The Flowers of the Forest by Karen Andersen and Kevin Donleavy

[junkman19571]

never trust a jock on the make......come independence they can all leave england.......hooray.....why are they known as the maccakeaneatyours......

[wurzith]

Sound,s to me like the irish rebel scum have stolen the tune !

[BillDFC]

Flodden was the only time a Scottish army marched into England in the name of the Auld Alliance.

For hundreds of years English armies invaded Scotland intent on conquest.

The massacre of Berwick in 1296 was the worst atrocity committed on these islands.

[BigChiefMullet]

Describing the English soldiers who fell at Flodden defendng their homes and families in Northern England as tyrants. Yet the invading Scots who fell were no doubt heroic? Amazing how someone can have such a black and white view of history but then again i see you are an American.

[XshortieXnixX07]

You simplify history to suit your own view of it. Both the battles faught at Flodden and Culloden are far too complex to be viewed as simply English imperialism. Ireland too finally seems to be edging towards a peace which will be just and longlasting. I hope those now gone, who dreamed of this day are resting a little more easy. This tune also, is more common to the Scots Regiments of the British Army.

[eyeries1]

True for you, I am simplifying history, as there is little room here for an in depth analysis. However, not to suit my own view. As I, and many others, believe, English Imperialism (plus the Dynastic Struggles) are the root cause of Scotland's troubles, as they are of Ireland's as well. Of course, other things factored in.. Yet at the end of the day it was English expansionism at the root of all the trouble. As for Scots Regiments, they are tools of British Imperialism like the rest

.

[CaptCymru]

It is dangerous to view pre-modern events through the lens of modern (20th/21st Century) values.

The Anglo-Scot conflict pre-dates both countries. Hadrian's Wall, built to protect Roman Britons from Pict and Scot raiders from the north, is evidence of this.

The Scot's greatest problems were the clan system and a series of weak leaders, both of which crippled their ability to plan and execute their military campaigns at the same time that strong central government was evolving in England.

[eyeries1]

A well thought out and expressed reply.

I actually would agree with you 100%. The same lack of a strong, central government, and an archaic tribal social system were problems in Ireland, and Wales as well, now that I think of it.

All fell to English expansionism, which I still maintain is the root cause (and ongoing cause) of the problems faced by the peoples of these areas. Slan go foill.

[CaptCymru]

Your conclusion is correct but incomplete; the English weren't the only "expansionists" in the game. One could fairly conclude that all the participants were alternatively invaders and invaded; predator and prey.

England's motives were often complex but the desire to survive was at least as prominent as greed.

The Scot debacle at Flodden happened after the Scots invaded England at the behest of France. For centuries Scotland was used by France as the dagger at England's back.

[inverkenny]

they never fell because of weak leaders, they fell due to sheer numbers, if you look at Scottish history we won more battles than they did but you would think we lost more, the reason being is we lost every war eventually as we only had one army each time, they could send another each time they lost, the 45 for example, if it hadn't been Culloden it would have been somewhere else, we could have lost the first one at Prestonpans but we never, we won 2-1

[CaptCymru]

In the rising of '45, the Scots initially fought against second rate troops and did well. The English army was on the continent fighting the War of the Austrian Succession.

By Culloden, it was no longer a fair contest. A medieval Scot army of clan levies under divided command faced a modern English army of hardened, disciplined veterans returning from the continent under a single, experienced commander.

After the battle of Culloden, the Scot remnants were pursued and brutally butchered.

[TrootMask]

@CaptCymru Why do folk keep getting it wrong? It was a BRITISH army that won at Culloden not English. It was a civil war - there were probably more Scots fought against the jacobites than sided with them. A great many of the famous Scots regiments were formed to fight the Jacobites. Please get it right if you must comment - it's bad enough explaining this to tourists!

[CaptCymru]

@TrootMask A fair point; after the Acts of Union in 1707 it was indeed a British Army. Cumberland's army included Royal Scots Fusiliers, the Duke of Argyle's Highland Battalion and the King's Own Scottish Borderers, all tolled, about 15% of the army's strength.

I would not characterize this rebellion as a civil war, however, although that discussion is almost academic.

[3tangle3]

@CaptCymru they stole the word british of the true brythonic cultures of the welsh and cornish(last survivors)

[nobbytang]

@eyeries1 - flodden was fought in northern england as the scottish king with 50,000 men invaded to keep the old alliance with france intact - hardly expansionism in this case as england was being invaded . I actually agree with most of your comments but the example of flodden is wrong . England had/has a far bigger population than Wales , scotland or Ireland and it was the king and the Barons in the late 1290s who wanted more lands / taxes etc

[inverkenny]

the Clan system was a very good system, so dont know what you mean there, and as for the english working classes, they suffered like the Scots and Irish, strong does not mean right, and weak does not mean wrong.

[CaptCymru]

For hundreds of years the Scots and English were evenly matched and the numbers as often favoured the Scots as not.

At Flodden, Scots outnumbered the English by 3 to 2 but the English were better led by old Thomas Howard . Each English column had a single commander while each Scot column had divided command.

The Clan system had become outmoded by Culloden and it showed.

Also, I am talking about war and motives here, not the aftermath of harsh rule.  That's a different discussion entirely.

[Lapsanglover]

My compliments! I too have often thought it very distasteful for the English armed forces to use this tune.