MSNBC - Presbyterian Church (USA) To Ordain Gay Clergy

[isakechaos]

this isnt something pleasant to watch as a gay. the REAL change we should be moving towards is a religionless society. religion is the cause of almost all wars, major genocides, bigotry and hate. Dont antagonize it by joining them

[gariadara]

listen to yourself. I was taught that people should have the basic human right to believe as they wish and practice whatever religion they so choose. A religionless society is not something I see fitting with that ideology. Religion is NOT the cause of "almost" all wars in the breadth or humanity's history, nor is it the cause of major genocides, bigotry or hate. Not at all. That is at best reaching, at worst an invention. Religion has been intertwined with these things, but not cause.

[isakechaos]

@gariadara it IS the cause of most of them and any historian will tell you that

[gariadara]

@isakechaos Any historian with an agenda, whom quickly no one will really listen to. Look, the driving force of war had always been land, money, conquest, and fight for resources. And the Holocaust was NOT motivated by religion but racial hatred long embedded in Europe. Religion was just the excuse. Many historians argue the real driving force of the crusades was wealth, religion just gave people excuse.

[isakechaos]

@gariadara you just contradicted yourself in your last line, THE EXCUSE WAS RELIGION, it doesnt matter if they were doing it for wealth or not, THEY DID IT IN THE NAME OF RELIGION, exactly why most anti gay people campaign, FOR WEALTH but IN THE NAME OF RELIGION. and all historians agree religion is the cause of most wars and plenty of people listen to it, because its truth

[gariadara]

@isakechaos No. Let's stop here now. Obviously you've already arrived at your conclusion. I don't think you can back up the claim that "ALL" (that is EVERY single academic in existence) historians assert without qualm that all religion in the world is the cause for most of the wars in all of human history (at least 10 thousands years of it, wherein organized religion make up only about 10% of the time).

[gariadara]

@isakechaos Studying motivations of war is the job of the Sociologist, technically. Motivations of war include economic, resource-based, behavioral, class/subclass conflict, etc. Religion and ideologies are considered SECONDARY factors used to legitimize violence, and will not directly lead to violence themselves without a societal phenomenon known as Youth Bulge (presence of large number of male youths in a population without sufficient employment opportunities).

[gariadara]

@isakechaos rather, religion, or any form of ideology is easy to be utilized to establish a type of mob mentality for the masses, this is evident in China's Cultural Revolution, and KMT and Communist Party struggles wherein as many lives as the Holocaust's death toll was sacrificed not in the name of any religion or god, but in the name of Anti-God/Gods Marxist ideas. I suggest some famous sociologists for reading: Jack A. Goldston, Gary Fuller, Samuel Huntington, Lawrence H. Keeley.

[gariadara]

@isakechaos regardless of that, no CURRENT mainstream religion OTHER THAN ISLAM is actually causing any genocide, wars, or any such thing. And my point still stands: Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Assembly, Freedom of Religion. These are basic rights no form of ideology should take away. Until such times, when God Herself shows up to tell us to sod off.

[TheArcaneSanctum]

@isakechaos

I do not think a religious free world is realistic perhaps a non dogmatic one.

Contrary to popular belief religion is not the cause of these horrible things.. ignorance is and uses religion as an scape goat to commit such acts.

Religion did not cause almost all wars, when you look at the history of wars on earth religious wars are the minority.

I would suggest investigating such things before making such claims.

The real problem is a lack of knowledge in our world.

[isakechaos]

@TheArcaneSanctum Religion is a lack of knowledge, so yet again religion is the problem in our world, blinding following a faith. and yes religion is the cause of most wars, even if its a scapegoat its religion that is the cause. Im tired of the "few people who use religion as a scapegoat to do evil things" if one person uses it in a bad way the whole ideal is deplorable to me

[TheArcaneSanctum]

@isakechaos Again I stress; Study before you speak on such things history gives us a clear picture of all of this.

In the History of man 7% of all wars had anything to do with religion, you realize that means that 93% of wars in our history had nothing to do with religion right?

While I would agree that most religions cause mind control and promote intellectual slavery, I think there are far more pertinent issues in this realm.

[VoteYou]

the girl is too cute.

[shenadoa]

The only reason churches are after 2000 years "seeing the light" is becaise they are loosing their customers. It never ceases to amaze me how God with his eternal truths just keeps changing his mind.

[jawj4291]

@shenadoa you are mestaking they are loosing funding not customers, customers means they provide a service or item for the money they get. They do not. They ask for people to give to the church claming it is giving to god, not true. God does not need the money.

[shenadoa]

@jawj4291 I should have used the term "victims"

[isakechaos]

@shenadoa no kidding, when is the majority of the world going to realize religion is crap? i cannot believe anyone gay would even want to be apart of a church

[miasmablk]

what's more taboo gay christians or black conservatives?

[Coffeeisnecessary]

@miasmablk Black conservative.

