoid. I am not necessarily conservative or liberal. And I'm not anti-educational programs. In fact I was Valedictorian of my high school. But having attend a Governor's School, I can verify that what Mr. Setzer alleges is the truth. And looking back on my high school career, I realize my summer would have been much better spent if I'd focused on things other than a camp full of elitist kids with radically liberal instructors. 

[astr0al3x]

Any government sponsored program that isolates a group of people from the outside world, (ie: no internet, photography or video taping) as is the case with some governor's schools should raise mental red flags and at the very least, prompt a person to ask hard questions about the purpose of said programs.

[chredon]

As for Mr. Setzer's opinion that dual enrollment (taking a couple of college courses for credit) is a superior use of your summer, he is incorrect. Ask any college admissions officer in any UNC system, private, or Ivy League university and they will tell you that attending GS is much more important on your application than having taken an entry-level philosophy course at your local community college. Creative thinkers are in demand. Anyone can take Psych 101.

[LutherSetzer]

@chredon I am skeptical of this claim given the wide range of qualifiers that admissions officers examine. Moreover, I think Ivy League schools are vastly overrated. A solid high school application ought to gain entry into a decent UNC program for one's career of choice. Getting as many of those college credits as possible in high school saves vast sums of time and money at UNC. This can in turn accelerate entry into an internship or cooperative education position, where the real value lies.

[chredon]

@LutherSetzer: My source for this information is Tom Ross, President of the University of North Carolina system, supported by observations from people I know in the Park Scholarship program at NCSU. Your skepticism is noted, and I'll give it all the credence it deserves. And while an Ivy League education may not be that much more informative than others, the prestige of an Ivy League degree and the contacts you make there are certainly more than worth the effort of trying to get in.

[chredon]

Mr. Setzer has a long-standing a well-known poor opinion of Governor's School. Certainly, no program will appeal to everyone. But of the approximately 31,000 students who have attended GS since 1963, the vast majority of them have nothing but good to say about the program. Exit surveys show that over 99% of the students rate GS as a positive experience and are glad they attended. Mr. Setzer is free to voice his opinion, but know that his opinion is unique in its negativity.

[LutherSetzer]

@chredon Those who choose to attend the program can at least benefit from the "preparations" portion of this video. I still stand by those recommendations. Waiting until arrival to engage the material represents a big mistake and deprives participants of considerable value they might otherwise garner from the program.

[chredon]

@LutherSetzer: Somehow, I doubt an introductory math course would prepare me for discussions of Einstein's Theory of Special Relativity. I don't think Psych 101 would give me more insight into areas of epistemology or the goal of thought. I don't think Anthropology 101 would prepare me for discussions of the role of giftedness in modern society and the challenges faced by those who must walk that path. Nothing that you have said shows that you have any understanding of what GS was really about.

[LutherSetzer]

@chredon Your argument underscores one of my criticisms of the program. It evades the hierarchical nature of knowledge. By jumping into relativity prior to taking trigonometry and mechanics, for example, the thrust of the theory drops context and becomes a floating abstraction. As for your point about epistemology, you need to watch the video again more closely. I said to use the MyPhilosophyKit Web site to prepare for epistemology discussions, MySocKit for sociology, etc.

[waverider5678]

Also, Area 3 does start conversations about many controversial issues... but if we were to not look into the things that are shaping our culture today, where would society be? We would all be just as closed-minded as you, and that would ruin a rising generation of compassionate and intelligent teenagers.

[LutherSetzer]

@waverider5678 As I implied in my previous reply, actual summer college courses in sociology (Area III), philosophy (Area II), and chosen discipline (Area I) would deliver tangible benefits to the student in terms of credits to use toward a degree. This is not an issue of "open" or "closed" mind but rather "passive" versus "active" mind. As you struggle to pay for college and complete that needed degree, you can recall bitterly the time and effort squandered in this no-credit summer program.

[waverider5678]

Mr. Setzer- I am attending Governor's School West at this very moment. Our last day is Saturday, and after watching your video, I am utterly disgusted at the narrow-minded and disrespectful light you have cast upon a program that has changed my life. Governor's School is such an amazing place, where intelligent kids like me can go pursue our passions and learn new things and form lifelong opinions and friendships. Your video made me feel sorry for your pathetic viewpoint.

[LutherSetzer]

@waverider5678 I see you drank the Kool-Aid. Obviously you enjoyed the taste -- for now. I hope you do not discover the bitter aftertaste later. I actually only have six words for you: "Show me your cash flow statement." By that I mean that time and effort spent at Governor's School could have been better spent taking actual summer community college courses in those same topics for college credit. Taking them online with two weekend retreats would have much more long term benefit for all.

[jdtink19]

Mr. Setzer, I believe a poorly lived life guides someone to make a powerpoint presentation slamming a program he visited 25 years ago. Are you still calling up old ex-girlfriends and chastising them? I take it you are still bitter about that high school football game you lost.

I believe and there are thousands that will agree with me that Governor's School was an excellent program, and any animosity you hold is simply regret at not taking advantage of the opportunities you had there.

[LutherSetzer]

@jdtink19 You may think what you like. I know others who share similar sentiments to my own. Hopefully, they will eventually make the time to post similar thoughts and presentations to assure the Governor's School marketing hype gets a fair and balanced consumer feedback report. I want to make sure their propaganda does not go unchallenged.

[ctp4]

i can't believe you wasted time doing this. more importantly, i can't believe i've wasted any time listening to this. governor's school was an amazing experience that I still look fondly back on. i made some great lifelong friends and had exposure to so many new things because of it, i can't imagine not having had the opportunity. so you weren't mature enough for it at the time and/or it didn't suit you. that's life. deal with it and move on. this is complete rubbish.

[LutherSetzer]

@ctp4 Your improper capitalization and other writing foibles say all we need to know about your education at Governor's School and elsewhere.

[ctp4]

@LutherSetzer once again you focus on the irrelevant and turn to personal insults to deflect attention from the truth of the matter. this was a COMPLETE WASTE of TIME. how's that for capitalization?!

[omnipresentXoblivion]

You ought to view other or more recent sessions of this program before you make a permanent opinion on the program as a whole. The program has surely altered since your experience and the teachers usually switch out every year - no one session is exactly like another.

[JayFashionistaGenius]

I attended GSW this past summer, and it was very interesting to see how little of this holds true now. Ayn Rand is my favorite author as well, and I applied my own variation of objectionism at GSW and was praised for it. GSW wants you to challenge everything, including itself and its postmodern agenda. The big part of GSW's "once in a lifetime experience" however, does not come from its curriculum, but rather from the students. THere is no other NC program that gathers students at that level

[mowgliw]

I'm another "old dude" (GSW '85), and I have to say that my experience was quite different from the one presented here. Maybe it was because I came into GSW from a magnet high school in an urban environment, maybe it was my upbringing to be open minded in general, maybe it was just my personality, but I had a great time and wasn't in any way damaged by the experience. I found it challenging and interesting and, honestly,after 20 years, can't imagine getting all that worked up about it either way

[LutherSetzer]

I was raised on a farm, spent most of my time outside school in solitude, was taught the Lutheran religion (and embraced it at the time), and attended an average rural high school immediately prior to GS (and NCSSM immediately after GS). So, yes, I would say those radically different pasts would lead to radically different experiences based on radically different values. I would have gotten much more from GS had I at least done the preparations I describe in the video.

[surfmanatee]

I am on the fence as to whether to go to governor's school. This video and has convinced me that it will be a worthwhile experience. It sounds like a place where arrogance and close-mindedness are discouraged, people have to get to know others with dissenting views, and you are allowed to have a little fun. This is in line with everything I have heard insofar about governors school. Which leads me to a question: if you, Mr. Setzer, were as aware as I am of what to expect, why did you go?

[LutherSetzer]

I was not as aware of what to expect as you are. I trusted the word of others that it was a worthwhile experience -- my mistake in not knowing myself. I am glad my video helped you to make a fully informed decision. As poster stwelin on this thread has conceded, you will benefit greatly from doing the "preparations" I outline in the first half of the video. They will help you to maximize your NCGS experience and lead to productive intellectual progeny rather than just mental masturbation.