[ukendcx2000]

@Coffeeisnecessary absolutely. Blacks have bought liberal rhetoric hook, line and sinker. smh. and I say this as a Black Man. Black conservatives are definitely more taboo. Then again, a gay Black conservative that just happens to be a Christian ...

[dudesonman4200]

@miasmablk

Gay christians. By being one you are directly contradicting "gods" supposed moral laws. Black conservatives are not serving in their best interests, but their contradiction isnt as strong and is based on a few hundred years of societal history, while gay christians are directly doing a 180 on what it is to be a christian as defined by the bible.

[miasmablk]

@dudesonman4200 Lol, yeah I think I'd have to agree.

[ddpl365]

@dudesonman4200 "Gay christians. By being one you are directly contradicting "gods" supposed moral laws." go watch The Bible Told Me So to learn about homosexuals in Christianity and how other people interpret God's moral laws as defined by the bible

[jawj4291]

@ddpl365 The bible has no moral laws it merly tells us how they lived and believed back then.Gays are born gay thus not imoral.

[ddpl365]

@jawj4291 you know, they talk about the exact same thing in the documentary I mentioned. It really is a great movie.

[shamz0rz]

Guys, too many of you sound just like those crazy ass fundamentalist christians. Attacking them verbally will do nothing but strengthen their resolve. The majority of christians are regular people just like you, so making a blanket statement about the entire religion is just unfair. Tolerance goes both ways, we say we want tolerance for all people, and then attack the worldwide majority religion. Live by the words we speak or else we're just as hypocritical as the "love thy neighbor" crowd.

[lotanddaughters]

Good. Christianity is for buttfuckers.

[Justwosweet]

This is an inevitability for Christianity. If a religion wants to stay relevant it has to evolve with the times. Look at your average Christians view of slavery, completely different from what they could learn from their book. Just more proof Christianity is garbage.

[gariadara]

@Justwosweet The Bible never condoned Slavery. The Tanakh (Old Testament) simply set out rules for treatment of slaves should the ancient Hebrews decide to own slaves. It no more condemns freeing slaves than it condemns Democracy (Ancient Israel was a Monarchy, God never said it was a better or worse form of government).

[Justwosweet]

@gariadara condone

1.to disregard or overlook (something illegal, objectionable, or the like).

2.

to give tacit approval to: By his silence, he seemed to condone their behavior.

3.

to pardon or forgive (an offense); excuse.

If the bible didn't condone slavery then why does it explain the rules for how it is to be conducted? What is the point in telling me that it is set out in the old testament, is that not the bible?

[gariadara]

@Justwosweet you missed my point. God as represented in the Old Testament had no interest in governing the ways his people choose to govern themselves, except for a set of symbolic and culturally and spiritually significant laws. This can be seen by the fact that Mosaic Law never instituted anything more than a religious cast of elders. When the Israelites wanted a monarchic system, God asked "what for?" But nonetheless laid down rules if his people wanted it.

[gariadara]

@Justwosweet While the Bible never outright condemned it, therefore one can infer that it takes a more or less "indifferent" attitude (NOT supportive) towards the phenomenon of human beings as property, it nevertheless laid down laws for humane treatment of said property. Slaves were often volunteers when they could not find employment in other ways and were set free after 6 years. Foreign imported slaves can be perpetual but the "masters" were commanded to treat the slaves as "brothers."

[gariadara]

Your argument probably stems from the question that if God is a loving God, why weren't there rules AGAINST the phenomenon of human beings as property. You have qualms regarding the lack of intervention towards a condition, but I can also be mad that the Bible never had any rules about helping orphans, against dictatorships (which the old monarchies technically were), ethical treatment of animals, etc. There is WORD of the Bible and the SPIRIT of the book. The former doesn't defeat the latter. 

[Justwosweet]

@gariadara There is no reason to mad at the bible, it just being an imperfect work of fiction. There is also no reason to choose to pretend that morality of any form comes from it. The church will continue to evolve and ignore it's oldest teachings and find ways to justify it's passed mistakes as an attempt to remain relevant. That's what it has always done and it isn't going to suddenly stop.

[gariadara]

@Justwosweet Again, it's not fiction when a significant amount of it is historical. It's incredibly racist and offensive to anyone who is Israeli or Jewish (by race). And exactly which "church" are you talking about? Presbyterians are only one of many churches.

[Justwosweet]

@gariadara again the teachings of the bible not in the bible change to fit modern society. Religion has no backbone.

[splicedenergy]

@gariadara You've never read the bible. 

[erginakif]

Great, now gays can brainwash people too.

[whoo689]

Finally...

Whether you're gay or not is none of the business of the church. WHO CARES if your priest or reverend is gay? I wouldn't. It's not my concern. How DARE so many "Christians" pretend like it's a real concern when it's nothing of the sort. Ooh, you're gay. big fucking deal.

And why should I care? As long as no one is being harmed or having their rights taken away, I really don't give a fuck.

[whoo689]

The people who bitch about homosexuality and claim it's a "sin" are just paranoid, fearmongering extra-nosy jackasses who don't understand the concept of privacy. They're like schoolchildren, thinking it's "icky" and shit. How does someone being attracted to the same sex affect YOU?