[orangecrayon57]

I'm sorry... did you just say "mental masturbation?"

Really?

What could you possibly mean by that?

[LutherSetzer]

Per the Urban Dictionary online it is:

1. Intellectual activity that serves no practical purpose.

2. The act of engaging in useless yet intellectually stimulating conversation, usually as an excuse to avoid taking constructive action in your life.

[Blaguedvorak]

I kinda bailed on this conversation, but really, to quite a few of the people commenting here: Don't be a jerk. He hasn't called anybody stupid, so it would be cool if you returned the favor. "An old man with a stale grudge" was inappropriate.

[LutherSetzer]

Thank you for the kind words.

[LutherSetzer]

Wikipedia says: "Brainwashing (also known as thought reform or reeducation) consists of any effort aimed at instilling certain attitudes and beliefs in a person." Merriam calls it "a forcible indoctrination to induce someone to give up basic political, social, or religious beliefs and attitudes and to accept contrasting regimented ideas." Either way, there is definitely a "slant" to the content of NCGS material, forcefully delivered, that runs counter to much of conservative American thought.

[LutherSetzer]

My video aims to tell them parts of the story they may not hear from others. Notice that the video title includes the word "preparations." Learning about sociology and philosophy via online course material can "let possible future students experience it" before committing to it. Consider it "courtship before commitment."

[stwelin]

Although I disagree with you about a few of your points, I admit that I wish the program had required some preparation materials as you have. When we started discussing moral and ethical behaviour in area II, I was rolling my eyes constantly at the pathetic "2 people are standing on a railroad" moral dilemmas. I felt like we spent hours just mucking through this stuff when we could have been having intelligent conversation.

[LutherSetzer]

I hope this video will prepare those who go well enough not to have to suffer those "mucking" conversations.

[LutherSetzer]

According to the NCGS Web site, little has changed in 27 years.

[JayFashionistaGenius]

That's all well and good, but the fact of the matter is that it has. You neglected to mention a MAJOR part of GS West, optional seminars. Few of the arguments in this video hold true. In my GSW experience, the curriculum was never set but chosen by the students and any criticism of the program was encouraged and asked of us often. Also, there is nothing cultish or socialistic about GS. If anything, it subscribes to the objectivist opinion that each person should pursue individual happiness.

[LutherSetzer]

I'm telling you that in 1982 the director told our parents explicitly not to visit during the first two weeks of the program. If they have changed that policy -- great! But the isolation can still prove bothersome, and the FAQ clearly states the restrictions on weekend departures from campus.

[superkatiehock]

I lived merely twenty minutes from my campus and was visited numerous times by family and friends, and even went home once. I was definitely not isolated. Even those who didn't live nearby had friends to keep them company. Sure, some people aren't exactly socialites, but one would really have to try in order to not make friends while there, and in that case, why would they even bother to go? Plus, the beauty of Governor's School is that you can leave at any time if you don't enjoy it.

[LutherSetzer]

The problems of quitting before the full six weeks include: (1) no credit for the program; (2) "guilt trips" from those who could have gone in your place; (3) "shutting out" of possibilities like dual enrollment because of the time squandered at NCGS. I consider a well-informed decision before the fact crucial so as to make the best choice for the whole summer. This video assists in that regard.

[superkatiehock]

I understand, but there's no way to truly know how any person will handle a situation until they've experienced it. Just because you had a terrible time and because I had a great time certainly will not depict the outcome of anyone else. The negative information was helpful (I was actually told some of these things before I went, yet they didn't affect my decision), just lay off on the repressed anger when trying to make an informing video.

[cheanator]

im kinda country and when i displayed the confederate flag, i was asked to take it down, while i saw many people walking around with the communist star on their hats, and pictures of communist dictators on their t shirts.

[LutherSetzer]

Thank you for your thoughtful, balanced comments.

[cheanator]

my parents were never pushed to not visit me, however some of the things that i learned at gov school were a bit controvercial. I am a christian, and an extreme conservative, i found that many poeple in the gov school program were extremely strange.  Nearly all of the instructors were extreme Liberals bordering on socialists and some of them were socialists by definition. This said, i still believe that gov school did good things for me and made me not except everything that i hear for a fact.