[whoo689]

People who are secure in their sexuality ARE NOT threatened by other sexualities! We may not be totally comfortable with or prefer certain ones, but we don't go around telling people they're "bad" or immoral for doing it.

[whoo689]

It's simply a matter of preference. THAT'S WHAT SEXUALITY IS! It's the kind of acts and relationships you prefer to get into. I fail to see how any of that could ever be "a sin." Anti-gay homophobes and bigots need to get a life.

With all the problems in the world, it takes a real coldhearted jackass to focus on gay people as "The problem."

[bemyspaced]

Jesus never closed people out of the House of the Lord.

[masticina]

The cracked wood that is called Christianity has just gotten another Crack..

Seriously nothing against Jesus but his followers are such an odd.. broken bunch at times. Well love won out that is what matters..

[popazz1]

HOT newsman!

[stephenwalls1]

On or off, one or zero. Binary can be sexy. xD

[RevRossReddick]

As a new minister in the PCUSA, I am proud of this step toward justice. And a comment for DMoD129: Your comment makes it seem as if the *only* reason for the existence of Christianity is to 'hate gays." I don't know if ANY Christian would agree with that, even "fundies." Fundamentalism is not the only way to be a Christian. Clearly, the passage of these new ordination standards suggests that Christianity has its progressives; they're simply not the ones that the media uses for it's fodder.

[DMoD129]

@RevRossReddick How much of the Bible do you have to ignore in order to be a progressive? Quite a bit from what I've read.

[RevRossReddick]

@DMoD129 : I'm not going to lie, anyone who reads the bible to inform their faith has what I call an "personal canon," which are the books/texts/stories through which you tend to view life. For example, there are understandable reasons why people with African heritage privilege Exodus. As a Presbyterian, I am bound the breadth and depth of Scripture. Yes, there are some terrible texts that get all the press, but the overarching message of Scripture is quite progressive in my interpretation.

[TheMidwestAtheist]

@RevRossReddick "anyone who reads the bible to inform their faith has what I call an 'personal canon,'..." "...in my interpretation."

Yes, you said all you needed to right there. The Great Book of Multiple Choice. Is it any wonder why there are 38,000 denominations of Christianity? You realize that may ultimately be the cause of Christianity's downfall?

[RevRossReddick]

@TheMidwestAtheist : I was being honest about what really happens w/ people & Scripture...I don't understand your "gotcha" attitude. I said what I said b/c it's true. Do you think atheists don't pick & choose which writers/thinkers they listen to? The overarching message I find in Scripture is a radically progressive one about God's love for humanity, primarily seen in Jesus' life. And, if anything, this video says Christians still have something to say to the world...we're not going anywhere.

[gariadara]

@TheMidwestAtheist Most of these denominations differ in structure of governance only. All mainline protestant denominations are acceptable and connected and interpretations are based on established academic theology. That's why in most denominations the clergy has to have some form of doctorate in theology. And one thing never changes even in Protestantism: The Nicene Creed (which unites all Trinitarian Christianity, including Catholicism with Protestantism), Sola Scriptura, and Sola Fide. 

[blainebill39]

@SuchIsLifeVideos

Ciao Bello!

Dave "Amico Mio" I just can't get over that the Church founded by the 16th Century Scottish "Firebrand" John Knox, after undergoing what must have been akin to birthing pains, has reached this conclusion! This must apply of coarse to just their "American" communion right? Or is this in fact global?

Blaine

[DMoD129]

If you don't hate gays just leave Christianity instead of keeping this violent zombie of a religion alive. The fundies got it right, it is an anti-gay religion.

[TheArcaneSanctum]

@DMoD129

The traditional and synoptic texts of the bible suggest disgust with homoerotic actions when performed by heterosexuals not those done by homosexuals that is something not even mentioned.

That being said it is irrelevant since the current scriptures are just an amalgamation of what people thought was the authentic word of GOD.

The Gnostic view is very different on this view and there are still many gnostic Christians today who uphold truth,equality even reason and logic.

[DMoD129]

@TheArcaneSanctum Umm, no. That wretched book is quite clear in saying that you're supposed to kill any man who lies with a man, not a hetero man who lies with another hetero. Try again.

[TheArcaneSanctum]

@DMoD129

While I agree the book is wretched in areas look up the passages in the original languages uses exegetical application and you will find that these specific passages do not use the word they had at the time to say homosexual to describe the sins they were discussing.

In fact if one does honest research into these passages they will find that they were deliberately mistranslated to refer to homosexual acts when the majority of them were in reality discussing temple prostitution.

[TheArcaneSanctum]

@DMoD129

Not at all in the original language it discusses them being ritualistically unclean and it suggest they shall be put to death again for temple prostitution.

Honestly I could not care less about what the bible says but it has been deliberately mistranslated by the droves of funnymentalist zombie king cultists.

[TheArcaneSanctum]

@DMoD129 Do you even know how to read hebrew or greek ?