[LutherSetzer]

Thank you for your thoughtful, balanced comments.

[stormcloudone]

After 10 mins of this video, I understand and know people who went to gov school and didnt enjoy it. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and you're no different.

But really...

"Administrators typically instruct parents not to visit students during the first two weeks of the program"

You have a problem with that? WELCOME TO COLLEGE!!! That's pratically the reason why?  Gov school students are only one year away from going for a month without seeing their parents!! Get over it!

[LutherSetzer]

College students are normally 18 or over whereas Governor's School students are 17 or under. So the issue here is one of legal and moral responsibility for oneself. Students at NCGS have many more restrictions imposed upon them via "in loco parentis" rules than do college students. Moreover, many college students live at home and attend their local community college their first two years, so your point only has some merit.

[superkatiehock]

You are just an old man with a stale grudge against a 6 week experience that you didn't enjoy. The fact that you took the time to make this video is both humorous and sad. I'm sorry that you didn't enjoy Governor's School, however proclaiming false and incredibly biased information to considering students is pathetic. Get over the fact that you had a bad experience and stop acting like a closed-minded ignoramus.

[LutherSetzer]

I have presented the bare facts and then evaluated them in accordance with valid standards. The issue here is not "open" or "closed" mind, but "active" or "passive" mind. I have demonstrated my active mind with this video and hope to engage others of active mind to hear "the rest of the story," to borrow the words of Paul Harvey.

[LutherSetzer]

You "felt like" you could cure cancer? Feelings do not equal accomplishments. Billions have been spent on cancer research with no cure in sight. As for The Last American Man, my survey of Amazon shows him to be a nut. I grew up on a farm and earned an Eagle Scout award and trust me, nature is something from which I want to "alienate" myself as much as possible. I suggest Nathaniel Branden's essay "Alienation" in CAPITALISM: THE UNKNOWN IDEAL by Ayn Rand for a contrast to his viewpoint.

[stwelin]

"nature is something from which I want to "alienate" myself as much as possible."

I felt very similarly during my entire session. I attended NCGS for visual art, and basically every 'assignment' or project we embarked on was somehow supposed to tie in with nature.

This is the point at which I decided to completely disregard my instructor's comments and use the resources at hand to do as I pleased.

They must have done a fine job, because I'm still brainwashed into believing I had a good time.

[LutherSetzer]

As for becoming an "more informed thinker," remember, these NCGS "intellectuals" set the agenda. Even when they do not tell you what to think, they still control the calendar of events about which to think. So while you think about The Last American Man, your time gets squeezed out of considering the achievements of great industrialists, etc. So, yes, as a former dues paying member of Mensa, I can honestly say that even smart people can get suckered into accepting dumb ideas.

[orangecrayon57]

"[they] set the agenda" and "control the calendar of events about which to think." how is that any different than any other school or class? In a dual enrollment course, does not the teacher and/or state control what the curriculum is and when you learn about it?

[LutherSetzer]

Yes, all schools set agendas, but dual enrollment has several advantages: (1) tangible college credit; (2) a much wider range of choices; (3) a supportive home free of constant haranguing by "in loco parentis" administrators.

[LutherSetzer]

So you admit that bad roommates can alter your NCGS experience for the worse. Good. I am glad we can agree on this crucial point. As I state in the video, smart young people have many worthwhile alternatives to pursue over the summer. I simply suggest that dual enrollment can offer more freedom and more tangible value than NCGS can.

[LutherSetzer]

I hope these activities help you eventually to choose a productive career and create positive cash flow, the life blood of a free person in a free society. I consider much of the hand wringing sociology a waste of time, however. Dual enrollment at least delivers tangible college credits which save money and time later.

[LutherSetzer]

It's fine that you enjoyed it. Most did. Those of us who did not can at least warn others of like mind about the downsides of the program.

[stwelin]

I think like minded people (people who are completely anti-social, from what I can gather) already find it glaringly obvious that 6 weeks with 400 peers might not be their fancy.

I wonder if this comment will magically disappear like my last one. Hm.

[LutherSetzer]

I wonder if stwelin considered that I accidentally hit the "Remove" button rather than the "Reply" button on his last one. Hm. I admit my honest mistake in that regard and apologize for it. I hope YouTube adds an "Undo" feature in the near future.

[LutherSetzer]

I also consider myself "non-social" rather than "anti-social." But of course the problem lies in understanding oneself well enough to grasp what others might find obvious. I did expect a more serious, studious atmosphere at NCGS than what I actually encountered. The endless late nights of talking and partying ran totally counter to my expectations.

[stwelin]

Fair enough. To reiterate my last point:

I consider myself a very independent person. I rarely feel lonely when spending a majority of my time without friends surrounding me, and I never felt socially suffocated while at NCGS.

[orangecrayon57]

also, you said that dual enrollment is a better use of your money. You forgot that Governor's School is, in fact, free of charge.

[LutherSetzer]

Dual enrollment is generally free of charge. Moreover, I consider time more valuable than money. My main point is that dual enrollment is a better use of time, not money.

[orangecrayon57]

I think we can all agree that this is one person who intentionally is portraying a program that many enjoy and value in as negative light he is able to. No one ever tried to "brainwash" me or anybody else I have spoken to. They simply encourage you to think about issues for yourself in a logical fashion. I think it's a very reasonable demand for a person to be able to explain why the believe what they do. You just like complaining.

[Blaguedvorak]

I have no problem with your opinion of dual-enrollment being superior. I disagree, but that opinion is fine.

Well, would be fine, if in the process you didn't demonize the program you oppose to make your point. Come on, "gulag?" Seriously?

You're right. You don't select your roommates. On that note, you also don't select your parents, your siblings, coworkers, or your classmates. I don't see a problem with a situation that people deal with successfully on a daily basis.

[LutherSetzer]

I want as much freedom to choose my human relationships as possible, especially when I have to share such close quarters.

[Blaguedvorak]

The comparisons to NCGS being a gulag are grossly wrong. The communication alternatives mentioned by the other writer are all viable, plus, anyone can come and visit you.

You admit to being an introvert, having unfortunate roommate issues(both in this video and the NCSSM one), and generally not liking a great deal of social interaction. Your dissatisfaction is then understandable, but your outlier personality is not representative of the whole body of prospective students.

[LutherSetzer]

This video serves as a due warning about the detriments of NCGS. It encourages those who qualify for the program to consider it "with eyes wide open" so as to avoid wasting time. I still think everyone, extrovert or introvert, would benefit more tangibly from summer dual enrollment courses than from NCGS.

Some "gulag" issues still persist at NCGS. From their FAQ, students may neither select roommates nor leave on any weekend other than break. I also doubt just anyone can visit campus at will.

[Shlazzer]

There are no alternatives.

It des nt 'isolae' yopu from yur supporting networks in any way shape or form. You have access to internet and telephone at any moment.

Any censorship that has happened is due to the continued involvment of DPI in the agenda of NCGS.

All in all, this is an unfortunate video. It presents an incredibly biased and one sided view of what this person thinks is "Governor's School'

If anyone has questions about what Governor's School REALLY is please contact me

[LutherSetzer]

Yes, better alternatives do exist for those willing to seek. I encourage viewers to think carefully about how they want to spend their summers. Yes, NCGS does indeed isolate its students physically from their normal emotional network. Telephone and Internet make poor substitutes for those "in the flesh" contacts. As for the Department of Public Instruction (DPI) "censorship," this should come as no surprise. After all, supposedly taxpayers still have a say in how their dollars get spent.

[orangecrayon57]

You're not "isolated" in the sense that you portray it. You are free to have visitors at any reasonable time. The only way it "isolates" you is in the fact that you are on a college campus that may or may not be somewhat far away from your home, no different than a number of other summer programs I can think of.

[LutherSetzer]

I will have to assume from your statement that, unlike when I attended in 1982, parents can now visit during "the first two weeks" of the program. If so, that is a positive change. So I will at least give the program credit for that.